that to the judge by the clerk. that has now been processed. we're you live pictures from inside fulton county courthouse in atlanta in georgia. you are you are very you are very welcome you are very welcome to you are very welcome to joining you are very welcome to joining us here on the bbc news we have some breaking news to bring to you coming out of atlanta, georgia where the indictment in the former president donald trump have been unsealed just as we speak. we can bring you some live pictures now from that courthouse where we are awaiting a press conference to be held by fanny willis, the district attorney has been carrying out an investigation

into the former resident and his aides in relation to the 2020 election. we can bring you some brace in rooms expect breaking news that the reuters news agency says prosecutors have charged donald trump with violations of the georgia reco act, charged with a number of counts including ordering the first degree. —— rico act. including the former trump aide mark meadows and his attorney rudolph giuliani and another attorney of the former president, john eastman as well also facing charges. details on this ijust coming into us as you arejoining us and here in the studio with me, we have our north america correspondent.

while you're waiting for this press conference to get under way, what we know so far in terms of what's happened today and right now? it terms of what's happened today and right now?— and right now? it looks like these are — and right now? it looks like these are sweeping - and right now? it looks like| these are sweeping charges against not only donald trump but some of his closest associates, was widely speculated as being involved in this indictment. it is one of the first one is named. mark meadows, former chief of staff, a very significant name to be seenin a very significant name to be seen in this indictment sheet. but the scope of what the prosecutors in georgia are alleging here, the middle conspiracy to overturn the 2020 election. forgery, impersonating an officer which is related to the attempts to put forward a slate of electors

who were tested donald trump one georgia and notjoe biden stop these are not individual crimes but they package it all “p crimes but they package it all up in this racketeering law which allows prosecutors to increase the severity of the crime, and the georgia racketeering law which can come up racketeering law which can come up with 20 years in prison. these are serious charges and it's going to be a very big case not against donald trump but his closest confidant �*s. that is something we haven't seen up until now stop something we haven't seen in the classified documents case. donald trump and one of his assistants, being indicted along with them. investigations into the 2020 election hadn't seen other people named in that. now we have stop looking

there as we speak. lise there as we speak. live pictures _ there as we speak. live pictures from _ there as we speak. live pictures from the - there as we speak. live - pictures from the courthouse with declercq handing out what we think look like the charges to be gathered reporters there. as those are circulated, we bring you more detail. 11 individuals, this is going to take up a huge chunk of time—out of the campaign that the former president has already launched to run again for the white house. we don't know when this case will go to trial. p, . , know when this case will go to trial. ,., ., , ., , trial. donald trump and his team of lawyers, _ trial. donald trump and his team of lawyers, i - trial. donald trump and his team of lawyers, i think . trial. donald trump and his i team of lawyers, i think they are going to attempt to draw this out as long as possible. it will be a distraction, and you have to remember also that, with the 2020 presidential election, attempts to challenge the results leading up to the january six attack on the us capital stop all of those wait on the minds of american voters

and if you look at some of the poles that came out of this mid—term election, what happened onjanuary six, that really affected how a lot of americans viewed republicans, view donald trump and they cast their ballots for democrats. they over performed in those mid—term elections. i think what you could see, if it goes to trial next year or the federal case goes to trial first which is dealing with similar sort of situations, that could be a very real destruction, it could remind voters in the days, weeks, months for the 2024 presidential election what happened last time and that could be very detrimental to republicans and certainly to donald trump. figs republicans and certainly to donald trump.— republicans and certainly to donald trum -. �* , ,, ., donald trump. as you mentioned, the fourth indictment _ donald trump. as you mentioned, the fourth indictment the - the fourth indictment the former president is facing and we sawjust former president is facing and we saw just recently a former president is facing and we sawjust recently a number of republican former lawmakers, formerjudge and attorney general, gathered together to

agree with that push from jack smith they should be an expedited hearing. i thought that was fascinating - expedited hearing. i thought that was fascinating and - expedited hearing. i thought that was fascinating and it i that was fascinating and it shows that there is some sentiment among republicans, maybe not the republicans were closest elijah donald trump, the closest political allies, but individuals may be trying to give the best interests of the party long—term in mind, that they want to get this over quicker. they don't want this drawn out, they want to rip off the band—aid and if he is going to be tried and can be good, it's much better to have that happen now and have it happen we or months before a presidential election. i think you are starting to see some difference of opinion within the republican party about how to handle this and also the seriousness of this, what it means for republican party, what is in the best interests of republican and it may be diverging from what is in the

best interests or donald trump personally. donald trump's —— they released a statement saying they have taken away donald trump's first amendment right the speech on the right to challenge a read and stolen election that the democrats do all the time stop the ones who should be prosecuted other ones who created the corruption. that statement was issued on the campaign before the indictment was sealed a little earlier today. indictment was sealed a little earliertoday. it's indictment was sealed a little earlier today. it's the same tone that we've seen from the former president in response to all of these indictments. if he hasn't been fazed by them, they've emboldened and strengthened him, and he's been able to use them to his advantage to some extent. there is a playbook _ advantage to some extent. there is a playbook for— advantage to some extent. there is a playbook for this _ advantage to some extent. there is a playbook for this from - is a playbook for this from donald trump's team and it was one that was set out after.

honestly even as the investigations began that might have led to the indictment. that was efforts by donald trump and his supporters to characterise this as a witch—hunt, an attempt by his political enemies to prevent him from regaining the white house, essentially putting an end to his political aspirations in a way that will take it out of the hands of voters and put it in the hands ofjudges and that's an argument that was the lot of republican voters are buying stop i go out and talk to donald trump supporters and talk to rank—and—file republicans and a lot of these states. they say they view this as a partisan endeavour. the putting forward these charges. and in fulton county georgia controlled by democrats or in washington dc, these are

prosecutors who are using their powers to stop his political rebirth. giving him an amazing amount of our time. at a time when many media organisations have pledged not to broadcast live his rally speeches and so on stop is managing his own way to dominate the airwaves and the ink on the paper in terms of all of these indictments. what reaction has there been on the competitors, the other candidates. a certain amount of frustration. as mentioned, 2015. his ability to suck up all the oxygen stop on the political world. all the oxygen stop on the politicalworld. if all the oxygen stop on the political world. if you try to make your case and trying to get our time, recover what you are saying stop it's really hard to have any kind of

headway and hard to make any kind of public case why people should vote you rather than donald trump stop and there was the sense this was playing well with nervousness from some of the other potential candidates to upset that applecart. it is. a lot of them have long—term political ambitions. they hope of the donald trump, people like ron desantis, certainly initially were perhaps reluctant to go too hard against donald trump because his base, they turn on them, it could ruin their political career. we've seen republican politicians who have come out strongly against donald trump baby ultimate price. the ultimate political price, they lost their election campaigns, people like liz cheney and spoke out against donald trump

and was on the january six committee. she was in the primary and she lost her seat in the house of representatives because of it and she was a member of the republican leadership team going into this so even the mightiest republicans, if they make a misstep and move against donald trump, can risk the ire of the base. that is something that a lot of republican officeholders, even the ones running for president or trying to challenge donald trump for the presidential nomination, that something in the back of their head, a calculus they can not entirely put aside because they know they are going to have to deal with the consequences if their criticism becomes too sharp stop with just been handed the indictment year. figs just been handed the indictment ear. �* , just been handed the indictment ear. ~ , ., , year. as we mentioned, rudy giuliani is _ year. as we mentioned, rudy giuliani is on _ year. as we mentioned, rudy giuliani is on the _ year. as we mentioned, rudy giuliani is on the list, - year. as we mentioned, rudy giuliani is on the list, mark. giuliani is on the list, mark meadows, very senior people who worked with the former president. what is the significance of them being listed here? it significance of them being listed here?— significance of them being listed here? it means this is auoin to listed here? it means this is going to be _

listed here? it means this is going to be a _ listed here? it means this is going to be a trial— listed here? it means this is going to be a trial that - going to be a trial that doesn'tjust involve donald trump, is going to involve people who are associated with him, people like mark meadows who have prominent political careers outside of donald trump. mark meadows was an influential member of the house of representatives before becoming donald trump's chief of staff. rudolph giuliani of course was the former mayor of new york, a presidential candidate himself and was once a highly revered and is now going to be very closely associated with donald trump's not only political fate but legal fate as well. it's going to make for an interesting final twist to a long time in public life for him were now he is going be on trial, conceivably facing a jail sentence alongside the man he worked for. sentence alongside the man he worked for-— worked for. just to bring some details, 19 _ worked for. just to bring some

details, 19 individuals - worked for. just to bring some details, 19 individuals named i details, 19 individuals named on this and there are a total of 41 charges, not all of them against all individuals obviously. there are 13 charges against the former president. violation of the georgia rico act, solicitation of violation of oath by public officer, conspiracy to commit impersonating a public officer, conspiracy to commit fraud during the first degree, false statements and writings and spirits it meant filing false documents, conspiracy to commit forgery in the first degree, conspiracy to commit false statements and writings, filing false documents, solicitation of violation of oath by a public officer, false statements and writings, solicitation of violation of oath by public officer, another charge and false statements in writing so i have a list of charges there against the former resident stop listening to that list, it makes me think that a central focus of this indictment is going to be those

false elector allegations where donald trump and people around him solicited a group of individuals to present themselves as the real electors from georgia. to themselves as the real electors from georgia-— from georgia. to understand what that — from georgia. to understand what that means _ from georgia. to understand what that means you - from georgia. to understand what that means you have i from georgia. to understand what that means you have to understand how the electoral couegein understand how the electoral college in the presidential systems works. each state candidate wins that state they get to put forward their electors that go and vote for the resident and provide their electoral votes in couege their electoral votes in college and they are calculated on the congress, those votes are counted up in congress and thatis are counted up in congress and that is how the president it is determined, it is an archaic system but what donald trump ausmat people were trying to do was to get a different group of electors to come out and say donald trump one george and here are the ballots hand them to congress and have them count the ballots instead of the ones duly authorised showing joe biden had won the state of georgia. they are saying all of

that effort was illegal, that that effort was illegal, that that was fraudulent, that they were creating false documents out of it, that they were putting forward false officials, public officials to represent themselves as the real electricals from that state, and all that was a conspiracy to subvert the election in 2020, and the victory byjoe borden in georgia in that election. anthony, just stay with us here we are justjoined by sian wu and we will speak to them on the phone. we have 19 individuals here that the state of georgia was bringing charges against, the bolton county court in atlanta, 41 judges, what do you make so far about this? , , ., , this? this is a very meticulously - this? this is a very i meticulously crafted, this? this is a very - meticulously crafted, very comprehensive indictment. my

initial take is that this is the indictment that in the federal case, special counsel jack smith would have bought, might still bring if he did not have the clock ticking on him. fani willis the prosecutor in georgia has been working on this for a couple of years now, that works shows here in the breadth of what has been covered. in particular, the use of the racketeering statute, what they call rico act on the state level here, a very powerful tool for the prosecutors because it enables them to bring in folks in the conspiracy who did not necessarily all commit exactly the same acts. there are a number of specified acts here that go towards the criminal conspiracy, what they call the criminal enterprise, there is actually 160 when i was counting, it is a lot of detail

there. the reason that is so powerful for the prosecution is that of these dependence being charged, they do not all have to have done each of those 160 plus acts. if they themselves, i believe the minimum have done two of them, they are all being swept up in the net which makes it a very powerful indictment and a very powerful net, really for all of the defendants here. as you mentioned the district attorney has been going at this investigation for two and a half years, just live pictures, we have just moved off the live pictures, we are watching the press conference area where she is going to make a statement shortly. we will bring that to live when it happens. 0utlining in more detail these indictments. as you are saying there, this is a very, deep investigation and what sort of timeline do think we will be looking at for dealing with all of this? the 19 individuals

including the former president and senior aides, would they all be dealt with together at the same time or would this be separated out? it’s the same time or would this be separated out?— separated out? it's very much both a logistical _ separated out? it's very much both a logistical issue - separated out? it's very much both a logistical issue or - separated out? it's very much both a logistical issue or the l both a logistical issue or the prosecutor, and thejudge both a logistical issue or the prosecutor, and the judge as well as a legal, strategic issue for trump ausmat attorneys the prosecution. so, for the group, of defendants they are not going to want to be tried together, having done defence work i can tell you i do not want my clients sitting at a table with 20 other people because it makes it look like a criminal conspiracy. there are bound to be motions to get people tried individually and that will cause a lot of complications in the timeline. having a trial with that many defendants, it has been done, there are gang prosecutions, i remember watching one of the motorcycle gang prosecution, it

needs a courtroom where they will not be much room for spectator use or lawyers or defendants. in time you have that many people there is a lot more scheduling issues and obviously some of the people here not least of which is the former president, will have a lot of scheduling issues going on and that could really slow things down. and of course, he is lee defended, donald trump, will bejuggling several is lee defended, donald trump, will be juggling several other criminal prosecutions in addition to what he will be saying that campaign type events, iowa caucuses, coming up events, iowa caucuses, coming up soon, all these things will complicate the scheduling or at. it is hard to say exactly how quickly it could move forward, it is a complicated case. , case. indeed it is we might take advantage _ case. indeed it is we might take advantage of - case. indeed it is we might take advantage of your - case. indeed it is we might l take advantage of your legal mind and talk us through some of the counts here on the indictment. you mentioned briefly violation of the

georgia racketeer implements and corrupt organisations act, what does that mean for the former president?— former president? that particular— former president? that particular count - former president? that particular count and i former president? that| particular count and the former president? that - particular count and the facts in the account really will then go to many of the counts for false statements, tampering with witnesses, pressuring state officials and such. the rico act counter in particular is a great threat to the president because it carries a mandatory minimum sentence and that means if you are convinced —— convicted under that statute, you must be sentenced by the judge, the judge statute, you must be sentenced by thejudge, thejudge has no discretion, no say in the matter to at least five years. there is a little bit of wiggle room which is the five years does not necessarily have to be in prison, from looking at the georgia precedent and what i've heard from people who pray this is typically in georgia, the judge could break the five years off into some jail, some

home detention some probation, some mixture of that, but what is really critical is that for all of these dependence, including the former president, if convicted of the rico act they cannot escape that mandatory five years the judge will not have the discretion to say, in light of the circumstances and the criminal history, even though the statutory language might say x amount of years i am only going to give six months, or a year, that cannot happen here, it is going to be five years, and also, something in particular to georgia, as we have heard a lot of discussion about trump's ability to pardon himself if he was to become president again. in the us system he cannot pardon a state case for anyone because it a separate sovereign of this federal government, he can only pardon federal charges in the georgia system for pardons is rather different in

the federal system and the executive there the governor of georgia is very limited in what they can do, it would be essentially a in an order two which makes that decision. if convicted under that statute it is a much more grim outlook thenit is a much more grim outlook then it was under other types of crimes. then it was under other types of crimes-— then it was under other types of crimes. . . ., ., , of crimes. the crucial would be important _ of crimes. the crucial would be important to — of crimes. the crucial would be important to the _ of crimes. the crucial would be important to the president - of crimes. the crucial would be important to the president in i important to the president in terms of his hopes for re—election. in terms of the logistics could you put any kind of timeline on it, could this actually get to trial before next november? i think that is very _ before next november? i think that is very hard. _ before next november? i think that is very hard. it _ before next november? i think that is very hard. it is - that is very hard. it is possible because the prosecution will certainly be ready to go, judging from the indictment. and the discovery here that is the obligation the

prosecution has to give to the defence what documents, what evidence underlies the case, it's going to be the numinous but it is not necessarily fraught with difficulty away some of the national security issues are, for example trump's case involving retention of classified documents, very complicated, because they have to deal with the sensitivity of the documents. here, the evidence is straightforward, i still think given how many people are charged here, it could be very difficult to bring it to a trial before the election. if they all begin to split up it is possible some might go forward before the election, i think with all of these cases, the whole university of the criminal cases, it is very hard to get it done for the election, not impossible but i think it is very challenging. iiii impossible but i think it is very challenging.- impossible but i think it is very challenging. if we 'ust go back to looking * very challenging. if we 'ust go back to looking at h very challenging. if we 'ust go back to looking at the h very challenging. if we just go back to looking at the charges

again, there is the what about the siliceous cetacean violation of both by a public officer, and conspiracy of impersonating a public officer. and the rico act. that impersonating a public officer. and the rico act.— impersonating a public officer. and the rico act. that goes to the fake electoral— and the rico act. that goes to the fake electoral scheme, - the fake electoral scheme, which was to persuade people to say that they were the proper collectables when they were not, so that is the false impersonation aspect of it. the actual document they prepared, the alternative slate, which was really a fake slate that could also lead to false statements as well so the charge is the fraudulent state documents. those particular actions or go to this idea of creating an alternative slate for the elect was trying to put that forward so the state could be spun to trump. find

that forward so the state could be spun to trump.— be spun to trump. and that would be — be spun to trump. and that would be linked _ be spun to trump. and that would be linked in - be spun to trump. and that would be linked in with - be spun to trump. and that would be linked in with the | would be linked in with the conspiracy —— conspiracy to commit forgery in the first degree? commit forgery in the first decree? , ., v commit forgery in the first decree? , ., �*, . degree? yes, that's correct, the forgery _ degree? yes, that's correct, the forgery being _ degree? yes, that's correct, the forgery being the - degree? yes, that's correct, l the forgery being the creation of the fake documents, and also signing their names to those documents saying these are authentic ones.— documents saying these are authentic ones. anthony 'ust to brina authentic ones. anthony 'ust to brin: ou authentic ones. anthony 'ust to bring you back in, * authentic ones. anthony just to bring you back in, anthony - bring you back in, anthony zurcher our north america correspondence while we are awaiting this press current —— press conference from the district attorney. the fact there are 19 individuals and a number of conspiracy charges as well, what con, what will this mean for the president in terms of moving forward with running the next campaign, a lot of these people are still quite close to him?— these people are still quite close to him? it's going to be a challenge — close to him? it's going to be a challenge for— close to him? it's going to be a challenge for him. - close to him? it's going to be a challenge for him. a - close to him? it's going to be a challenge for him. a lot - close to him? it's going to be a challenge for him. a lot of. a challenge for him. a lot of these people were really close to him on the days after the presidential election because

they were the people telling him, no, there is a way to fight this, you actually won this, here is what we are going to do. they may not be quite as close advisers now, rudy giuliani is not quite a close advisor now to donald trump as he was during the presidency and those days after he lost the presidential election. it is going to be a challenge for donald trump, it may be to attract talented individuals to work for him on the campaign or on a possible trump second term in office because people around him now i getting indicted left and right. mark meadows, his chief of staff is on the is someone who has been indicted. would someone of donald trump want someone to work closely with him on his presidential campaign, someone who is competent and not super closely tied to donald trump right now, want to step into that rest, would somebody want to be his chief of staff and a new donald trump administration when the

most recent predecessor is facing a jail sentence and an extended trial. those are questions which will pose a challenge to donald trump going forward. and certainlyjust an extra level of complication as he tries to navigate not only the political challenges of running for the presidency but the legal challenges of all these different court cases now he will be involved with. just while we're _ he will be involved with. just while we're waiting for their press conference to get under way i want to be part of the introduction the indictment," defendant donald john trump lost the united states presidential election held on november third 2020, one of the states he lost was georgia. trump and the other defendants charged in this indictment refused to accept trump lost, and they knowingly and wilfully joined a conspiracy to unlawfully change the outcome of the election in favour of trump. that conspiracy contained a common plan and purpose to commit two more of

racketeering activity in fulton county georgia elsewhere in the state of georgia and in other states. and sian were a former federal prosecutor if i can just bring you back then. what you make of that how the district attorney has summed up the indictment in this introduction?- the indictment in this introduction? what is interesting _ introduction? what is interesting about - introduction? what is| interesting about that introduction? what is - interesting about that summary as this is what we in the prosecution world call a speaking indictment. what it's doing is rather thanjust doing is rather than just saying doing is rather thanjust saying here is the different numbers of the crimes and the different law numbers, it's actually laying out the story and the narrative in the indictment, and that is a very powerful tool not only for the defendants to understand the full narrative and full scope of what they are facing, which might increase the leverage, the probability they might please. but it is also in this

very historical case a really important message to the public, to lay out the story of what happened here. because certainly we have all heard bits and pieces of it from the january set committee hearings, it is being played in the press, but here when you are actually charging defendants with the crimes, it is especially important to explain it, the narrative that interweaves, the laws that were broken, and what actions actually go to each of the laws that were broken.— that were broken. how do you think that _ that were broken. how do you think that narrative, _ that were broken. how do you think that narrative, this - think that narrative, this indictment will be received by those who do support the former president? i those who do support the former resident? ~ , ., president? i think they are already choosing _ president? i think they are already choosing it - president? i think they are already choosing it out, i president? i think they are l already choosing it out, they see this as another part of an attempt to stop donald trump from regaining political power. that this is the establishment pushing back against donald

trump. that is the way they view jack trump. that is the way they viewjack smith, the trump. that is the way they view jack smith, the special counsel's indictment, which if you read the speaking indictment that jack smith handed out in his case, also covering attempts to overturn the 2020 presidential election, a lot of that will seem very familiar. this is ground that has already been covered in the federal case, this is now a state case laying out a similar line of arguments, donald trump lost and refused to accept it, he took steps that were illegal to try to reverse the election. nothing in this i don't think will change their minds, if it was not changed and that federal indictment. i will point out the way the american system works is that even though it is the same crime been charged by the federal prosecutors and being charged by state prosecutors, donald trump could stand trial twice for it because it is two separate solvents, the federal government wringing its case and donald trump could

conceivably win that case and be found not guilty and