this morning, he will take his turn at the post office inquiry, along with the retired appeal court judge, who chaired the first failed attempt at mediation back in 2013. former postmaster alan bates gave evidence yesterday, covering 23 years of battling the post office in just a few hours. it began when he was a postmaster, asking question after question about the horizon system. what do you understand to be the reason for the termination of your contract? well... well, basically, ithink it was because... a, they didn't like me standing up to them in the first instance. b, they were finding it awkward. and c, i don't think they could answer these questions. after years of fighting, helping many hundreds of postmasters, how would he describe the culture of the post office? they're an atrocious organisation.

they need disbanding, it needs removing, it needs building up again from the ground floor. and, as i've been quoted quite commonly, the whole of the postal service nowadays, it's beyond — it's a dead duck — it's beyond saving. alan bates said the post office should be sold to someone like amazon. sanchia berg, bbc news. let me tell you more about lord james arbuthnot who is going to be appearing today. as we heard there he is a tory peer and former conservative mp who got into this fight once his own constituentjo hamilton became a victim and lost her life savings. despite the fact that they it was discovered there was no actual evidence against her but that she was knocked over this by the post office. he has been fighting this campaign for more than

14 fighting this campaign for more than 1a years and for much of the time he was mp he was their soul voice in parliament. his assessment of all that this in the past has been very straightforward, he said this was a perversion of the course ofjustice and that he believes there responsible for this scandal should base a long spell in jail. we are also going to hear later today from sir anthony hooper who chaired the mediation scheme between the sub—postmasters and the post office. that started in 2013 and it was seen to have gone nowhere but he will have a lot of knowledge of what went on and the correspondences between post office executives which are so crucial to answering that question of who knew what and when. also he did at the time raise questions about the horizon it system and about the horizon it system and about whether it was working properly. he questioned whether this

sub—postmaster is and mitch looses work to guilty. so much what he will have heard will be crucial evidence as the inquiry of the next 15 weeks continues to question top executives at the post office because that is what we have been seeing in the kings council over the last few weeks and months. he has been putting these correspondences, the evidence of the testimony is bringing forward, to then put this to the executives. in terms of the public inquiry itself it is trying to answer these questions but the met police is also said it is watching these proceedings very closely. the post office minister kevin hollinrake, he has told the bbc that eventually once evidence has been established he believes those responsible should face jail. as far as the victims here that i have been speaking to are concerned, they recognise what the post office has said and have heard that the

post office is deeply sorry for the impact that this has had on victims, but it is doing its best to seek the truth alongside the inquiry, but as far as are concerned, they don't quite believe that, it is not good enough and what they want to see eventually its financial redress, the overturning of all convictions and those are sensible seeing jail time. the inquiry is beginning now. they are doing the checks and balances, swearing in lord james arbuthnot, so let's take a listen. that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.— nothing but the truth. thank you very much- _ nothing but the truth. thank you very much. lord _ nothing but the truth. thank you very much. lord arbuthnot, - nothing but the truth. thank you very much. lord arbuthnot, i- nothing but the truth. thank you j very much. lord arbuthnot, i am counsel— very much. lord arbuthnot, i am counsel to — very much. lord arbuthnot, i am counsel to the inquiry, jason beer, can you _ counsel to the inquiry, jason beer, can you give — counsel to the inquiry, jason beer, can you give us your full name? james _ can you give us your full name? james arbuthnot.— james arbuthnot. thank you for ”rovidin james arbuthnot. thank you for providing the — james arbuthnot. thank you for providing the inquiry _

james arbuthnot. thank you for providing the inquiry with - james arbuthnot. thank you for providing the inquiry with a - james arbuthnot. thank you forj providing the inquiry with a very detailed — providing the inquiry with a very detailed witness statement and for giving _ detailed witness statement and for giving evidence today to assist us in our— giving evidence today to assist us in our investigation. in relation to the witness — in our investigation. in relation to the witness statement you have provided. — the witness statement you have provided, and we look at it, please, the only— provided, and we look at it, please, the only time i will ask you to look at hard _ the only time i will ask you to look at hard document. you are in is... the _ at hard document. you are in is... the witness — at hard document. you are in is... the witness statement is 180 pages in length _ the witness statement is 180 pages in length excluding its exhibits and dated _ in length excluding its exhibits and dated the — in length excluding its exhibits and dated the 12th of march 2024. can you turn _ dated the 12th of march 2024. can you turn to — dated the 12th of march 2024. can you turn to page 180, please? yes. is that you turn to page 180, please? yes. is that your— you turn to page 180, please? yes. is that your signature? _ you turn to page 180, please? yes. is that your signature? it _ you turn to page 180, please? yes. is that your signature? it is. - you turn to page 180, please? yes. is that your signature? it is. or - is that your signature? it is. or the contents _ is that your signature? it is. or the contents of _ is that your signature? it is. or the contents of that _ is that your signature? it 3 or the contents of that witness statement true to the best of your knowledge and belief was ill they are. knowledge and belief was ill they are your— knowledge and belief was ill they are. your witness statement is exceptionally detailed and you kindiv— exceptionally detailed and you kindly devoted what is obviously being _ kindly devoted what is obviously being a — kindly devoted what is obviously being a substantial period of time to the _ being a substantial period of time to the making of it, and you have set out _ to the making of it, and you have set out relevant events in chronological order adding in your recollections where you have

remaining recollections and providing us with documents in your possession — providing us with documents in your possession. that witness statement will he _ possession. that witness statement will be uploaded to the inquiry website — will be uploaded to the inquiry website today so it is available for public _ website today so it is available for public view. i am accordingly not going _ public view. i am accordingly not going to — public view. i am accordingly not going to ask you about every matter within— going to ask you about every matter within it _ going to ask you about every matter within it. ,., ., going to ask you about every matter within it-- it — going to ask you about every matter within it.- it stands _ going to ask you about every matter within it.- it stands is - going to ask you about every matter within it. good. it stands is your evidence and _ within it. good. it stands is your evidence and is _ within it. good. it stands is your evidence and is being _ within it. good. it stands is your evidence and is being made - within it. (rrn it stands is your evidence and is being made available as i evidence and is being made available as i say _ evidence and is being made available as i say. instead i'm going to take you it— as i say. instead i'm going to take you if i_ as i say. instead i'm going to take you if i may— as i say. instead i'm going to take you if i may to some of the more significant — you if i may to some of the more significant events that have occurred over the last 15 years or so, since — occurred over the last 15 years or so, since your first involvement with _ so, since your first involvement with the — so, since your first involvement with the horizon system and the post office's _ with the horizon system and the post office's running a bit, which was in 0ffice's running a bit, which was in april— 0ffice's running a bit, which was in april 2009— 0ffice's running a bit, which was in april 2009 i— office's running a bit, which was in april 2009 i believe. i will ask for your further recollection about them — your further recollection about them. can we start with a little about _ them. can we start with a little about your _ them. can we start with a little about your background, would you agree _ about your background, would you agree with — about your background, would you agree with this summary, you are firmly— agree with this summary, you are firmly a _ agree with this summary, you are firmly a barrister practising in chancery— firmly a barrister practising in chancery matters?— firmly a barrister practising in chancery matters? yes. you are a member of — chancery matters? yes you are a

member of parliament between 1987 and march 2015.— member of parliament between 1987 and march 2015. yes. and in that eriod and march 2015. yes. and in that period you _ and march 2015. yes. and in that period you were _ and march 2015. yes. and in that period you were a _ and march 2015. 19:3 and in that period you were a backbench and march 2015. 193 and in that period you were a backbench mp, you held senior— period you were a backbench mp, you held senior positions in government including _ held senior positions in government including in— held senior positions in government including in trade and industry, work— including in trade and industry, work and — including in trade and industry, work and pensions and defence. yes. and ou work and pensions and defence. yes. and you held — work and pensions and defence. yes. and you held senior _ work and pensions and defence. 193 and you held senior positions as an opposition— and you held senior positions as an opposition mp including as assistant chief whip, shadow secretary for trade _ chief whip, shadow secretary for trade and — chief whip, shadow secretary for trade and industry and chair of the defence _ trade and industry and chair of the defence select committee. | trade and industry and chair of the defence select committee. i was actually full _ defence select committee. i was actually full chief _ defence select committee. i was actually full chief whip. - defence select committee. i was actually full chief whip. i - defence select committee. i was actually full chief whip. i am - defence select committee. i was actually full chief whip. i am so i actually full chief whip. i am so sor . in actually full chief whip. i am so sorry. in october— actually full chief whip. i am so sorry. in october 2015 - actually full chief whip. i am so sorry. in october 2015 you - actually full chief whip. i am so | sorry. in october 2015 you made actually full chief whip. i am so i sorry. in october 2015 you made a life peer~ — sorry. in october 2015 you made a life eer. . sorry. in october 2015 you made a life peer-- you _ sorry. in october 2015 you made a life peer. yes. you have been extensively — life peer. yes. you have been extensively involved - life peer. yes. you have been extensively involved in - life peer. 193 you have been extensively involved in and played a significant _ extensively involved in and played a significant role in the investigation of the horizon system, the use _ investigation of the horizon system, the use of— investigation of the horizon system, the use of data from that system to prosecute _ the use of data from that system to prosecute and bring civil proceedings against sub—postmasters and crown— proceedings against sub—postmasters and crown office employees, the conduct — and crown office employees, the conduct and behaviour of post office

employees, senior executives and board _ employees, senior executives and board members, the conduct of government, the operation of the legal— government, the operation of the legal system and of the courts and the process of seeking redress and accountability, is that a fair summary?— accountability, is that a fair summary?- that - accountability, is that a fair summary?- that all. accountability, is that a fair summary? yes. that all began i think with a coffee — summary? 193 that all began i think with a coffee morning in your constituency on the 3rd of april 2009. — constituency on the 3rd of april 2009. is — constituency on the 3rd of april 2009, is that right?— constituency on the 3rd of april 2009, is that right? yes. and then i think ou 2009, is that right? 193 and then i think you learned about the case of joe holt— think you learned about the case of joe holt and. | think you learned about the case of joe holt and-— think you learned about the case of joe holt and.- your _ joe holt and. i did. your involvement _ joe holt and. i did. your involvement continues l joe holt and. i did. your involvement continues i | joe holt and. i did. your - involvement continues i think to this day— involvement continues i think to this day not least because you are a member— this day not least because you are a member of— this day not least because you are a member of the horizon compensation advisory— member of the horizon compensation advisory board. that member of the horizon compensation advisory ihoard-— member of the horizon compensation advisory ihard-— member of the horizon compensation advisory board._ as - member of the horizon compensation advisory board._ as i - advisory board. that is right. as i have said your— advisory board. that is right. as i have said your first _ advisory board. that is right. as i have said your first involvement l have said your first involvement came _ have said your first involvement came about i think by reason of being _ came about i think by reason of being told — came about i think by reason of being told aboutjoe came about i think by reason of being told about joe hamilton's case~ _ being told about joe hamilton's case. . i being told about joe hamilton's case._ i think- being told about joe hamilton's i case._ i think you also case. yes, it did. i think you also learned about _ case. yes, it did. i think you also learned about an _ case. yes, it did. i think you also learned about an article - case. yes, it did. i think you also learned about an article that - case. yes, it did. i think you also learned about an article that was| learned about an article that was being _ learned about an article that was being written and hadn't yet been published but it was being written by rebecca thompson of computer weekly, _ by rebecca thompson of computer weekly, is — by rebecca thompson of computer weekly, is that right? yes. i think

ou had weekly, is that right? yes. i think you had told _ weekly, is that right? yes. i think you had told us _ weekly, is that right? yes. i think you had told us he _ weekly, is that right? 193 ithink you had told us he already held that publication in high regard because of some _ publication in high regard because of some previous involvement in some work it— of some previous involvement in some work it had _ of some previous involvement in some work it had done. the of some previous involvement in some work it had done.— work it had done. the oh yes, the crash on the _ work it had done. the oh yes, the crash on the mull _ work it had done. the oh yes, the crash on the mull of _ work it had done. the oh yes, the crash on the mull of cantata. - work it had done. the oh yes, the| crash on the mull of cantata. then later in 2000 _ crash on the mull of cantata. then later in 2000 nine _ crash on the mull of cantata. then later in 2000 nine he _ crash on the mull of cantata. then later in 2000 nine he learnt of a second — later in 2000 nine he learnt of a second case of david bristow a former— second case of david bristow a former sub—postmaster in odiham, is it right _ former sub—postmaster in odiham, is it right with _ former sub—postmaster in odiham, is it right with the oh, yes. his contract _ it right with the oh, yes. his contract was terminated by the post office _ contract was terminated by the post office by— contract was terminated by the post office by reason of an alleged shortfall of £42,000. he suggested that the _ shortfall of £42,000. he suggested that the horizon system was responsible for the shortfall, is that a — responsible for the shortfall, is that a pair— responsible for the shortfall, is that a pair summary?— responsible for the shortfall, is that a pair summary? yes. as wellas that a pair summary? yes. as well as lots of liaison _ that a pair summary? 193 as well as lots of liaison with those who had drawn _ lots of liaison with those who had drawn your — lots of liaison with those who had drawn your attention to those two cases. _ drawn your attention to those two cases. jo — drawn your attention to those two cases, jo hamilton and mr bristow, and liaison— cases, jo hamilton and mr bristow, and liaison over permission to use the information that you had been

given, _ the information that you had been given, i_ the information that you had been given, i have seen all of the correspondence where you sought such permission. _ correspondence where you sought such permission, would it be right that the person— permission, would it be right that the person significant step that you took was _ the person significant step that you took was to write to lord peter mandelson who was then the secretary of state _ mandelson who was then the secretary of state for _ mandelson who was then the secretary of state for business, innovation and skills?— of state for business, innovation and skills?_ good| of state for business, innovation i and skills?_ good we and skills? that is correct. good we look at that — and skills? that is correct. good we look at that for _ and skills? that is correct. good we look at that for a _ and skills? that is correct. good we look at that for a significant - and skills? that is correct. good we look at that for a significant step? l look at that for a significant step? the document will come upon the screen1~ — the document will come upon the screen1~ it— the document will come upon the screen,. it is page nine. in large so we can see the text. thank— in large so we can see the text. thank you _ in large so we can see the text. thank you. you write on the ninth of, thank you. you write on the ninth of. sorry, — thank you. you write on the ninth of. sorry, the _ thank you. you write on the ninth of, sorry, the 3rd of november 2009,

to lord _ of, sorry, the 3rd of november 2009, to lord peter— of, sorry, the 3rd of november 2009, to lord peter mandelson, the secretary of state for business, innovation and skills, sometimes known _ innovation and skills, sometimes known as— innovation and skills, sometimes known as biz. you say you enclosed to emails — known as biz. you say you enclosed to e—mails you have received my constituent, mr david bristow, you -ive constituent, mr david bristow, you give his— constituent, mr david bristow, you give his address, i will not show you those — give his address, i will not show you those e—mails for the moment, it is not _ you those e—mails for the moment, it is not necessary. you note that a po raised _ is not necessary. you note that a po raised by— is not necessary. you note that a po raised by a _ is not necessary. you note that a po raised by a brooks newmark mp on the top of— raised by a brooks newmark mp on the top of october and the reply of the 13th of— top of october and the reply of the 13th of october from alan cooke, the md of— 13th of october from alan cooke, the md of the _ 13th of october from alan cooke, the md of the post office. then you say this, nonetheless there does appear to be a _ this, nonetheless there does appear to be a significant number of postmasters and post mistresses accused — postmasters and post mistresses accused of fraud who claim that the horizon _ accused of fraud who claim that the horizon system is responsible, including — horizon system is responsible, including at least two in my constituency. given the level of impact — constituency. given the level of impact this has had on the personal lives of— impact this has had on the personal

lives of these postmasters and post mistresses and their families, often involving _ mistresses and their families, often involving bankruptcy and certainly significant financial hardship, i should — significant financial hardship, i should be most grateful if you would let me _ should be most grateful if you would let me have your comments on what can be _ let me have your comments on what can be done — let me have your comments on what can be done to investigate the matter~ — can be done to investigate the matter. this is, to put this in context. _ matter. this is, to put this in context, you as an opposition mp at this time? _ context, you as an opposition mp at this time? l— context, you as an opposition mp at this time? :. . context, you as an opposition mp at this time?- writing _ context, you as an opposition mp at this time?- writing to - context, you as an opposition mp at this time?- writing to the - this time? i was. writing to the then secretary _ this time? i was. writing to the then secretary of _ this time? i was. writing to the then secretary of state, - this time? i was. writing to the | then secretary of state, drawing this time? i was. writing to the - then secretary of state, drawing his attention _ then secretary of state, drawing his attention directly to the suggestion that horizon was responsible for shortfalls which were being laid at the door— shortfalls which were being laid at the door of sub—postmasters by accusations against them of fraud. yes. ~ , , :, ._ yes. why were you writing, may i ask, to yes. why were you writing, may i ask. to the _ yes. why were you writing, may i ask, to the government - yes. why were you writing, may i ask, to the government rather. yes. why were you writing, may i l ask, to the government rather than to the _ ask, to the government rather than to the post— ask, to the government rather than to the post office, who ran this horizon — to the post office, who ran this horizon system?— horizon system? because the government _ horizon system? because the government owned _ horizon system? because the government owned the - horizon system? because the government owned the post | horizon system? because the - government owned the post office. i think you followed this up with a chaser, — think you followed this up with a chaser, if— think you followed this up with a chaser, if we look at page three of

the pack— chaser, if we look at page three of the pack here, same clip. if we can expand _ the pack here, same clip. if we can expand that— the pack here, same clip. if we can expand that a little bit... we are now on— expand that a little bit... we are now on the — expand that a little bit... we are now on the 10th of december 2009. you write _ now on the 10th of december 2009. you write to — now on the 10th of december 2009. you write to lord mandelson again saying. _ you write to lord mandelson again saying. i— you write to lord mandelson again saying, i write further to my letter of the _ saying, i write further to my letter of the 3rd — saying, i write further to my letter of the 3rd of november, regarding correspondence received from david bristow _ correspondence received from david bristow i_ correspondence received from david bristow. i enclose a copy of my previous — bristow. i enclose a copy of my previous letters and the two e—mails to which— previous letters and the two e—mails to which it _ previous letters and the two e—mails to which it refers, i also enclose to which it refers, i also enclose to micro — to which it refers, i also enclose to micro subsequent e—mails from mr bristow— to micro subsequent e—mails from mr bristow and _ to micro subsequent e—mails from mr bristow and an e—mail from a local councillor— bristow and an e—mail from a local councillorjohn kennett. describing councillor john kennett. describing the councillorjohn kennett. describing the circumstances of the second post office _ the circumstances of the second post office in _ the circumstances of the second post office in my _ the circumstances of the second post office in my constituency affected by the _ office in my constituency affected by the horizon system, jo hamilton of the _ by the horizon system, jo hamilton of the south former post office in hampshire. i have not yet received a reply— hampshire. i have not yet received a reply and _ hampshire. i have not yet received a reply and she'll be most grateful if you would — reply and she'll be most grateful if you would let me have your comments on the _ you would let me have your comments on the matter. i also request

reassurance that business, innovation and skills the department will investigate this matter fully and take — will investigate this matter fully and take action as and where appropriate, given the urgency of mr bristow— appropriate, given the urgency of mr bristow because my situation i would ask your— bristow because my situation i would ask your attention as soon as possible _ ask your attention as soon as possible and response by way of letter _ possible and response by way of letter or— possible and response by way of letter or if— possible and response by way of letter or if you preferred a meeting. so you were asking here that the _ meeting. so you were asking here that the department for, innovation and skills— that the department for, innovation and skills should investigate the matter— and skills should investigate the matter may i ask why were you asking the department to look into the matter— the department to look into the matter whether than asking the secretary of state to at the post office _ secretary of state to at the post office to — secretary of state to at the post office to look into the post office? i office to look into the post office? i was _ office to look into the post office? i was not — office to look into the post office? i was not hugely interested in the intricacies of who was responsible for what, intricacies of who was responsible forwhat, ijust intricacies of who was responsible for what, ijust wanted it sorted out. i thought i might as well write to the person who owned it who was peter mandelson. in to the person who owned it who was peter mandelson.— to the person who owned it who was peter mandelson. in the meantime, it seems that a — peter mandelson. in the meantime, it seems that a letter _ peter mandelson. in the meantime, it seems that a letter had _ peter mandelson. in the meantime, it

seems that a letter had been - peter mandelson. in the meantime, it seems that a letter had been drafted l seems that a letter had been drafted and perhaps even sent by way of reply— and perhaps even sent by way of reply to — and perhaps even sent by way of reply to your first letter. if we could — reply to your first letter. if we could look _ reply to your first letter. if we could look at that, please. you will see this is dated the 5th of december 2009, and presumably this hadnt— of december 2009, and presumably this hadn't been received by you by the time _ this hadn't been received by you by the time you hit send your letter of the time you hit send your letter of the 10th _ the time you hit send your letter of the 10th of— the time you hit send your letter of the 10th of december. presumably. yes. you the 10th of december. presumably. yes- you will— the 10th of december. presumably. yes. you will see _ the 10th of december. presumably. yes. you will see if _ the 10th of december. presumably. yes. you will see if we _ the 10th of december. presumably. yes. you will see if we just - the 10th of december. presumably. yes. you will see if we just scroll i yes. you will see if we 'ust scroll to the bottom. h yes. you will see if we just scroll to the bottom, please... - yes. you will see if we just scroll to the bottom, please... it- yes. you will see if we just scroll to the bottom, please... it is- yes. you will see if we just scroll. to the bottom, please... it is sent by the _ to the bottom, please... it is sent by the minister. pat mcfadden, rather— by the minister. pat mcfadden, rather than the secretary of state lord mandelson. then if we go to the body of— lord mandelson. then if we go to the body of the _ lord mandelson. then if we go to the body of the letter, please. he

thanks— body of the letter, please. he thanks you for the letter of the 3rd of novemberand thanks you for the letter of the 3rd of november and says he is applying as a minister of state for innovation and skills. and he says, under— innovation and skills. and he says, under the — innovation and skills. and he says, under the government's secretary reforms _ under the government's secretary reforms introduced in 2001, royal mail, _ reforms introduced in 2001, royal mail, which includes post office limited. — mail, which includes post office limited, was given greater commercial freedom as a management and unions _ commercial freedom as a management and unions had requested and government had assumed, has assumed an arm's—length role as a shareholder in a public limited company _ shareholder in a public limited company. subject to agreeing a strategic— company. subject to agreeing a strategic plan with us the board constructed the business as it decides — constructed the business as it decides best to meet the challenges of market— decides best to meet the challenges of market development and changing customer— of market development and changing customer needs. the issues raised by your constituent are operational and contractual— your constituent are operational and contractual matters for the post office _ contractual matters for the post office and not for government. i understand from the post office that errors _ understand from the post office that errors at _ understand from the post office that errors at the branch have been fully investigated and there is nothing to indicate _ investigated and there is nothing to indicate that there are any problems with the _ indicate that there are any problems with the horizon system. the

company's position as regards the integrity— company's position as regards the integrity of the horizon system remains — integrity of the horizon system remains as set out in the reply from alan cook— remains as set out in the reply from alan cook which your letter refers. you will _ alan cook which your letter refers. you will see — alan cook which your letter refers. you will see that in the second paragraph there, mr mcfadden took the point _ paragraph there, mr mcfadden took the point or took the line that the government had assumed an arm's—length role as a shareholder with the _ arm's—length role as a shareholder with the post office and that in the third paragraph, the issues raised by you. _ third paragraph, the issues raised by you, which included that a large number— by you, which included that a large number of— by you, which included that a large number of people may have been wrongly— number of people may have been wrongly accused of crimes when in fact horizon was to blame, was not a matter— fact horizon was to blame, was not a matter for— fact horizon was to blame, was not a matter for the government. yes. what was our matter for the government. 193 what was your reaction if any to those points? — was your reaction if any to those points? l— was your reaction if any to those oints? :. . was your reaction if any to those oints? :,, , ., ., points? i was frustrated and annoyed. — points? i was frustrated and annoyed, but _ points? i was frustrated and annoyed, but it _ points? i was frustrated and annoyed, but it was - points? i was frustrated and annoyed, but it was clear i points? i was frustrated and i annoyed, but it was clear that points? i was frustrated and - annoyed, but it was clear that the

government was saying that it was really nothing to do with them and i didn't see at that stage where i could take it.— could take it. where will you frustrated _ could take it. where will you frustrated -- _ could take it. where will you frustrated -- why _ could take it. where will you frustrated -- why were - could take it. where will you frustrated -- why were you i frustrated —— why were you frustrated? frustrated -- why were you frustrated ?_ frustrated -- why were you frustrated? �* :. , ., ., frustrated? because i wanted what had seemed _ frustrated? because i wanted what had seemed to _ frustrated? because i wanted what had seemed to me _ frustrated? because i wanted what had seemed to me to _ frustrated? because i wanted what had seemed to me to be _ frustrated? because i wanted what | had seemed to me to be something that was potentially an injustice to be sorted out, and since the government owned the post office i assumed that the government would be in a position to sort it out, but they were saying, no, not me, guv. details tells a new witness statement that notwithstanding the frustration that you felt at the time, — frustration that you felt at the time, it— frustration that you felt at the time, it didn't then occur to you quite _ time, it didn't then occur to you quite how— time, it didn't then occur to you quite how troubling the reply was. yes. :. , :, quite how troubling the reply was. yes. :, , :, , ., ., quite how troubling the reply was. yes. :, i. , ., ., i. quite how troubling the reply was. yes. :, , :, , ., ., , :, ., yes. can you explain what you mean b that? yes. can you explain what you mean by that? what _ yes. can you explain what you mean by that? what this _ yes. can you explain what you mean by that? what this arm's-length - by that? what this arm's-length arrangement — by that? what this arm's-length arrangement essentially - by that? what this arm's-length arrangement essentially means| by that? what this arm's-length i arrangement essentially means is that the government is refusing to

take the responsibilities that go with ownership. i don't think it is right to do that for various reasons. one reason is that if you have an organisation that is as important to the community as the post office is, then the people have got to be able to have proper control over it if the people own it, and there is a sort of democratic deficit that is popping up democratic deficit that is popping up here, if the government is refusing to take responsibility for it. also i know that mr henry has been talking about the risks of owning a dangerous dog, you cannot say that the dangerous dog has an arm's—length relationship with you.

if the dangerous dog behaves badly. so the whole process of arm's—length control is a worrying one, it seems to me. ~ : :. control is a worrying one, it seems to me. ~ : ., :, to me. much later on in the chronology. _ to me. much later on in the chronology, and _ to me. much later on in the chronology, and this - to me. much later on in the chronology, and this is - to me. much later on in the - chronology, and this is paragraph 160 of— chronology, and this is paragraph 160 of your witness statement, you say that _ 160 of your witness statement, you say that after the publication of the second site interim report of july 20131 — the second site interim report of july 2013, the then ministerjo swinson— july 2013, the then ministerjo swinson in the event decided to make a statement in which she again emphasised the arm's—length nature of the _ emphasised the arm's—length nature of the relationship between the post office and _ of the relationship between the post office and its owner, the government. i think you say that in your view— government. i think you say that in your view that was essentially the same _ your view that was essentially the same position being taken, as we see in this— same position being taken, as we see in this letter— same position being taken, as we see in this letter here in 2009. yes.

same position being taken, as we see in this letter here in 2009.— in this letter here in 2009. yes. i don't know— in this letter here in 2009. yes. i don't know when _ in this letter here in 2009. yes. i don't know when this _ in this letter here in 2009. yes. i i don't know when this arm's-length don't know when this arm's—length arrangement started but it was one that moved from the labour government to the coalition government, and carried on into the subsequent conservative government, yes. subsequent conservative government, es. :. subsequent conservative government, es. :, :, subsequent conservative government, es. ., :, ii" subsequent conservative government, es. :. :, 11" ., subsequent conservative government, es. :, :, 11" ., ., , yes. can return to 2011 and early 2012, yes. can return to 2011 and early 2012. please _ yes. can return to 2011 and early 2012, please quiz? _ yes. can return to 2011 and early 2012, please quiz? i— yes. can return to 2011 and early 2012, please quiz? iwill- yes. can return to 2011 and early 2012, please quiz? i will skip- yes. can return to 2011 and early. 2012, please quiz? i will skip over some _ 2012, please quiz? i will skip over some other— 2012, please quiz? i will skip over some other events and in particular you meetings withjo hamilton some other events and in particular you meetings with jo hamilton and with david — you meetings with jo hamilton and with david bristow, a meeting and correspondence with ed davey in 2011, _ correspondence with ed davey in 20111 the — correspondence with ed davey in 2011, the bbc inside out piece presented by nicholas, and your conversation with alice perkins at a conference — conversation with alice perkins at a conference at edgeley park, and instead — conference at edgeley park, and instead may pick up the narrative, please _ instead may pick up the narrative, please with — instead may pick up the narrative, please with letters that you wrote to moya _ please with letters that you wrote to moya greene, the then chief executive — to moya greene, the then chief executive of royal mail group, and

again— executive of royal mail group, and again to _ executive of royal mail group, and again to ed davey, the then parliamentary under secretary of state _ parliamentary under secretary of state for. — parliamentary under secretary of state for, innovation and skills? can we — state for, innovation and skills? can we start with the letter to moya greene _ can we start with the letter to moya greene and the reply that she got from _ greene and the reply that she got from paula vennells, then managing director— from paula vennells, then managing director of— from paula vennells, then managing director of post office limited? let's _ director of post office limited? let's start — director of post office limited? let's start with your letter. if we can blow that up a little bit, please~ _ if we can blow that up a little bit, please. this is you writing on the 15th of— please. this is you writing on the 15th of december, 2011. to moya greene _ 15th of december, 2011. to moya greene the chief executive of royal mail group plc. you say, i have been contacted _ mail group plc. you say, i have been contacted by— mail group plc. you say, i have been contacted by a number of constituencies living in odiham and hampshire who are most upset by the fact their— hampshire who are most upset by the fact their local post office has been — fact their local post office has been closed and that a long—standing

employee _ been closed and that a long—standing employee paul kemp has been dismissed due to irregularities, and 'ust dismissed due to irregularities, and just stopping there, you are referring _ just stopping there, you are referring there i think to a second sub—postmaster who had replaced mr bristow. _ sub—postmaster who had replaced mr bristow, who had himself in turn been _ bristow, who had himself in turn been dismissed from the odiham branch? — been dismissed from the odiham branch? : . , ~ been dismissed from the odiham branch? : , , ~ , :, branch? precisely. mr kemp did not himself approach _ branch? precisely. mr kemp did not himself approach me _ branch? precisely. mr kemp did not himself approach me but _ branch? precisely. mr kemp did not himself approach me but my - himself approach me but my constituency in odiham dead because they were worried about losing the post office in odiham. i they were worried about losing the post office in odiham.— post office in odiham. i think you thousand your— post office in odiham. i think you thousand your statement - post office in odiham. i think you thousand your statement that - post office in odiham. i think you | thousand your statement that this .ave thousand your statement that this gave rise — thousand your statement that this gave rise to a number of concerns that in— gave rise to a number of concerns that in particular you considered it could _ that in particular you considered it could not— that in particular you considered it could not simply be a coincidence that two— could not simply be a coincidence that two sub—postmasters in quick succession — that two sub—postmasters in quick succession at the same branch would be dismissed by the post office over alleged shortfalls. as be dismissed by the post office over alleged shortfalls.— alleged shortfalls. as well as the sub-postmistress _ alleged shortfalls. as well as the sub-postmistress in _ alleged shortfalls. as well as the sub-postmistress in the - alleged shortfalls. as well as the l sub-postmistress in the next-door sub—postmistress in the next—door village of south warmer. actually

there was something at the back of my mind which continued to trouble me, which was the number of these people who were being told, you are the only person this is happening to. that struck me as being profoundly wrong because firstly it was obviously this provable. they were not the only people, it was happening to. second, it was isolating those sub—postmasters and sub—postmistresss so they could not get support from others in the same position, and third, it had an element of intimidation about it. all of which set the post office and its way of operating with its sub—postmasters in a bad light. that was at the back of my mind even though i didn't put that in this letter. j though i didn't put that in this letter. :. though i didn't put that in this letter. :, , , ., though i didn't put that in this letter. :, ,, :,

letter. i have skipped over your meetinas letter. i have skipped over your meetings with _ letter. i have skipped over your meetings with mr _ letter. i have skipped over your meetings with mr bristow - letter. i have skipped over your meetings with mr bristow and i letter. i have skipped over your| meetings with mr bristow and jo hamilton. you tell it in your witness _ hamilton. you tell it in your witness statement that at a personal level in _ witness statement that at a personal level in the _ witness statement that at a personal level in the light of seeing them face—to—face, which is what you have done, _ face—to—face, which is what you have done, he _ face—to—face, which is what you have done, he formed a view of them that they were _ done, he formed a view of them that they were transparently honest people — they were transparently honest people with integrity.— people with integrity. yes, absolutely. _ people with integrity. yes, absolutely. and _ people with integrity. yes, absolutely. and that - people with integrity. yes, absolutely. and that in - people with integrity. yes, i absolutely. and that in your judgment — absolutely. and that in your judgment it _ absolutely. and that in your judgment it was _ absolutely. and that in your judgment it was vanishingly j absolutely. and that in your - judgment it was vanishingly unlikely that they— judgment it was vanishingly unlikely that they were the type of people who would have done what was alleged against _ who would have done what was alleged against them. who would have done what was alleged against them-— against them. yes. completely. car in: against them. yes. completely. carrying on. _ against them. yes. completely. carrying on. you _ against them. yes. completely. carrying on, you say, _ against them. yes. completely. carrying on, you say, i- against them. yes. completely. carrying on, you say, i am - against them. yes. completely. carrying on, you say, i am most concerned — carrying on, you say, i am most concerned on a number of fronts. first. _ concerned on a number of fronts. first. my— concerned on a number of fronts. first, my constituents tell me that this case _ first, my constituents tell me that this case appears to be a continuation of the problem that post office employees have been having _ post office employees have been having with the software system that reconciled _ having with the software system that reconciled takings. i am aware of 34 individual— reconciled takings. i am aware of 34 individual employees throughout the country— individual employees throughout the country who feel they have been wrongly— country who feel they have been wrongly accused of fraud due to faults— wrongly accused of fraud due to faults with this particular system

and a _ faults with this particular system and a meeting with them in the new year to _ and a meeting with them in the new year to discuss what action they plan _ year to discuss what action they plan on — year to discuss what action they plan on taking. numerical that this case was _ plan on taking. numerical that this case was brought to my attention in 2008. _ case was brought to my attention in 2008. i_ case was brought to my attention in 2008, i think that should be 2009 actually, _ 2008, i think that should be 2009 actually, when the sub—postmistress from south _ actually, when the sub—postmistress from south warmerjo hamilton in hampshire — from south warmerjo hamilton in hampshire faced the same situation. it hampshire faced the same situation. it has _ hampshire faced the same situation. it has not _ hampshire faced the same situation. it has not been rectified, the situation _ it has not been rectified, the situation which does not bring credit— situation which does not bring credit to — situation which does not bring credit to the royal mail. i am also writing _ credit to the royal mail. i am also writing to — credit to the royal mail. i am also writing to the minister to make him aware _ writing to the minister to make him aware of— writing to the minister to make him aware of this and we will look at that in— aware of this and we will look at that in a — aware of this and we will look at that in a moment and then you deal with a _ that in a moment and then you deal with a separate point about the closure — with a separate point about the closure of — with a separate point about the closure of the branch in odiham. overall— closure of the branch in odiham. overall in— closure of the branch in odiham. overall in this letter you were raising — overall in this letter you were raising the horizon issue notjust in the _ raising the horizon issue notjust in the context of the odiham post office _ in the context of the odiham post office but— in the context of the odiham post office but has a much broader point, would _ office but has a much broader point, would not _ office but has a much broader point, would not be fair?— office but has a much broader point, would not be fair? yes. can we look at the reply. — would not be fair? 193 can we look at the reply, please?

thank you. thank you for your letter of the _ thank you. thank you for your letter of the 15th— thank you. thank you for your letter of the 15th of december addressed to moya greene. that is the one we have 'ust moya greene. that is the one we have just looked _ moya greene. that is the one we have just looked at. as managing director of post _ just looked at. as managing director of post office limited, moya has asked _ of post office limited, moya has asked me — of post office limited, moya has asked me to write you direct and if we look— asked me to write you direct and if we look at — asked me to write you direct and if we look at the foot of the page... sorry. _ we look at the foot of the page... sorry. over— we look at the foot of the page... sorry, overthe we look at the foot of the page... sorry, over the page. we look at the foot of the page... sorry, overthe page. we we look at the foot of the page... sorry, over the page. we can see that it — sorry, over the page. we can see that it is _ sorry, over the page. we can see that it is a _ sorry, over the page. we can see that it is a letter from paula vennells _ that it is a letter from paula vennells-— that it is a letter from paula vennells.- then - that it is a letter from paula vennells.- then back i that it is a letter from paula j vennells.- then back to that it is a letter from paula vennells. yes. then back to page one. the vennells. yes. then back to page one- the 9th _ vennells. yes. then back to page one. the 9th of— vennells. 193 then back to page one. the 9th ofjanuary, paula vennells — one. the 9th ofjanuary, paula vennells is writing back to you. the first page _ vennells is writing back to you. the first page of this letter is about the last— first page of this letter is about the last paragraph of your letter about— the last paragraph of your letter about the opening and closing of the

branch— about the opening and closing of the branch in— about the opening and closing of the branch in odiham. i will skip over all of— branch in odiham. i will skip over all of that— branch in odiham. i will skip over all of that because it is about whether— all of that because it is about whether and in what circumstances there _ whether and in what circumstances there should or should not be a post office _ there should or should not be a post office at _ there should or should not be a post office at odiham. over the page, there should or should not be a post office at odiham. overthe page, ms vinals _ office at odiham. overthe page, ms vinals addresses the wider issue that you — vinals addresses the wider issue that you raised. turning to your more _ that you raised. turning to your more general comments about the horizon _ more general comments about the horizon system, we handle large sums of public— horizon system, we handle large sums of public money as well as the money entrusted _ of public money as well as the money entrusted to us by the 20 million people _ entrusted to us by the 20 million people you visit, our 11,500 branches— people you visit, our 11,500 branches each week. they are a small number— branches each week. they are a small number of— branches each week. they are a small number of previous and existing sub—postmasters including mrs hamilton who used to run the south warnborough. as who allege that financial— warnborough. as who allege that financial discrepancies at their branch— financial discrepancies at their branch are due to a full twitter the installation of a new computer system. ai due erefore you are not the installation of a new computer system. ai due to efore you are not the installation of a new computer system. ai due to a >re you are not the installation of a new computer system. ai due to a full you are not the installation of a new computer system. ai due to a full twitter not system — branch are due to a full twitter branch are due to a full twitter system — branch are due to a full twitter system. we are also aware of the system. we are also aware of the activities — system. we are also aware of the activities of — system. we are also aware of the activities — system. we are also aware of the activities of — system. we are also aware of the activities of a group called justice activities of a group called justice first sub—postmasters alliance. first sub—postmasters alliance. first sub— postmasters alliance. there — first sub—postmasters alliance. there has— first sub—postmasters alliance. first sub— postmasters alliance. there — first sub—postmasters alliance. there has— first sub—postmasters alliance. there has been no evidence to there has been no evidence to support— there has been no evidence to support any of the allegations and support— there has been no evidence to support any of the allegations and we have _ we have _ support any of the allegations and we have no reason to doubt the support any of the allegations and we have no reason to doubt the integrity — we have no reason to doubt the integrity of the system which we integrity — we have no reason to doubt the integrity of the system which we remain— integrity of the system which we remain confident is robust and fit remain— integrity of the system which we remain confident is robust and fit

for purpose. she hopes that has for purpose. she hopes that has clarified — for purpose. she hopes that has clarified the position. you describe clarified — for purpose. she hopes that has clarified the position. you describe this in— this in— clarified the position. you describe this in your— clarified the position. you describe clarified the position. you describe this in your— clarified the position. you describe this in your witness statement is this in your witness statement is being _ being _ this in your witness statement is being given the brush off. yes. you this in your witness statement is being given the brush off. yes. you sa in being given the brush off. yes. you say in your— sa in being given the brush off. yes. you say in your— being given the brush off. 193 you say in your witness statement that being given the brush off. 193 you say in your witness statement that the sub—postmasters that you had met the sub—postmasters that you had met seemed _ the sub—postmasters that you had met seemed _ the sub—postmasters that you had met seemed to _ the sub—postmasters that you had met seemed to you to be transparently seemed to _ the sub—postmasters that you had met seemed to you to be transparently honest _ seemed to you to be transparently honest _ seemed to you to be transparently honest. . honest. . there was no suggestion the there was no suggestion the introduction of a new computerised introduction of a new computerised accounting system had thereby accounting system had thereby uncovered a previously hidden fraudsters. uncovered a previously hidden fraudsters-— uncovered a previously hidden fraudsters. ho. and ifanyone uncovered a previously hidden fraudsters. ho. and if anyone had fraudsters. no. and if anyone had made fraudsters. 119. and if anyone had made such a suggestion you would have given — made such a suggestion you would have given short shrift because of the self— have given short shrift because of the self honesty of the sub—postmaster is you had met because — sub—postmaster is you had met because of the sudden rash of similar— because of the sudden rash of similar allegations shortly after the installation of a new computer

system _ the installation of a new computer system. and therefore you are not