in the countries supply as well with lessons, this is inside store, the hello that are on james bay's nicaragua, who's on the international court of justice to order germany, to stop supplying is row with weapons immediately. and all these button is complicit in genocide taking place and also the case joins to others involving israel already before the i c, j. nicaragua. his case is more broad drawing on both the genocide and geneva conventions and is notable for being the 1st to involve 2 countries, not directly involved in the alleged atrocities governments around the world. well and definitely take no assist. germany is the 2nd largest weapons to plot to israel off to the united states. so what is this case mean for other countries that contribute to israel's extensive military network could 3rd policies be held

accountable for enabling a genocide? we'll discuss all of this without panel of guess in just a moment. but 1st this report, i'm alexandra bias. 80 years after the holocaust, germany is being accused of facilitating genocide, nicaragua, calling on the international court of justice to stop all german arms, exports is real. it argues the really army is using those weapons and ammunition against palestinians in gaza and by extension. berlin is enabling acts of genocide . the north of the genocide convention, which are part of customary international law imposed the obligation into a space to enter it take to prevent genocide. this obligation arises from the moment that that state becomes aware that genocide might be committed and they can be no question that germany is evident from the preceding miss was well aware. he's

well aware of at least the seriously risk of genocide being committed. germany is the 2nd largest armed supplier to israel after the us and its exports include torpedoes, submarine, parts at the tank, weapons and military protective gear. berlin recognizes the i. c j's jurisdiction. the us does not. lawyers for germany have dismissed nicaragua as accusations as biased and say berlin is doing all it can to fulfill its obligations to both palestinians and israelis. germany only supplies on the basis of detail scrutiny. the scrutiny, only respect but far exceeds the requirements of international law. on exports that take into account the security threats. israel is facing in particular, immediately after 7 october. at the same time, germany supplies arms and other military equipment to israel is subject to

a continuous evaluation of the situation on the ground of the landmark case joins 2 others currently before the un top court. south africa accused israel of committing genocide in gaza, which the court found was plausible. and the i, c. j has accepted a motion by the un general assembly on the legality of israel's occupation of the palestinian territories. now, nicaragua, his case could have consequences for governments around the world can countries that are not committing atrocities directly, still be held responsible for them. alexander buyers out a 0 for inside story. the. let's dig deeper into the significance of this case and won't have any difference it'll make with all guests today from wiesbaden and germany. we joined by mateus goldman, a senior research fellow of the max planck institute for comparative public law,

an international law in haifa, deanna bhutto, published and you know, and advocates of the policy and cause and in new york. kenneth ross is a visiting professor at the princeton school of public and international affairs. he was the executive director of human rights watch. thank you for joining me. all of you. we have an admin panel of lawyers today. i'm not a lawyer can vote. so let's start in layman's language and your view. how strongly is this case? well, it's based on a very simple promise, which is that you should not be arguing. a government that is community war crimes, let alone plausible genocide as the international court of justice has called it. now there's actually a precedent for that. she may remember back to the library and president charles taylor, she was convicted of aiding and abetting war crimes. the atrocities and neighbors fairly young, because the army and abusive revelled there, and he's currently serving a 15 year present term in

a brother's printer. so there is precedent for now. the internet for court of justice is a civil court of the criminal court. but it is this promise that you shouldn't be army a country, and military that's committing atrocities is you don't really simple and legally straightforward but task. let me ask you about the comments from the nicaraguan and bassett, a who opened the case for nicaragua. now to be clear, you don't represent the german government here, you all german in the german lawyer. he said there is no question the germany was well aware and is well aware of at least the serious risk of genocide being committed. what do you make of that basic case? what james, i think it's a very good proposition to stop the case. and i think that the co rockwell has a made a very strong presentation in the sense that they gave us have, they displayed the problem, is that many people around the world have with the weapons deliveries and,

and it is rather in, in the current conflict and so i would say that in some, to some extent, the readings post the top of the standards off of the western world. and that is from a moral point of view, a very strong case, which they made. whether that is going to be a successful case before the international court of justice is a little bit different because the international court of justice is bound to by rules of procedure. and you know that the substances international legal provisions applicable in the case. and in that regard, the qualification is that it's quite an indirect way in which nicaragua is challenging germany's acts. so it's actually criticizing, or it's suing germany for acts to which germany contributes,

which however have been committed by is right. and this indirect way off, texting the conflict of bringing the conflict to the court may ultimately have an impact on the success. often to correct was case, even though many people would agree that there has been violations of international humanitarian law. and even though the question whether a dental site is on folding, is a, is still a pending in a different case before the court to deanna you are a lawyer to inform a legal advisor to the palestinian liberation organization, the p l. o. but actually i'd like to start with you taking off your legal hat and tell me what the palestinians make of this case all day following it. what do they make it? they're not following it as closely as they were following. obviously the south african case, but they are indeed following it. and there's a reason for that. it's because of how students have tried everything. we've tried

diplomatic means. we've tried to push for statehood. we've tried practically everything and the world time. and again, has fail pulse students. and so now how students are looking and saying, is it time that the systems that particularly the europeans have been wagging their fingers out us for, for decades, saying that we should be using legal systems. it's time to test those legal systems and see whether the law actually does apply to israel or whether israel is above the law. so people are indeed following it, and this really is a test of this, along with the other cases, of course is a test of the legal system and the robustness of the legal system. is it a system in which it applies to some countries, or is it a system and which it applies to all? and it could applies to all that we must start seeing that israel is held accountable through sanctions, through arms and barcode, and through other mechanisms as well. can let me ask you a question that when i was doing the research for this program puzzled me a bit,

which is why is nicaragua not suing the united states? and i did a lot of reading about this. it seems to go back to the reagan administration, on the case i can involving the correct q a versus the us. an off to that, the us decided not to recognize some of the i c j's jurisdiction. can you explain that a bit more bit back to that, to me, it for me, please. a james, it's a, it's a bit that it's a bit the way that the united states ratified the genocide convention, but to put it there is simply the u. s. has not submitted to the jurisdiction of the internet part of the justice of a blanket basis, but only case by case meaning it without the consent to be sued by negative off, where it's germany has consented in a blanket based that garage would consume, in this case in germany with stock. so that's why germany, the 2nd part is terms for maya was sued rather than yet the united states now give it to me at some point in just a short mentioning that, you know, neutral walkway is a core plaintiff here is a lead dictatorship is one of the most repressive countries in latin america um

that you're relevant to the merits of the change. but it's unfortunate that nigrama, what's the plaintive, you know, what's the word of the truth about the german defense you? because the german wireless kind of put forth 3 arguments not been a very good um one of them was like whole support probably. and last but yeah. who cares if you're also army israel as in bonds and star scoutreach don'ts um, you know, 2nd it said israel to documenting more products, you know, which is just laughable. mean, anybody can see that it is on the 3rd that really goes to the heart of the german state today. it's a, it's a stop resolved. so the reason for the state as a result of the nazi responsibilities of all cost, to support israel and that in $90.00, which is the long last in a box. but less than a call call should be that you oppose atrocities you impose world crimes. whoever commits an, even after by israeli government, rather than that, you support these rarely government,

even if it's committing what crimes and possible just it's the wrong to ask your take on that. you're the gentleman on the panel, give us your view of the historical context. and it's ken site says that he believes that germany's in the long, the wrong less than a deputy. this is a valid argument to be made. there is uh, quite a bit of debate i would say at the moment whether at this position this policy possession of the drum of government, that the security of israel is a part of germany's reason off state is that an interest in should still be maintained in particular, if it is understood as a kind of blanket support for whatever it is read us. i think you could see over the last couple of weeks that the germans government has tried to at least publicly articulate it's concerned for the military and suppression. they've got that

several times and of course ultimately that will, it will impose the question, to what extent germany will on condition that lead support is read and at some point that will also raise the question, to what extent one can co op trade with israel in a military respect deanna this like the south africa case is like the go on for very long time, but i think nicaragua, probably like sites africa, kaz about the immediate measures the cold puts in place what a cold, the provisional match it is. now that calling for germany to immediately suspend it's a to is rel, particularly the military, the military, almost shipments, but also important. it says it must resume its support and financing of unreal, unreal being the un agency that is the main humanitarian agency operating cause or how important is that the only way that aide at this point in time can be

effectively delivered in the gaza strip is through those bodies that have had a history of delivering that age and that is underway. and the fact that we saw that immediately the day after the, the order for provisional measures came out. that israel made these false allegations against underwater allegations that have not been proven. and for which there's been no investigation and immediately be saw that countries cut off aid. it was a means by which israel was able to overshadow the provisional measures decision and turn, turn people's attention to a different issue. now i think it's important to bear in mind is one has not complied with the provisional measures order that came out in january. and it continues to be in violation of not only that, but of the other demands as well for a cease fire. and you name it, so this request that israel, that to the germany, not only stop giving weapons to israel, but also resume aid is a means through

a backhanded way of actually giving support to palestinians at a time when israel has made it clear that they intend to carry out genocide and they are in fact carrying out genocide as well as stating that germany and it's a submission in the court said it was the biggest supply to canada to renee to the o. p t. that's the technical to him occupied palestinian territory. and is germany's been continuing to supply at 8 even now, including ad drops and on that point, perhaps as well as listening to what one of the nicaragua and the law is daniel below set. it is indeed a pathetic excuse to the past, hit publish genuine children, women and men and goss onto provides for many tabby and aids. including 2 ad drops on the one hand and to furnish the weapons and committed to every equipment that used to kill. and then the 8th them and to kill also for many to be an age because

as most recently evidenced by the missile, i tech against vehicles and vehicles, a real central kitchen. on the other hand, what do you think of that can? well, he's completely right, and i would add to that, which is that the air drugs are really a drop in the bucket. everybody recognizes that the only way to mediate large scale starvation in casa is super rivers, by truck. but the same is really already that germany is, army is obstructing that age. it's reading interests and drafts. but it's imposing these inspection machines which force trucks to wait, you know, after 3 weeks, many of them don't get true. what all of it is being, it's make it a stream we difficult to distribute a we thank god, the honor of writing. he says that one wrong is with its $30000.00 employees, is the only agency capable of really doing mass distribution. then gossip is what it was trying to shut that down because you know, a near 12 people imagine,

but i approve participated in the october 7th attack. they were all either dismissed or 2 of them had died. so i'm redid everything occurred with those calls people. but usually it's on opportunity here. it is, had a vendetta against on row for decades, because it sees on right as the way the palestinian refugees continue to hold true return to israel. so that's not under is doing. you don't have any record even though their, their balance. they recognize whether i'm resent or not. they want to return to their ancestral. so whether or not there's, i'm wrong. but here's, you know, despite knowing that it's aggravating starvation has been on this then data against tom wrong and well, germany resumed funding up on ro, elsewhere in the region. it continues not the fund and in gaza. we're henri is the key to a repeating potential deanna. i know you like all of our panel. i've been watching the developments in the hage, on monday. nicaragua is case on tuesday. germany is response. tell me in terms of

the whole case, how much is this new legal ground? and could that be legal precedent to it's hard for me to say because i have a fear, i fear that what the court is going to do instead is wait for the larger case in relation to south that south africa about forward to wait to deal with that 1st that's, that's my fear. and so it's hard to say it is important to bear in mind though, and both of my co panelists have said this very eloquently, there is a responsibility, not just on israel to not carry out genocide, but there's also responsibility on 3rd states as well to prevent genocide from happening as well. and this case speaks about the idea of prevention of genocide. we already know what israel's doing. it's made its intentions very clear. we see the actions on the ground. we see the forest starvation. we see everything that

it's doing. and now it's really imperative for the world to act, whether the court takes the that same route and says, yes indeed, we're going to be issuing some measures. it is entirely different matter, but it is important for the world to understand that it, that it, this isn't just upon israel to stop genocide. it also requires that other countries around the world, every country around the world act and make sure that how citizens are not on are not subjected to this genocide. the problem with that much i asked is, is we've already seen the cool act with this provisional meshes twice with regard to the south africa case they were, they reacted and then they came back again and said, you're still not doing it. but the court's rulings are legally binding all they not . but the problem is it doesn't have any sort of enforcement mechanism. what you know to and send it to be legally binding doesn't mean necessarily that you have to be able to send troops or a police force to enforce them. otherwise,

it would be for not and to be legally binding kind of consequences at so countries, for example, they might have to pay references if they violate internationally the rules at some point. and that could be enforced by governments that order by, you know, ultimately by and palestine, which in this case is the party to, to these obligations like the obligation for respect committee. terry law, the obligation not to commit jump, general side are old. and there are ways of enforcing these uh reparations, even though that can be a lengthy process. but that doesn't mean at all is that it's a, it's taught to be relevant. moreover, i would say that in the case in which germany is being sold and as one of the yeah, the. ready one of the largest economic powers, but also a political power at least to in europe. if germany gets a um,

an order to respect certain conditions. and if it does seem to be in violation of that order, it's a reputation of damage of sorts. so should that happen? germany would have to reasons to respect it because otherwise you'd kind of go around and base your foreign policy on the premise that you're respecting international law, which is one of the things you know, the basic tends it's that germany is having here on the one have its historical responsibility on the other hand it's, it's meant to international i to build a credit. but for the policy, which might be important for many different things, it needs to respect international i or at least needs to be able to make a possible case for respect international and you can't do that any longer. is the international court of justice is telling you that you are by election. okay, let's have a quick look at where israel is guessing its weapons from germany is the 2nd largest though. just provider of arms to israel, accounting for 30 percent of

a one. it's weapons impulse, the us is by far, its largest supply. it gives a 0 annual military aid with $3800000000.00. last year, germany increased to the risk, nearly 10 fold to $354000000.00. most were approved approved and the image at optim off of how much is october the 7th attack on southern israel since 2015. the u. k. is contributions amount to more than half a $1000000000.00 and include components for f. so he 5 fight to jets. also since 2015 canada hasn't moved to equipment with $84000000.00 to israel before it suspended exports. in february 10, canada, yes, belgium. it's really the netherlands and spain. they're all countries that have suspended or restricted themselves to israel. all we slo, leasing is rails of the pipeline to weapons drawing up. i mean, james, yes. and no. other governments are slowly ending the supply of arms,

but by far the way the most important supplier is, you know, that is the united states. and joe volume has been reluctant to take that stuff. this also comes back to your piracy, you know, an international court of justice ruling is binding. israel is, you know, legally required to confine with the precautionary measures. truth wide possible genocide. it hasn't done that. one way to force compliance would be through the un security council that requires continuing with the when the rest of each of the other would be simply for powerful governments like the united states. to say, we're going to stop the military, we're going to stop the arms sales on to okay. okay. well let me also bother you. let me ask you specifically about the us ken right now because we had at the end of last week, 37 members of congress including the full mouth speaker, nancy pelosi write a letter saying that if the, the in light of the reason to strike against aid was because we believe it's on justifiable to prove to approve weapons transpose. there was something called the

lee, he lost the former senator patrick leahy. you put those lawyers in place who then named off to says the us is now breaking the little is all things and you will view changing now in the us or not. yes, james, in the sense that there is mounting pressure. unbind be the right thing to condition sort of the military need on sales, and, and to israel's bombing, and starving and pals to needs to go. he's in casa, so there's tons of pressure there. she certainly, you know, would be within the law to do that. she's just resisting, and it's a bit of a puzzle why that is part of it is he seems to start thinking israel back in 1967 when it was david surrounded by the why and that the combined europe armies. you know, certainly it's just that, you know, he's thinking about this coming election in november and it's focused, you know, on the move middle, the handful of independence and the 6 wing states. and it's basically taken for granted the progressive side of the democratic party. that's beginning to change

with the michigan primary. what are a large number of uncommitted voters suggested that you know, some democrats might just stay home and not vote at all, you know, buying something on the truck. if they don't go for anybody that's effectively about the trip. so he's taking that for granted. that said, because of these mounting american fashion to stop eating and readings one primes this possible genocide in gaza. the behind is under pressure to the right thing, and we know that in this conversation just last week, and that's an yahoo. she sort of begin understand that maybe it's a white in the future. you actually change will be affected if i give you that have not to do can change, but it's still very bushy. there still was not any explicit conditionality impose, i mean military aid in the onsite, but task, let me ask you how all things changing in terms of the public discourse. in germany, i saw there was a group of 600 gym and civil 7. so again, wrote a petition saying that is rather as committing crimes in gauze,

in contradiction of international law. and therefore in contradiction to the constitution, do you notice a change in germany? now? i did notice a change of gemini, you know, i think that immediately after october 7 and there was a lot of solidarity. and it was, it's rare, i think there was still certainly derek in particular for, you know, the victims of these attacks for the hostages. but criticism is very surprising. i, i notice at least in parts of the german public that we increasingly have a more yeah, just understanding us is rabbits at which means that's and we don't take mid time. yeah. was position that is the government's position in which and you know, quite problematic, administers, are assembled at least to some extent. and we don't take that's to be and the to be on at the end. all of is that we might look nice that there's a plurality of us and it's right there so that there has been lots of

demonstrations in the tele be sent all around. is that actually on and much of that is also perceived in germany. and so people are increasing be it seeing that, you know, there's, there's not one clear it's, it's very difficult to put yourself on one side of this conflict given how it is unfolding. and that, of course, has also an impact on how jeremy to should act in particular, in respect of the weapons it, at the courts today, germany was trying to make the argument that it is not delivering weapons that could be lee. so in a sense, you know, not the board weapons in the very narrow sense with what you can shoot. it was only delivering equipment. and 2nd, that to its delivery is had decreased or it's, um, it's, uh, it is friends of permits for weapons exports have it decreased since october, and that's a long valid arguments to make. but what i wonder is, can you really deliver any weapons in the current situation as opposed to october

and where many people ask themselves? and if there is any other way of providing human, terry and h to got south other then to a ceasefire. so that is the responsibility that many people now see very clearly, and they also think about germany's long term prospect of maintaining it's and it's stopped as it's standing as a, you know, a and a lot respecting country as well. okay. i do in see see changes here. okay, thank you very much to all i guess today, my task goldman deanna bhutto. i'm kenneth ross and thanks to you too for watching for more coverage on the cases before the i c j plus background analysis of the war ongoing. so please visit our website out. is there a don't com? if you have comments on the list, you can post them on facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a j inside story, or find his own ex, look for at a inside story for me, james space and the scene here in town hall, please stay safe,

bye for now. the why have american evangelicals become his real strongest back, or is us president joe find the right to stand with israel with no red line? as long as us support continues, is there anything that can stop is real? solve on concept, from going on in? definitely a quizzical look at us politics. the bottom line, the

fast lane to 2 weeks. so the total no content rama time is a time of nancy transformation worship, reward for every good deed is multiply by 70. it also brings nicely to the millions of people around the world to us suffering traps, injury to conflict, devastating disasters, and abject poverty. donate use a cat to human appeal. now to help save lives and transform communities. the

the, [000:00:00;00] the, you're watching mentors are a lie for my headquarters in delphi and tell you, navigate, here's what's coming up in the next 60 minutes. palestinians across the gaza strip are marking the end the phenomenon as the war continues. german who's doing its utmost to live up to its responsibility. he said he both these really and the palestinian people. germany rejects accusations,