people to solve for getting people to protest, connect with our community and tap into conversations you weren't find elsewhere. why is our government taking us to work on the basis of live? we the public has to get out there and do something about it. the stream on al jazeera to waste land of rubble. the un says clearing the debris from these rounds wore on. guys will be a huge challenge that to take 14 years unexploded. i'm a nation would also make this a dangerous task. so what will this mean for the millions of palestinians? so hope to return to that home. this is inside the hello and welcome to the program. i'm for the bad people on precedent did levels of destruction. that's how the un describes the state of gaza. since these rounds will

began in october, no buildings have been spread from these really strikes home schools, mosques, hospitals damaged or destroyed, the wens. my action agency says that after more than 6 months of devastating war, $37000000.00 tons of debris knowledge of a strip clearing it will take more than a decade and will likely be slowed down by the unexploded bombs and munitions scattered. swamp garza for palestinians living among the revel in the densely populated territory that makes one even more dangerous environment. and once the war is over, would it be safe for people to return and rebuild that homes were put back to our guest shortly. but for us, this report from image and came back in 6 months, israel's war and goes a has killed more than 30 full size and people enclosed unprecedented destruction. nearly 300000 homes have been flattened. heritage sites are in ruins, or universities have been destroyed or damaged. and hospitals and government

buildings have been which is the rubble along with the devastation to people's lives. there's enormous amounts of deputy, which includes unexploded munitions and we require a huge amount of clean up. we estimate $4.00 to $37000000.00 tons of of debris which is approximately 300 feet of debris per square meter. the u. n says it needs 10 percent of munition that is foot fails to function. considering the sheer level of bombardment is rises, rain, dine on garza. they may be thousands of on exploded booms in the rubble making what long, dangerous. we're talking about 14 years of work with 100 trucks, so that's based on that figure. 14 years to remove with approximately 750000 work days and person work days to remove the debris. the cost of removal will likely be in the 10s of millions of dollars. according to the mines advisory group clearing

urban areas is hold at the group with areas. and some of the weapons used, like aircraft drop booms and precision guided missiles, can be difficult to remove. during the clean up goals that remain a danger zone. nearly 2000000 people are internally displaced in goal so desperate to return to their homes. but the sooner we struggle with the lot going from one place to another. this is the 3rd time we are relocating for them. reflect hon eunice and no debate. anybody to have them there is no safety anywhere. we are civilians and have not done anything wrong. we are tired, find a solution, but rebuilding homes. i'm assuming daily life will likely be delayed by the many risks facing palestinians. the goals it has been here before, but not on the scale. and oft, everywhere, sweeping for munitions has been necessary. this time, it may need great suede said the smooth, densely populated strip,

uninhabitable long off to the will reserve the image and came out 0 for inside story the less now bringing our guests for today's show in geneva, we have jonathan guthrie, director of operations at the norwegian people said in amman, federico dessie, middle east director of the n g o, humanity and inclusion and in ramallah in the occupied westbank, russia, holly, the director general of the palestine economic policy research institute. gentleman, a warm welcome to your thank you for joining us on inside story, federico and i'm on. let me start with you, because you were in guys i just last month in march, prior to october 7th. how many unexpected munitions would you expect to find in gaza? and how much has a danger posed by these weapons increased since the start of the war? october 7th?

it seems well before due to some of the number of so many issues that have to be no, i think they're all closer be federal laws and all taxes and got before before this one. i just wanted to stay on the 2nd part as well as the 2014 and that caused the excessive destruction still use to manage the number one is placed on us. so we present the end of this phone call will be probably between 5 and the higher than what you can see in 2014. and they asked them off. yeah, would it be possible you thing to know the full extent of the con termination caused by the current conflict? it's very difficult. uh, our estimates. i mean, we're working on a where's the assumption that there has to be assigned to be between 50200000 bomb dropped on, on gas on shows the past 6 of them on some of the numbers really by today unfortunately into the us fire will be place and then between 9 percent and 14

percent to technical estimates. all of the small so even go off. so what we're talking about several thousands but actually up to $10000.00 or more um honest blow to balls and show some more around. so got it. okay. briefly for the for the recall before i bring it in, jonathan, you were in guys last month of that. as i mentioned. what, what did you witness? why you with a, what was the situation? because of course we describe it. we see the pictures on television on a daily basis, but how did you, did you imagine that it would be as bad as we see it on our screens? a simpler situation, i've seen an engineer saw a few minutes on career. so there are 2 kinds of this and you guys are the, are the slats and we're like, most people have been damaged or just trying to use performance on the drop. oh,

i know so lying speeds and empty the range. and then you have to stare. they've been targeted, is it less than tasking where. busy most of the issues now regrouping or rough. uh, and then the cost of properties in the area where drawer hundreds of thousands of people crammed into tons of sacramento camps on the beach and benches. course they've been tempted to show it to us as soon as he may be in the shop to damage buyers, products because prices are happening everywhere, even in those areas where they are producing us. but indeed, the strikes are happening even in areas which these really is. i'd said we're, we're safe for the people. jonathan, let me bring you into the conversation. you've worked extensively in syria and iraq and know you know that these weapons, these, unexploded munitions are a huge concern of course with civilian population. but for a place like guys out with one of the highest concentration of civilians living in

an area, a densely populated area. just how dangerous is it? what, what's the impact of these unexploded munitions on people who live in gus? yeah, thank you very much for having me today. um yeah, i think you, you've hit the knob on the head when you were talking about dogs and because she had density of the bombing and in such a small area. and that we're having goals and we're saying you know, up to 50000 explosive ordinance, especially large and from spain dropped. and 90 percent of the immunizations to be used in gaza had been logic problems 1000 pound or 2000 pound across homes. and, and this can cause a, but a significant, straight to the, to the local community. um, you know, taking some of the lessons learned about the same from the, from, from, from iraq and syria. conflicts is that, you know, we, we really need to have

a kind of a 2 pronged approach to, to the response that is response that's is required to support the rubble removal, debris, removal and reconstruction. but there's also the response to supporting a lot of civilians and, and we really need to be able to educate the local sick again, civilians and communities, especially eyes out of caps and provide them with the education and on the risks that they use munitions parties. because the educator how you educate jonathan, those civilians when they are experiencing, when they're in the middle of a war. i mean, we've seen people even during this caustic trying to return to their homes. because you know, they want to find food and so on. people being warned correctly as the boys on going on about the dangerous they face. yes, i how actually an mpi is, uh, is quite heavily involved in this providing a education by through the camps, but also the, the how to camp population and,

and teaching them what explosive ordinance look like. and how to respond when, when we find them, i think the situation that we have at the moment is there is no kind of coordinating and response mechanism to that to, to respond when the local population does find these munitions. and that probably won't come into effect until uh until the end of the conflict. okay, and i'll come back to in a minute, federico, to ask you about what you think the response should be. roger highlight in ramallah, let me bring you into the conversation. now we see buildings and civilian infrastructure completely destroyed in guys, a systems of water and sanitation, housing, schools, hospitals, and so on. do you think guys that will still be habitable when this, when? well, from the 1st days of the war, our own research was more or less all grouped under the understanding that this more as a was to make goes up on and have a, as an economic kind of monitoring,

economic and social impacts. everything has just confirm it in different a different stages from the thomas side that we've seen a to what is it about 2 thirds of the residential stock of the north, i believe, to the you know, what, the nice thing of, of food and starvation. and if you did decide scholastic aside, we cannot, you know, keep up really. mm hm. so that's the 1st point. certainly we now have a much and i think that i want to just, you know, picking up from your previous speakers. you know, i, we started looking at 2014 as a competitor in assessing economic impact and assessing disruption. but we since concluded and started thinking in terms of 1945 is that the bark. this is a total destruction. this is total devastation the world bank report on the

different sectors, housing, health, education, cultural heritage, the billions of they have suffered and the billions in some cases or have you know, half a 1000000 half a 1000000 dollars, the health official, the facilities alone. and that's like 70 percent of health facility, so that sort of scale is on, on heard of. and i just want to also say that this question of rubble, the mining extremely important in and i'm thinking about these details is something that we need to start doing more of because, you know, in fact the unexploded ordnance from the last 4 is what was a major part of how much is arson? so i'm sure that these really is going to need to, you know, and this is the problem. you know, we don't want to get into a situation where we create mechanisms which prolongs early occupation. so the fact that there's an international concern about the mining and, and quickly getting this ordinance out of the way so that the rubble clear and this can begin, that's in itself. questions of month. so time scale of rubble removal is a huge,

huge subject. yeah. and so then, uh federico, how, how does a clear and even begin when the war is still going on, when you look at the destruction of the heavy infrastructure that has been, is it possible to know, 1st of all, the types of munitions that have been used and what is going, what is going to take the key of and what the response should look like. the usual whatever cheese are, see on the cross is a on the air draw was very large and then get you into 4. so nice kito balls. and then there are some weeks off the top shows more drones and then some here surfers the size most of the house i'm going to can production use but easy. harvey i was. what do you, what would it take to clear, it won't even make the soup safe. i got most of these has always these fire because

the only way and to operate safely and reach all of the stream, especially those that would be more highly volatile. where people are flat and we'd like to go back as soon as possible. a 2nd we need to access means optimizations from the easily i'll talk to you some from any out. are concerned alternative. you can bring it inside equipment and to door. not all the off, i need to find the kind of what a fuse and mark you to ask, which is something the court to use. those are going to take leave. i really do need, but only to which are also be able to diffuse these items, sub domain them and remove the far boot working onto the route. what would require a specialized med arm of the kind of peters the order is complete or so. and so there, especially people going to be asked on, it cannot be hard also, you're not to work, we are indeed,

and that sci fi is needed. and even when there is a ceasefire, when the war stop, the issue of access is key, isn't it? jonathan? as for the recall, mentioned there accessing these areas and also getting the equipment in jonathan, what do you think the process should be when it comes to you know, uh, clearing these uh munition and these weapons from the gaza strip and who should be involved? yeah, i think it should be a coordinated and collaborative top f a where it's, it's a you and lead mission. it should be you and leg coordinated mission. but using the resources that, that civil society can, can, can bring into positive saying, uh, with the same responses wherever the same construction, racing ahead of mine action we, we really need to bring the mon action community and experts into the planning the assessment sizes. so the needs to be experts that are attached to assessment missions when going in and looking towards how we're going to plan the

reconstruction and the debris removal and bringing in this expertise of the earliest possible states will prevent uh, you know, delays in the future. so, i mean, i think we, we really need to have that in place. we really need to have a strong information management system in place. again, most likely to be un let so that we can really map out the contamination. i've had exactly what top for them, that's what funding and what responses is appropriate. but i would like to just echo what the previous webspace spoke about. an access is really an issue at the moment and getting it, access equipment is, is essential because there's not much that the minor can community can do if they don't have the appropriate equipment to be able to rend, decides to these munitions. yeah. access it is an issue in india because i mean we've, we've seen that even aid hasn't been able to get to, to, to get through to the gaza strip. and especially in the northern areas of the gaza

strip, just on, on the humanitarian impacts. jonathan, let me ask you a little bit more because we haven't touched on that. the types of injuries that people are also standing as a result of these weapons that are being use, what types solve it and how it is difficult. is it going to treat them not just now, but in the long term? what impact is it going to have on, on the civilian population of goss and now it's going to have a massive impact on the civilian civilian community within within garza. i mean, we can talk about the, you know, the physical impact, but molten sonny is probably the mental health and sort of logical support. the impact is going to have on and has already high on the paperless, gaza. i mean, really, really, really needs to be, to be addressing this. and we really need to be thinking about how to support now. because, and, you know, people that are suffering from this kind of mental health and trauma and then more likely to take risk. we'll see, right, that levels of risk maintaining what they will do return and uh,

and then that's going to actually cause more and more physical, you know, injuries in the future as people do it to. so i think that really needs to be address now and uh, and then you know, we kind of can see very, very typical uh, thoughts as explosive injuries which to be at, you know, obviously fights so that lots of looms in general brands, etc. right. a rush that let me come back to you and hopefully get your economic expertise on all this, even with a guy with a war sale going on. and guys, some people are already talking and imagining reconstruction. rebuilding guys are, there's already talk about all of that. how much is it going to take? how complicated, and how expensive will it be to clear guys and how much global funding is there at the moment? for, for the mining efforts that we've been talking about as well. the mining efforts are a critical and early action that needs to be dealt with. and some of the points that we mentioned are extremely important. however, regrettably,

it's probably going to cost it's the least costly $1.00. and perhaps, you know, in the right circumstances, something that can be dealt with relatively easily compared to the construction. i mean, when we talked about reconstruction, we started talking about reconstruction. whole we've been able to do it has been in so far is really char, the extensive damage to the most recent world bank report was only the 1st 4 months of the root of the, of the war. since and we've had terrible, terrible disruption in the center. so that was an 18 point. $5000000000.00 estimate, which so now we're talking closer to 2025. now that's the sort of a numbers that only reparations, and a marshall plant type regional international funding can, can handle. yeah. so that's certainly one issue. but the other issue i think is also the staging. and the organizing goal is, and the fact that we need to be careful that not only that you and agencies are not

replaced by a non you, and let's say players and the relief effort and the maritime core, for example. another thing, but also the above the stands are the leading, the reconstruction vision and so you know, where do you go with the level? do we use that to expand, to make a new bother the it's extremely critical and problem, you know, sensitive subject to be honest, a very strange i'm subjecting like, oh, we'll have the or 40 and on and what have you 40 and resources to rebuild the cost the right absolutely, well the authority for assistant principal, the b b a. so will have that authority once it's, it continues to reform it's, it's been and prepare for this. it has the reconstruction agency. that's where it should be. how's that the world bank will be involved, the regional donors, lots of what about is the, where is the, you know, is it, well, if we, you know, the principle of reparations, you know, something we have to talk about going back to 948. if we can start with the 2023 war and pin them down on that, then the other ones might be, you know,

but that's something we shouldn't forget. this is not the 1st time is real. this goes on, you know, on told, on, until incalculable damage which has never as been held, responsible for compensating, right, federico and amman, your thoughts looking ahead to reconstruction? how big of a gap do you think they'll be between? what's needed right now given? know what causes experience and the funding the funds that will be available on the side of see i was saying that bill keeps increasing. most of the term offices, destruction by this up for others. you might, you read the priority is to address the media to monitor your needs. now, if you were to injures before we have seen thousands of people outside are from on conditions. and there are thousands of people ask lots of from injuries and required and not just immediate surgery, but also nursing care. and she's in therapy, really patient, you know,

sometimes weeks or months off to off to the blush or there are there. yeah. end of the construction, i think it's, it's important to stop by now, but we're still far from, from, from the moment we need to, i think then can i shoot your needs to address that would cause you solve this conflict. we need to make sure this conflict is the last one. if there is no real solution that creates ability and the front of us deals our security for the whole range of the including israel. then the cannot be true reconstruction because the amount of money and finally be verified. the number of us will be, you know, 510 years of these. and i know i have to regency with invest in that. i guess there shouldn't be just something stable. we best not put an experience, but there's a future of peace and prosperity for our guys and forgot to sign in the region.

awesome that jonathan, your thoughts to the venture reconstruction of guys? i will no doubt be a monumental task. you know, how important will it be to have a really solid process in place and what should be the priorities? because every building in the infrastructure is important. but as we heard treating the people. so if guys a who of experience who will be no, been victims of this conflict and who experience really severe injuries, what would also be a key? yeah, and it's, it's going to be very difficult to prioritize. i mean, generally speaking, the international community will have a captive funding that will guides voice areas. so they'll be, they'll be that the supports clearance and, and in, in effect and support the reconstruction. but also there be other sources of funding that will be directed towards supporting the civilians and victims. so i think between, between nice to and between the different funding sources we can, we can separate the quite easily. and um, and yeah, i mean,

i think as i mentioned before, assessment sort of central and until we get until we get access and understand the extent of the contamination, then it's very, very difficult to, to understand exactly how the best, what is the best approach in traditional mind clearance, you know, we can go into surveys, we can map out areas and then we can have a proactive approach to, to clearance. and that might be the case in, in some thoughts of gaza. but in other parts, it might be a more responsive approach as people who are ton and as a response mechanism in place for what they find. it could be having educate, but we will need to educate all workers. everybody that comes back into dollars will need to be educated on the risk. somebody's pause then, and then we can have also a much an x. that's that a city on standby, it was supporting reconstruction team to rubble really little change, right? so it's going to be a combination is of, of different approaches, i think, depending on which part of the guys and what we're going to be operating. yeah,

jonathan, i wanted to ask you about, you know, some of the types of the weapons that, that have been use. and apparently they include the controversial incendiary wide phosphorus which can sepi into water supplies. i understand. so the consequences of all this will be long lasting. i mean, how do you address that? yeah, i mean the, the use of in century weapons is, isn't, isn't near to, to, to conflict. but using it on this level in, in populated areas is, is quite unprecedented. and, and the environmental impact that it will have as it leaks as you mentioned, leaks into water systems, etc. so we'll need a completely different response, a, something that at the moment i can check that hasn't really worked on a, in, in break data. and previously with other our initiatives in place at the moment, they're already looking at it and tests. and charles have been conducted on how we could potentially claim water supplies from explosive residues and things. so again, this is just such a complex department that with the,

that were walking into and it's an unprecedented it's, it's something that we've never really seen before. i style an unprecedented situation. no doubt roger lady in ramallah will give you the last word. what should be the best approach? what should be the strategy for, for reconstruction? and what should decision makers you think, consider when, when they move forward? well, 1st things 1st i think, and we've already heard about some of those 1st things. so i mean, there's a logical sequence of what you need to be, what needs to be done this year, and what can be done and what needs to be done next year. and what might be possible given resources. and this year it's about, it's about emergency relief, which is costing around $3.00 to $3.00 and a half $1000000000.00 a year. it's about temporary shelter, which nobody has yet even started putting in place for up to. ready a 1000000 display people it's, you know, next year is about the end. it's about revel removal. hopefully starting on these other immediate, then you have a whole new stage next year, which is when you're going versus perhaps the people to start the building again.

but even then you need something to boost the private economy. people cannot after the sort of trauma mass trauma. and the lack of service is the slow return of services cannot be expected to go back to work, you know, and do this. so we need a scheme, something like a universal emergency universal basically income scheme. so at least you know, before we start to rebuild the, we need 10000000000 in the next year or so. and that's, you know, even that's daunting in the lock as everybody said in the lock with these fire and the lack of a political process and a whole lot of other students taking charge of this process. and it's not the mortgage to regional powers or even, you know, with all due respect the international agencies, but you've been doing a brilliant job in our apps. thank you for gentlemen for a very interesting discussion. jonathan guthrie, federico dessie and roger holly. thank you very much. for joining us on inside story and thank you to for watching, you can always watch this program again any time by visiting our website that entre 0 dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page at facebook dot com

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b b the the hello i'm, i am the laws. this is the news, our life from dell hall coming up in the next 60 minutes. at least 25 palestinians are killed in his riley as strikes in rough up the southern gauze just as you previously declared, a safe diplomatic efforts for us. these 5 continue, the secretary of state is in saudi arabia. while i'm asked to go straight to the travel to come, i wrote the tools in all the new south korea accused as the north of lang landlines, and the demilitarized zone between the 2 countries. and the poles open until it goes parliamentary elections with the opposition.