behind the scenes story of norway se will, and the oslo accords, they wanted to have what the prize ability and reveals how the secret negotiations were skewed. this room decided to folks went to talk to terms of the negotiations and why they're still far from delivering. and forth was the price of what was on, on germany, denies supplying as well with weapons of war, yet is one of the sort to supporters of israel's will. on garza, what's behind germany's position. i'm one of the long time consequences for diplomacy in the middle east. this is inside story, the hello and welcome to the program. i'm laura kyle. 80 is also the holocaust. gemini,

is accused of being complicit and is really genocide and garza the correct q. i want see international court of justice to order balance is still ministry. exports to israel. german lawyers have rejected the case as baseless unbiased. they say button as a 5th advocate for and special humanitarian know. the same time for years, gemini has declared the security at the state of israel, is that it's cool of a foreign policy. it's by raising that, as well as the opinion terms against israel brucell on garza where does that leave button's unwavering support for the jewish people. will discuss all this with all panel of guests and just a moment. but 1st, this report, alexandra buys. when germany appeared before the u. n's, top court accused of facilitating is really genocide in gaza. it's defense drew squarely on national history because you have learned from its past, lawyers argued and it had learned from the holocaust. gemini is doing its most to

live up to its responsibility. he said he both is really and the palestinian people . this explains one of the principles upon which all foreign policy with regard to own middle east issues for us. so history is the reason what israel security has been at the pull of german foreign policy, the need to atone for the killing of 6000000 jews during the 2nd world. war has made supporting israel, a historic duty for berlin. it's even described as a reason for existence in these moment give this good thoughts of life science. at this moment. germany has only one place and that is alongside is real. this is what we mean when we say the security of israel is germany is raise on that. on the i it was our own history. our responsibilities stemming from the holocaust makes it

our everlasting duty to stand up for the existence and the safety of the state. of israel schultz was the 1st floor and head of state to visit israel after the october 7th attacks by him. off germany is the 2nd largest arm supplier to israel after the united states. it's abstained for multiple un votes calling for a cease fire in gaza. and intervene in defense of israel against south africa's charges of genocide after hey, but the mounting death tool in gaza has put germany under pressure forcing it to question it's on wavering support. on recent visits to israel, the foreign minister noted the survival of palestinians is just as important as israel's national security. but you who money to the laga in gaza. the humanitarian situation in gaza is how the facts that were stuck in this dilemma must not come at the expense of causes hungry civilian population. within germany, police have clamped down on protests in support of palestine and the country

officially defines any appearance of hatred towards israel as anti semitism. but opinion polls conducted by public broadcasters in march suggests nearly 70 percent of germans believe israel's military actions in gaza are not justified up from 50 percent just a few weeks before alexander buyers. alda 0 for inside story. so let's begin all guess now and joining us from palin, as to best buy color, a member of the german parliament for alliance 90 degrees. and a political scientist in washington dc is don't come from that. and also and journalist who's a senior associate fellow at the royal united services institute and, and the demonstrative took, got a show, have a director of the alliance for justice between his wally and palestinians. he trucks the arms trade between germany and as well as a welcome to all of you

a to be as, let's start with you. what's your response? as a member of the german government to nicaragua is accusation at international court of justice that germany is complicit in the genocide of palestinians as well as member of parliament. i of course argue that we have to take any accusations that is brought up in front of the international court of justice in front of the c, j. quite serious. but when it comes to to details, i do argue as well. that's um, most of what's being brought up, but i would rather say is probably based on, on the misunderstanding and that this does not really hold of the accusations. and i think the, the, the, the presentation by our government yesterday, yesterday in the court, i'll make clear that we are taking our responsibility in terms of humanitarian

assistance. very serious. um, but also our, um, well, well, when it comes to to how we control our exports, etc. that this is very well controlled. but still of course you need to take it serious. it is after all, a pace in front of the i. c j. um, but i am pretty much sure that uh there there is a clear path where it is going to go. if i could just figure this out a little bit today as well, what exactly was misunderstood? i must think mainly when it comes to, to human cherry and aids and the, uh, which is often perceived. and then i'll reaction to, to the, the facts or the, these varieties brought out that certain members of the where in both then the terrorist attacks of the 7th of october. and after dad's of we decided that there's no not going to be any new funding. photograph from germany,

but that still means that everything that we promised was delivered and we're still one of the biggest, if not the biggest donor cellphone. right. and i think this is very important to understand that of course we're taking those expectations very serious in germany. but we, you still stick to arguments area and or to be human, terry and cause we're still well delivered. everything we promise to in, right. and we're still funding a lot of human cherry in a, throughout the other organizations. okay. all get onto the weapons aspect to the sure and just a moment the festival john, let's just look at the age aspect. so jeremy is strong, part of germany's a defense seems to be that because they do give a huge amount of aid to palestinians. it's kind of condones the supports tools as well. it was the 1st thing to say is um, but yes it is. it needs to be taken very seriously. i think its a semester all regret that germany is being brought to a quote by

a country nicaragua, whose lead to daniel looked to you guys, probably one of the sponsors and human rights. all the, any lead to that wouldn't necessarily affect the way the court looked at it. anybody is able to bring a case off. i forget both the case against his roast. a month or 2 ago, i'm going to see more more about as the global south middle ground states are becoming more sensitive, which is absolutely that right. it is absolutely true that germany does give. i've always has getting a considerable amount of aid to palestinians in gauze or in the west bank. and that said, that does not in any way minimize the question of germans problems. germany's problems now with his role as well as writing a piece for the guardian newspaper of the last friday. i spent my time between germany and,

and elsewhere. and i have been really quite struck and depressed by the inability of public germany to find a language that both reconciles dash dots. gaze on the whole idea of post war post not see germany regarding it as a fundamental flag of its existence. and the reason of the state of germany to support israel alongside legitimate criticism of the actions of this fall, right? that's in the off who government i'd be getting ability. the fact that germany is and the german government has been so desperate to close down the discussion of that suggest to me that it hasn't made the progress that i had always assumed it had into. it's all coming up with an a, a sympathetic, but subjective approach to as well. the type is what, what was your response be to that? because that has been a loss of silence saying,

of critics of israel and pro palestinian voices since the war on guns that began in germany. but i would 1st of all argue that's been the very 1st statement. our foreign minister a gave after the terroristic attack on the 7th of october, before she flew off to this row, she made clear, of course, this row has the right to defend itself, but within the framework of the international law. that means from the base of international law, it has the right to defend itself, but it also gives the framework and therefore the older responsibility israel has to take on if it defends itself. and i think this is very important. of course, i do understand this to onst, and this is to a certain amount and not what people might hope for how the suffering of the palestinians is seen for the very 1st statement. i would argue this was of

course, the response to the risk attacks on the stuff stuff from tober and after dad's i would say yes, it's incredibly important that we see and we talk about the new main suffering. the palest indians have to take on. and we have to discuss, it's very, i don't want to say carefully, but in the metro or in a serious matter that i've been in the best, i can just jump in that because it's not necessarily talking about the suffering of the palestinians. it's talking about the action of the is re lease and the german government has said that it must act within the bounds of international humanitarian. no, yes it's no. why is it not? i mean the, the, the german government of supplying aides to the bill of simians and i would argue that is definitely within human terry and international law. on the other hand, most of the weapon deliveries since the 7th of october, the vast majority of it's where we are part of it off of the testing of training or

industry in industrial corporation. so of course i do understand that that we have delivered weapons in the past or israel um to defend themselves. and of course i do also see that and i think there, and i mean that is another case in front of the i, c j. if they are, and it is up to the r c j to decide that if the use in this more a force of military equipment is in the freedom of, of international law. and of course, this ruling of the i c chain, this other case is encrypt important. okay, well, that's a, that's what it was. weapons. so that was a, a crucial part of the i c j case against german 8. so let's just have a listen to what the defense argument was when it said that the weapons that germany sent as well, but not least. so if we look at what has actually been license for export to israel

under this framework. since october 2023, we see no artillery shells, no munitions. nearly all experts, the exports involved, what is known as of the military equipment. typically, all the subordinate or defensive nature. as a matter of fact, only for weapons, war weapons have been licensed for exports since october 20, 233 of which concern test or practice equipment. so let's bring you into the discussion at this point because you have contributed to a lengthy report on germany's weapons export to israel. so do you agree with the core of this defense that germany made yesterday and quote to absolutely not see, it is unfortunately very disingenuous and it is defense by an instrument and the court to claim that to and the vast majority of weapons and we're not weapons of war, but this is an internal definition that the german government has developed in order

to whitewash and certainly that he weapons that are being sold. and those weapons which are defined as weapon. ready waterways and the, the claim are mostly weapons for training. in fact, we have evidence. some of these are in the military that they use a, i mean nation and proponents which are designated for training in order to kill people in gaza. and we know that the ships and the warships, germany has it's sold to is, are, and are used to long and the gaza strip. this is under no circumstances considered to be self defense because it does not have the rights to. defendants have multiplied territory and does not have the right to use artillery against a on civilians. this is. ready the world crime as well as a part of what can relate to the crime of genocide. and therefore it is completely illegal for germany's doing. and then these weapons i should say about these worships and me some damage of adventure and mentioned that they were sold before

and never the less the last of those warships, it's called star and basics has been delivered to a 0 after october 7, when already it was clear that is or is committing genocide. and in this defense that we've seen that by buying a germany in the course, we've seen 1st of all that they have ignored the most important it statements by, by the noise in the car, after which we said quite at the beginning, the german, these and as on the top i reason on states and to stand by the side of these roads and does not to him seem to find that is roads as a right to represent all the jewish people. and so what we are really seeing here is a very am in a co op use of the memory of the cost in order to profit from an honest rate. and that we've seen so many. and there is so much evidence of a german, a deadly weapons, whether they call them weapons of. ready or not, and be used to kill for the stands and to go straight to, to kill civilians as active revenge as acts of genocide. and it's simply not

convincing that the german government is not. so you're aware of this, the information is okay and open products that lets us give us have us a heavy us, a chance to respond to the festival. just pick up on shows. last point was the german government, fully aware of what was being sent to israel and used in gaza. i cannot answer. that's of course we have tracking what's a or usually we're tracking what's happening with the weapons, whether they are apply. it's in, in the framework that is agreed on, but this is a confidential information and, and of course i cannot, i actually don't know how much that, that's been the case in, in, in this industry. what from delivery cases, whether we already have those information, whether we have the reports and of course certain reports are public, but of course they need to be confirmed to um, well, and violate or step out of agreed and contracts. okay.

the same is the munition being given to israel is being used to kill people in the goals and strip the absolutely, sir, it's tom. my information is that old m s. and this of course, agrees with what was presented yesterday in the court is that most of the and then the vast majority of a one to past been delivered was for training purpose. if this is um, apply different lead out of course uh that needs to be looked at, but there is no um, no, no. sure. sure. um, information about that that we can act on at the moment. okay. i mean, uh, as none of us to hear a noise, let's move away from the, the detailed nuances of that case yesterday. and look at the situation in germany more broadly. john, i want to bring you in and pick up on something. she said that this supports wholesale support of israel,

especially now the whole government of israel in its will. on garza, she has cooled it a cynical abuse of the memory of the holocaust. what do you say to that? a sort of the german word which is your in, which means yes i had no i talked, i agree with that. in the inability, i do not see it as a cynical abuse. i see it as an inability to understand and in some ways, drive apartment on a slightly different times and the memories of the will have a full. so in my view, confuse gemini when it comes to defending ukraine against russia. the sense of never against the wall, which was a false conclusion for the 2nd world war rather than you defended democracy. so germany, in one respect has been too cautious in my view when it comes to ukraine. is that the, the role lessons as with regard to israel is a fundamental tenant of,

i mean, it is obvious that germany is always going to have a different relationship to this route. that all the countries, because of its history. but it said it cannot be seen to be this one paying envelope, precludes that prevents discussions about what the is right. the government is doing. i've been mentioned yahoo government to this particular government which is prop top by far right. would be considered a road to government where it, not israel, it is an extreme government represented by somebody like nothing yahoo absolutely belongs to the old tried paul, derives type of leda that sadly is becoming bull too prevalent around the world. and yet germany doesn't appear to have the emotional oxygen, if that isn't a a mixed match effect to,

to understand how to deal with this government. you have even now, joe biden, being pretty critical. there's something to go about as a setting, a goal because he is as he is still as a buying israel, who is with you have the brits and it's a foreign secretary, david cameron being quite at least rhetorically tough on his route, but french all to the germans all pretty much and i take the point, the bad about the foreign minister has said more, but ultimately it comes down to off shots and there's nothing coming out of the tron slurry. but give any indication that this german government is anything about paralyzed by sphere of criticizing intro to this, that there is a difference, isn't that between supposing jews, supposing israel and supposing this particular government in israel, because it's not a government that upholds many of the germans values,

particularly dice at the bottom, the values and the green policy, your policy, the prime minister facing corruption trials trying to of a whole supreme court extreme right wing members of the government. so how does it reconcile? how do you reconcile your wholesale support for it? i mean it, 1st of all we are is supporting the israel did the state of his row and the right to exist if it's are a that's the that starts as all soon as on the top and ends that i think this is very important. not only if you watched the debate within the last few weeks, but also i would really say within the 1st, within the last few months, i would agree that there has been a period of chalk of chalk up the 7th of october. and i think this has been particularly big in german needs because it was after all, the days the most choose have been killed since the holocaust. and i think that the

had an impact on our memorial culture and many, many people in germany. but after the 1st shock about that, i would argue that there has been a lot of debates around the use riley governments and within the last few weeks we've been seeing that's, that's that, of course not only the fact that it's a right wing governments, but also the question on how they're fighting that war and the problems with how they're fighting that war is being discussed more and more. of course, also in, in, in circles where i argued that have been more opposed to the idea that this is a problem. it's problematic approach, but i think it's very important. on the other hand, of course, we're still having debates around how much criticism of this government or not, not how much the criticism, that's the wrong way to put it out of wrong and say what kind of words to use to

criticize. and that's government and obtained very se, of course, very nuanced approach on and what is perceived and what actually is. and it's a mistake. and i think there we have a very strong debate around homes. and, and i do understand that this on certain from, from, from a certain perspective seems as if we would not discuss about how act, what's actually happening on the ground is that we would not discuss about this one . and guys jump in because we are running slightly out of time. we haven't had much insurance or i apologize for that. but i just listening to the way to bias is b, choosing his was so costly. and i understand that this is a very complex subject within germany, but isn't to the point now with jeremy's tied itself up and not somebody still stay at that. there is a lot of debates around these rated government and support for it. so criticism for

to was criticizing it, is that, are you feeling the people are allowed to say what they feel? no, absolutely not. there is a culture of censorship, and people are being cancelled say every day in germany and the journalists and of university professors and are simply not allowed to just speak their mind, including a jewish activities joyce color. they're also assignments to every day. if they dare to support the student rights, i think that's a what to and mister boucher larry referred to in terms of german, german, some a culture memory, a comfortable memory that's completely failed because germany was supposed to be the 1st country in the world to recognize the warning signs, hunger, masturbation being used as a weapon of war, dehumanizing, an in type of people. these are the signs of insight, but apparently instead of the year from him, when he says, if we don't know really to look into it. so basic need to say all of this information, which is nothing to open. it reported here on a 0 is simply

a not known to the german government because they choose to close their eyes and it is the, his part to the green product, you know, color shots and which has established a special committee in order to facilitate more. i'm sick sports stories are an after october, 2nd. and so this, it was the 1st one submitted to this committee to examine whether a, how these weapons are being used. and in fact, it's in the minister of foreign affairs of his party and then and available to say, confident it consistently opposed a ceasefire and, and blocked a attempts to promote sci fi with the un or the you level. and they promoted more budget this. okay, so i mean i'm very conscious that like we are running out of time and i can see to because one thing, something that just to respond i, i'm 1st the 1st of all, i think we need to establish that there still well more than a 100 people being taken hostage and of course they need to be free. it's to have

a permanent solution on this war. i mean, this is what all the negotiations are about. but after all, the human cherry and pause of fire pulse was always or not always, but pushed for, for many, many months, spite above all and on the end of the book. and i think the other point is very important to understand that there is a problem. what's happening on the ground does not make us complicit. and i think we are addressing that there needs to be more humanitarian aids to get into gaza. that's israel has the responsibility on the occupied territories to well, so the human terry and crisis. i think this is very, very important. that's what i'm saying. what i was saying before, when we don't know, is regarding the fire arms and the weapons we delivered. our information is that this was on the vast majority for training or industrial campus. okay.

that saturday we have run out of time. we do have to wrap up our discussion even though it could be a one for a lot longer. i do appreciate you all taking the time to join us to best buy. hello john, come from. i'm sure. have a thank you very much and thank you for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website that's out there. adult. com for further discussion to go to a facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on x on homeless at a inside story from me laura karl, i'm the whole team here. that's fine for now. the, the, the, the, the

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like a feast from the farm to the tape. hundreds of excavations and restoration. this country is a place to slow down and enjoy the simple things coming to discover the natural, historical and cultural beauties. the hello i'm fully back to bullying doha, with the look at the headlines on how to 0. these really military says it's launched a targeted operation in central guys the overnight. it's happening on the outskirts of the all new c, a rod refuge account where at least 5 palestinians have been killed. several others were injured in an ast drive that targeted a school and a residential building. and the united nations agency for children says one of his vehicles was hit by live i munition unit says that the vehicle is target as while waiting to enter northern gaza. the agency also add.