knocking the temperatures back here as well. really heavy down pulls orange warnings in force here. actually. so certainly something to keep an eye on as we go on through friday night is a little further east, which as we go one into sat stay, i think all parts of india could catch a shower by the weekend. ah, in a post colonial world, the scars of european imperialism run deep nowhere more so than in the democratic republic of congo, where history still shapes the presence of this rule. yet infamous insight through the eyes of a whistleblower and the patriotic military commander. witness presents this is congo, honor jesse evo, china's president says his country in russia a driving geopolitical changes globally. human being has been in moscow and

a show of support for vladimir present. and what do those changes mean for the broader wild order? and how does the west view she is? this is inside story. ah. are there and welcome to the program. i'm the start, the a tape. now present she isn't being has completed his visit to moscow. cementing his partnership with batman pearson, the chinese leaders trip came to stays after the international criminal court issued an arrest warrant for the russian president, for war crimes and ukraine. the 2 heads of state issued a joint statement, confirming their alignment on a host of issues and condemning the west and nato. they also cautioned against any steps that could push the conflict in ukraine into an uncontrollable phase. how small bar reports. oh. 2 they say it's an

alliance without limits. china and russia are expanding trade and diplomatic corporation. the 2 countries insist their relations are far from being a military and political alliance. but she jumping and redeemer, put in, share a growing concern of what they perceive to be an american dominance across the globe for the chinese leader has secured an unprecedented 3rd term earlier this month. this trip could be the moment to establish his country as an international peacemaker. there her worship gowns under. we shall always respect and abide by the un charter. we will always promote peace and also promote negotiation and discussion. a stance is always based on fairness and justice. we will always be on the side of peace. we are always on the side of dialogue. we are always on the side of his stark venus and justice literally with, with you see,

but ending war in ukraine would, may not be an easy task. china is yet to elaborate on it's 12 point piece plan merge. tim badging has called on russia and ukraine to address their security concerns without mentioning russian troops withdrawl, it's a key demand for keith. ah, the u. s. has dismissed that piece plan as a stalling tactic. in the meantime, western nations are stepping up military assistance to ukraine. miss due to the glowing ministers sla. today we learned that the minister of defense of the u. k, declared he would supply tanks to the ukraine and also uranium in rich weapons to ukraine. i think that the west will now fight russia to the last ukrainian t facing growing international isolation. ladiva put in is turning to president g jammed, being an allies largely shaved, following russian invasion of ukraine last year. after the e. u. imposed a burn on russian and as you import china stuffed in buying large quantities of tea

russian oil provide in cash struct. moscow with much needed revenue. the u. s. considers china the biggest threat to its national security of queers. b, g could be exploiting, rushes in battle, standing to expand its geo political influence. hush, balboa al jazeera. ah, ah, let's bring in our guests now. in moscow we have saga markov. he is the director of the institute of political studies and moscow. he was also a former public spokesman for president prison in beijing is henry, hugh e r one. he is founder and president of the center for china and globalization thinktank. and in washington, d. c is toby, gassy. she is a specialist and russia u. s. relations. she's also a former special assistant to president bill clinton and a former senior director for russia, ukraine,

and duration states at the u. s. national security council. a warm welcome to you all. thank you so much for joining us today. and inside story, i believe this was what the 40th time and that person and she had met. that's quite remarkable. i know they have previously celebrated birthdays together, made dumplings together and pledged their friendship without limits. sorry, i know you have been very close with present person in the past. how would you characterize the she prison relationship? why do you see it? because the shower and a much wonder putting those that see because he is managing huge. she reaches almost china, dora and char, not you develop income,

what it is very much because we really like that. and we can move out if she compare what we're doing, which is where we just live, such as buying down or so it's a macro. and all, i'm going to say very quiet, you more out of reach why and sides of each year throughout the country. it's more but 100 percent on the market. you paid? also, russia and china, most of them on the restaurant,

movies and b calisha all much, all i want to bring in henry here because you say that this is also about countering some kinds of aggression from the west. and i see more language has come out of this visit, very similar to what we saw in february last year. and that was what 20 days, just before the russian invasion. now they've signed a joint statement. title, deepening the comprehensive strategic it partnership of coordination in the near era and stress settling the ukraine crisis through dialogue. that's a lot to cover in less than 3 days. and i noticed that ukraine actually only gets a mention and point 9 of 9 henry for basing. is this about ukraine, or is this more about a push for this so called new era? well, i think that actually a person's shoes visit to is, is very timely. and of course, trying to just finish to section we got the new, you know, terms of the government to slowing and new state council. so traditionally,

you know, china and russia, john, good relations, are they have the longest orders in the war? i mean, so, so that's always a tradition of the, you know, the have both countries in good terms. but i think more significantly is that this time as a whole ministry spokesperson mansion, this is a piece mission. just before presence, just visit a form is between gong actually spoke to you claim for minister and also a chance to talk to him about the wall. yes. mad you credit for the music or where i was the immunity conference attending the company as well so. so i think there's a lot of dialogue already and also on top of that child on just publishing is a 12 point apiece position paper. i got the online channels piece plan for, for you kind russian conflict. and also of course, are just broke to deal between is it raw and the sun woods

on, on a piece as well? it is about the ties. and during this time, the charter went in to just to understand both of those positions to really a talking to person put in and of course find out what, what's going on. and i think, you know, it's really good of course, well managed by other religions issues too. so i want to tell you that plan in more detail in just a minute. but i do want to bring in to be here because from the language that we've had in these joint statements, and these are really hefty things, a huge amount of language that both foreign policy starts and had to agree on in minute detail. it seems that the biggest thing that basing and monica have in common is the desire to counter us dominance. toby, how is all of this being viewed in washington? henry says this is a piece mission. well, i may be in peace mission, but for china heads a piece mission for a piece of the russian economy for a lot of russian energy and for many things that are much more important to china than the fate of ukraine. and the alternative reality that we see in the kremlin

and a meeting like this does not reflect the fact that russia is a declining power in terms of china and china. his biggest fear is that russia will not be able to handle the war in ukraine and it will lead to instability. china's fear has always been an instability on the part of many different countries. and i really think you're seeing a change in many relationships. just remember what's happening in the room is, is important. image is important for both public, certainly for prudence, public having been declared a war criminal last week and having closed, having called memorial, which is an organization dedicated to exposing soviet eye problems in the 1900 thirty's and forty's. i have enclosed it this week. this meeting is important to show that these 2 leaders can talk to each other, but make no mistake about it. china is a very clear agenda. china is

a rising power, and russia is just barely holding on. and i think it's really important that, that, that russia's main leverage over china is the fear that russia will be unstable. and china does not want that doesn't want it because they have a long border and also because of the u. s. concerns but this toby lading did expand, but i really wish i'm not in a minute. i want to touch on something that you just spoke about that this level of instability as you say, a hugely long border. let's throw this to survey and i want to take upon a little bit. this chinese piece plan is 12 point piece plan and has been criticized in many places including in washington, but not being a road map to peace for not being concrete enough. how is it being viewed and moscow in moscow? this chain is curse because it's not so much for him,

but more of a future that is additional interesting about some of the concept because from our point of view, each panels fuel the hall to reinstall ration people from all you could say. busy people were really interesting about that because this war would be, this is, this is what, not what you paid more between the united states of america. and if you like me to give you a completion of the crate from 2000 what when united states electric or you creeds and there was a dictatorship and will be and you put it in your, in your, your process. so we did it. this was bought some time telling me it's

not so much fun, but more reasonable now time chinese principals didn't come here because i thought you did it. we did, you see research was that you're going to say it was all there was even going to was this, why were we will have to come so does that mean video or was that event? if i see you, i'm going to come on it and i want them to tell me here because you say the americans have no interest in ending the war. toby, do you think that i'm can go go for ok. i mean i, the chinese very good. the chinese came forward with principles because the united nations also has principles and

a trying to really care about principles. it wouldn't have abstained on the a. i'm a resolution and the security council on the war. those were the principles that was the you and that's the form. the chinese don't really want to do the hard work of making peace in ukraine and it's really, it's far from them. you transfer from them. they have many, many in use in asia. i can understand that. and so, for the russians to think that the chinese are going to play any large role, i mean, imagine the conversation where she has to tell prudent what zelinski has told to him about russia's policy. i don't see this happening. this is not a chinese chinese role. well, i think the chinese have their own insurance, let her know about it. and then i think grocer to our guests all day saying in terms of the role that china hopes to play here. henry, i'm curious about where china seas this conversation going and, and where this desire to become, such a media is coming from,

you mentioned the deal between iran in saudi arabia. they obviously trying to become a bit of a broker in the global stage, but specifically it seems on issues where their own interests at stake. is this about reputation building for she or doesn't go beyond that was suddenly a risk, the chance repetition, of course, and charles trying to promote the talks on peace and altogether, i think right now, you know, as we hear that, you know, russian ukraine's rushing is a conflict about the b. ha, you look behind that, behind you. okay, you got my toe, you got to western countries. so china is actually busy talking to other to present good. but also to western alina. some of you know, we were having the shells came here that they said ok, there's no nuclear weapon should be used, but also we were having present the french press, the marco's come in. you taliban used to come in a spanish primary. come in european president joe coming here,

jermel for mr. coming over. so you have a host of the people have a stake in the, in the fight that actually talking to the chimes so. so i think that we probably also thought leaders, we talked to last week at some point time. so i think, you know, channels position really though is more impressed and we'll say a number of little things to china. i wonder, is there perhaps more space now for china to act as a mediator given the timing, we've now seen that the west winds and issued for peace and by the i c. c, that could potentially limit his ability to travel or to dialogue with other leaders. toby, do you think that that creates more space for beijing? well, i think beijing, i'm out of stop looking at what's happening in nato and look what happened yesterday. the japanese prime minister was in boucher, was in ukraine. so i think the world around china is changing and away maybe the china is not too happy about i increase military spending in asia. so the consequence of this war are offered. china are very great and you know, china,

you talk about the iran saudi agreement. remember, there were talks for 2 years. and then china came in at the last minute and broke the agreement. these things take a long time. i don't think china is going to invest in peace in, in, in ukraine. but it is very interested in having russia are remain a stable country, a weaker country than china for sure. economically in the agreements that are signed are very much in china's interest. i fuel an oil and gas to china, and i'm trying to do business in russia. but just remember the u. s. interest in talking to china is going to focus on one thing very clearly. do not send weapons to ukraine. i once again, it's in the weapons in a, in a minute. it's very different ball game. but one of the things you mentioned that

is the very, very comprehensive agreements that we've seen. and it goes well beyond the kind of broader economics that we would necessarily expect. i notice that it, it also now says that the, the main stays on broadcast as of the 2 countries are going to be sharing content. now. so again, i know you know, how powerful a cultural voice influence is what, what's that's aimed at here as sharing, excuse me, sharing was at staring at sharing content so that the too broad cost is from the 2 different countries. the state board cost as have agreed to share content and let me throw this to so again, i'm curious about what you think they're trying to aim out here in terms of trying to create a broader cultural influence to counter the west. perhaps a, or because

a, if you a 0 a nation, say you're not here to read your to click the right. we have a rough, rough and just a little is a lease a be in the 1950s. i mean, we are listen to this. i mean, listen to what we're hearing the words. it's like, it's like a bad dream. it really is. and i don't think china wants to be part of this bad dream. china's relations with the west are just too too,

too broad and economics matter too much, sir. game keep sending china all your oil and gas, so be very happy. they can re sell it to europe as they've been doing and make money. this is a russian right, that is, i want to make sure that henry is also part of this conversation and getting the chinese point of view here. because as you say, economics is critical. you mentioned earlier that there was a speculation about whether or not china might supply arms to russia in this conflict. that's obviously very fine line. i know china has said there are no forbidden areas of cooperation, but that was before the russian invasion, henry, this is a really, really, i guess find balancing out here. how's that going? well, well, this time we haven't heard them no limit to the talking this time, but i certainly am in the economic and trade relation as always be improving. china

wants to maintain good relations, result was always papers. of course, why should be the largest neighborhood john suddenly wants to maintain good relation, but same is true is though is india with japan with. 6 is everyone is just now, i think china and russia and you know that a share, a lot of, you know, same as, as, of, as a sadly, been both bashing the very hard by the us. particularly china, china usually even put a, b, b, b for russian as you, as the number one driver. so, so i think that that is the case that we want to maintain a global un type of all other than to get all the counties has to be really a hybrid. it have its own right to develop. and i'm a very clear here. and when you don't see china at any point wanting to send weapons or arm ration anyway, because then it would potentially face the same sanctions that russia is facing. what's on a server many times, i mean charlotte device minister last your 7 shandra dialogue chunk does not

provide any material. beatrice bo to russian and china only provided the human italian aids or you can so. so i don't think john has of iris chon has actually been repeatedly saying they provide no military to, to, to the, to the regime for these fighting this war. so. so i think that is of the 1st year, i think i've rolled up on that on the time last year. at same time one was bogart. we will, we want to quote a, you and you know, 7 party tom, that's p 5. or, you know, you quit and with you less of a p some it, i'm in china, the china is the only country and all that is ready to propose in peace dogs. and you know, we have to add this by piece talk about the continuous fighting henry, i think you'll, it's really important that we sit down. tasha, you speak there. a about a global order. and one of the things that i found very interesting coming out of this visit now see in russia was that person seems to have endorsed the chinese

again as the currency of choice over the us dollar or the euro. and he's now, i believe encouraging the developing world to also use it in its dealings with russia. survey. from the russian perspective, what does this multi perla, economic order look like? russia be a month multiple or united states and europe should they respect multi ideals of all, also different nations right? to, to do for them to come and get different videos. i'm not going to differently. so the role of it and of course you're not to say to be one of these historical tear.

why would be that way? our job, all right? cycle which is a program and you gave a broader realignment here. so again, you were saying that this is about diversity wanting a multi polar. well, for that reason toby, i want to ask you because i wonder if the view from washington is that this is now becoming 2 blocks. the western europe, perhaps in the west, broadly on, on one side, russia and china on the other. is that the view and where does that leave the developing world? i think that's of you. i think rush is developing a war economy and increasing its army, sending more troops to ukraine, controlling society. china has no interest in a war economy. the economic model of russia has nothing to offer chinese development. i. it's hard to have an international currency based on,

on china and china is guaranteed china uses the dollar. china wants trade with europe. that's one of the reasons they have good relations with beller is because that see opening to your they're not giving up on europe because of ukraine. that is, that is for sure. so i to, i really don't see the world divided that way. i think the chinese leadership is very, very aware of china's rise. and when you have a rising power, you can afford to be a little more flexible. it's when you're on the defensive and you feel the world is really against you, which is how russia feels, that you make mistakes. and i really worry about that because china doesn't mind having a dependent roger or a weak russia. but it does not want to russia that is not stable. and that is why this meeting was so important because it shows china and russia together as stable countries. this is for a domestic audience. so it's a lot of, yes,

i didn't. and something that you just said that this idea that russia is on the defensive and that china perhaps isn't. but we have been hearing some quite interesting language come out of china present. she has been criticizing the u. s. is and i quite hear all round containment and supplement and suppression of china. henry, that's some very deliberate cold war language there. well, it was through the cold war a beads actually i'm about us, it's practicing or whatever fall the chinese company. i'm sorry to lose you when we have a trips all closer, you know, building nuclear rings and that we have quad and we have a path. we have 5 eyes and nato's. i mean, china is, is really pursuing economic opposition. jobs to about on the i b in our sab cpg, p d, r and all those things so, so i see a different model of a pursuit because the us really a. busy miniaturization, and of course,

the secure eliasis. charles was 3 more economical lies is included was china, africa, china, our channel, larger american, china, central asia. so i think, you know, in the ad but economical as you will have to go back to the basics. the economic globalization will prevail because that's really bought bread and butter of everybody and i, we have to, we will see. so, you know, the banks collapsing the u, as in europe, we will have to really come to the basics. i'm not really fighting this geopolitical or let's, let's go back, let's stop the war and let's really pursue piece that they come. amicable position . not perfect, but let's see, let's see has on is turned in the w h o m, and that's walk together. that's most important. and also what was the you quinn, russian conflict. let's get you 7 know, 5 plus the use you can to talk. and lots of of, you saw me. i mean the, you umbrella, that's make things move or not,

not really have to start on that very interesting. it does feel like i'm sorry, we're gonna have to leave it there that, but i do feel like we're seeing a while now where economics is perhaps trumping politics here. we'll have to leave it there for now that thank you to all of our guests. same uncle henry here, wang and teddy, gassy, and thank you to for watching. you can see this program again any time by visiting our website that's al jazeera dot com. and for further discussion to get to our facebook page that the facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. remember, you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is at a j inside story. for me, an associate hey, and the whole team here, and uh huh. 5, ah ah

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