i know how resting there we'd crawled by day. why did they may not get that good. right? because the risk management of wait am phone from around the world. surprises rose sharply. yeah. inside when neighboring nigeria, restricted as or the international criminal course topic prosecutor says 6 arrest warrants for his wally, i'm from us leaders. the united states was condemned to move against its allies. but really, i see things action deepen as well as international isolation for it's for on concept. this is inside story, the hello welcome to the program. i'm adrian, instead of going really 7 months of was more than 35000 palestinians killed and widespread destruction of the densely populated guns

a strip. the international criminal courts top prosecutor says that is really prime minister benjamin netanyahu on defense minister. your go on, that criminal responsibility for war crimes and crimes against humanity. the ground cited by a criminal hon include starvation of civilians as a method of wolf app, intentionally directing attacks against civilians and willful killing. con is also applied for arrest warrants for 3. how much leaders for the october 7th attack on israel? so what does this mean for the devastation? one concept of how does legal pressure 1st and the genocide case of the instructional court of justice and now at the icbc impact the realities on the ground. we'll put that to on guess to the moment, but 1st a report from the coastal. i'm sure the president joe biden sounding mine is one us preston joe biden has shown these rejected. the decision by the prosecutor of the international criminal code to seek arrest warrants against is

fairly prime minister benjamin netanyahu. and his defense, mister hugh of cologne, is the 1st time the r c. c has sought. the rest of the top us ally i. c. c. prosecutor, cream con is also seeking deal rest of 3. how mostly does for the october 7th, a tech already horse, very ply. there is no a privilege between israel and i'm off it's clear because it was all due or can to ensure civilian protection. b i. c, c prosecutor says this evidence to show that nothing yahoo, i'm go on the criminal responsibility for crimes. and also in the past 7 months, the mazda attack on is watkins about 1200 people on october 7th, and as well as well. and also since has getting more than $35.00 pounds of palestinians, the crimes include starvation of civilians as a method of wolf,

i wilfully causing great suffering. serious injury to body or health or cruel treatment. also killing or murder, unintentionally directing attacks against a civilian population. as well as crimes against humanity of extermination, handling matter, persecution and navigation. some crimes of committing other in human acts. nothing yahoo condemned what he called an outrageous position, accusing the icpc of anti semitism. the prosecutors of surcharges against being as well as the defense minister. i'm merely an attempt to deny, as well the basic right of self defense. and i assure you one thing this attempt will utterly fail. moss is also rejected to prosecute his decision to seek arrest warrants against its leaders. accusing putting con of 20 equate victims with the

execution of b i. c. c decision has ended, some palestinians in casa, in the we condemned the decision how much and gaza is a resistance, and the resistance will never give up as loud outlined as occupied. we can't just leave it like that as well on the us on north members of the i. c. c, which was formed in 2002. the palestine is a member and the code has the power to investigate war crimes committed on detach street of any of its member states. 3 while a panel of judges at the i c. c, we consider the prosecutors be placed with us walgreens, as well as places for the international installation, as opposed to use it's months long lenses bombardment of gaza essentially, which is 0. so inside service let's bring it out. guess for today's discussion. joining us here in the ha is diana book

to a promise to the lawyer and legal analyst from london. we joined by daniel levy, president of the us middle east project. so the full member of the official is really delegation is to piece talks with the palestinians of tampa and also and from amsterdam, we're joined by cape macintosh, executive director of the university of california, los angeles, low schools promise institute for shoot with rights europe. she previously served at the international criminal tribunal for the former yugoslavia and rewind, welcome to you. ok. let's stop with you. what's the significance of this move by the i see, see from your perspective, having worked on the instructional criminal tribunals for the, for the, this lobby and were when the white, the cutting con, go public. but his intention to seek these arrest warrants and not waits until later, actually been issued. well, i think i read to possible reasons for bob's one is that he's hoping to have an impact on what's happening on the ground. so he's, when he sees a restaurant space,

the that that will impact the conduct supposed to disease or possibly the situation of the hostages. and the other is that he's hoping to have an impact on the impression of the integrity of his institution. i think it's very important that he released these requests. i think it's important for those of us that care about accountability and international justice that we see that he was united to a certain extent brave enough to take this step. okay, is it a full conclusion to face arrest warrants will be issued. the most costs, the pre trial chambers. i'm sure everyone knows by now. we'll be looking to see whether the material that's being submitted with the application does establish reasonable grounds to believe that the clients have been committed. but it's very unlikely that the prosecutor would have not submitted adequate support for his request. he knows that lies will be on him, and it's

a relatively low threshold. and that has to be met at this stage. you may even submit summaries of evidence. essentially, the doctors won't just look at the elements of each crime alleged. i'm see whether material has been submitted, which would, which would, if proved to pull each element. so it's a relatively nice, i show them. i think we can see that it's probably likely to be granted. diana, as a palestinian lawyer, what strikes you about the way that these applications were made? i think that there's a lot of both sides of something that is happening here and while and definitely happy to see that is rarely meters are being held to account. i think that there is both a question on both sides of them where they're doing both have mass and israel is a and to his release as well as the list of charges, particularly against against these relays. there have been so many issues that have been omitted. for example, torture is not one of the issues that has listed against any hour and,

and against kalonde. even though we've seen that more than 27 palestinians have been killed in custody. and we have these videos as well as testimony of intuitive jewels who have been subjected to torture, as well as so who's who have done the torturing with all. so that's been omitted. is that the issue of genocide as well? and so wow, this is definitely a good start and it's fine it's, it's taken far too long to get to this point. i do think that he has engaged in a little bit of both sides of them and also the, the, the no mention of the occupation if to know there's definitely no context provided in this at all. so no mention of the occupation, no mention of anything that's happened before october of 2023. and as we know, this occupation is gone on for, for more than half a century. and the fact that there's simply hitting the start clock on october

rather than the start clock, which is when, when palestine actually signed onto the i. c, c is very telling and so there is lacking context is lacking depth. but again, i think it's very important because for all these years israel has been able to get away with literally murder and, and so the fact that we're finally seeing that one of these international institutions is beginning to hold. that's now and go launch accountable is actually a good 1st start. i hope it continues beyond this, and i hope we see not just indictments but to much more than that. in order for this genocide to finally come to an ad for the world to finally stop israel's genocide, donnie olivia, what are your thoughts on this? well, i think what we've seen thus far is possible. real reluctance on the part of the i c. c. 2 way and as deanna said,

as all the traces related to this space related to previous assaults on dollars that relate to, to israel side, crimes of sacral. instead of a still pending, i'm just following that fewer reluctance. here we all, with the court making the recommendation for these arrests. once i did call me and i think we should acknowledge this, this could be a no called effect from what we've already seen. your international court of justice from south africa, bringing that case from what the justice is going for in the provisional measures, but it's also a function of as the d n s reality that we've seen come out of goss? i'm. yeah, i have one of the things that i would point out these, these roles, friends, and allies, they've been saying to it, you know, what we're trying to wrong comes up for you. why are you making the so difficult at least let more of these 2 by the terry and stopping. so you called be under the

microscope, legally for the crime of full starvation. israel has acted with the kind of hubris and arrogance can only come with a level of impunity when they expect bully to carry on working. and they're looking at this thing. wait a minute on the for it. so need some attention supposed to stop the icpc from doing this, when okay, maybe they didn't yesterday or the day before, but now this will kick in the will be fine of why this is so important. is it, it's a challenge prove that impunity, this doesn't change things overnight. there's no silver puts, but when is re lease initially, notice it mo, question, but it's a question of pragmatism. an advocacy saw the thing, the question is b, i c c can go locked or all the just if companies and now say should we make that investment in? tell a beef full somewhere else or more. keeps going to be more open to us. all weapon

is going to keep flowing all research and develop a university corporation. is all that going to continue as if nothing has happened to women golf? so is that intuitive challenge? and the cost benefit equation looks different then we might actually see a change. so i think the most important message coming out is all those who are working to push impunity and accountability and to change that incentive structure redouble your efforts because they are beginning to walk. kate, to what extent are international law on the reputation of the legal bodies that are supposed to uphold it at stake? of all, i think very much say, i think in this whole situation, i think i got going back to the i c. j, a provisional measures decision which daniel just referenced, i think that was a collective holding up press before that decision as well because, you know, there isn't comprehension that the i c, j wouldn't be as impartial as it. i believe it's demonstrated itself to be,

wouldn't just apply the little and, and come out with a kind of decision it gauge. and i think that's been a similar feeling around the i c t. well, i mean, we know about all the precious apple. it's about on these institutions on the, you know, the very political realities that walking. and i think it's very important that i seem to be, to some extent, i mean, as far as possible, impartial. that's what the entire legitimacy russell. and i'd like to come back on the 2 sides isn't a point if i may, i don't disagree with anything that was said, but i would like to point out that i think it would have been impossible for cream con, to issue indictments against any one policy to this conflict, and in fact, the framework of international international humanitarian, though in particular, the lowest of will, is one which just click on its policies to the conflict. as you know, the parties to the conflict. can any motivation for fighting? is it relevant in the pine that little? so it's, it has this leavening factor for anyone who's fighting for what type of reason the,

the question of adjust or otherwise when it would volunteer whichever party it's adults by and of course explain it phones by face. in this case it's irrelevant. the point is, once you're in a contract, you have to abide by these rules. so he has applied the rules. i would say he's chosen the defenses that he is nice to everything else got conviction for. so i think he's probably followed the evidence. i think things like the, the non a few months turn assistance has such an old piece one. and the other one has picked, of course, which will talk to these writing sources is the indiscriminate or exciting to deliberate targeting civilians and my sick days. probably the 2 mice easy to produce and that's why he's gone in that direction. genocide, as we know, is an extremely high threshold, very difficult and it could tie him up for a mountain. he might not be successful. we might see those charges coming down the line, but i think it's not surprising that he issue the charges he to issue against these radius are these i think similarly,

the ones of against the have mass need is what we could have anticipated. and i think it would have been quite impossible for him to procedures against any one party. diana had asked them, out of the withdrawal of the applications cleaning up the i. c. c's, prosecute. who was equating the victim with the execution. now, what do you make of of that response? what will the people of guns and the occupied palestinian temperatures make of it? or? so we've been as palestinians, we've been waiting for an international institutions to check in for as long as, as a israel has taken over our country and taken over our land. and we haven't yet seen that these international institutions do anything. so as pals to me is, we're always told that we must resort to the law and we have many times whether that was in 2004 the i, c, j. whether again before is rarely courts, which that we've always been told we have to use, which are obviously not usable to everything from now. the, i see, and so on. policies have always put their faith in these international institutions

. and yet, it's the same answer to international institutions that have actually failed pals finance. and so this is why you're hearing the response that you're hearing. but on the issue of both sides, which i, what i, which i want to pick up on is this wasn't just a question of, of putting a labeling allegations against both sides. but it's a question of which of the, of the issues were picked up on when it came to him us, there were suddenly 8 allegations when it came to is we're only 7. and yet we have this evidence of what it is that israel's been doing this. and they made it blatantly obvious, and they've actually been projecting it for the past 280 days. so it's not that they've kept it secret, as daniel said they've been, it's been very loud and very proud about this genocide that they're committing. and even though the world has, has been telling israel comet down coming down as real fuels and bold and to do whatever it is that it wants to do. and so now is palestinians were saying, well,

if these institutions actually mean anything, you are going to be the ones that are going to stop this genocide because laughter, it's own devices. israel's not, it's going to continue to push on ahead because it's been given a green light by the world community. daniel, let's talk about reaction from the israeli side. then permit us to nothing. yahoo said the challenge is an attempt to deny israel the basic right of self defense. the count is poor and gasoline on the fires of anti semitism that a raging across the world. how much of a, a blow to his administration was this? so let's look at a couple of things assessable. this appeal to the outside world is against us. my friends, this fits very comfortably with me. complet safety, mental math that he's riley's, have it has been encouraged to develop when it comes to how do you relate to something like this? so i think the initial response, so we've seen that as being

a b. b. she received resigned. this uncles has been to a generally find all the rags. some people will say, well, know what the cost on a don. it's going to help not send you off, which is a silly thing to say because nothing, yahoo was not on the right of collapsing any time soon. he's coalition is stable and it's not for the cool to not make his decision based on that consideration. of course, so i think it is right. you've seen people, 1st of all come out against this is very important because it tells us that this is not just about not so young. the guy who is the other. how to just be the next leader of the labor party says, well, this is because upfront, we can do it was good enough for the leader of the opposition. yet the last page has said, when it's 50 agrees to the found the us know what i'd like to normalize extreme package. then the height will go away. one of the season notes, but it's important for that reason that has the slowly sink. see,

i'm actually not going to expect stinking. he's really will over time question this and you have, of course, had a group of 2 issues res, who have questions which said we have to take this seriously. your goals have palestinian citizens to be sort of taking a different approach on the very intimidating circumstances. deanna will love that better than anyone. and then when it comes to the actual conduct, all this assault on gossip from what it means, let's be clear, is ro, is going into russell. we're hearing the same stories of the, well, you know, we've done what the americans said. we got the people out of rock come to safety. they've gone to areas where they faced the bombing desk disease, salvation, insufferable human conditions. i'm pretty sure it's almost like roaming. so these of course, for rest florence of being issued against those 2 individuals, nothing y'all's doing deadlocks. if we call some minds back only a week,

they were long ahead. they were going assets against each other. why? because one would say, hey, we gave you political compet using the chief of military victory. the author was saying, the better treated it's bit you didn't have a political plan. what does this worry about? it's a blank window. blane james happened. they happened when there was a failure not only on the battlefield, but as we see now, legally, politically marty. reputation of why is this? i have so many reasons. one is a, if your revenue kind of is to say, we're going to have a reset, push things back into a reality of a pol, tightened band to sign lies ation. then you have nothing to work with. and so this takes israel's failings in this for to a whole new less. ready which of course does nothing to mitigate palestinian suffering box this morning. could lead to that and it could impact the other case that the i, c, j, the south africa can case i'm the cold for immediate station because of what's

happening in case you want to come back on on what daniel was just saying that i don't want also us extra site i'm for the blinking, said the dakotas overstepped it so far as he here has it. certainly not. no, the quote has not started so far as he the prosecutor has authorization to carry out an investigation without authorization. he proceed the investigation. i think diana, so with the voice the perspective that he took to, you know, i mean that's, that's certainly a position that got in many people his house. but he has applied the low to the facts that he was able to uncover in his investigations on these, the shooting diamonds. he has not paid the step to the 3rd to you is who i would say he's fulfilled his monday. okay, what about the argument? lincoln's argument that is really legal system should have thoughts but allowed the opportunity to proceed in a full, timely manner has to be drawn rushed. you said both you and diana was pointing out that it's been too slow as he ignored the principles of compliment. parity was

blinking, argued a tool that is an important principle in this talk to you because it would be i can see nothing, yahoo collapse. oh as well in general to ask for jurisdiction either those cases and they would be able to kind not jurisdiction look at that is to say that the i c c, the case would not be admissible as a formal process by which the chamber will look and see, wasn't the case is admissible at a later stage. on one of the grants for admission, tennessee is that the case is not being processed, easy to investigate in a, in a domestic court which has jurisdiction. so there was a mechanism for that. the application could be made, but it would have to be really demonstrations that these charges the, or these, these acts the same acts that form the basis of these challenges. what actually being properly investigated can prosecute you to this. i'll find out how much political pressure do you think the quotes going to come on the in the coming weeks

and months can, can we expect sanctions do you think to be issued against judges and prosecutors at the, the i c. c. i'm a group of republican senators in the the u. s. is already one to cool that if it, if it goes up to israel, we will come off to you. what do you make of that? this is the us flexing it's muscle and this isn't the 1st prosecutor that they have tried to strong arm and i don't think it will be the last one either. so i fully expect that they're going to try to go after cutting time. i do want to ask you addressed the issue of using the is really courts and it's important to note that is really long ago passed a law that said that no cases that are inside guys that can actually be tried inside is really courts that the is really, military has clark law, should do whatever it wants. and we've seen this not just in the gaza strip, where we've seen aggression after aggression attack after attack, where israel has not at all been held to account within their own legal system. but

we also see it when it comes to soldiers that are given a free hand in the west bank. if you look at the statistics that there are as effectively no mechanism by which to charge soldiers with any crimes and in which to prosecute anybody. for example, we have your colleague the killing of your colleagues 2 years ago should in a block clue who was, who was murdered as she was covering israel's action in jenny and, and to this date. the family still doesn't even know the name of the soldier who killed her, and nobody has been held to account. so there is no system by which is real contrie itself. and so this is just yet another talking point that blinking others keep throwing out as though somehow to kick this out of the international legal system. because they know that what israel's doing is fundamentally illegal under international law. okay, i've got about 2 minutes left. daniel, i want to get another question and indicate, but it's really positions, of course, as you'd expect of running around nothing. yeah. who won't go out?

what about the is where the public will, how will open rick is riley's feel about the fact that prime minister was the 1st western leader to have had an application for an arrest warrant with the, the, the i c, c. and the fact that it, it could, so the isolate israel for his war on guns as well. what we're seeing is that he's really typing treat you to a very similar take home. everything that has happened over the last months. and these rating media has an awful lot to also for. so i don't think you're going to see a blue cross section about public. take a different position. the question that for is, how will this be followed up not inside as well, but on the outside. and my one comments on that would be is it if the west continues to run a couple of full results, we provide those weapons been don't expect change inside this route. the real challenge here is sure you've called a captain, the west, which proud the west is a batch of pride, that it is xander phone, but he wants to bring down the international institutional architect. ready law,

the un, the i c c, the i've c j to put you in is i'm a, i will be the rest against the west agenda. i think they will fail. but the question to the supposed to be people which on a good day place to care about international lower than that institution loc. ready and the criminal courts in the us. what is that? because you'd all be willing to continue to pay the costs for running public as well, which is don't through the roof. exponentially installation of that costs the opposite, so far as the yes and the list unless they change the outgoing to collapse the whole thing around them in order to defend these writing more crimes and the pods i've got some problems. i finally came about a minute left. what are the chances of us ever seeing both accused appearing before the international criminal? oh, that's a difficult one to predict. and i would have sold the chances of seeing the have my slate as high as and of seeing the is right. and you need is just because of the,

you know, the press, a political support might be stronger. but i mean, who knows? we have seen, you know, when the last of which was indicted at the i. c t y. of course he was not in the same position. dear, politically as nothing. yeah. he got net when middle space was indicted, it was not clear that he would ever pay before that. and you can stop, you type email. he was also impala, he never was deposed, and he was eventually hand. today's, i mean there are many factors behind that box, you know, never say never. who knows what lies ahead for nothing. yahoo jobs as in law at how that'd be left handed manufacturing day trip, macintosh denny levy. and diana bu, to thanks for watching. you can see the program again at any time by going to the websites of i'll just 0, don't com. for further discussion, you can join us on facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash h a inside story. and of course, you can join the conversation on x on handle the page right inside story from me. i

agree instead of going the same here, and though i will see it by the one is the biggest elections of 2020 pools in the general election will administer now render movies be taking increase its food across the country. how will economic uncertainty and you've sent employment suede boots as in key states and will the media be able to cover the vote freebie and fairly ongoing coverage. but in the, as an actions on out as the era, the

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the the so on the bulk of this is the news life and i'm coming up in the next 60 minutes. b u. s. agency for palestine says it will stop delivering food a raffle while israel out israel steps up. it's as strikes on the southern city of gaza is around the shop sound the live kind of a position of the associated press news agency overlooking causes, citing the new media little us as is searching. that's a yahoo government to reverse the decision.