the mp who gave personal phone numbers of colleagues to someone he met on grindr is no longer a conservative mp. william wragg has �*voluntarily�* given up the tory whip. why didn't the prime minister make the decision for him? nick watt will bring you the latest. also tonight — this ex—postmaster watched the real alan bates give evidence for the first time to the post office inquiry today, as the long wait forjustice continues. and — how should children with gender dysphoria be treated? following a newsnight investigation, two years ago an interim report into the tavistock gender service led to its closure. tomorrow, we hear the recommendations for how future care should happen. hannah barnes, who produced newsnight�*s tavistock investigation, is here. good evening. the politician at the centre of the westminster sexting scandal has tonight voluntarily given up the conservative whip. william wragg last week told the times he gave mps�* personal phone numbers to someone he met

on grindr after sending intimate pictures of himself to the user. the now independent mp for hazel grove said he was scared that they "had compromising things on me". some are asking why the prime minister didn't remove the tory whip from his mp forjeopardising colleagues�* safety. let's talk to nick. what has happened tonight? in let's talk to nick. what has happened tonight?- let's talk to nick. what has happened tonight? in the last few hours we had _ happened tonight? in the last few hours we had that _ happened tonight? in the last few hours we had that statement - happened tonight? in the last few| hours we had that statement from happened tonight? in the last few- hours we had that statement from the government saying william wragg has voluntary relinquish to conserve whip following his decision last night that he was stepping back from role as vice chair of the committee of conservative mps and standing down as chair of the public administration select committee in the house of commons. now friend said these steps needed to happen but that william wragg needed to do it himself and it looks like this

decision for him not to have the whip any more was not forced on him. there is agreement in cabinet that he is vulnerable at the moment and there is a duty of care to him. what we reported also last night is that patience is growing thin with william wragg in cabinet and tonight we have rick holden the concerta chair who was on the way of saying it was the right thing to do to relinquish the whip. but then nick holden said it is clear that his career in public life is at an end. so pretty much saying thank you and goodbye. and william wragg was always going to stand down at the general election and that clearly shows that they really want him out of the way. and there is a belief that he will face a lot more questions, there is a police investigation into this, and the parliamentary authorities are looking into it and there is a belief that as this is looked into we may well find that he had a bigger role for example notjust

handing out mobile numbers or was he providing that information as we said last night and many people thought when they received that text. �* . . , thought when they received that text. ~ . . , _ text. and what are his friend saying this evening? _ text. and what are his friend saying this evening? some _ text. and what are his friend saying this evening? some are _ text. and what are his friend saying this evening? some are really - this evening? some are really distraught. — this evening? some are really distraught, they _ this evening? some are really distraught, they believe - this evening? some are really distraught, they believe that l distraught, they believe that william wragg made a terrible mistake and it is right that he should step back but they are saying that he is in a vulnerable position and what he needs is support. and there is absolute fury that some supporters of borisjohnson are seeking to re—litigate the downfall of borisjohnson and the role of william wragg in that. william wragg was clear he did not support boris johnson in his final year and his friends say in a democracy you are entitled to say if you do not think the leader of your party is the right person. but in the daily mail newspaper nadine dorries had an article all about the role of

william wragg in that. so what his friends are saying is where is the compassion about a man who made a mistake and it is in a vulnerable position, talking about how this is score settling and that it feels like another proxy war. and they believe it is getting quite ugly now. the former downing street director of communications guto harri joins us now. is this some kind of proxy war as nick was suggesting? hat is this some kind of proxy war as nick was suggesting?— is this some kind of proxy war as nick was suggesting? not at all, as far as i'm concerned. _ nick was suggesting? not at all, as far as i'm concerned. william - nick was suggesting? not at all, as | far as i'm concerned. william wragg i think was handed the equivalent of a revolver and a glass of brandy. nothing to do with the former prime minister borisjohnson. and he did what he thought was the decent thing. and has drawn the conclusion

that his career is over and has bowed out. that his career is over and has bowed out-— that his career is over and has bowed out. ,, ., , ,, . ~ . bowed out. should rishi sunak have made the decision? _ bowed out. should rishi sunak have made the decision? i _ bowed out. should rishi sunak have made the decision? i have - bowed out. should rishi sunak have made the decision? i have a - bowed out. should rishi sunak have made the decision? i have a lot - bowed out. should rishi sunak have made the decision? i have a lot of. made the decision? i have a lot of sympathy. — made the decision? i have a lot of sympathy, whether _ made the decision? i have a lot of sympathy, whether people - made the decision? i have a lot of sympathy, whether people will. sympathy, whether people will reflect upon this in the case of borisjohnson or some of the decisions made by keir starmer, that when you are a leader you do need to show that due process matters and you do not actually fire anyone on the basis of rumour or innuendo or even a kind of feverish bloodlust press hounding you. i think rishi sunak on this occasion acted wisely just as i thought at the time that borisjohnson at just as i thought at the time that boris johnson at the just as i thought at the time that borisjohnson at the time was reluctant to fire some people. you do not fire people and drive them out of politics and humiliate them

in public without proper due process as well as very conclusive strong reasons for doing so. i do as well as very conclusive strong reasons for doing so.— as well as very conclusive strong reasons for doing so. i do not want to no reasons for doing so. i do not want to go over — reasons for doing so. i do not want to go over old _ reasons for doing so. i do not want to go over old ground _ reasons for doing so. i do not want to go over old ground but - reasons for doing so. i do not want to go over old ground but the - reasons for doing so. i do not wantj to go over old ground but the thing about chris pincher is that boris johnson night he ever knew about any specific complaints about his behaviour and that was a lie. i’m behaviour and that was a lie. i'm talkin: behaviour and that was a lie. i'm talking about _ behaviour and that was a lie. in talking about the period before then when people were saying on the basis of rumour and allegations, some of which were in a newspaper that someone who was vulnerable as we are being told tonight by friends of another mp if you like, that there was not a lot of compassion then. i think at the time borisjohnson was trying to look for due process and look for a trigger. which was when finally the complaint was made to the parliamentary authorities. i do not think there was ever a complaint to the police and i think that we needed at least that level of

trigger before a process that led to the removal of the whip. for trigger before a process that led to the removal of the whip.— the removal of the whip. for the record there _ the removal of the whip. for the record there was _ the removal of the whip. for the record there was a _ the removal of the whip. for the record there was a formal - the removal of the whip. for the - record there was a formal complaint about chris pincher in 2019 when he was in the foreign office when boris johnson was foreign secretary. let me ask you about what william wragg has done, dame andrewjenkins a fellow tory mp said he was an idiot for compromising security. 0ther for compromising security. other people have used stronger words than idiot. there are real world consequences to what he has done. yes i think it is bad manners to say the least and bad behaviour. i do not hand over the numbers of politicians or presenters to anyone without checking with them in the first base and to do so is just bad behaviour. but i do not know if it is a hanging offence. and you've ended up with the right kind of outcome where a man who has i think deemed himself unfit to be in public

life has bowed out gracefully at the end of a long line of embarrassing twists and turns. i do not not know if more to come out but yet again people try to say that a prime minister or leader of the opposition should hesitate before establishing the facts and just to give someone the facts and just to give someone the breathing space to make a wise decision. because then we end up hounding everyone out of public life. you have got a decent outcome tonight and that is the end of the matter. do not start chasing rishi sunak about when he knew and what is concerned is a very obscure mp who has now left politics.— has now left politics. thank you for bein: with has now left politics. thank you for being with us- _ has now left politics. thank you for being with us. nick, _ has now left politics. thank you for being with us. nick, is— has now left politics. thank you for being with us. nick, is that - has now left politics. thank you for being with us. nick, is that the - has now left politics. thank you forj being with us. nick, is that the end of it? h0 being with us. nick, is that the end ofit? .,, , being with us. nick, is that the end ofit? , , , of it? no because they will be investigations _ of it? no because they will be investigations into _ of it? no because they will be investigations into what - of it? no because they will be - investigations into what happened, there are people with deep concerns and the parliamentary authorities are clearly worried about the

security breach so it will be looked at. interesting that mention of borisjohnson at. interesting that mention of boris johnson following due at. interesting that mention of borisjohnson following due process and one of the things that william wragg, that his friends are saying is that it's important that if he came forward and if he had the whip removed immediately would that discourage other people from coming forward in a situation like this. thank you very much. alan bates gave evidence for the first time to the post office inquiry today — it was almost 2a years ago — 2a — that he first warned the post office of issues with the horizon computer software. for most of that time he said the organisation had tried to silence him. post office terminated my contract and gave me three months' notice without giving me a reason for doing so. purely because in my belief that i kept raising problems and concerns

over the horizon system due to a number of faults i have found over the years. mr bates told the inquiry that the government must be held responsible for its part in the large—scale miscarriage of justice. he said the government had pumped "huge amounts of money" into the post office but hadn't wanted to engage with him on issues with the technology. as you got to meet people and realised it was notjust yourself and you saw the harm and injustice that had been descended upon them, it was something you felt you had to deal with. it was something you felt you had to dealwith. something it was something you felt you had to deal with. something you felt you had to deal with, something you could not put down. and you had the support of the rest of the group as well. mr support of the rest of the group as well. ~ �* ., , support of the rest of the group as well. ~ 1, , ,., support of the rest of the group as well. ~ , ,., , well. mr bates explaining why he did not aet u- well. mr bates explaining why he did not get no the _ well. mr bates explaining why he did not get up the fight _ well. mr bates explaining why he did not get up the fight for _ well. mr bates explaining why he did not get up the fight forjustice. - hundreds of subpostmasters were wrongly prosecuted for theft or false accounting because the horizon system was faulty.

let's talk to christopher head, former subpostmaster from west boldon in sunderland. he took it over when he was 18, he ended up being accused wrongly — by the post office of an £88,500 shortfall. thank you for being with us. why did you want to be there today? it was important to support allen for the work he has done over the years and to hear exactly what was communicated with the post office from an early stage. we've heard things but what we reveal today is that they knew ten years before that. and it seems to be what you could only describe as a cover—up. and that is what struck you today that they knew those years ago? he: made the point very clearly, that even government ministers were

aware. and these decisions ultimately cost lives. there was a criminal investigation into you — that was dropped after 6 months and then the post office brought a civil case against you — what impact did that have on you? to reclaim the money they wrongly said you had lost or stolen. you you had done nothing _ said you had lost or stolen. you you had done nothing wrong _ said you had lost or stolen. you you had done nothing wrong but - said you had lost or stolen. you you had done nothing wrong but had - said you had lost or stolen. you you had done nothing wrong but had no | had done nothing wrong but had no way of proving it and it was that kind of feeling of being guilty and trying to prove your innocence rather than innocent until proven guilty. you did not have access i would say to the depths of the system to prove through the documents that you had done nothing wrong. just reams of paper to try to find out if you had missed something. and the post office always insisted that you must�*ve done something wrong and you doubted your own ability. and that civil case has gone on for almost five

years from me before it was dropped in 2020. it was just a consistent battle to prove that what i was saying was the truth. in battle to prove that what i was saying was the truth.— saying was the truth. in terms of that grouo _ saying was the truth. in terms of that group litigation _ saying was the truth. in terms of that group litigation which - saying was the truth. in terms of that group litigation which the i saying was the truth. in terms of. that group litigation which the post office defended, with the government as a shareholder, it spent £100 million trying to pursue you through the courts or defend themselves in the courts or defend themselves in the courts or defend themselves in the courts to say nothing wrong with the courts to say nothing wrong with the system. and alan bates today said in the year 2000 he was writing to them saying i think there are problems with horizon. it is just unbelievable. it problems with horizon. it is 'ust unbelievable.�* problems with horizon. it is 'ust unbelievable. , , ., , ., unbelievable. it is unbelievable and they thought _ unbelievable. it is unbelievable and they thought that _ unbelievable. it is unbelievable and they thought that case _ unbelievable. it is unbelievable and they thought that case so _ they thought that case so aggressively and seeing what we are seeing today, you cannot describe it as anything other than a cover—up. what we need to find out from the inquiry evidence is exactly who was

involved in that cover—up. because we have many people in the post office and people in fujitsu and in government that made this decision is to try to bury this case at all costs. and it almost did that, it almost happened. and if they had got away with it we would not be where we are today. away with it we would not be where we are today-— away with it we would not be where we are today. have you heard about financial redress? _ we are today. have you heard about financial redress? i— we are today. have you heard about financial redress? i put _ we are today. have you heard about financial redress? i put in _ we are today. have you heard about financial redress? i put in my- we are today. have you heard about financial redress? i put in my claim | financial redress? i put in my claim in september _ financial redress? i put in my claim in september last _ financial redress? i put in my claim in september last year— financial redress? i put in my claim in september last year put - financial redress? i put in my claim| in september last year put together with forensic accountants that the government approved. that was backed up government approved. that was backed up with tax records and disclosure from myself and the post office and they made an offer in december that was 13% of the value of the claim. these are professional experts that prepare these. 0bviously these are professional experts that prepare these. obviously we rejected that outright. the? prepare these. obviously we re'ected that outright.— that outright. they are overdue 13% ofthe that outright. they are overdue 1396 of the value — that outright. they are overdue 1396 of the value of _ that outright. they are overdue 1396 of the value of what _ that outright. they are overdue 1396 of the value of what you _ that outright. they are overdue 1396 of the value of what you claimed? l of the value of what you claimed? yes, i described it as insulting at the time. and we had this rhetoric

going around that they would play, that they would pay full and fair compensation. but that is not the reality on the ground. 50 compensation. but that is not the reality on the ground.— reality on the ground. so you re'ected reality on the ground. so you rejected and _ reality on the ground. so you rejected and what _ reality on the ground. so you | rejected and what happened? reality on the ground. so you - rejected and what happened? so they invited us to what _ rejected and what happened? so they invited us to what they _ rejected and what happened? so they invited us to what they called - invited us to what they called mediation. they made it clear that the aim was to negotiate and reach a settlement. i describe that is being conducted in bad faith. because they were not authorised to negotiate. so were not authorised to negotiate. so we made that clear and rejected it again. did they up it. last thursday we received an _ did they up it. last thursday we received an e-mail _ did they up it. last thursday we received an e-mail and - did they up it. last thursday we received an e-mail and they - did they up it. last thursday we i received an e-mail and they upped did they up it. last thursday we - received an e-mail and they upped it received an e—mail and they upped it to 20%. £371 received an e-mail and they upped it to 2096. ., , ., received an e-mail and they upped it to 20%. a, , g, a a, received an e-mail and they upped it to 2096— we i received an e-mail and they upped it i to 2096— we have to 2096. of what you claimed? we have moved u ., to 2096. of what you claimed? we have moved up- i— to 2096. of what you claimed? we have moved up- i try — to 2096. of what you claimed? we have moved up- i try to _ to 2096. of what you claimed? we have moved up. i try to look— to 2096. of what you claimed? we have moved up. i try to look at _ to 2096. of what you claimed? we have moved up. i try to look at the _ moved up. i try to look at the positive. but we are not supposed to be going through this litigation process. they are supposed to pay compensation and it not happening.

what do you think of that? it is what do you think of that? it is frustrating _ what do you think of that? it is frustrating and _ what do you think of that? it is frustrating and a _ what do you think of that? it 3 frustrating and a annoying, their telling you in the media they're putting things right, but it is not happening. it is another battle. i have described this as a war. each thing is like a battle within that war to try and win one at time. hagar war to try and win one at time. how many battles _ war to try and win one at time. how many battles do _ war to try and win one at time. how many battles do you _ war to try and win one at time. how many battles do you need to fight? it is enough! many battles do you need to fight? it is enough!— it is enough! everyone wants to be move on rebuild _ it is enough! everyone wants to be move on rebuild their— it is enough! everyone wants to be move on rebuild their lives. i it is enough! everyone wants to be move on rebuild their lives. once i move on rebuild their lives. once the financial redress is forthcoming we can allow for everybody to move on they need accountability and they need. ~ ., on they need accountability and they need. . ., ., , ., ~' on they need accountability and they need. ., ., ~ ., need. what does that look like to ou? we need. what does that look like to you? we need — need. what does that look like to you? we need to _ need. what does that look like to you? we need to see _ need. what does that look like to you? we need to see all- need. what does that look like to you? we need to see all the i you? we need to see all the evidence- — you? we need to see all the evidence. we _ you? we need to see all the evidence. we don't - you? we need to see all the evidence. we don't want i you? we need to see all the evidence. we don't want to | you? we need to see all the i evidence. we don't want to see the one person scapegoated. there are so many people involved, as we saw from alan, from such an early stage and we need to find out who knew what and what they were told and get the right people from post office,

fujitsu or in government and if they have perverted the course ofjustice or other criminal offence, they have to feel the consequences of that. thank you very much for talking to us. we appreciate it. a former chief inspector of prisons in england and wales has called the idea of building more jails to deal with the population crisis utterly bonkers . nick hardwick who was in the role from 2010 to 2016, and still regularly visits prisons, told newsnight even if the government were to spend billions on newjails, they wouldn t be able to spend it fast enough to keep pace with the increasing population. we ve also spoken to staff working inside some jails who paint a picture of chaos, disaster, and crisis levels of overcrowding . tonight we ask what 5 the answer? 0ur uk editor sima kotecha has this report. behind the barbed wire and the huge walls are tens of thousands of inmates. jails are under immense pressure,

with prison officers telling us overcrowding is having a detrimental impact on the entire penal system. the chief inspector of prisons has said the prison population crisis will lead to more deprivation, squalor and violence. prison isn't supposed to be glamorous. it's a punishment. but most inmates are eventually released, which is why the impact of prison life on them is so important. what are they like once they're back out in the community? joseph is 29. he was inside for two years and was released just months ago. honestly, sima, i can't explain it. you know, it's the sort of thing that you can only understand if you've been through it. it's affecting rehabilitation because cells that are meant to be for like one person, they've got two people in them, like there's high risk prisoners. so now if you've got someone in the cell with a high risk prisoner, you're putting them at harm as well. i'd say that there's a lot more violence. a lot more misunderstanding, which leads to altercations

happening, arguments, things like that. a lot of people that need a certain amount of support, they can't get that support, though, as well. his experience is echoed in the latest annual report by the chief inspector of prisons, which warns that many jails are overcrowded and in urgent need of repair. we've been speaking to some people who work inside our prisons and they keep raising the issue of overcrowding. they say that some of the staff is so inexperienced that they simply don't know how to cope. 0ne prison officer told me it's only a matter of time before a major riot breaks out, because so many inmates are being crammed into tiny cells. the current prison population is almost 87,000. the total capacity stands at 88,890, meaning there's room forjust under 2,000 more inmates across the prison estate. according to the government's own projections, the prison

population is expected to increase to between around 95,000 to almost 115,000 by march 2028. the population growth is primarily down to two things — tougher sentences and court backlogs — leading to a 50 year high of the number of people on remand. we are kind of at breaking point. we're at a time at the moment of really restricted government finances, unprotected spending. departments are seeing their budgets cut more, and instead of sending more people to prison for longer, which is incredibly resource intensive, we should be addressing need in the community. if you're not addressing that need in the community, you're sending someone to prison at a point of crisis, at which point that condition could be exacerbated, and then when they're released into community, they're going to be in a worse situation. the government and the labour 0pposition want to build more prisons. ministers are spending £4 billion on six newjails

to create 20,000 more places. but earlier this year, the justice secretary said planning permission was delaying the project. both parties, what they're proposing is utterly bonkers and simply defies the basic arithmetic. 0n the government's own published data, even if they spend the £4 billion, they can't spend it fast enough to keep pace with a rising population. and even if they spend it, even if they build those places by some miracle, it won't be enough to meet even the midpoint of the government's projection of how the prison population is going to rise. one idea, he suggests, is putting criminals sentenced to prison on a waiting list for a cell to become available. but a source working with the moj says that would just lead to another backlog.

the government told us: the opposition said: ministers now could release low level offenders early by around 60 days to free up space. but critics say this creates a whole new crisis for the probation service because it has less time to sort out a resettlement plan. joseph says what happens inside is crucial. if you don't get the right help in there, when you come out, you're a lot more vulnerable to re—offend. definitely.

let's talk now to the chief inspector of prisons charlie taylor. david shipley, former prison and prison reform campaigner. and jo early, ceo support after murder and manslaughter joins me now in the studio. you represent families who have lost a loved one who has been murder bed, when you hear about overcrowd prisons what do you think. we have over 4.000 — prisons what do you think. we have over 4,000 bereaved _ prisons what do you think. we have over 4,000 bereaved people i prisons what do you think. we have over 4,000 bereaved people on i prisons what do you think. we have | over 4,000 bereaved people on our books and we represent those views and a lot of them their main concern around offenders is the level of risk. so whether they're a view to being released earlier, because the

prison population is overcrowded, theissue prison population is overcrowded, the issue would be managing the level of risk and if that perpetrator is going to be released early, what does that mean for bereaved families and it brings an enormous retraumatisation and anxiety for those families. we are told that the _ anxiety for those families. we are told that the early _ anxiety for those families. we are told that the early releases i anxiety for those families. we are told that the early releases are i told that the early releases are happening with what are being described with low risk prisoners, they're being released perhaps 18 days before the end of their senten anyway. are they low risk. thea;r days before the end of their senten anyway. are they low risk. they are low risk by — anyway. are they low risk. they are low risk by the _ anyway. are they low risk. they are low risk by the definition, _ anyway. are they low risk. they are low risk by the definition, but i anyway. are they low risk. they are j low risk by the definition, but some have committed serious offences and they may _ have committed serious offences and they may be in for something that is low risk, _ they may be in for something that is low risk, but — they may be in for something that is low risk, but they have a list of previous — low risk, but they have a list of previous convictions. low risk can be loose. — previous convictions. low risk can be loose. it— previous convictions. low risk can be loose, it can be people who have committed — be loose, it can be people who have committed serious crimes of violence. _ committed serious crimes of violence, notjust people dealing drugs _ violence, notjust people dealing drugs or—

violence, notjust people dealing drugs or shoplifters. if the preparation has been done right and victims _ preparation has been done right and victims are, — preparation has been done right and victims are, know about this in the community, — victims are, know about this in the community, if probation services are in place _ community, if probation services are in place and — community, if probation services are in place and rehabilitation has been done in _ in place and rehabilitation has been done in prison there is a good chance — done in prison there is a good chance that person could go out and be safe _ chance that person could go out and be safe it_ chance that person could go out and be safe. if the building blocks are not in _ be safe. if the building blocks are not in safe, — be safe. if the building blocks are not in safe, it wor yirs us. -- worries _ not in safe, it wor yirs us. -- worries us- _ not in safe, it wor yirs us. -- worries us. are _ not in safe, it wor yirs us. » worries us. are those building blocks in place?— worries us. are those building blocks in place? no, when i was in wandsworth _ blocks in place? no, when i was in wandsworth people _ blocks in place? no, when i was in wandsworth people talk _ blocks in place? no, when i was in wandsworth people talk of i blocks in place? no, when i was in wandsworth people talk of how i blocks in place? no, when i was in l wandsworth people talk of how dirty and drug _ wandsworth people talk of how dirty and drug riddled _ wandsworth people talk of how dirty and drug riddled it— wandsworth people talk of how dirty and drug riddled it was, _ wandsworth people talk of how dirty and drug riddled it was, but- wandsworth people talk of how dirty and drug riddled it was, but it - wandsworth people talk of how dirty and drug riddled it was, but it is i wandsworth people talk of how dirty and drug riddled it was, but it is a i and drug riddled it was, but it is a badly— and drug riddled it was, but it is a badly are — and drug riddled it was, but it is a badly are up — and drug riddled it was, but it is a badly are up organisation. - and drug riddled it was, but it is a badly are up organisation. edge i badly are up organisation. edge ucation — badly are up organisation. edge ucation and _ badly are up organisation. edge ucation and training _ badly are up organisation. edge ucation and training is - badly are up organisation. edge ucation and training is not- ucation and training is not happening _ ucation and training is not happening. people - ucation and training is not happening. people are i ucation and training is not| happening. people are fed ucation and training is not- happening. people are fed and ucation and training is not— happening. people are fed and locked in cells _ happening. people are fed and locked in cells that — happening. people are fed and locked in cells. that creates _ happening. people are fed and locked in cells. that creates an _ in cells. that creates an environment _ in cells. that creates an environment in - in cells. that creates an environment in which i in cells. that creates an . environment in which only in cells. that creates an _ environment in which only bad things happen _ environment in which only bad things happen hath?— environment in which only bad things ha--en.~ ,, ., environment in which only bad things hat-en. _ ., ., , environment in which only bad things hat-en. _., ., , happen. why should voters cares hrison's happen. why should voters cares prison's awful — happen. why should voters cares prison's awful and _ happen. why should voters cares prison's awful and not _ happen. why should voters cares prison's awful and not much i prison's awful and not much education or rehabilitation happens

s? i think that is a great question. almost— s? i think that is a great question. almost everyone _ s? i think that is a great question. almost everyone who goes - s? i think that is a great question. almost everyone who goes to i s? i think that is a great question. . almost everyone who goes to prison gets released — almost everyone who goes to prison gets released one day. _ almost everyone who goes to prison gets released one day. we are i almost everyone who goes to prison gets released one day. we are not. gets released one day. we are not talking _ gets released one day. we are not talking about _ gets released one day. we are not talking about the _ gets released one day. we are not talking about the people _ gets released one day. we are not talking about the people who i gets released one day. we are not. talking about the people who commit brutal _ talking about the people who commit brutal murders, _ talking about the people who commit brutal murders, but _ talking about the people who commit brutal murders, but most _ talking about the people who commit brutal murders, but most people i talking about the people who commit brutal murders, but most people are| brutal murders, but most people are out within— brutal murders, but most people are out within a — brutal murders, but most people are out within a couple _ brutal murders, but most people are out within a couple of— brutal murders, but most people are out within a couple of years - brutal murders, but most people are out within a couple of years and i out within a couple of years and re-offending _ out within a couple of years and re—offending costs _ out within a couple of years and re—offending costs and - out within a couple of years and re—offending costs and £18 i out within a couple of years and i re—offending costs and £18 billion a year~ _ re—offending costs and £18 billion a year~ h_ re-offending costs and £18 billion a ear. �* , ., re-offending costs and £18 billion a ear. �*, ., 'i~ re-offending costs and £18 billion a ear. �*y . (w, ., re-offending costs and £18 billion a year-_ yes. - re-offending costs and £18 billion a year-_ yes. that i year. a year? 18 billion? yes, that is about a — year. a year? 18 billion? yes, that is about a third _ year. a year? 18 billion? yes, that is about a third of _ year. a year? 18 billion? yes, that is about a third of the total- is about a third of the total estimated _ is about a third of the total estimated cost— is about a third of the total estimated cost of- is about a third of the total estimated cost of crime. i is about a third of the totali estimated cost of crime. so is about a third of the total- estimated cost of crime. so this isn't _ estimated cost of crime. so this isn't about— estimated cost of crime. so this isn't about saying _ estimated cost of crime. so this isn't about saying i _ estimated cost of crime. so this isn't about saying i want - estimated cost of crime. so this isn't about saying i want to i estimated cost of crime. so thisl isn't about saying i want to make prison— isn't about saying i want to make prison lovely— isn't about saying i want to make prison lovely for— isn't about saying i want to make prison lovely for criminals. - isn't about saying i want to make prison lovely for criminals. this l isn't about saying i want to make | prison lovely for criminals. this is saying _ prison lovely for criminals. this is saying we — prison lovely for criminals. this is saying we should _ prison lovely for criminals. this is saying we should all _ prison lovely for criminals. this is saying we should all want - prison lovely for criminals. this is saying we should all want a i prison lovely for criminals. this is| saying we should all want a prison system _ saying we should all want a prison system which _ saying we should all want a prison system which produces _ saying we should all want a prison system which produces people i saying we should all want a prisonl system which produces people who when _ system which produces people who when they're — system which produces people who when they're release _ system which produces people who when they're release rd _ system which produces people who when they're release rd less- system which produces people who when they're release rd less likelyl when they're release rd less likely to reoffend — when they're release rd less likely to reoffend and _ when they're release rd less likely to reoffend and to _ when they're release rd less likely to reoffend and to harm. - when they're release rd less likely to reoffend and to harm.— to reoffend and to harm. when an offender is — to reoffend and to harm. when an offender is released, _ to reoffend and to harm. when an offender is released, it _ to reoffend and to harm. when an offender is released, it is - to reoffend and to harm. when an offender is released, it is around. offender is released, it is around the level of risk and often when you say the building blocks are in place, that is well and good if they're in place. 0ften those building blocks are wrong. 0r

they're in place. 0ften those building blocks are wrong. or we have seen many times where a person has been released for a serious offence and gone on to commit a murder or has within weeks of release had you know high risk behaviour and been recalled to prison. so, we have seen the level of risk categorised wrongly and they have gone from a serious crime to a murder. that is why the public should be interested in this and why they should care is about the level of risk to the public. i they should care is about the level of risk to the public.— of risk to the public. i think that is an area _ of risk to the public. i think that is an area that _ of risk to the public. i think that is an area that worries us. i of risk to the public. i think that is an area that worries us. whatj of risk to the public. i think that i is an area that worries us. what we are concerned about is that prisoners— are concerned about is that prisoners are spending their sentences locked behind their door in crowded — sentences locked behind their door in crowded conditions and in cells at wandsworth that were designed for one person. they're not getting any opportunity for rehabilitation or opportunities to get into the habits of work— opportunities to get into the habits of work or— opportunities to get into the habits of work or training or develop skills— of work or training or develop skills that will make them less

likely— skills that will make them less likely to — skills that will make them less likely to reoffend and to commit more _ likely to reoffend and to commit more offences and also because of the level— more offences and also because of the level of drugs in prisons what we are _ the level of drugs in prisons what we are finding is prisoners are developing drug problems when they io developing drug problems when they go inside _ developing drug problems when they go inside. a prison in yorkshire, 21% of— go inside. a prison in yorkshire, 21% of prisoners said they had developed a problem with drugs when they went _ developed a problem with drugs when they went into swral. so when they come _ they went into swral. so when they come out, — they went into swral. so when they come out, they're hooked into the drugs _ come out, they're hooked into the drugs trade and that brings them into further offences and further victims — into further offences and further victims. ., , ., ., victims. you were inside for fraud? yes. did victims. you were inside for fraud? yes- did you- -- _ victims. you were inside for fraud? yes. did you... if— victims. you were inside for fraud? yes. did you... if you _ victims. you were inside for fraud? yes. did you... if you had - victims. you were inside for fraud? yes. did you... if you had wanted i victims. you were inside for fraud? | yes. did you... if you had wanted to take drugs. — yes. did you... if you had wanted to take drugs. did _ yes. did you... if you had wanted to take drugs, did you _ yes. did you... if you had wanted to take drugs, did you take _ yes. did you... if you had wanted to take drugs, did you take drugs? i i take drugs, did you take drugs? i didn't take drugs in prison or outside _ didn't take drugs in prison or outside but— didn't take drugs in prison or outside. but the _ didn't take drugs in prison or outside. but the drug - didn't take drugs in prison or outside. but the drug trade i didn't take drugs in prison or. outside. but the drug trade was every— outside. but the drug trade was every where _ outside. but the drug trade was every where in _ outside. but the drug trade was every where in wandsworth i outside. but the drug trade was every where in wandsworth and j outside. but the drug trade was l every where in wandsworth and it wasn't _ every where in wandsworth and it wasn'tiust— every where in wandsworth and it wasn't just spice. _ every where in wandsworth and it wasn't just spice, you _ every where in wandsworth and it wasn'tjust spice, you could i every where in wandsworth and it wasn'tjust spice, you could get. wasn'tjust spice, you could get cocaine — wasn'tjust spice, you could get cocaine. ., ., ., , , ~ cocaine. how were there are class a druts in a cocaine. how were there are class a drugs in a bronn? _ cocaine. how were there are class a drugs in a bronn? the _ cocaine. how were there are class a drugs in a bronn? the -- _ cocaine. how were there are class a drugs in a bronn? the -- prison. i cocaine. how were there are class a| drugs in a bronn? the -- prison. the government— drugs in a bronn? the -- prison. the government talks _

drugs in a bronn? the -- prison. the government talks of _ drugs in a bronn? the -- prison. the government talks of drones, - drugs in a bronn? the -- prison. the government talks of drones, but i drugs in a bronn? the -- prison. the. government talks of drones, but when i was government talks of drones, but when i was in _ government talks of drones, but when i was in wandsworth _ government talks of drones, but when i was in wandsworth during _ government talks of drones, but when i was in wandsworth during lockdowni i was in wandsworth during lockdown and during _ i was in wandsworth during lockdown and during that — i was in wandsworth during lockdown and during that period _ i was in wandsworth during lockdown and during that period only— i was in wandsworth during lockdown and during that period only prison- and during that period only prison officers _ and during that period only prison officers were _ and during that period only prison officers were coming _ and during that period only prison officers were coming in _ and during that period only prison officers were coming in and - and during that period only prison officers were coming in and out i and during that period only prisonj officers were coming in and out of prison— officers were coming in and out of prison and — officers were coming in and out of prison and yet _ officers were coming in and out of prison and yet the _ officers were coming in and out of prison and yet the drug _ officers were coming in and out of prison and yet the drug supply- prison and yet the drug supply continued _ prison and yet the drug supply continued i_ prison and yet the drug supply continued. ithink— prison and yet the drug supply continued. i think the - prison and yet the drug supply continued. i think the reality l prison and yet the drug supply| continued. i think the reality is there _ continued. i think the reality is there so— continued. i think the reality is there so much— continued. i think the reality is there so much money- continued. i think the reality is there so much money in it i continued. i think the reality is i there so much money in it enough prison— there so much money in it enough prison officers _ there so much money in it enough prison officers are _ there so much money in it enough prison officers are corrupted i there so much money in it enough prison officers are corrupted and l prison officers are corrupted and bringing — prison officers are corrupted and bringing in— prison officers are corrupted and bringing in drugs. _ prison officers are corrupted and bringing in drugs.— prison officers are corrupted and bringing in drugs. serious organised crime knows — bringing in drugs. serious organised crime knows that _ bringing in drugs. serious organised crime knows that people _ bringing in drugs. serious organised crime knows that people in - bringing in drugs. serious organised crime knows that people in prison . crime knows that people in prison are vulnerable to taking drugs and they know— are vulnerable to taking drugs and they know if they get drugs into prison— they know if they get drugs into prison the mark—up is enormous on drugs _ prison the mark—up is enormous on drugs and _ prison the mark—up is enormous on drugs and mobile phones or any contraband so the prison service faces— contraband so the prison service faces a _ contraband so the prison service faces a constant battle about that. but not _ faces a constant battle about that. but not just faces a constant battle about that. but notjust reducing the supply of drugs _ but notjust reducing the supply of drugs coming in but also the demand for drugs _ drugs coming in but also the demand for drugs. prisoners said round with nothing _ for drugs. prisoners said round with nothing to— for drugs. prisoners said round with nothing to do all day and inevitably they would take drugs if they are offered, —

they would take drugs if they are offered, some of them. if they feel that they're doing things that would make _ that they're doing things that would make them successful when they come out they— make them successful when they come out they would be in a better position— out they would be in a better position to turn around and say no when _ position to turn around and say no when the — position to turn around and say no when the drug peddlers along. it is im hortant when the drug peddlers along. it is important i — when the drug peddlers along. it 3 important i think to say the criminaljustice important i think to say the criminal justice system, important i think to say the criminaljustice system, we see people going through this and it is often geared up for the rights of offenders and we have victims and prisoners bill going through the house of lords again from next week onwards and amendments have been rejected in favour of prisoners are not the victims for example. we had to work on an amendment that said if a convicted murderer was applying for parole every two years then that is emotionally harmful to the family to go through this again. and that amendment is about extending that period of time and has been rejected in the house of lords through fear of breaching the human rights of an offender. the cost of a murderer

from start to finish in this country is 3.2 million and not .3% of that money is spent on the families of victims. the whole family, notjust one person and we need to look at putting victims at the heart of the criminaljustice putting victims at the heart of the criminal justice system putting victims at the heart of the criminaljustice system and redressing that balance that is still tipped in favour of the offenders. the system is broken. $5 offenders. the system is broken. as long as i have been injournalism every government that has been in power has said we will put victims of the heart of the criminaljustice system. and here we are in 2024 and you are a victim and you represent thousands of family members who have lost loved ones to murder and manslaughter and it has still not been done. manslaughter and it has still not been done-— been done. and we asked for a victims bill _ been done. and we asked for a victims bill and _ been done. and we asked for a victims bill and it is _ been done. and we asked for a victims bill and it is now i been done. and we asked for a victims bill and it is now a i been done. and we asked for a i victims bill and it is now a victims and prisoners bill. the very nature of that section about prisoners and offenders and the fact that victims wanted a bill for themselves, the very word prisoner is traumatising,

and that is the reality of it. obviously prison has two aims, you 0bviously prison has two aims, you are a chief inspector, you tell me. to protect the public from criminals and to try to stop them reoffending. to protect the public by keeping people — to protect the public by keeping people locked up and making people less likely to commit crime when they come — less likely to commit crime when they come out. and to punish them. yes. they come out. and to punish them. yes we _ they come out. and to punish them. yes. we want to see justice, victims want to see justice and the idea of releasing an offender early is a smack in the face for the victims. do you accept that the conversations around overcrowding or two people to around overcrowding or two people to a cell where it should be one person or being locked up 22 hours a day because there are not enough prison staff, that there is a link to that person then potentially coming out and reoffending because they have

not had the education and rehabilitation? i’m not had the education and rehabilitation?— not had the education and rehabilitation? �* ., , , rehabilitation? i'm not sure it is about accepting _ rehabilitation? i'm not sure it is about accepting that, _ rehabilitation? i'm not sure it is about accepting that, it - rehabilitation? i'm not sure it is about accepting that, it is i rehabilitation? i'm not sure it isj about accepting that, it is about representing the views where we hear families every day saying we do not get free education or things paid for. and may of the family has been murdered and they've had to move house on give up a job. we do not have the updated figures. but that is what families are saying to us every day. they do not get an education and get a chance. it is a life sentence for them as well. the government _ life sentence for them as well. the government says it is building more prison places but it will miss its target bite next year but still it says 10,000 extra places by next year. the labour party say we will cut crime and get spades into the ground to build prison capacity. is ground to build prison capacity. is that the solution? the problem is

that the solution? the problem is that the _ that the solution? the problem is that the prison population is growing _ that the prison population is growing as well so if they build all the places they promised that would only keep _ the places they promised that would only keep pace with the growing population. and there is a growing length _ population. and there is a growing length of— population. and there is a growing length of remand and sentences because — length of remand and sentences because people are waiting longer to -et because people are waiting longer to get to— because people are waiting longer to get to court. and also because recall— get to court. and also because recall are _ get to court. and also because recall are going up with more people being _ recall are going up with more people being recalled to prison. if you look— being recalled to prison. if you look at — being recalled to prison. if you look at peterborough prison they released — look at peterborough prison they released 1200 people a year but they recalled _ released 1200 people a year but they recalled 700. gf released 1200 people a year but they recalled 700-— released 1200 people a year but they recalled 700._ of i released 1200 people a year but they | recalled 700._ of people recalled 700. of the 1200? of people released, recalled 700. of the 1200? of people released. yes- _ recalled 700. of the 1200? of people released, yes. so _ recalled 700. of the 1200? of people released, yes. so the _ recalled 700. of the 1200? of people released, yes. so the reality - recalled 700. of the 1200? of people released, yes. so the reality of i released, yes. so the reality of that — released, yes. so the reality of that... , .,, ' i: i: ., that... so they released 1200 and recalled 700? _ that... so they released 1200 and recalled 700? the _ that... so they released 1200 and recalled 700? the prison - that... so they released 1200 and recalled 700? the prison system| that... so they released 1200 and. recalled 700? the prison system is not working- _ recalled 700? the prison system is not working. the _ recalled 700? the prison system is not working. the whole _ recalled 700? the prison system is not working. the whole justice i not working. the whole justice system, — not working. the whole justice system, probation not functioning, a hu-e system, probation not functioning, a huge backlog in the courts and even the simplest thing, we have been holding _ the simplest thing, we have been holding a — the simplest thing, we have been holding a number of teenage girls in

wetherby— holding a number of teenage girls in wetherby since 2021 in a boys prison and the _ wetherby since 2021 in a boys prison and the government said that would be for— and the government said that would be for maximum two years but they're still there _ be for maximum two years but they're still there and the whole system is failing _ still there and the whole system is failing |t— still there and the whole system is failint. ..,, still there and the whole system is failint. ., ., failing. it cost the taxpayer on avera . e failing. it cost the taxpayer on average £50,000 _ failing. it cost the taxpayer on average £50,000 a _ failing. it cost the taxpayer on average £50,000 a year- failing. it cost the taxpayer on average £50,000 a year to i failing. it cost the taxpayer on i average £50,000 a year to keep people _ average £50,000 a year to keep people locked — average £50,000 a year to keep people locked in _ average £50,000 a year to keep people locked in prison- average £50,000 a year to keep people locked in prison and i average £50,000 a year to keepl people locked in prison and there average £50,000 a year to keep. people locked in prison and there is a question— people locked in prison and there is a question about _ people locked in prison and there is a question about whether— people locked in prison and there is a question about whether we i people locked in prison and there is a question about whether we get i a question about whether we get value _ a question about whether we get value for— a question about whether we get value for money— a question about whether we get value for money when _ a question about whether we get value for money when people . a question about whether we get i value for money when people come a question about whether we get - value for money when people come out and they— value for money when people come out and they are _ value for money when people come out and they are reoffending _ value for money when people come out and they are reoffending and _ value for money when people come out and they are reoffending and being - and they are reoffending and being recalled _ and they are reoffending and being recalled as — and they are reoffending and being recalled as they— and they are reoffending and being recalled as they were _ and they are reoffending and being recalled as they were at _ recalled as they were at peterborough _ recalled as they were at peterborough at - recalled as they were at peterborough at an - recalled as they were at - peterborough at an astonishing recalled as they were at _ peterborough at an astonishing high rate and _ peterborough at an astonishing high rate and going — peterborough at an astonishing high rate and going back— peterborough at an astonishing high rate and going back into _ peterborough at an astonishing high rate and going back into the - rate and going back into the community— rate and going back into the community to _ rate and going back into the community to commit - rate and going back into the community to commit more i rate and going back into the - community to commit more offences. so the _ community to commit more offences. so the moment— community to commit more offences. so the moment it _ community to commit more offences. so the moment it is _ community to commit more offences. so the moment it is not _ community to commit more offences. so the moment it is not value - community to commit more offences. so the moment it is not value for- so the moment it is not value for money— so the moment it is not value for money for— so the moment it is not value for money for the _ so the moment it is not value for money for the huge _ so the moment it is not value for money for the huge amount - so the moment it is not value for money for the huge amount of. so the moment it is not value for- money for the huge amount of money that we _ money for the huge amount of money that we are _ money for the huge amount of money that we are investing _ money for the huge amount of money that we are investing in _ money for the huge amount of money that we are investing in prisons - that we are investing in prisons with— that we are investing in prisons with prisoners _ that we are investing in prisons with prisoners recommitting i that we are investing in prisons - with prisoners recommitting offences and going _ with prisoners recommitting offences and going track— with prisoners recommitting offences and going back in _ with prisoners recommitting offences and going back in.— and going back in. thank you for talkin: to and going back in. thank you for talking to us- — how should medical professionals treat children and young people with gender dysphoria? tomorrow we're expecting the final report from dr hilary cass that will make its recommendations. her interim review out in 2022 led to the closure of the gender

identity development service at the tavistock nhs trust in london. dr hilary cass's review then called for a "fundamentally different" approach to treating children after a significant rise in referrals to the clinic and the raising of serious concerns about the care they offered. let's talk to hannah barnes associate editor at the new statesman magazine. it was her work here on newsnight into care for young people in this area that lifted the lid on problems in the service. hannah, what are we expecting to see tomorrow? that report is under embargo but the nature of these things is that it is on several front pages already. so several of the newspapers, the daily mail, the guardian newspaper calling it a landmark report. very much concentrating on evidence based. 0h, here we go. evidence severely lacking. nhs review rejects the use

of puberty blockers which to be fair we already knew. and the guardian newspaper quite rightly sang thousands of children let down by the nhs. and tomorrow what we expect is firstly on that evidence base, dr cass will say how do we strengthen that because it is very weak behind these medical treatments that are being used now for a decade and half with children. and we need to put proper data because it has been woefully inadequate up to this point. we know next to nothing about 9000, 10,000 point. we know next to nothing about 9000,10,000 children that have gone through the gender identity development service at the tavistock. but those who started medication and those who have not. and also we spent detail on what good care looks like and that will be the medical rising it. and treating children as a whole which sounds a bit silly but one of the problem is that we've had in the

pastis problem is that we've had in the past is once a young person has gender related to stress and no one is questioning that come at the other difficulties they often have an aside is depression and anxiety and eating disorders. and when people had these things they were ignored so these new services, food care will look at those children in the hole. �* ., care will look at those children in the hole. . . , ., ,, care will look at those children in the hole. . . ,, . the hole. and what you think about the hole. and what you think about the fact that _ the hole. and what you think about the fact that it — the hole. and what you think about the fact that it is _ the hole. and what you think about the fact that it is taken _ the hole. and what you think about the fact that it is taken this - the fact that it is taken this length of time to get to this stage? pretty atrocious, i think it is quite shameful. we've known many years that there is a pretty big problem here. going back to 2015 when certainly gender identity development service itself had some early data about the first children, the younger children to go on puberty blockers which indicated that some of them were not benefiting from that at all and a year later that was confirmed. and the head of gender identity development service presented his findings to professionals working in

the area and her own staff but not to the public. in 201810 members of staff from one small service, ten of them which is extraordinary, they raise those concerns to an adult member of staff. and that went to nhs england and that is six years ago. 2019 when we started reporting on this programme, we made a series of films and we obtained some transcripts unofficial reviews into gender identity development service and in those several commissions raise some very serious concerns about the care of the service was offering. here isjust a about the care of the service was offering. here is just a taster.

that was an actor