their polling numbers are down and they stand accused of breaking a host of political promises. my guest is the leader of the snp and first minister of scotland, humza yousaf. has his party lost its way? first minister humza yousaf, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. by any measure, first minister, it's been a pretty difficult first year for you as first minister. why do you think the going is so tough? look, we've been in government for 17 years. over 17 years, you have challenges, of course, as a government. but in the last year...

i often get asked that question about challenges. i prefer to look at the opportunity. and in the last year, we've had modelling that shows we'll lift 100,000 children out of poverty, we've had statistics just last month showing that we've had record numbers ofjunior doctors joining the nhs, we've had statistics that show that school leavers, record levels are going to positive destinations. and just in february, the turn of this year, we've seen that private sector employment growth is outstripping any other nation or region of the uk here in scotland. so challenges — plenty. 0pportunities — plenty as well. and that's why, probably, because of that success, the last two polls that have come out, of course, have shown the snp in lead position come a general election, whenever that may be. what about, if i may, the shadow and the uncertainty that comes with, i have to say, an extensive police investigation into "potential embezzlement and fraud" at the heart of the snp. it's an investigation which has, of course, involved your predecessor,

nicola sturgeon, and her husband, peter murrell, who was the former chief executive of the snp. they've been arrested, they've been released. the police haven't charged them, they've denied any wrongdoing. but would you at least accept this is a massive cloud now hanging over your party? i've never denied that the police investigation will clearly have issues, have challenges, present us with challenges, and voters will undoubtedly be concerned about the police investigation that's ongoing. i'm being really upfront and honest with you. those... that issue is not in my control. and one of the best bits of advice i got when i became first minister was, "you're only in control of what you're in control of. "everything else, you're going to have to do your best "to try to eitherjust deal with it when it comes up "or, frankly, where appropriate, ignore." and the police investigation is not in my gift to determine when it concludes. that, rightly, is in the hands

of the police, and they should take the time they need and they require to thoroughly investigate that particular issue. ultimately, i've got to stand on the track record of this government. whatever my predecessor's legacy and record is is an important record in government. i've got to build on that and i've got to make sure that we're trusted on the issues that matter to people. you were health minister here in scotland between 2021 and 2023. when it comes to health, the snp, given the context it knows about, its relationship with westminster, it's set certain targets, important targets — for child and adult mental health treatment, for emergency waiting times, for cancer treatment waiting times, for the intake of new staff — and you have routinely missed all of these targets. so let's talk about two things. first of all, let's talk about the context, cos context is exceptionally important... well, let's just talk about your record. well, indeed, let's talk about the record. but the record is in a context. and that context, of course,

is the global pandemic. so when it comes to the health service in scotland, run by the snp — and i'll talk to scotland's record in just a second — or whether it's the health service in wales, which is run by labour, or the health service in england, run by the conservatives, or the northern irish health service, every single health service in the uk — and i suspect a number of them across the world — have suffered significant challenge because of the global pandemic. the pandemic... and the welsh people will ask for an accountability with their government... i will absolutely... ..the english people with theirs... when it comes to health... i will talk to this... ..the scottish people hold you to account. and i will talk about the scottish record. my point is, to suggest somehow that this is unique to scotland would be absolutely incorrect... i never said that. but there are some things that are unique to scotland. when one looks at the number of people who die as a result of drug abuse, scotland is far out in front of any other of the uk nations. it's also far out ahead of other nations in europe. when one looks at longevity, scotland has a much worse record, with actual average lifespan going down in scotland at a rate that is not seen in other parts of the united kingdom or other parts of europe. these are scottish problems.

well, let's talk about the scottish challenges, cos there are some unique challenges in scotland but also unique opportunity in scotland. we have the best performing a&e departments anywhere in the uk for the last eight years. in scotland, of course, we're the only nation in the uk that averted both nhs nursing strikes and, indeed, junior doctor strikes. we are, of course, the part of the uk where we have record health spending, front line spending, per head of the population. in terms of those unique challenges, i'm not going to argue with you. the level of drugs deaths in scotland is still far too high. and you're right to quote the statistics in comparison to the rest of the uk... and you're the first minister who says that you want to decriminalise all personal use of drugs. am i right? yes. the party policy and the policy of the government is that we produced a paper based on evidence... and you think that'll help this problem in scotland? well, if you look at the issue and how that's helped, for example, in portugal, there's been a significant decrease in drugs deaths because of decriminalisation for possession.

and that is the point. let's look at radical approaches, because the approaches that we've taken in the past clearly haven't worked. how do you think the scottish people felt when they learned, thanks to the scottish covid inquiry, that you sent a whatsapp message to the national clinical director, jason leitch, cheerfully admitting that you as health minister were "winging it" and you worried you'll get found out sooner rather than later. you've described that as "jocular". do you think the scottish people feel that way about it? i think people understand that private messages were intended to be that. you're far more flippant, colloquial in private messages between colleagues... but "winging it". .. ..or between friends. ..in a pandemic where thousands of scottish people...? it was talking about one interview, stephen, so let's not overhype. i mean, i've chapped a number of doors, talked to a number of people on the doorsteps,

and, amazingly, not a single person has referenced the whatsapp conversations... well, it's sort of interesting you say that, cos, again, i know as a politician, you keep an eye on polling on specific matters. according to polling on health, 56% of scots say that the snp has done a poor or a bad job on health, 22% saying they have positive feelings about. and the point is that you were health minister, so this is very relevant to you. so a few things to say. first and foremost, of course, we're the most trusted in terms of the pandemic response. and what was shown time and time again is our trust ratings when it came to the pandemic response were far better than trust ratings of other governments across the uk. the second point about the health service — and i don't doubt that this is probably the most significant issue, alongside the cost—of—living crisis... mm—hm. ..for most people — but the nhs, we stand on a proud track record of what we've been able to achieve. but the context of this is, of course, the pandemic has been the biggest shock that our health service has faced in its 75—year existence. i'm not going to pretend to the scottish public

that it's going to take anything other than a number of years to recover through that. but we can demonstrate that recovery by the fact that we have, as i say, more junior doctors joining the nhs, the best—paid staff not going on strike, of course, unique to scotland in comparison to other uk health services. here's what's interesting to me. we've discussed already significant challenges facing scotland, and yet as we speak to each other right now, what is actually consuming the headlines in this country and, actually, international headlines, too, and it's a piece of legislation which you asjustice minister a few years back championed. it's known as the hate crime and public order act, something which seems to have got scots at war with each other for no clear purpose. do you regret being one of the architects of that piece of legislation? no, i'm very proud of that legislation. are you? absolutely. that legislation... let's just again provide some context. the stirring—up offences against racial hatred have protected me as an individual since 1986, so most of my life —

i was born in 1985. sure, but this extends the act... well, exactly. ..and changes it. that's exactly the point. now, because i'm protected as a person of colour against racial hatred being stirred up against me, why should somebody not be protected because of their disability, or because they're gay, or because they're transgender, or because they'rejewish? well, they absolutely should be protected in the same way that i'm protected because of my colour. so, for me, the extension of that protection, where the threshold is unbelievably high... so the criminal threshold to meet the new stirring—up offences, your behaviour has to be threatening or abusive and it has to be intended to stir up hatred. and, of course, for all of that, there are a whole bunch of safeguards in place. it's complicated. the police in scotland have now pledged — and they have to, they have a duty — to investigate every hate crime complaint. you've just indicated there are all these different categories it can come under now. the police now have a massive job. the general secretary of the police federation says it is a recipe for disaster.

he says officers haven't been properly trained on how to deal with this, the police don't have time to deal with it. and he's pointed out that they're really struggling to deal with crime in scotland as it is, and this is a massive new burden on top. it doesn't make sense. well, let's look at the stats and the figures. crime is at one of its lowest levels in a0 years. that's the record of the snp in the last 17 years that we've been in charge. so, record levels, one of its record low levels of crime. secondly, record investment in police scotland thanks to the budget that we announced for 24/25. and let's look at the fact that, of course, when it comes to complaints that come in around hate crime, the police are exceptionally well trained, in terms of how to deal with... well, they say they're not. they've already had thousands. it only came on april1— they've already have thousands of complaints. that's not what the chief constable has said. the chief constable has made it really clear that officers have been trained, officers will continue to receive training.

but, of course, dealing with hate crime is not something new for the police. they know how to deal with hate crime. your own party colleague, joanna cherry, westminster mp, says that the hate crime laws are being weaponised to silence gender—critical women. it is a thought echoed by many feminists — they would describe themselves as — across scotland. are you too now worried about what this is going to do to freedom of speech on one very important social issue? no, i don't. and i see no evidence of people being silenced in terms of their gender—critical views. any cursory glance at any social media platform would suggest to you that those views are not being silenced. are you talking aboutjk rowling? neither... of course, the famous writer, she lives in scotland. she, in the last few days, has made a point of using her social media platform to once again say to scotland and to the world that transgender women

are not women, they are men. she says, "freedom of speech and belief are at an end "in scotland if the accurate description of biological sex "is deemed criminal," and she has invited the police to investigate her. now, the police say they're not going to... well, that's exactly the point! exactly. but you know what the real point is? there are now hundreds of transgender activists in your country who say that if this law is to mean anything... you can't have it both ways... ..thenjk rowling must be investigated. i'm afraid you can't have it both ways, stephen. so whatjk rowling has managed to prove, if anything, is, of course, that simply putting out tweets that may well be ones that i absolutely disagree with, and they may be offensive, hurtful... do you disagree with them? yes, i do disagree with jk rowling on a lot of her tweets. and do you think she's peddling hate? can ijust... can you just let me finish my point here? the point is that she then invited police to explore and examine her tweets. and the police made the obvious point —

and it would be obvious to anybody who read the legislation — that they weren't going to meet the criminal threshold of the stirring—up offences that are in the act. so she's just... but, with respect, it isn't obvious to many transgender activists in scotland... no, no... ..who say that if this act is to mean anything, then there has to be a proper investigation. this act... there was a proper investigation by police. the point of the act is to stop these stirring—up offences, stirring up of hatred against a number of protected groups. we also, of course, have the common statutory aggravator framework, which has been consolidated and also been extended within the act as well. butjk rowling has managed to prove the point that for anybody who actually reads the legislation, there is a high threshold for criminality. so i wasn't at all shocked. i don't know anybody, really, who read the legislation that was shocked that police scotland would not... let me just ask you, if i may, a very simple question, cos you're first minister of scotland, your voice matters. is very publicly misgendering trans people —

as those trans people would see it — misgendering trans people, is it threatening, abusive or insulting? look, i'm not going to be caught into this binary. it's deeply offensive. well, it's not binary... no... i'm trying to understand what this legislation — which you've championed — actually means. for the stirring up of hatred, your behaviour has to be either threatening or abusive and intended to stir up hatred. misgendering somebody is unlikely to end up to meet those high criminal thresholds. the thresholds are deliberately very high. misgendering somebody who's transgender, i think, is deeply offensive and upsetting, but the legislation isn't dealing with upsetting or offensive. it's dealing with behaviour that's threatening or abusive and intended to stir up hatred. rightly, parliament agreed to a very high criminal threshold because that is what is required. interestingly, you too have also been reported under the new hate crime legislation. and it actually, for many scots who've reported you, goes back to a speech

you made in 2020, where you went through a whole series of important senior public posts in scotland which are held by white people. and you made a very powerful point about how "white, white, white" so many important positions in scotland are. and you said, "it's not good enough." now, scotland is 96% white, and there are some very active people — particularly on social media — who are saying, "humza yousaf�*s message was essentially racist, "it was anti—white, and i, for one, feel that this "is stirring up hatred against me as a white person." the police aren't interested. they say it's nonsense. they're certainly not going to investigate... of course it is. but...but under the new legislation, the police also have to, as i understand it, record it as a non—criminal hate incident and you will be named. how do you feel about that? so a couple of points to make. the description of those who reference that speech as hatred, i've not seen anybody who has described it in that way that isn't, frankly, part of the far—right.

the speech was in support of black lives matters. i was making the point, of course, that people of colour need to be better represented in senior roles. and i'm proud to be the first person of colour who's now first minister and the first muslim leader of any western nation. the second point i'd make around non—crime hate incidents being reported...or recorded — that's a matter for police scotland. but remember — the reason for non—crime hate incidents being recorded is part of, of course, the recommendation from the stephen lawrence inquiry. it was part of the macpherson report. so it's really for the police to decide how they record it. you've seen another spike in hate directed towards you, and, as you say, you're the first muslim leader of a government in western europe. i just wonder whether you worry about the degree to which you and your family right now are being targeted by hate in this country? i worry about hatred towards my family in particular. 0bviously, i'm somewhat used to it. and that's not necessarily meaning that it's acceptable

in any way, shape or form, but any cursory glance at social media would show to you death threats towards me, on a regular basis, and i'm afraid that's somewhat part and parcel of being a person of colour... do you feel scotland to be racist? look, scotland, like any other country in the world, has issues around institutional and structural racism. there's no doubt about that. of course. ..of course we have racism in scotland. we have racism in every single country. there's no doubt that scotland is not immune to racism. let me ask you briefly, if i may, about gaza. members of yourfamily, your wife's family, live in gaza. indeed, her parents were stuck, trapped in gaza for several weeks after the israeli military operation began after october 7, after the hamas attacks in israel. they eventually were able to leave, but you've got many relatives still inside. it's tough, but are you able to communicate with those relatives relatively easily at the moment? and are they all 0k? so, my wife still has some family in north gaza,

still has a cousin in south gaza — or central gaza, actually. and the situation, stephen, is beyond the worst catastrophe that any of us could imagine. and the scenes that we see regularly on the media don't quite depict just how bad it really is. you called very early on for a ceasefire. it's a call which the british government hasn't echoed in the same terms that you've used. do you want to go further now? do you want to see the uk government stop all arms deliveries to israel? i think the uk government has to stop arms sales to israel. let's. .. why? well, let'sjust look at the events of the last couple of days — aid workers killed by an israeli strike. if the uk continues to provide arms to a government that has killed women and children, has killed aid workers, has bombed schools,

bombed refugee camps, bombed un facilities, then, in my eyes, that makes the uk government complicit. and i don't want to be... complicit in what? be explicit. complicit in the killing of innocent people and innocent civilians. are you saying israel has committed war crimes? i've got no doubt in my mind that the evidence that we've seen certainly suggests that war crimes have been committed. i don't know anybody who thinks otherwise. see, israel says it's prosecuting a military operation against hamas. of course, hamas launched a massive attack on israel on october 7, and it says in pursuit of hamas, in pursuit of a legitimate military strategy, unfortunately, because of hamas�*s tactics, they end up killing innocent civilians — not with intent, but because that's the way hamas has buried itself inside a civilian population. i'm afraid... so let's go back to october 7. ..that there's no debate

here in the fact that that was a disgraceful terror attack by hamas, and hamas are a terrorist organisation who absolutely, of course, should be held to account for the terrorism they committed on october 7. but israel's response has gone beyond a legitimate response. and what i would say is, when you ask the question about breaches of international law, let's just take collective punishment as an example. you cannot collectively punish 2.2 million people for the crimes that were committed by a small number — horrendous crimes, dreadful crimes, atrocious crimes — but you cannot hold 2.2 million people responsible and use starvation, frankly, as a weapon of war. thing is, ijust wonder whether you as first minister are trying to run an independent foreign policy here, cos not so long ago, you had a bilateral meeting with president erdogan of turkey. protocol in the uk means that you should have had a foreign office representative at that meeting. you didn't. david cameron... that's not strictly true,

actually. i mean, we can hold international meetings wherever and whenever we want. it's pretty clear in the scotland act. we can't enter into foreign treaties, and that's understandable... lord cameron, who is foreign secretary, issued a reprimand. he said you shouldn't have done that. well, he is mistaken to have done that. and i will speak... i've requested to speak to lord cameron. and so far, he's ignored my request, i should say. as long as we don't enter into foreign treaties — which we've never done — and as long as, of course, we don't purport to speak... for the uk government — which we never do, it's very clear we're speaking on behalf of the scottish government — we can continue in our external affairs engagement. i need to end with just one big—picture thought about snp strategy. you want another independence referendum... the people of scotland have voted for another... yeah, but the point is, you're not going to get it and you know you're not going to get it. your predecessor, nicola sturgeon, said, "oh, well, if we're not going to get it, "then the next election will be a de facto referendum "here in scotland." she said, "let's see if we win over 50% of the scottish vote

"at the next general election. "if we do, that will be a form of mandate." you appear to have shifted position. you now seem to be saying that if the snp simply wins a majority of westminster seats, then that must be enough to trigger negotiations on independence, ie, to be a mandate for independence. how can you possibly believe that? this may be a novel idea — i don't think it is — but if you win an election, i genuinely believe you should be able to then fulfil the manifesto that you've been elected on. so that's my proposition. my proposition is "give us the second independence referendum "because the people of scotland have elected "a pro—independence majority in the scottish parliament." they've elected the snp time and again on the mandate for a second referendum. if you refuse to do that, then you know what? we'll put it on page one, line one of our manifesto that a vote for the snp is a vote for scotland to be an independent country. if we win that election, then

we'll begin the discussions and negotiations with the uk government... the point is, if you get, let's say, 35% of the vote in that election, will you accept that this issue has gone away, your dream... not at all. ..of independence has gone away? what you're asking me is, "if we win the election that we'll be putting independence "front and centre on, has the issue gone away?" that is ludicrous. if we win an election with independence front and centre of that campaign, that to me suggests that people have got a continued appetite for pursuing the issue of independence. and ultimately, stephen, as true democrats — i'm sure if there were true democrats in the uk government — they could resolve this issue tomorrow. they could hold a referendum, they could grant the permission of a referendum. and i'll tell you what. the reason why they're scared — or as we say in scotland, why they're feart — to hold a referendum is because i suspect they know that they would lose it. we have to end there. humza yousaf, thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you, stephen.

thank you. hello. monday was quite a quiet day of weather, really. we had some sunny spells breaking through the cloud, for example, here in cambridgeshire. and across large parts of england, it was a warm day for april, with temperatures topping out at 19 degrees celsius at kew in london. these temperatures are around 5 or 6 degrees above average. it's going to be a much cooler kind of day for tuesday. notjust cooler, it's going to be wet and windy for many as well. the change is down to an area of low pressure. this area of cloud you can see swirling to the southwest of the uk and that's essentially pushing northwards and eastwards over the next 12 hours. we already have quite a bit of rain with us at the moment and the rain across northern ireland and scotland could be heavy enough to cause some localised flooding. 20—a0mm of rain, not a huge amount in the grand scheme of things, however, edinburgh,

for example, has already had over 1.5 times the april average rainfall, even though we're onlyjust over a week into the new month. so this extra rainfall could be enough to cause some localised flooding. the weather will tend to brighten up from the west as we go through the day. sunshine and showers follow our main band of rain through. it's also going to be a windy, gusty kind of day. particularly for england and wales, gusts widely running into the 40s of miles a hour, but could reach around 50 or 60mph around some coastal areas, with the rain reluctant to clear away from eastern scotland and parts of northeast england. 0ur temperatures are about 10 to 12 degrees for most. now, that will clear through and we're left with some colder air as we head into the first part of wednesday. potentially chilly enough to give an odd nip of frost for the early part of wednesday morning. should be a fine start to the day with sunshine. then it clouds over with the next weather system moving in from the west, bringing more rain. now, even as the rain pushes through across wales and southwest england, it probably will stay rather cloudy, the weather that follows. however, it will start to turn

a bit milder again with southwesterly winds, temperatures around 13—15 degrees. and that warming trend continues as we head into thursday. again, we've got southwesterly winds with us, but this time, after a cloudy start, the clouds should tend to thin and break up and we'll see some spells of sunshine coming through quite widely. yeah, there'll be a few showers for the north and west of scotland, but otherwise, it's mostly dry. and those temperatures — 17 for aberdeen, 17 for belfast, but highs could reach around 19 or 20 across parts of eastern england. it stays pretty mild then towards wales and england as we head into the weekend. temperatures could reach the low 20s for some.

live from london, this is bbc news. another climate record tumbles, as scientists say last month was the hottest march on record. gazans return to the devastation in khan younis after months of intense fighting. stunning images as millions witness a once—in—a—lifetime solar eclipse. and the post office inquiry continues today. lead campaigner alan bates is due to give evidence later this morning. hello, i'm sally bundock.

we begin in europe where scientists say last month was the hottest march ever recorded. new figures from the eu's copernicus climate service extend the world's run of record—breaking air temperatures to ten months in a row. the average was 0.1 celsius above the previous high set in 2016, a significant margin by global standards. 0ur climate editor justin rowlatt reports. last week the president of zimbabwe declared a national disaster because of a deep drought in the country. low rainfall slashed crop yields, driving up food prices and putting an estimated 2.7 million people at risk of hunger. it isjust million people at risk of hunger. it is just one example of a pattern of heat and drought affecting countries as far afield as southern europe and south east asia. this graph shows how marsh continue the wells are run of

record—breaking monthly