welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. lebanon has long been a dysfunctional state, tragically for the lebanese people it suits many powerful players, both inside and outside the country to keep it that way. having just about staved off total economic collapse at the start of this decade, lebanon is currently the arena for an increasingly dangerous showdown between israel and the iranians backed militia hezbollah. my guess is lebanon's economy minister amin salam. does his government have the means and the will to avert a national

calamity? amin salam, in beirut. welcome to hardtalk. thank you, thank you, stephen. always a pleasure.— always a pleasure. well, it's ureat to always a pleasure. well, it's great to have _ always a pleasure. well, it's great to have you _ always a pleasure. well, it's great to have you back - always a pleasure. well, it's great to have you back on i always a pleasure. well, it'sl great to have you back on the show and if i may, i want to start with some words you said just one week after october 7— thatis, just one week after october 7— that is, after the hamas attack on southern israel — and at the very beginning of israel's massive military response, you said at that point" we do not want to be here in lebanon a bargaining chip in a larger geopolitical game." isn't that precisely what your country has become? ,, , , ., �* precisely what your country has become? ,, , �* ~ ., become? stephen, you've known me for always — become? stephen, you've known me for always my _ become? stephen, you've known

me for always my honesty - become? stephen, you've known me for always my honesty and i me for always my honesty and transparency and we reached a point in lebanon where everything is very clear and there's nothing to hide. and saying the truth and sharing the truth, admitting what is at fault, is the best strategy to follow. so, yes, i was very clear in what i said at that point of time, particularly because lebanon is a small state in this region, has been paying a very, very high price for conflicts around lebanon and in the region for at least the past 75 years. and we have unfortunately been always a country where all the struggles have been moved to be solved amongst nations. we turned into amongst nations. we turned into a weak card that is today being played among the big nations as a bargaining card. we do not wish, and we do not deserve to

be in this position, not as people, not as a nation, not as a sovereignty. lebanon is a country that has struggled and paid a very high price. it is time for lebanon and the international community to consider that this state, this nation, that has embraced over 80 religions and sects, has proven to be one of the best and most diverse countries in many sectors with major successes outside lebanon from its people that deserve the time of peace, it deserves a time of peace, it deserves a time of peace, it deserves a time of stability and we do not deserve to be a bargaining card and do not want to be a bargaining card but until today, it seems we are a bargaining card.- today, it seems we are a bargaining card. so, whatever ou bargaining card. so, whatever you deserve. _ bargaining card. so, whatever you deserve, the _ bargaining card. so, whatever you deserve, the reality - bargaining card. so, whatever you deserve, the reality that i you deserve, the reality that we see day by day and week by week is an intensification of the violence across that borderline between your country and israel. the death toll

among lebanese civilians, leaving aside hezbollah fighters and the death toll on the israeli side of israeli soldiers and civilians, but the lebanese civilian death toll is now at least 68 and around 100,000 of your civilians who live in the south of your country have been displaced, forced to move. are you ready to acknowledge that the situation is only going to get worse as things stand today? well, stephen, as a government, we have been doing our utmost in the diplomatic side with international players to avoid escalation, to avoid getting this spillover of the war in gaza to really turn into a major war in lebanon but based on what you have shared today, that's information that we know, i can tell you we are officially in a state of war.

if anybody is talking about escalation, they are hallucinating because the escalation has happened. you said there's over 100,000 displaced people. we are talking, you know, official numbers that are about 68. i think we are over that number with official and unofficial numbers of deaths of civilians and others in soldiers, etc. so we are officially in the state of war. ., ., i. we are officially in the state of war. ., ., ,, _ ., of war. hang on, you say we are officially in — of war. hang on, you say we are officially in a _ of war. hang on, you say we are officially in a state _ of war. hang on, you say we are officially in a state of _ of war. hang on, you say we are officially in a state of war- officially in a state of war but this is not your war. this is hezbollah�*s war with israel. the lebanese national defence forces are barely even a presence in the south of your country. all this shows is the absolute weakness of the lebanese state.— absolute weakness of the lebanese state. ~ ,, , lebanese state. well, stephen, let me tell _ lebanese state. well, stephen, let me tell you, _ lebanese state. well, stephen, let me tell you, as _ lebanese state. well, stephen, let me tell you, as i _ lebanese state. well, stephen, let me tell you, as i started - let me tell you, as i started in the beginning, yes, there is

major desperation. there is major desperation. there is major weakness. major desperation. there is majorweakness. even major desperation. there is major weakness. even now when you hear about the international community behind the scenes, doing discussions, there has been a lot of talk at discussions are not directly with the lebanese government as a member of this government, i'm not happy to know that this is the case. i'm not happy to be part of the government that is considered not be major or not the first entity to discuss, you know, the situation with but we know — we know — this situation is not new to lebanon. we know that many of the things, including the maritime border discussions, have had a similar path one way or another and this is not really the best scenario to say that this government... scenario to say that this covernment. .. ,, ,, ~ �* , government... crosstalk. it's certainly not — government... crosstalk. it's certainly not the _ government... crosstalk. it's certainly not the best _ government... crosstalk. it's certainly not the best scenario l certainly not the best scenario for you, certainly not the best scenario foryou, minister, because you

are minister of economy and trade and this intensification of the war is deeply damaging to the interests, the economic interests, of the lebanese state in terms of agriculture, in terms of tourism, in terms of displaced people and all of the costs that come with that. you know that much better than i do so are you now ready, as a senior member of the lebanese government, to say that it is time for hezbollah to rethink? to at least withdraw their forces from the southern border area to an area north of the lower tahnee river or even still better to actually disarm their forces so that israel no longer sees a military threat along its northern border? we certainly. _ along its northern border? - certainly, stephen, from an economic impact from the minister of trade, i can tell you the country and the country's national economy at some point in 2023, before the war started, we began with the

same some development, seeing some improvement, despite the fact that we still have long ways to go for true reforms and for talking, ways to go for true reforms and fortalking, really, ways to go for true reforms and for talking, really, about the recovery in the economy but there is no doubt, as you just stated, that this war has weighed very heavily on the economy. losses on the major sectors including agriculture, including tourism recruited two major sectors that were still pumping some oxygen into the economy for the past few years — now are assessed in losses in the billions of dollars. the minister of agriculture alone announced that the losses in the agriculture sector are between 2— $3 billion. we did an assessment, a brief assessment on the impact of the tourism sector and we are talking as well between 3—5 billion dollars expected losses

and already calculated losses in this year so... crosstalk. to answer _ in this year so... crosstalk. to answer my _ in this year so... crosstalk. to answer my question, - in this year so... crosstalk. to answer my question, is - in this year so... crosstalk. to answer my question, is a l to answer my question, is a time for people like you to say to his balart stop it. in the interests of the people of hezbollah, either disarm or move all of your thousands of resistance fighters and the rockets to a position north of the lower tahnee river, away from direct threat to israel —— litani. i from direct threat to israel -- litani. u, from direct threat to israel -- litani. u, , ., ., from direct threat to israel -- litani. ., ., litani. i can tell you from a very diplomatic _ litani. i can tell you from a very diplomatic point - litani. i can tell you from a very diplomatic point of. litani. i can tell you from a i very diplomatic point of view we have been asking if i want to call them stakeholders in this war to really, really leave lebanon alone because i mean many, many different players, as you just stated. in the beginning, this war is being, you know,... crosstalk. minister, don't _ being, you know,... crosstalk. minister, don't use _ being, you know,... crosstalk. minister, don't use words - being, you know,... crosstalk. minister, don't use words like . minister, don't use words like stakeholders because it's kind

of — it's avoiding the real issues here. i need you to address hezbollah. i was interested the other day one of hezbollah�*s christian allies, the leader of the free patriotic movement, is your brain but said hezbollah is behaving in a delusional way right now, he said they are crossing the limits of defending lebanon, crossing the border and getting involved in a conflict in which we cannot make our own decisions here in lebanon and he was actually maybe being braver than you and he is a former ally of hezbollah —— gebran bassil. why can't you say to me hezbollah has got to change its strategy? no, i can tell you hezbollah and others, and israelis and the intervention of all others, they should all consider we cannot carry the sword, we cannot carry the sword, we cannot go further with the escalation. anybody involved, hezbollah or the israelis or

the iranians or all of the forces that are being involved, should consider that lebanon cannot carry this heavy price. crosstalk. there are states over which you obviously have no control but hezbollah is a militia, a resistance, whatever you want to call it, inside lebanon and you speak as a senior minister in the government of lebanon. yes. you have a capacity. — government of lebanon. yes. you have a capacity, at _ government of lebanon. 13:3 you have a capacity, at least in theory, to influence... absolutely.— theory, to influence... absolutely. theory, to influence... absolutel . , ., ., ., theory, to influence... absolutel. ., ., absolutely. hezbollah in a way ou absolutely. hezbollah in a way you cannot _ absolutely. hezbollah in a way you cannot possibly _ absolutely. hezbollah in a way you cannot possibly influence l you cannot possibly influence israel and iran.— israel and iran. no, absolutely. - israel and iran. no, absolutely. i - israel and iran. no, absolutely. i mean, israel and iran. no, - absolutely. i mean, and it, stephen. i was one of the first ministers early on when i was asked, i was very clear that we should, and whoever is involved, hezbollah and others, because we know as well there were other militias in lebanon that started trying to use lebanon as a land as well to

get involved in the war. so, we were very clear, i was very clear from the beginning that we cannot carry this wait, we cannot economically, politically, socially, we cannot get engaged, cannot hold or carry that burden of this war because lebanon is at the edge of total collapse. fine edge of total collapse. one final point _ edge of total collapse. one final point on _ edge of total collapse. one final point on that - edge of total collapse. one final point on that does - edge of total collapse. one final point on that does make you say lebanon is on the edge of total collapse and we've seen intensification does not in the south of lebanon but we've seen an israeli drone strike in beirut, the heart of your capital city, and in recent weeks we've seen israeli air raids in the backaert valley, from the south in the east of your country. how likely do you believe it is that going to end up with all—out war between israel and hezbollah and what would that do to lebanon —— beqaa. to hezbollah and what would that do to lebanon -- beqaa. to be cuite do to lebanon -- beqaa. to be quite honest. _ do to lebanon -- beqaa. to be quite honest, in _ do to lebanon -- beqaa. to be quite honest, in the _ do to lebanon -- beqaa. to be quite honest, in the first - do to lebanon -- beqaa. to be quite honest, in the first few. quite honest, in the first few months we were thinking that

the intervention of larger nations, including the efforts that the us and france and some european countries were putting would really put an end to this or at least shield lebanon but today, i can tell you based on the escalation that has happened so far and the politics that we keep hearing about regarding the issues that are going on in israel that there is an interest to keep this war going. because the israeli prime minister has an interest to keep this war going because of his issues internally. that really is a big concern because they keep pushing the card and we've been seeing more escalation as well on lebanon in the past few weeks so i would say that things changed from a few months until today. i think we are at a serious risk of having this get out of control, from

all parties engaged. and all the nations that were trying to help lebanon has taken a little bit of a backseat in the past few weeks. the diplomatic movement that we have seen a few months ago is not as obvious today. it has been at least one month since we left lebanon to go to attend the world bank meetings. since then, we have not seen serious engagement to avoid, you know, a more regional war, as they call it. a more regionalwar, as they call it. ., , ., , a more regionalwar, as they callit. ., ,., , , call it. that is a very bleak assessment _ call it. that is a very bleak assessment and _ call it. that is a very bleak assessment and in - call it. that is a very bleak assessment and in the - call it. that is a very bleak - assessment and in the middle of all of the concern, you clearly have about the direction in which the war is going, you still have to try to turn around the lebanese economy. i just wonder, you were appointed at a time when the country was in complete economic meltdown. there was basically a de facto default in the banking sector. today, the currency is, frankly, still dominated by the

us dollar. the local lebanese town has a black market rate which is nothing like the official rate and you said you would fix that but you haven't fixed it yet. to what extent do you feel your country is teetering on the brink of economic meltdown report lebanese pound. i economic meltdown report lebanese pound.— economic meltdown report lebanese pound. i can tell you based on _ lebanese pound. i can tell you based on the _ lebanese pound. i can tell you based on the work _ lebanese pound. i can tell you based on the work that - lebanese pound. i can tell you based on the work that has - lebanese pound. i can tell you l based on the work that has been done, despite the fact that the challenges were beyond, you know, the control of a new government that really started its work when everything was already — all the damage was done. on the front of the lebanese lead, i can tell you that since we took a and since we worked on some economic reforms, at least from the efforts that have been done by the minister of economy, they consider that us polarising the economy was a bad decision, only since that day, we managed to stabilise the dollar —— dollarising. it's been over

eight months now since i took the decision to allow the dollar to be used and in the market and be used as the main currency for trade, etc etc. the dollar rate has been about 89,000. this has been a major step and then, by harvard university assured that what we did was the best thing, given the situation we on top of that, we tried to, you know, minimise the damage that was done with the loss of value of salaries for the public sector but it's all, i would say, band—aids. untilwe but it's all, i would say, band—aids. until we have all of the reforms. band-aids. untilwe have all of the reforms.— the reforms. well, exactly, lsand-aids _ the reforms. well, exactly, band-aids until— the reforms. well, exactly, band-aids until you - the reforms. well, exactly, band-aids until you get - the reforms. well, exactly, | band-aids until you get real band—aids until you get real reform. the world bank a year ago called for swift, decisive action, particularly on reform is the only way to restore long—term financial stability. i noticed in the budget that you managed to get through the

national assembly, you have raised some taxes, you have raised some taxes, you have raised some taxes, you have raised some tariffs but analysts looking at your economy still don't believe the sums add up. i mean, how are you going to convince the lebanese people to pay more tax and to actually get your government itself to be serious about rooting out corruption? well, the thing, stephen, is as we mentioned earlier, the problem that there is, amongst the political parties in lebanon, a kind of a schoolmate situation now. —— stalemate. none of the political parties seem to want to get to a resolve in lebanon. they are all waiting for the big deal to come through which would include 360 comprehensive political economic and social regional deals, anybody you talk to now on the street or in the government, they tell you

we're waiting for the big and the regional deal to come, to be able to first elect the president, get a new government because you know everything in lebanon now is a caretaker situation. our government is a caretaker government. we lack the process of the head of the constitution which is a president. every other director or general director in the government isjust or general director in the government is just replacing another one unofficially. so, we are in a state of caretaker government by all means and the political parties, particularly the parliament, is paralysed. all of the political parties are waiting to see what is the big package that is going to come from the international community? the deal between iran and the us? the french? everybody involved, the arab countries? what is the deal thatis countries? what is the deal that is going to bring a president, solve the 1701... right, you said at the beginning of this, stephen, i

am going to be straight with you. i will say how it is, i am an honest politician. but you just outlined your country cannot even elect a president for 1.5 years. cannot even elect a president for 1-5 years— cannot even elect a president for 1.5 years.- you - cannot even elect a president for 1.5 years. yes! you have for1.5 years. yes! you have been without _ for1.5 years. yes! you have been without a _ for1.5 years. yes! you have been without a president. i for 1.5 years. 123i you have been without a president. you tell me somebody a bit detached from the sort of confessional, communal politics that has dogged lebanon for so long, how are you going to fix this? well, the only way out, stephen, and i had this discussion when we were in washington last week with the imf, when they were asking us whether you guys going to do all of the prior actions to get the final bill for the imf? yes! i the final bill for the imf? yes! .. . the final bill for the imf? yes! , the final bill for the imf? yes! ., , , . ., the final bill for the imf? yes! ,~ ., yes! i was very clear as a member— yes! i was very clear as a member of— yes! i was very clear as a member of the _ yes! i was very clear as a | member of the delegation yes! i was very clear as a - member of the delegation and minister of economy, i told the world bank and the imf that you guys know that this government, after two years, got to a point where due to the political tensions among all of the political parties, everybody is waiting for the big deal to get

their best bite at the — or get their best bite at the — or get the best share of the deal. everybody is refusing to make a serious decision to have a president, is refusing to make a serious decision to fix the economy, and that's shameful. i was not very happy and proud to be sitting in front of the imf, telling them that realistically, only a new government will get an imf deal going. this is the truth, stephen. going. this is the truth, stephen-— going. this is the truth, stehen. ., ., , , stephen. hang on, you 'ust use the powerful* stephen. hang on, you 'ust use the powerful world. h stephen. hang on, youjust use the powerfulworld. right - stephen. hang on, youjust use the powerfulworld. right now. the powerful world. right now you are feeling ashamed of your own government?— own government? yes, i am ashamed. — own government? yes, i am ashamed. i _ own government? yes, i am ashamed, i am _ own government? yes, i am ashamed, i am ashamed, i own government? yes, i am. ashamed, i am ashamed, and own government? yes, i am i ashamed, i am ashamed, and i'm ashamed, iam ashamed, and i'm not talking particularly about the council of ministers, i'm talking about the entire lebanese government, including our parliament.— lebanese government, including our parliament. right. because the final decision _ our parliament. right. because the final decision of _ our parliament. right. because the final decision of the - our parliament. right. because the final decision of the law- the final decision of the law is not with the cabinet. it's with the parliament. crosstalk. i with the parliament. crosstalk. i understand. _ with the parliament. crosstalk. i understand, you've _ with the parliament. crosstalk. i understand, you've made i with the parliament. crosstalk. i understand, you've made that i i understand, you've made that point. here is a general thought for you. i said at the very beginning there were too many people inside lebanon who

profit from the chaos in your country. would it not help if, at some point, actually, as a country, began to accept that accountability is important— accountability is importa nt— and accountability is important— and i'm thinking of yourformer long serving governor of the central bank we had soulmate, who faces a host of serious accusations, particularly in europe, of embezzlement to the tune of him and his family to the tune of $300 million and he was allowed to leave office, as i understand it, is no longer living in lebanon. he is not right now subject to charge inside lebanon —— riad salameh. and i should make it clear that he denies the allegations. it isn't about time that people like him are brought before a court of law and their guilt or innocenceis court of law and their guilt or innocence is properly tested? he is held to account? i innocence is properly tested? he is held to account?- he is held to account? i want to thank you _ he is held to account? i want to thank you for _ he is held to account? i want to thank you for bringing i he is held to account? i want to thank you for bringing this j to thank you for bringing this on because you have it on record in our last interview, and you were surprised when i

answered a similar question and i told you that he should have been out of his office, out of hisjob back when been out of his office, out of his job back when we did the interview. two years ago. find interview. two years ago. and look what _ interview. two years ago. and look what happened! nothing. yes, and my opinion didn't change, and i blamed our government to keep a person that was indicted or at least had suspicion of illegal activity at the time in office, handling the government's money, handling the people's money, handling the people's money, you know? it was shameful at the time not to take a decision and now, it's even more shameful that over five major countries, including the us, canada, the united kingdom, france, switzerland, i'm not going to go further with the list, have charged and indicted and asked for, you know, to hold this person accountability and our own government didn't do anything. so, listen, final question

because we're almost out of time but you keep coming back to word shameful.— time but you keep coming back to word shameful. yes. when lebanese _ to word shameful. yes. when lebanese people _ to word shameful. as when lebanese people outside of the country hear you talk, isn't the biggest problem of all that the biggest problem of all that the people of your country lose all hope and belief that your country can and will do better? well, people of lebanon, inside and outside, they know what is the way and the path forward to a true country, to a true government, to a true nation. whatever i'm saying will not impact them because they know that saying the truth and facing those issues is the only way out. there are people who always have hope and people will come back to lebanon but they know unless we hold people responsible, unless we acknowledge and say that we know what our problem is, we will never get a better lebanon. we will never build a real country. we need to

acknowledge our problem, we need to say where the government messed up for the past 20 years and start putting people injail and holding people in jail and holding people injail and holding people accountable. people injail and holding --eole accountable. �* ., people accountable. amin salam, i thank people accountable. amin salam, i thank you _ people accountable. amin salam, i thank you very _ people accountable. amin salam, i thank you very much _ people accountable. amin salam, i thank you very much for - i thank you very much for joining me on hardtalk. thank you. joining me on hardtalk. thank ou. .. ~' joining me on hardtalk. thank ou. .. ~ , ., joining me on hardtalk. thank ou. ., ~ ,, , hello. expect a different feel to the weather over the next few days. some warmer weather on the way this week but with that, we will still see some outbreaks of rain at times, so don't be expecting blue skies and sunshine all the way. and certainly low pressure in charge of the scene for monday — this frontal system pushing in from the west. that'll make for a really

soggy start to the day across northern ireland. conversely, central and eastern parts of england and a good part of scotland starting with some sunshine. a touch of frost first thing across parts of scotland. outbreaks of rain spreading from northern ireland, into southern and central scotland, north west england, wales and the southwest as we go through the day. but for central and eastern parts of england, where we hold on to some brightness, temperatures could climb to 18 degrees. more generally, 11 to 1a. now, through monday night, this first band of cloud and patchy rain pushes a little bit further eastwards and northwards. we'll see further heavy rain returning to western parts by the end of the night. some clear spells, too, but temperatures between seven and 11 degrees — much milder than recent nights. we should be frost—free as we start tuesday morning but still with low pressure in charge — this frontal system bringing another dose of rain to western parts and this front creeping in from the east — that is going to bring a band of clouds and perhaps some heavy,

thundery showers into parts of eastern england as the day wears on. but in between our rain bands, a slice of sunshine across central parts of england, up into southern and eastern scotland. the warmth a little more widespread on tuesday — highs of16,17,18 degrees. the odd spot may be up to 19. now, by wednesday, levels of humidity will be climbing a little — that'll mean more in the way of low clouds, some mist and murk, particularly for eastern coasts. outbreaks of rain also likely to develop across many parts of central and eastern england. those temperatures — 16,17 or 18 degrees. as we head towards the end of the week, low pressure still fairly close by, so there'll still be some bouts of rain but the winds coming from the east will feed some rather warm air from the near continent in our direction. now, the highest temperatures of all for the end of the week may be across western scotland — could be looking at temperatures up to 20 degrees. as we head into the weekend, looks rather mixed — some dry weather, some rain at times but staying just a little warmer than it has been of late.

live from london, this is bbc news. as hamas sends a delegation

to peace talks in cairo, palestinian health officials say israeli air strikes in rafah have killed 13 people. protestors in georgia demand the government revokes a controversial "foreign agents" bill. and we're on the road in india as the world's biggest election continues. hello. a very warm welcome. i am sally bundock. we start in gaza, where palestinian health officials say israeli air strikes on the crowded town of rafah have killed 13 people. medics said many more were wounded. this comes as israel's military says aid deliveries will be ramped up across new corridors and border crossings. the white house says us president biden stressed the need in his latest phone call with the israeli prime

minister.