issue. currently, as views on this issue. currently, as you join me, i am speaking to susie who is telling us about her trans son. and phil is with us as well. sorry not to get to you sooner but everyone is welcome. get in touch. it's about your voice and your views. tell me about, if you would, susie, the struggles of your son and what he has been through over the past five years. what he has been through over the past five yeas-— what he has been through over the past five yew-— past five years. starting at the beginning. _ past five years. starting at the beginning. the _ past five years. starting at the beginning, the back _ past five years. starting at the beginning, the back story - past five years. starting at the i beginning, the back story issues. past five years. starting at the - beginning, the back story issues. in summary, it's about, when he realises that... most of our kids from when they are little you can see something, you mightjust not want to see it, from shopping at an

early age and the boy section, etc, and you just go, that's fine. this progress keeps going, and the struggle especially when they go to secondary school and you have the toilet issue and whatever. but beyond that, he can deal with that, he can face it. it's the daily struggles of someone, and i don't know how it feels because i don't know how it feels because i don't know it, but to see somebody look at their reflection in the mirror or have to look at yourself and hate the way you look because they are an identity victim there, from that, to the whole system, they won't provide the whole system, they won't provide the support, it depends on the situation and depends on the medical history of the child. everything that we have done has to be navigated around from private

services to nhs to social services altogether. everything that comes to talk openly and provide the support he requires. this is not encouraging, that is not embracing it or anything like that. this is basic care stop because we have to live on a daily basis. the basic care stop because we have to live on a daily basis.— live on a daily basis. the effect on his mental— live on a daily basis. the effect on his mental health _ live on a daily basis. the effect on his mental health of _ live on a daily basis. the effect on his mental health of this - live on a daily basis. the effect on his mental health of this stopping | his mental health of this stopping and starting and stopping and starting. to and starting and stopping and startina. ., , ., , starting. to be honest with you, he started on hormone _ starting. to be honest with you, he started on hormone blockers - starting. to be honest with you, he started on hormone blockers at - starting. to be honest with you, hej started on hormone blockers at the age of 15. we saw a change already there. last year he started with testosterone.— there. last year he started with testosterone. ~ . . ., , ., testosterone. what change did you notice at 15? _ testosterone. what change did you notice at 15? he _ testosterone. what change did you notice at 15? he started _ testosterone. what change did you notice at 15? he started losing - notice at 15? he started losing weiaht, notice at 15? he started losing weight, embracing _ notice at15? he started losing weight, embracing his- notice at 15? he started losing - weight, embracing his personality and his looks, buying clothing, to being more confident in going out

and to keep pursuing his career and what he wants to do. i see somebody, even his mindset has changed from extreme frustration and rage to somebody who is out there and can actually talk and deal with situations in a different way because he is confident. so when doctor hilary _ because he is confident. so when doctor hilary cass _ because he is confident. so when doctor hilary cass cautions - because he is confident. so when | doctor hilary cass cautions caution and says we should absolutely wait and says we should absolutely wait and wait and delay any medical intervention and the medicalising of the process because somebody in the future, it might be right for them and it might not be right for them but we have to hold off on the drugs. but we have to hold off on the dru:s. , ., but we have to hold off on the dru:s. ,., ., , but we have to hold off on the dru:s. drugs. the report as well said it was on a case-by-case - drugs. the report as well said it was on a case-by-case basis. . drugs. the report as well said it was on a case-by-case basis. i | was on a case—by—case basis. i wouldn't put an age. i wouldn't put an age at all. this is something medical. no parent wants to harm their kids. i struggle a lot with

hormone blockers and then the testosterone, but you put one thing and then the other. instead of having a crisis, on the edge of suicide kid, to somebody who will actually benefit from getting the best of them are out there, you have to weigh this, it's too big, and it can't ever be black and white. to be fair to can't ever be black and white. to be fairto doctor— can't ever be black and white. to be fair to doctor hilary _ can't ever be black and white. to be fair to doctor hilary cass, _ can't ever be black and white. to be fair to doctor hilary cass, she - can't ever be black and white. to be fair to doctor hilary cass, she says. fair to doctor hilary cass, she says this, she says ultimately we are talking about human beings, individuals who are all different, and it is so different to having a broadbrush approach. it is so valuable. i broadbrush approach. it is so valuable. ~ broadbrush approach. it is so valuable-— broadbrush approach. it is so valuable. ~' , , ., , valuable. i think it depends as well, honestly. _ valuable. i think it depends as well, honestly. because - valuable. i think it depends as well, honestly. because we i valuable. i think it depends as - well, honestly. because we never talk as parents, but we are notjust pushing this, we are a very shy group. people talking out there are not necessarily the parents of trans people. i will embrace,

not necessarily the parents of trans people. iwill embrace, i not necessarily the parents of trans people. i will embrace, i am a scientific person so i will follow what it is, but there is also a human context and a mental health aspect to this and i can't say no. there is a mental health bit, obviously, to this. this is pointed out and it is amplified in arguments that we hear right along the whole spectrum of the issue. phil is with us. such a valuable contribution by susie. likewise, jane, on the radio before the viewers joined us. who susie. likewise, jane, on the radio before the viewersjoined us. who is estranged from her child, cannot understand, life is really difficult for her. at last, phil, thank you. forgive me, but these are the sorts of conversations that cannot be hurried. it's all yours. absolutely. and i think _

hurried. it's all yours. absolutely. and i think actually _ hurried. it's all yours. absolutely. and i think actually from - hurried. it's all yours. absolutely. and i think actually from the - and i think actually from the varying — and i think actually from the varying statuses and stories of both susie _ varying statuses and stories of both susie and _ varying statuses and stories of both susie and jane, you can see how complex— susie and jane, you can see how complex this situation is. the system — complex this situation is. the system wasn't ready for this complex social_ system wasn't ready for this complex social change. i think that's what hilary— social change. i think that's what hilary cass's report says and we should — hilary cass's report says and we should now openly and freely discuss the situation. i was listening to a call on _ the situation. i was listening to a call on a — the situation. i was listening to a call on a different radio show last week— call on a different radio show last week where they had a psychologist on talking _ week where they had a psychologist on talking about girls and autism and how— on talking about girls and autism and how they are so undiagnosed. one interesting _ and how they are so undiagnosed. one interesting thing that the cass report— interesting thing that the cass report brings out, the massive rise in teenage — report brings out, the massive rise in teenage girls that has underlying causes _ in teenage girls that has underlying causes and this is our personal experience. our daughter, very happy as a child _ experience. our daughter, very happy as a child growing up, very quirky. we knew— as a child growing up, very quirky. we knew there was something not typical, _ we knew there was something not typical, as — we knew there was something not typical, as in neurodivergent, when she was— typical, as in neurodivergent, when she was younger, showing typical autism _ she was younger, showing typical autism traits. a lot of doctors at

the time — autism traits. a lot of doctors at the time and paediatricians dismissed it saying people would .row dismissed it saying people would grow out— dismissed it saying people would grow out of it, it is quite common. she never— grow out of it, it is quite common. she never really did but through all of this— she never really did but through all of this she — she never really did but through all of this she was a really happy, girtv. — of this she was a really happy, girtv. she _ of this she was a really happy, girly, she loved to dress up, she had to— girly, she loved to dress up, she had to he — girly, she loved to dress up, she had to be the princess, not interested in boy things at all. we were _ interested in boy things at all. we were living — interested in boy things at all. we were living in the states at the time _ were living in the states at the time and — were living in the states at the time and then she came back to the uk and _ time and then she came back to the uk and went to a uk primary school, and she _ uk and went to a uk primary school, and she loved having a uniform, wearing — and she loved having a uniform, wearing a — and she loved having a uniform, wearing a gingham dress at school. she thrived — wearing a gingham dress at school. she thrived injunior wearing a gingham dress at school. she thrived in junior school wearing a gingham dress at school. she thrived injunior school but towards — she thrived injunior school but towards the end, the teachers said her reading — towards the end, the teachers said her reading ability was like a 14—year—old, she was great at everything apart from maths. towards the end _ everything apart from maths. towards the end of— everything apart from maths. towards the end ofjunior school she started puberty— the end ofjunior school she started puberty quite early, just at ten years— puberty quite early, just at ten years old. _ puberty quite early, just at ten years old, she was one of the youngest— years old, she was one of the youngest in her class, her birthday was at _ youngest in her class, her birthday was at the — youngest in her class, her birthday was at the end of the year. she started — was at the end of the year. she started having issues, menstruating, she didn't _ started having issues, menstruating, she didn't know how to handle it. she was— she didn't know how to handle it. she was still ok with herself,

nothing — she was still ok with herself, nothing different, but she had some challenges. she never mentioned about— challenges. she never mentioned about wanting to be a boy or anything _ about wanting to be a boy or anything else. rolling the clock forward — anything else. rolling the clock forward and she went to secondary school _ forward and she went to secondary school it — forward and she went to secondary school. it was a huge jump. from being _ school. it was a huge jump. from being a _ school. it was a huge jump. from being a kid — school. it was a huge jump. from being a kid in the states, you don't normally— being a kid in the states, you don't normally go— being a kid in the states, you don't normally go to be with older kids until you — normally go to be with older kids until you hit middle school when you are 14 _ until you hit middle school when you are14 or— until you hit middle school when you are 14 or 15 — until you hit middle school when you are 14 or 15. she was still effectively ten when she started school, — effectively ten when she started school, just had her 11th birthday. mixing _ school, just had her 11th birthday. mixing with kids who were 16 or 17, and it— mixing with kids who were 16 or 17, and it was— mixing with kids who were 16 or 17, and it was overwhelming for her. we found _ and it was overwhelming for her. we found she _ and it was overwhelming for her. we found she suddenly became more insular, _ found she suddenly became more insular, she couldn't handle stress insular, she couldn't handle stress in the _ insular, she couldn't handle stress in the education system, and it's a very different thing for a child moving — very different thing for a child moving from junior school to secondary school. we noticed she started _ secondary school. we noticed she started to — secondary school. we noticed she started to have tantrums and meltdowns and things like that. again, — meltdowns and things like that. again, typical of someone who has autism _ again, typical of someone who has autism we — again, typical of someone who has autism. we went to the gp who said, no, it's_ autism. we went to the gp who said, no, it's not— autism. we went to the gp who said, no, it's not being reported by the school, _ no, it's not being reported by the school, it— no, it's not being reported by the school, it is— no, it's not being reported by the school, it is troubles at home, you have _ school, it is troubles at home, you have to _ school, it is troubles at home, you have to deal— school, it is troubles at home, you have to deal with it. my wife was in tears _ have to deal with it. my wife was in tears at _ have to deal with it. my wife was in tears at the — have to deal with it. my wife was in tears at the gp saying it can't go

on. tears at the gp saying it can't go on the — tears at the gp saying it can't go on. the meltdowns continued, my daughter— on. the meltdowns continued, my daughter started to cut herself, she was ontine — daughter started to cut herself, she was online and other people were doing _ was online and other people were doing it — was online and other people were doing it. she had selective mute to periods _ doing it. she had selective mute to periods as— doing it. she had selective mute to periods as well, we would sit down to have _ periods as well, we would sit down to have a _ periods as well, we would sit down to have a nice chat and the one thing _ to have a nice chat and the one thing in — to have a nice chat and the one thing in my— to have a nice chat and the one thing in my child's favour was her mum _ thing in my child's favour was her mum who — thing in my child's favour was her mum who studies early child development, she used to work in a children's_ development, she used to work in a children's home for kids who had autism _ children's home for kids who had autism and — children's home for kids who had autism and troubled backgrounds, so she is— autism and troubled backgrounds, so she is very— autism and troubled backgrounds, so she is very good at sitting kids down — she is very good at sitting kids down and _ she is very good at sitting kids down and letting them express themselves. my daughter has a selective — themselves. my daughter has a selective mutism as well, so she would _ selective mutism as well, so she would shut— selective mutism as well, so she would shut down and not express anything — would shut down and not express anything. it was difficult to find out what — anything. it was difficult to find out what was going on. it was interesting hearing the child psychologist on naga's programme last week saying young kids with autism _ last week saying young kids with autism tend to mask, so at school teachers _ autism tend to mask, so at school teachers might not see it, they might— teachers might not see it, they might see _ teachers might not see it, they might see it in boys. we were seeing it at home _ might see it in boys. we were seeing it at home but they were not seeing it at home but they were not seeing it at home but they were not seeing it at school — it at home but they were not seeing it at school. one episode led to us

taking _ it at school. one episode led to us taking her— it at school. one episode led to us taking her to it at school. one episode led to us taking herto a&e, we it at school. one episode led to us taking her to a&e, we were so scared she would _ taking her to a&e, we were so scared she would do something to herself. she was— she would do something to herself. she was seen by the psychiatric team there and _ she was seen by the psychiatric team there and was released. she was offered _ there and was released. she was offered a — there and was released. she was offered a six week course with a local— offered a six week course with a local health care provider that looked — local health care provider that looked at her and said her problem was anxiety and self—confidence, so she was— was anxiety and self—confidence, so she was given a six week course on that _ she was given a six week course on that at— she was given a six week course on that at this — she was given a six week course on that. at this time, a few friends in her class — that. at this time, a few friends in her class came out as being transgender, started wearing clothing, both boys and girls, and one day— clothing, both boys and girls, and one day out of the blue our daughter came _ one day out of the blue our daughter came home, — one day out of the blue our daughter came home, just before her 13th birthday. — came home, just before her 13th birthday, being cajoled by her friends — birthday, being cajoled by her friends and she said she had something to tell us. her friends said they— something to tell us. her friends said they had to support her, and they said — said they had to support her, and they said her and not said they had to support her, and they said herand not him. so said they had to support her, and they said her and not him. so she said, _ they said her and not him. so she said. i_ they said her and not him. so she said. iwant— they said her and not him. so she said, i want to be a boy. we said, ok, said, i want to be a boy. we said, ok. fine, — said, i want to be a boy. we said, ok, fine, let's chat about this. do

you want— ok, fine, let's chat about this. do you want to — ok, fine, let's chat about this. do you want to be a boy or do you feel like you _ you want to be a boy or do you feel like you are — you want to be a boy or do you feel like you are a — you want to be a boy or do you feel like you are a boy. and then the selective — like you are a boy. and then the selective mutism came in, no discussion. _ selective mutism came in, no discussion, nothing. and to this day we have _ discussion, nothing. and to this day we have still not had a meaningful conversation about what that meant. and what _ conversation about what that meant. and what is — conversation about what that meant. and what is the situation at the moment? ., . ,, ., ., moment? rolling the clock forward, finall , moment? rolling the clock forward, finally. after — moment? rolling the clock forward, finally, after having, _ moment? rolling the clock forward, finally, after having, just _ moment? rolling the clock forward, finally, after having, just before - finally, after having, just before lockdown — finally, after having, just before lockdown we saw one paediatrician in a place _ lockdown we saw one paediatrician in a place called the lighthouse in essex — a place called the lighthouse in essex he — a place called the lighthouse in essex. he was on the fence. he said he could _ essex. he was on the fence. he said he could see — essex. he was on the fence. he said he could see some autistic traits and he _ he could see some autistic traits and he needed to refer to someone else _ and he needed to refer to someone else it _ and he needed to refer to someone else it was — and he needed to refer to someone else. it was covid so we had to wait a few— else. it was covid so we had to wait a few months. we went back and saw another— a few months. we went back and saw another paediatrician. my daughter before _ another paediatrician. my daughter before she went in said that she had dark thoughts about things. she couldn't— dark thoughts about things. she couldn't explain herself when she asked _ couldn't explain herself when she asked. she would go into mutism. we saw another— asked. she would go into mutism. we saw another commission person, and i use the _ saw another commission person, and i use the term _ saw another commission person, and i use the term loosely, but within five minutes she had made her mind

up five minutes she had made her mind up that— five minutes she had made her mind up that our— five minutes she had made her mind up that our daughter was suffering with gender dysmorphia, crisis, and we were _ with gender dysmorphia, crisis, and we were referred. we said, you have to he _ we were referred. we said, you have to be kidding, we were dismissed like that — to be kidding, we were dismissed like that. all these are the tests, even _ like that. all these are the tests, even teachers are saying that this child needs an autism diagnosis or least _ child needs an autism diagnosis or least an— child needs an autism diagnosis or least an assessment... white metal listen, _ least an assessment... white metal listen, you — least an assessment... white metal listen, you said, and i'm not cutting — listen, you said, and i'm not cutting you off because what you are saying _ cutting you off because what you are saying is _ cutting you off because what you are saying is so — cutting you off because what you are saying is so important. you cutting you off because what you are saying is so important.— saying is so important. you have said loads _ saying is so important. you have said loads of _ saying is so important. you have said loads of stuff _ saying is so important. you have said loads of stuff for _ saying is so important. you have said loads of stuff for us - saying is so important. you have said loads of stuff for us to - saying is so important. you have said loads of stuff for us to chew on. hearing about the struggle in yourfamily, hearing about on. hearing about the struggle in your family, hearing about your daughter, and it really does chime with some points made by the report that we need, whatever people think, we need a far more holistic approach when children come in and talk about gender stress. we have to find out, according to doctor cass, holistically what the underlying causes are, what is stemming from

things, what is causing things, what has been caused by things. my god, it is complicated, but that was a very important call. we can speak to keith in torquay. forgive me, i want to hearfrom more of you because many of you are getting in touch. good morning, keith, fire away. it was very interesting your last caller. i didn't get their name... phil. ., ., ., ., ., phil. yeah, a lot of what he was sa in: i phil. yeah, a lot of what he was saying i think — phil. yeah, a lot of what he was saying i think it _ phil. yeah, a lot of what he was saying i think it relates - phil. yeah, a lot of what he was saying i think it relates quite . phil. yeah, a lot of what he was saying i think it relates quite a i saying i think it relates quite a lot to our youngest, who now wants to be known by the pronouns them and they. i can relate a lot to what he was saying. my first experience was with our eldest, who is now 27. he

transitioned and is now an amazing, really happy young adult. it was a fabulous experience for him and really positive. i think from him coming and talking to us at the age of 16, all of the processes we went through with the nhs was really rigorous to make sure that it was right for him. and then all of the treatment he got down in brighton and the support we had as a family with him at their trust in exeter, they were excellent to speak to. i think the bottom line is, if a child is unhappy in the body they are in and they have the guts to speak to

you about it, as a parent all you can do really is be supportive as much as possible to try to make them a happier person and in a better place. dr a happier person and in a better lace. , ., , , a happier person and in a better lace., place. dr cass says in the report as well, something _ place. dr cass says in the report as well, something we _ place. dr cass says in the report as well, something we all— place. dr cass says in the report as well, something we all need - place. dr cass says in the report as well, something we all need to - place. dr cass says in the report as| well, something we all need to bear in mind, she believes none of our identities are at fixed points in our lives, things will ebb and flow and change. but then again, when you know, i guess you know. mast know, i guess you know. most definitely _ know, i guess you know. most definitely for _ know, i guess you know. most definitely for leo, _ know, i guess you know. most definitely for leo, that's - know, i guess you know. most definitely for leo, that's most | definitely for leo, that's most definite. they want... sorry, he, he is nonbinary but wants to be known as him. i am is nonbinary but wants to be known as him. iam happy, as a is nonbinary but wants to be known as him. i am happy, as a child come with the body he is in, but now he is just completely a different person, really supportive of other people in the same situation. we

speak to other people about it and it has just been brilliant for him. i am concerned about the report saying that it should go until the age of 25 because there are a lot of children that are really worried about it and that self—harm. .. children that are really worried about it and that self-harm. .. sure, dr cass says — about it and that self-harm. .. sure, dr cass says in _ about it and that self-harm. .. sure, dr cass says in the _ about it and that self-harm. .. sure, dr cass says in the conclusion - about it and that self-harm. .. sure, dr cass says in the conclusion and l dr cass says in the conclusion and addresses it directly to young people, she says you must have the same standards of care as everyone else in the nhs. that means basing treatments on good evidence, directly, you must have this care. she says she has been disappointed by the lack of evidence in the long—term impact of taking hormones from an early age. you also talk about being nonbinary, you said

nonbinary, is that right?- nonbinary, is that right? that's riuht. dr nonbinary, is that right? that's right- dr cass _ nonbinary, is that right? that's right. dr cass says _ nonbinary, is that right? that's right. dr cass says the - nonbinary, is that right? that's right. dr cass says the fastest l right. dr cass says the fastest curowin right. dr cass says the fastest growing group _ right. dr cass says the fastest growing group identifying - right. dr cass says the fastest i growing group identifying under right. dr cass says the fastest - growing group identifying under the trans umbrella is nonbinary and we know even less about the outcomes for this group because she says medication is by definition, by clinical definition, it is binary. i will bring in rebecca. i will ask keith another question if i get the chance. good morning, rebecca. goad chance. good morning, rebecca. good morninu. i chance. good morning, rebecca. good morning- i know— chance. good morning, rebecca. good morning. i know you _ chance. good morning, rebecca. good morning. i know you are _ chance. good morning, rebecca. good morning. i know you are talking - morning. i know you are talking about your _ morning. i know you are talking about your daughter, _ morning. i know you are talking about your daughter, tell - morning. i know you are talking about your daughter, tell us - morning. i know you are talking i about your daughter, tell us more. i'm talking about my daughter, yes. it was _ i'm talking about my daughter, yes. it was interesting to listen to the people _ it was interesting to listen to the people before me. pretty similar to the people before, my daughter went into secondary school and really struggled at secondary school. really— struggled at secondary school. really struggled to fit in. felt like she — really struggled to fit in. felt like she didn't look like the other girls. _ like she didn't look like the other girls. was— like she didn't look like the other girls, was horribly bullied, unbeknownst to me. and she went

online _ unbeknownst to me. and she went online to _ unbeknownst to me. and she went online to try to probably find out answers. — online to try to probably find out answers, try to get some answers to questions — answers, try to get some answers to questions like why is life so hard. stumble — questions like why is life so hard. stumble across many of the influencers out there, trans is wonderful— influencers out there, trans is wonderful and beautiful. and she thought. — wonderful and beautiful. and she thought, this is the answer to all my problems. in reality, she has had a lot of— my problems. in reality, she has had a lot of mental health problems and has always— a lot of mental health problems and has always suffered from terrible depression and anxiety. but it's her world _ depression and anxiety. but it's her world and _ depression and anxiety. but it's her world and this answered all her questions, she socially transitioned and changed her name without telling me at— and changed her name without telling me at school. the school went ahead and transitioned her without telling me. and transitioned her without telling me i_ and transitioned her without telling me i know— and transitioned her without telling me. i know that's another subject. it was _ me. i know that's another subject. it was a _ me. i know that's another subject. it was a very— me. i know that's another subject. it was a very hard time and nobody really— it was a very hard time and nobody really knew— it was a very hard time and nobody really knew what was going on. i didn't— really knew what was going on. i didn't know. we went to quite a few appointments. is didn't know. we went to quite a few appointments-— appointments. is she happier now? now she is —

appointments. is she happier now? now she is because _ appointments. is she happier now? now she is because we _ appointments. is she happier now? now she is because we have - appointments. is she happier now? now she is because we have givenl appointments. is she happier now? i now she is because we have given her a lot of— now she is because we have given her a lot of counselling. the school referred — a lot of counselling. the school referred her to the gender identity clinic, _ referred her to the gender identity clinic, again without us knowing. but she — clinic, again without us knowing. but she has been on a very long waiting — but she has been on a very long waiting list. for me and as it has worked _ waiting list. for me and as it has worked out — waiting list. for me and as it has worked out to be a really good thing because _ worked out to be a really good thing because i— worked out to be a really good thing because i paid for her to have lots of counselling, addressing the mental— of counselling, addressing the mental health issues she has. i think— mental health issues she has. i think it's — mental health issues she has. i think it's very important to note that the — think it's very important to note that the brain doesn't fully develop until you _ that the brain doesn't fully develop until you are about 24, 25. so to make _ until you are about 24, 25. so to make a — until you are about 24, 25. so to make a decision that such a young a-e make a decision that such a young age i— make a decision that such a young age i think— make a decision that such a young age i think is too early, it's not the right— age i think is too early, it's not the right time.— the right time. this is an issue that affects — the right time. this is an issue that affects many _ the right time. this is an issue that affects many people, i the right time. this is an issue i that affects many people, wherever they stand on this issue. as i said earlier we are talking about human beings. i am earlier we are talking about human beings. iam required earlier we are talking about human beings. i am required to ask questions and we have to put such caveats in with all this because it

is so toxic and we will get onto that in a second. i have to ask questions and the fact i ask a questions and the fact i ask a question doesn't mean i endorse the question, ijust want question doesn't mean i endorse the question, i just want to know the answer. some people are saying that the reason young people are suffering mental health problems, it's not that the mental health problems are leading for them to take this route, it's because the mental health problems are caused by the fact they are not able to take this route. i the fact they are not able to take this route. ~' ., the fact they are not able to take this route-— this route. i think in our case the mental health _ this route. i think in our case the mental health problems - this route. i think in our case the mental health problems were i this route. i think in our case the i mental health problems were because she was— mental health problems were because she was really suffering at school. she had _ she was really suffering at school. she had such a happy childhood and she was— she had such a happy childhood and she was such a happy child. and it alliust_ she was such a happy child. and it alljust came out of the blue. she really— alljust came out of the blue. she really struggled at school and didn't— really struggled at school and didn't like to tell us. it built up and built— didn't like to tell us. it built up and built up and she got more and more _ and built up and she got more and more unhappy and upset. something must be _ more unhappy and upset. something must be the matter with me. she has had a _ must be the matter with me. she has had a lot— must be the matter with me. she has had a lot of— must be the matter with me. she has had a lot of counselling and has

spoken. — had a lot of counselling and has spoken, she confessed that, she told us that— spoken, she confessed that, she told us that happened to her. but if i caniust — us that happened to her. but if i canjust forward wind us that happened to her. but if i can just forward wind and tell you what _ can just forward wind and tell you what happened, she just turned 20 the other— what happened, she just turned 20 the other day. she still presents guite _ the other day. she still presents quite masculine, that's fine. we are all free _ quite masculine, that's fine. we are all free to _ quite masculine, that's fine. we are all free to express what we look like _ all free to express what we look like but — all free to express what we look like. but she is a wonderful, happy and thriving — like. but she is a wonderful, happy and thriving lesbian. thank goodness i and thriving lesbian. thank goodness i didn't— and thriving lesbian. thank goodness i didn't take — and thriving lesbian. thank goodness i didn't take her down to one of the private _ i didn't take her down to one of the private gender clinics where she could _ private gender clinics where she could have been prescribed hormones and gone _ could have been prescribed hormones and gone down the wrong pathway. thank _ and gone down the wrong pathway. thank goodness we didn't do that, we 'ust thank goodness we didn't do that, we just watched and waited. first, do no harm. — just watched and waited. first, do no harm, look after your children. your— no harm, look after your children. your gut _ no harm, look after your children. your gut instinct is always the best thing _ your gut instinct is always the best thing to— your gut instinct is always the best thing to follow. that's what we did. thank— thing to follow. that's what we did. thank you _ thing to follow. that's what we did. thank you for getting in touch, rebecca. really appreciate it. let's ask keith a quick one if he is still there. i ask keith a quick one if he is still there. . , . ask keith a quick one if he is still there-_ you _ ask keith a quick one if he is still there._ you might i ask keith a quick one if he is still there._ you might be| ask keith a quick one if he is still i there._ you might be able there. i am, yeah. you might be able to address this. _ there. i am, yeah. you might be able to address this. dr— there. i am, yeah. you might be able to address this. dr cass _ there. i am, yeah. you might be able to address this. dr cass talks -

there. i am, yeah. you might be able to address this. dr cass talks about l to address this. dr cass talks about the toxicity in this particular debate that is stifling good practice. people are afraid of being piled upon or ostracised for making the wrong decision. and so it is clouding judgment. the wrong decision. and so it is cloudingjudgment. does the wrong decision. and so it is clouding judgment. does this toxicity, is it prevalent in society at large or is it predominantly a social media thing? i at large or is it predominantly a social media thing?— at large or is it predominantly a social media thing? i think it does come from _ social media thing? i think it does come from social— social media thing? i think it does come from social media _ social media thing? i think it does come from social media and i social media thing? i think it does come from social media and from | social media thing? i think it does i come from social media and from the radio quite a lot, in debates that people are being scaremonger it into worrying about things. i think the nhs have got it right at the moment. as far as i was aware, with our child anyway, they weren't allowed to be prescribed anything to change their hormones until after the age of 18. they are adults then, and it

should be their own decision. up until that age, as far as i was concerned, or aware, you were not allowed to be given any medical treatment until you were 18. thank ou. let treatment until you were 18. thank you- let me _ treatment until you were 18. thank you. let me bring _ treatment until you were 18. thank you. let me bring in, _ treatment until you were 18. thank you. let me bring in, because i treatment until you were 18. thank you. let me bring in, because thel you. let me bring in, because the guidance has recently changed on that. i can bring in ness, a recently out to trans person, is that right?— recently out to trans person, is i that right?— how's that right? yes, that's right. how's it feel and how _ that right? yes, that's right. how's it feel and how are _ that right? yes, that's right. how's it feel and how are you _ that right? yes, that's right. how's it feel and how are you now - that right? yes, that's right. how's i it feel and how are you now compared to how you were? for it feel and how are you now compared to how you were?— to how you were? for a lot of my life i to how you were? for a lot of my life i was — to how you were? for a lot of my life i was in _ to how you were? for a lot of my life i was in a _ to how you were? for a lot of my life i was in a deep _ to how you were? for a lot of my life i was in a deep depression i to how you were? for a lot of my. life i was in a deep depression and i life i was in a deep depression and i wasn't _ life i was in a deep depression and i wasn't sure — life i was in a deep depression and i wasn't sure what _ life i was in a deep depression and i wasn't sure what the _ life i was in a deep depression and i wasn't sure what the source i life i was in a deep depression and i wasn't sure what the source of. life i was in a deep depression and i wasn't sure what the source of it| i wasn't sure what the source of it was _ iwasn't sure what the source of it was it— iwasn't sure what the source of it was it feels— i wasn't sure what the source of it was. it feels amazing, _ i wasn't sure what the source of it was. it feels amazing, honestly. i was. it feels amazing, honestly. it's was. it feels amazing, honestly. it's been — was. it feels amazing, honestly. it's been a — was. it feels amazing, honestly. it's been a very— was. it feels amazing, honestly. it's been a very rocky— was. it feels amazing, honestly. it's been a very rocky road, i was. it feels amazing, honestly. it's been a very rocky road, butl it's been a very rocky road, but amazing — it's been a very rocky road, but amazing to _ it's been a very rocky road, but amazing to be _ it's been a very rocky road, but amazing to be out. _

it's been a very rocky road, but amazing to be out. overall- it's been a very rocky road, but amazing to be out. overall a i it's been a very rocky road, but . amazing to be out. overall a very positive, — amazing to be out. overall a very positive, a — amazing to be out. overall a very positive, a little _ amazing to be out. overall a very positive, a little bit— amazing to be out. overall a very positive, a little bit worried i amazing to be out. overall a very positive, a little bit worried and i amazing to be out. overall a veryj positive, a little bit worried and a little _ positive, a little bit worried and a little bit — positive, a little bit worried and a little bit of— positive, a little bit worried and a little bit of fear _ positive, a little bit worried and a little bit of fear there, _ positive, a little bit worried and a little bit of fear there, but - little bit of fear there, but overall— little bit of fear there, but overall pretty _ little bit of fear there, but overall pretty elated. i little bit of fear there, but overall pretty elated. where is the fear? the fear _ overall pretty elated. where is the fear? the fear is _ overall pretty elated. where is the fear? the fear is about _ overall pretty elated. where is the fear? the fear is about why - overall pretty elated. where is the | fear? the fear is about why society isn't always — fear? the fear is about why society isn't always the _ fear? the fear is about why society isn't always the kindest _ fear? the fear is about why society isn't always the kindest to - fear? the fear is about why society isn't always the kindest to trans i isn't always the kindest to trans people — isn't always the kindest to trans eo - le. ,., , isn't always the kindest to trans heole. , ., isn't always the kindest to trans --eole. , ., , isn't always the kindest to trans ”eole. , ., , ., isn't always the kindest to trans --eole. , ., , ., people. does that stray from social media into your _ people. does that stray from social media into your interactions - people. does that stray from social media into your interactions with i media into your interactions with people as you go about your life? social media is one part of interacting _ social media is one part of interacting with— social media is one part of interacting with the - social media is one part of interacting with the widerl social media is one part of- interacting with the wider world. but it— interacting with the wider world. but it is— interacting with the wider world. but it is so— interacting with the wider world. but it is so much— interacting with the wider world. but it is so much bigger- interacting with the wider world. but it is so much bigger than i interacting with the wider world. i but it is so much bigger than that. it is everywhere, _ but it is so much bigger than that. it is everywhere, it's— but it is so much bigger than that. it is everywhere, it's ingrained i but it is so much bigger than that. it is everywhere, it's ingrained in i it is everywhere, it's ingrained in us from — it is everywhere, it's ingrained in us from very— it is everywhere, it's ingrained in us from very young _ it is everywhere, it's ingrained in us from very young years. - it is everywhere, it's ingrained in us from very young years. we i it is everywhere, it's ingrained ini us from very young years. we get told that _ us from very young years. we get told that boys — us from very young years. we get told that boys do _ us from very young years. we get told that boys do this, _ us from very young years. we get told that boys do this, girls - us from very young years. we get told that boys do this, girls do. told that boys do this, girls do this, _ told that boys do this, girls do this, and — told that boys do this, girls do this, and you _ told that boys do this, girls do this, and you don't _ told that boys do this, girls do this, and you don't mix- told that boys do this, girls do this, and you don't mix the i told that boys do this, girls do. this, and you don't mix the two. yeah, _ this, and you don't mix the two. yeah, boys _ this, and you don't mix the two. yeah, boys do _ this, and you don't mix the two. yeah, boys do this, _ this, and you don't mix the two. yeah, boys do this, girls - this, and you don't mix the two. yeah, boys do this, girls do i this, and you don't mix the two. | yeah, boys do this, girls do this, but then some people feel they are a girl and they weren't born in that

body. i think we've just lost ness. are you still there, ness? i am still there. _ are you still there, ness? i am still there, yes. _ are you still there, ness? i am still there, yes. what - are you still there, ness? i am still there, yes. what you i are you still there, ness? i am still there, yes. what you are i still there, yes. what you are talking — still there, yes. what you are talking about _ still there, yes. what you are talking about with _ still there, yes. what you are talking about with being i still there, yes. what you are talking about with being borni still there, yes. what you are . talking about with being born in still there, yes. what you are - talking about with being born in the wrong _ talking about with being born in the wrong bodym — talking about with being born in the wrong bodym 1— talking about with being born in the wrong body-"— wrong body... i have to say one thin , wrong body... i have to say one thing. thank — wrong body... i have to say one thing, thank you _ wrong body... i have to say one thing, thank you for _ wrong body... i have to say one thing, thank you for watching i wrong body... i have to say one | thing, thank you for watching on wrong body... i have to say one - thing, thank you for watching on bbc news, you will be leaving us. hello there. tuesday unfortunately brought more stormy weather with it and coastal flooding with the high tides as well as inland flooding. a brief ridge of high pressure is pushing that low pressure out of the way but the weather fronts are hot off the heels again, off the atlantic, with more rain to come through the day ahead. this is what we had on tuesday, 60 millimetres and more across beddgelert in north wales. many of the other wettest places seeing 30—a0 millimetres of rain. and despite the showers having eased, the rain and winds through the night, and it turns chilly with a touch of frost, potentially, a few areas first thing, and some mist and fog in the south, already temperatures are rising in the west ahead of the next band of rain that you may have seen there. 50, wet through the morning rush across northern ireland

underneath this weather front. and as it comes in, it's introducing milder atlantic air so it will turn misty and foggy over the hills, as well as the fog first thing further east. once it sets in across scotland on and off through the day, early brightness and sunshine in the east replaced by that rain as it meanders eastwards through the day. you can see it does ease off a little bit in southern parts but it's got a legacy of cloud left in its wake. so, a mild day where we see any breaks, perhaps 16 in northern ireland, but there is a met office warning for the west of scotland. again, another a0 millimetres, possibly more, over the hills. further south there will be a steady spell of rain and lots of misty, murky weather over the hills. another pulse comes in through the evening and overnight, particularly scotland and northern ireland. it tends to weaken as it pushes southwards, but all the cloud and the wind, and the winds will be strong again today, perhaps not as strong as yesterday, but they hold the temperatures up through the night. and a fairly brisk wind will continue with us on thursday, maybe some mist and murk first thing, particularly in the south underneath the remnants of this weather front. but actually once that clears out

of the way we might see some brighter skies and sunshine coming through before the next pulse of rain starts to materialise across western parts again. but look at the temperatures on thursday, it's looking mild, in fact warm in the strengthening april sunshine. and that milder, warmer atlantic air is with us through thursday and indeed friday to end the week, perhaps even start the weekend. but not for long, because we get some colder air starting to dig in behind it and you can see for the weekend, or by the end of the weekend, it's a return to slightly cooler weather for most. you are watching bbc news coverage of the post office it scandal. more than 900 subpostmasters and mistresses were prosecuted because of the post office scandal. now many

of the post office scandal. now many of them were to do with this faulty it scandal, the horizon it scandal. they lost their homes and livelihoods and many say they lost their health. several suicides have been linked to what is widely now considered the biggest miscarriage ofjustice in uk history. so far this next phase of the inquiry has been trying to determine who knew what and when. we will be hearing over the course of the next few weeks from some of the people who have occupied the highest levels of power at the post office, including paula vennells, who will appear in may, the former chief executive, and speaking to some victims here, they have told me that everyone they know will be turning up. they are a big community and they want to be here to hear paula vennells answer difficult questions will stop yesterday the inquiry heard from alan bates, the former subpostmaster who has been leading the campaign for more than 20 years.

he had a brutal assessment of the post office, calling it atrocious, a dead duck beyond saving. he called them vindictive, saying they tried to discredit and silence him for more than 20 years. today we will hear from more than 20 years. today we will hearfrom lord more than 20 years. today we will hear from lord arbuthnot. more than 20 years. today we will hearfrom lord arbuthnot. we have announcements coming in. lord arbuthnot will be appearing today, he is a tory peer and former mp. sanchia berg's report has a preview of the proceedings today. across the country, many small post offices are still valued by their communities. once, jo hamilton ran her own small post office, then she fell foul of the horizon computer system. wrongly prosecuted for false accounting, she turned to her local mp. for many years, james, now lord arbuthnot, has been the postmasters' most trusted voice in parliament, demanding

answers from ministers and post office executives. this morning, he will take his turn at the post office inquiry, along with the retired appeal court judge, who chaired the first failed attempt at mediation back in 2013. former postmaster alan bates gave evidence yesterday, covering 23 years of battling the post office in just a few hours. it began when he was a postmaster, asking question after question about the horizon system. what do you understand to be the reason for the termination of your contract? well... well, basically, ithink it was because... a, they didn't like me standing up to them in the first instance. b, they were finding it awkward. and c, i don't think they could answer these questions. after years of fighting, helping many hundreds of postmasters, how would he describe the culture of the post office? they're an atrocious organisation.