politics can be a high—wire act, and scotland's first minister lost his footing today. if msps can't agree a successor to humza yousaf, scotland is heading for scottish parliament elections. and have smartphones and social media really led to a rise in teenage mental illness?

we'll be joined by the snp deputy leader and ask his former coalition partner from the scottish greens, can they make up? and the leader of the scottish tories, and asking have his actions paved the way for labour gains and tory pain? also tonight: the play —based childhood we have had for thousands of years basically ended around 2010. it was replaced by a phone —based childhood. that's the new york times and sunday times best—selling author whose new book argues that time spent on smartphones and social media is behind an epidemic of teenage mental illness. we'll talk live to professor jonathan haidt, who says under—16s shouldn't have access to smartphones or social media. what he says is controversial. plus, esther ghey is on newsnight — the mum of teenager brianna, who was murdered last year. she'll tell us about her safeguarding campaign for mobile phones and social media.

good evening from glasgow. today, humza yousaf admitted he made a big misjudgement and he's paid a heavy price. so who will be the next first minister in this political petri dish? the leadership contest — and it looks as if it will be a contest — could be a bitter battle. john swinney, the former deputy first minister, is sounding coy, but also sounding like a politican ready to make a comeback after 20 years. and the former contender kate forbes may stand. but would she be able to command enough snp msps votes, given her opposition to gay marriage and abortion? all of this matters to a general election too — with labour looking to pick up disaffected snp supporters, particularly in the central belt. nick's at holyrood. nick, where do we go from here? well, kirsty, this is a shell—shocked party. nobody saw this

a week ago, but when this party reviews the events of the last few days, the feeling is, it's very difficult to see how this could have been avoided when humza yousaf chucked the scottish greens out of his government early on thursday morning. the view is, that appeared to break the number one rule of politics, lyndon bainesjohnson, know your numbers. the snp does not have a majority in the scottish parliament, and so you need to tread with care. when a party is in shock, what does it do? it goes for the comfort blanket. that comfort blanket isjohn swinney. 0ne comfort blanket. that comfort blanket isjohn swinney. one of the founding members of the scottish parliament, a former leader of the party, held senior cabinet posts from the moment the snp went into government in 2007 up until last year, when he obviously stepped down as deputy first minister. i'm sure you have had chats withjohn swinney in the last year, and i have too. he has been very happy with his new life, not as a minister, but still as an msp, and focusing very much on his family. but he is hearing those

calls from across the party for him to stand, and he is clearly taking them very, very seriously. but supporters of kate forbes, who, let us not forget, got nearly 48% of the vote in last year's leadership contest, saying, no, hold on a minute, john swinney is the continuity candidate. he was at the heart of the bute house agreement between the scottish greens and the snp which got this party into difficult waters and climate issues and done trans issues, and we need a change. earlier, icaught and done trans issues, and we need a change. earlier, i caught up with one of kate forbes�* big supporters, fergus ewing. i have been inundated with messages of surmort, _ i have been inundated with messages of support, notjust i have been inundated with messages of support, not just over the i have been inundated with messages of support, notjust over the last week, _ of support, notjust over the last week, but— of support, notjust over the last week, but over the last couple of years. _ week, but over the last couple of years. that — week, but over the last couple of years, that people wish kate forbes had won_ years, that people wish kate forbes had won the contest, and they would like her_ had won the contest, and they would like her to— had won the contest, and they would like her to be first minister now, because — like her to be first minister now, because they can see that she's got the qualities, the strength of character, the honesty, sincerity and passion for scotland. her

religious— and passion for scotland. her religious beliefs, i think, are an asset. _ religious beliefs, i think, are an asset. not— religious beliefs, i think, are an asset. not a _ religious beliefs, i think, are an asset, not a disadvantage. she has made _ asset, not a disadvantage. she has made clear— asset, not a disadvantage. she has made clear she will govern regardless of her religious beliefs and put _ regardless of her religious beliefs and put them to one side. sol regardless of her religious beliefs and put them to one side. so i think her time _ and put them to one side. so i think her time has — and put them to one side. so i think her time has come. and put them to one side. so i think hertime has come. and and put them to one side. so i think her time has come. and john swinney has been _ her time has come. and john swinney has been around for a long time, but he really— has been around for a long time, but he really is _ has been around for a long time, but he really is associated with nicola sturgeon — sturgeon. so - sturgeon. so what happens in the sturgeon. — so what happens in the scottish parliament this week? well, kirsty, there are two motions of no confidence in play in the scottish parliament. 0ne of no confidence in play in the scottish parliament. one is a labour one in the scottish government, one is a conservative one in the first minister. they are still technically in play, but the scottish greens are not going to vote for them, so if they go to a vote, they will fail, which means they will probably fizzle out. but what will not fizzle out is a battle for the soul of the snp. independence is the glue that holds that party together. for the moment, independence is not on the table, so all those ideological differences in that very broad church will now come to the fore.

between social conservatives like kate forbes and those who regard themselves as progressives. between climate activists and those who believe, go carefully on that. on top of that, you have the scottish labour party on the rise as the labour party on the rise as the labour party on the rise as the labour party across gb is on the rise. so there is a feeling that that decade of snp dominance may be drawing to a close. thanks very much, nick. let�*s talk now to snp depute leader keith brown and co—leader of the scottish greens patrick harvie, and at westminster, by leader of the scottish conservatives douglas ross. good evening to you all. first of all, the soul of the snp, that is what is at stake, according to nick there, but the public must look at this mess and thing, why should we trust the snp with our votes when they are more interested in instantly signed battles than actually the of scotland? i instantly signed battles than actually the of scotland? i don't think that's _ actually the of scotland? i don't think that's true, _ actually the of scotland? i don't think that's true, and _ actually the of scotland? i don't think that's true, and you - actually the of scotland? i don't think that's true, and you talk. think that�*s true, and you talk about trust, the people of scotland

voted for the snp in successive elections in record numbers. we currently have more than twice the number of snp msps that labour or the tories have. they like us for five years. it is by law the scottish parliament sits for five years, so we intend to see through that mandate that programme, and i think the people of scotland expect that. they don�*t want see the reduced cap double council tax compared to england and wales change, orsee compared to england and wales change, or see prescription charges coming in. they want us to help with the cost of living crisis inflicted by the tories. but in the situation now, if you do not have a leader in 28 days, we are heading for an election. so do you want a new agreement with patrick harvie? because in fact today, humza yousaf said we need to prepare all this. i have said publicly that i think whoever is now leader of the snp should be able to engage with other parties. i want to see that engagement, constructive engagement. we are a parliament of minorities. we are a parliament of minorities. we have to talk to each other. i think there is no prospect of any support from the tories at any stage. they are bent on a kind of

scorched earth idea of policy. but we need to talk to those that are willing to talk to us. that is very important. you very much welcome talk ofjohn swinney coming into the leadership contest. would you back him? what swinney coming into the leadership contest. would you back him? mhdti contest. would you back him? what i said is, i think _ contest. would you back him? what i said is, i think there _ contest. would you back him? what i said is, i think there are three - said is, i think there are three things. he said is, i think there are three thins. , ., , said is, i think there are three thinus. , ., , ., things. he is said to be the comfort blanket. someone _ things. he is said to be the comfort blanket. someone said _ things. he is said to be the comfort blanket. someone said to - things. he is said to be the comfort blanket. someone said to me - things. he is said to be the comfortj blanket. someone said to me today that ou blanket. someone said to me today that you smash _ blanket. someone said to me today that you smash the _ blanket. someone said to me today that you smash the emergency - blanket. someone said to me today i that you smash the emergency window and sent for swinney if you have an emergency. it and sent for swinney if you have an emergency-— and sent for swinney if you have an emeruen . _, , , �* emergency. it is an emergency, isn't it? i have emergency. it is an emergency, isn't it? i have said _ emergency. it is an emergency, isn't it? i have said three _ emergency. it is an emergency, isn't it? i have said three criteria, - it? i have said three criteria, someone — it? i have said three criteria, someone who _ it? i have said three criteria, someone who should - it? i have said three criteria, someone who should be - it? i have said three criteria, - someone who should be experienced, willing to engage, and who should unify the party. i thinkjohn swinney fulfils those categories, but i will wait to see who comes forward. would kate forbes unify the party, given her position on gay marriage and abortion? you have made the point about the number of msps that may or may not support her. just to point out, it is the whole party. msps only have one vote, the same as in one else, let�*s see who comes forward. one vote, the same as in one else, let's see who comes forward. would ou back let's see who comes forward. would you back eight _ let's see who comes forward. would

you back eight forbes? _ let's see who comes forward. would you back eight forbes? -- - let's see who comes forward. would you back eight forbes? -- would . let's see who comes forward. would | you back eight forbes? -- would you you back eight forbes? —— would you back kate forbes? i you back eight forbes? -- would you back kate forbes?— back kate forbes? i will wait and see who the _ back kate forbes? i will wait and see who the candidates - back kate forbes? i will wait and see who the candidates before i l see who the candidates before i decide. �* . ., see who the candidates before i decide. �* _, i. see who the candidates before i decide. �* | decide. but could you back her? i have said. _ decide. but could you back her? i have said. i _ decide. but could you back her? i have said, i will— decide. but could you back her? i have said, i will wait _ decide. but could you back her? i have said, i will wait and - decide. but could you back her? i have said, i will wait and see. - have said, i will wait and see. isn�*t what people in scotland went back to basics, as it were? economy, cost of living. it is not actually about gender politics, identity politics or environmental radicalism.— politics or environmental radicalism. ., ., radicalism. you say that, we brought in the trial payment, _ radicalism. you say that, we brought in the trial payment, which _ radicalism. you say that, we brought in the trial payment, which has - in the trial payment, which has taken 100,000 children out of poverty this year. we have frozen council tax, where if you look at england and wales, they have had massive increases. we have no prescription charges, which have just increased elsewhere. we are better performing economically in terms of exports. we also have... we also have teachers, nurses, police officers paid better in scotland and no work lost through strikes in the nhs. but do you want to apologise to the scottish people for this mess yeah you have seen yourself, the choreography of what has happened. you have two parties previously

involved in an agreement, where that has come to an end. but humza yousaf said he had made _ has come to an end. but humza yousaf said he had made a _ has come to an end. but humza yousaf said he had made a mistake _ has come to an end. but humza yousaf said he had made a mistake today - has come to an end. but humza yousaf said he had made a mistake today and| said he had made a mistake today and regretted it. he is the first minister of scotland. not some kind of kid making a mistake. he is minister of scotland. not some kind of kid making a mistake.— of kid making a mistake. he is the first leader — of kid making a mistake. he is the first leader to _ of kid making a mistake. he is the first leader to hold _ of kid making a mistake. he is the first leader to hold his _ of kid making a mistake. he is the first leader to hold his hands - of kid making a mistake. he is the first leader to hold his hands up i first leader to hold his hands up and say, this is not... but the damage is done. and i think people welcome that honesty. taking accountability and saying, i should honesty. taking accountability and saying, ishould have honesty. taking accountability and saying, i should have done it a different way. i think that is refreshing. different way. i think that is refreshing-— different way. i think that is refreshin-. ., ., ., ., refreshing. what would you have done differentl ? differently? i think we need to have the conversation. it depends. because we are a parliament of minorities, you have to sometimes a great individual pieces of legislation with votes from other parties. we were elected as a parliament of minorities. i was campaign directorfor as a parliament of minorities. i was campaign director for the snp as a parliament of minorities. i was campaign directorfor the snp in 2021. we won 64 of 129 seats, meaning we are a minority and need to work with other parties. thank you very much. turning to you, patrick harvie, you broke down and snp first minister on the back of tory pressure in a fit of pique.

what about the bigger picture of independence? that is not an accurate way to describe _ that is not an accurate way to describe what happened. there was a stable, _ describe what happened. there was a stable, progressive, pro—independence majority government, and i'm sorry to say that humza — government, and i'm sorry to say that humza yousaf decided to pull the plug _ that humza yousaf decided to pull the plug on that. but _ the plug on that. but you were about to have a vote, where you not? you are about to have a vote of your membership. and it is perfectly reasonable for a deal that— and it is perfectly reasonable for a deal that was shaped and signed off by the _ deal that was shaped and signed off by the memberships of both parties to be debated openly and democratically by party members. i don't _ democratically by party members. i don't think— democratically by party members. i don't think anyone should have been afraid _ don't think anyone should have been afraid of— don't think anyone should have been afraid of that democratic process. i'm afraid of that democratic process. i'm very— afraid of that democratic process. i'm very sorry. afraid of that democratic process. l'm very sorry-— i'm very sorry. would you have continued _ i'm very sorry. would you have continued to _ i'm very sorry. would you have continued to continue -- - i'm very sorry. would you have | continued to continue -- would i'm very sorry. would you have - continued to continue -- would have continued to continue —— would have voted to continue the bu test agreement? i voted to continue the bu test agreement?— voted to continue the bu test agreement? voted to continue the bu test aureement? ., , , agreement? i would, because we were achievin: a agreement? i would, because we were achieving a lot. — agreement? i would, because we were achieving a lot, and i _ agreement? i would, because we were achieving a lot, and i thought - agreement? i would, because we were achieving a lot, and i thought a - agreement? i would, because we were achieving a lot, and i thought a lot - achieving a lot, and i thought a lot of members of the parliament... you were unable — of members of the parliament... you were unable to _ of members of the parliament... ym. were unable to convince the rest of your party. were unable to convince the rest of your party-— were unable to convince the rest of our - . ., your party. even those i had spoken to who were — your party. even those i had spoken to who were unhappy _ your party. even those i had spoken to who were unhappy or _ your party. even those i had spoken to who were unhappy or dissatisfied with some _ to who were unhappy or dissatisfied with some aspects wanted to improve the agreement, not ended, sol with some aspects wanted to improve the agreement, not ended, so i think there _ the agreement, not ended, so i think there should have been allowed to play its _ there should have been allowed to play its course. i think every political _ play its course. i think every political party needs to take some responsibility and i think it is

time — responsibility and i think it is time tom _ responsibility and i think it is time to... do responsibility and i think it is time to---— responsibility and i think it is timeto... ., ., ., ., , time to... do you want to apologise to the scottish _ time to... do you want to apologise to the scottish public? _ time to... do you want to apologise to the scottish public? i _ time to. .. do you want to apologise to the scottish public? i think- time to... do you want to apologise to the scottish public? i think we i to the scottish public? i think we need to take _ to the scottish public? i think we need to take responsibility - to the scottish public? i think we need to take responsibility that l need to take responsibility that there _ need to take responsibility that there has been instability and turbulence, which is not in anyone's interest, _ turbulence, which is not in anyone's interest, and— turbulence, which is not in anyone's interest, and the goal now should be to achieve _ interest, and the goal now should be to achieve stability. it has been done _ to achieve stability. it has been done before with a minority government and can be done again. will you _ government and can be done again. will you be — government and can be done again. will you be holding the gun to the snp's will you be holding the gun to the snp�*s head every time there is a vote on an individual issue? if you do not have agreements across the board? that kind of macho language is not kind of— that kind of macho language is not kind of the — that kind of macho language is not kind of the way we would take things. — kind of the way we would take things, holding guns to people's heads _ things, holding guns to people's heads. 0k, putting people's arms up their backs — their backs. 0ne - their backs. one of the things that i think is 0ne of the things that i think is really— one of the things that i think is really different in scotland from uk oolitics _ really different in scotland from uk politics is _ really different in scotland from uk politics is this polarised, winner takes _ politics is this polarised, winner takes all— politics is this polarised, winner takes all mentality that comes from a westminster mindset, aid to dominant— a westminster mindset, aid to dominant party system. we have a pr system _ dominant party system. we have a pr system in _ dominant party system. we have a pr system in scotland, a pluralistic parliament... system in scotland, a pluralistic parliament. . ._ system in scotland, a pluralistic parliament... which was set up by labour. parliament... which was set up by labour- this _ parliament... which was set up by labour. this was _ parliament... which was set up by labour. this was donald _ parliament... which was set up by labour. this was donald dewar. parliament... which was set up by i labour. this was donald dewar as... 25 ears, labour. this was donald dewar as... 25 years. and _ labour. this was donald dewar as... 25 years. and it _ labour. this was donald dewar as...

25 years, and it depends _ labour. this was donald dewar as... 25 years, and it depends on - labour. this was donald dewar as... 25 years, and it depends on a - 25 years, and it depends on a different— 25 years, and it depends on a different way of working. it depends on political parties recognising they don't have a majority. they don't have a ma'ority. there has to be an h they don't have a ma'ority. there has to be an agenda _ they don't have a majority. there has to be an agenda here, - they don't have a majority. there has to be an agenda here, and i they don't have a majority. there l has to be an agenda here, and that would be that there would be a —— they would be certain contenders you would be happier with than others. would you be happy making nice with john swinney? you would you be happy making nice with john swinney?— john swinney? you are not the first and won't be _ john swinney? you are not the first and won't be the _ john swinney? you are not the first and won't be the last _ john swinney? you are not the first and won't be the last journalist - and won't be the lastjournalist asking — and won't be the lastjournalist asking me to name names. i won't do that any— asking me to name names. i won't do that any more — asking me to name names. i won't do that any more than i did last year. can i_ that any more than i did last year. can i answer...— that any more than i did last year. can i answer... would you be happy with a contender— can i answer... would you be happy with a contender that _ can i answer... would you be happy with a contender that was _ can i answer... would you be happy with a contender that was against i with a contender that was against gay marriage and against abortion? we will be clear about our values. we will be clear about our values. we think— we will be clear about our values. we think there needs to be a minority— we think there needs to be a minority government which needs to be stable, _ minority government which needs to be stable, but committed, yes, to accelerating climate action, because scotland _ accelerating climate action, because scotland is _ accelerating climate action, because scotland is years behind where it should _ scotland is years behind where it should be, — scotland is years behind where it should be, yes to progressive income tax, should be, yes to progressive income tax. which _ should be, yes to progressive income tax. which i _ should be, yes to progressive income tax, which i think we have made good progress _ tax, which i think we have made good progress on _ tax, which i think we have made good progress on in the past, but next year's _ progress on in the past, but next year's budget will be tough, because labour— year's budget will be tough, because labour are _ year's budget will be tough, because labour are committed —— they need to be committed to equality. what labour are committed -- they need to be committed to equality.—

be committed to equality. what is the to of be committed to equality. what is the top of your— be committed to equality. what is the top of your agenda _ be committed to equality. what is the top of your agenda for- the top of your agenda for negotiation? brute the top of your agenda for negotiation?— the top of your agenda for neuotiation? ~ . ., , ., ,, negotiation? we had a progressive, pro-independence _ negotiation? we had a progressive, pro-independence majority - pro—independence majority government. there now needs to be, if it will— government. there now needs to be, if it will be _ government. there now needs to be, if it will be a — government. there now needs to be, if it will be a minority government, a progressive, pro—independence minority— a progressive, pro—independence minority government. i minority government. ithink— minority government. i think a lot of green supporters and members would want to know, would you work with a first minister that was against gay marriage and against abortion? yes or no? personally, i would not work with a first minister of any political party— first minister of any political party who was seeking to undermine the human— party who was seeking to undermine the human rights of lgbtq people or downgrade climate action, as some on the right— downgrade climate action, as some on the right of— downgrade climate action, as some on the right of the snp, including fergus — the right of the snp, including fergus ewing, who you heard from earlier _ fergus ewing, who you heard from earlier he — fergus ewing, who you heard from earlier. he has called to downgrade, delay or— earlier. he has called to downgrade, delay or dilute the decarbonisation of buildings programme. that is the one thing _ of buildings programme. that is the one thing the scottish covenant has been getting right in recent years. to delay— been getting right in recent years. to delay or— been getting right in recent years. to delay or downgrade that, or things— to delay or downgrade that, or things like rent control and the environment bill, we want to see progress — environment bill, we want to see progress on all these things. thanks— progress on all these things. thanks very much. douglas rossjoins

us from wech. westminster. what do you think about a first minister for scotland? kate forbes orjohn swinney, what would be your preference. brute swinney, what would be your preference-— swinney, what would be your preference. we are only in the situation because _ preference. we are only in the situation because the - preference. we are only in the situation because the scottish | situation because the scottish conservatives _ situation because the scottish conservatives brought - situation because the scottish| conservatives brought forward situation because the scottish - conservatives brought forward that vote of— conservatives brought forward that vote of no — conservatives brought forward that vote of no confidence _ conservatives brought forward that vote of no confidence in _ conservatives brought forward that vote of no confidence in humza - vote of no confidence in humza yousaf~ — vote of no confidence in humza yousaf~ we _ vote of no confidence in humza yousaf. we could _ vote of no confidence in humza yousaf. we could see - vote of no confidence in humza yousaf. we could see that - vote of no confidence in humza yousaf. we could see that wasl vote of no confidence in humza i yousaf. we could see that was the best course — yousaf. we could see that was the best course of— yousaf. we could see that was the best course of action. _ yousaf. we could see that was the best course of action. he - yousaf. we could see that was the best course of action. he has - yousaf. we could see that was the best course of action. he has onlyl best course of action. he has only resigned — best course of action. he has only resigned today _ best course of action. he has only resigned today because _ best course of action. he has only resigned today because of- best course of action. he has only resigned today because of that. i best course of action. he has only. resigned today because of that. we will look— resigned today because of that. we will look with — resigned today because of that. we will look with interest _ resigned today because of that. we will look with interest to _ resigned today because of that. we will look with interest to see - resigned today because of that. we will look with interest to see who i will look with interest to see who becomes— will look with interest to see who becomes the _ will look with interest to see who becomes the next _ will look with interest to see who becomes the next snp _ will look with interest to see who becomes the next snp leader. i will look with interest to see who. becomes the next snp leader. i'm will look with interest to see who - becomes the next snp leader. i'm not as convinced _ becomes the next snp leader. i'm not as convinced as — becomes the next snp leader. i'm not as convinced as you _ becomes the next snp leader. i'm not as convinced as you that _ becomes the next snp leader. i'm not as convinced as you that there - becomes the next snp leader. i'm not as convinced as you that there will - as convinced as you that there will be a contest _ as convinced as you that there will be a contest. there _ as convinced as you that there will be a contest. there is _ as convinced as you that there will be a contest. there is a _ as convinced as you that there will be a contest. there is a strong - be a contest. there is a strong campaign _ be a contest. there is a strong campaign behind _ be a contest. there is a strong campaign behindjohn- be a contest. there is a strong campaign behind john swinney be a contest. there is a strong. campaign behind john swinney to install— campaign behind john swinney to install him — campaign behind john swinney to install him as _ campaign behind john swinney to install him as leader— campaign behind john swinney to install him as leader and - campaign behind john swinney to install him as leader and their. install him as leader and their nominee _ install him as leader and their nominee for— install him as leader and their nominee for first _ install him as leader and their nominee for first minister. i install him as leader and theirl nominee for first minister. but install him as leader and their- nominee for first minister. but this isjohn_ nominee for first minister. but this is john swinney _ nominee for first minister. but this is john swinney who _ nominee for first minister. but this is john swinney who sat _ nominee for first minister. but this is john swinney who sat in - nominee for first minister. but this is john swinney who sat in alex - is john swinney who sat in alex salmond's _ is john swinney who sat in alex salmond's cabinet _ is john swinney who sat in alex salmond's cabinet and - is john swinney who sat in alex salmond's cabinet and nicola i salmond's cabinet and nicola sturgeon's _ salmond's cabinet and nicola sturgeon's cabinet _ salmond's cabinet and nicola sturgeon's cabinet and - salmond's cabinet and nicola sturgeon's cabinet and was i salmond's cabinet and nicola i sturgeon's cabinet and was one salmond's cabinet and nicola - sturgeon's cabinet and was one of humza _ sturgeon's cabinet and was one of humza yousaf's_ sturgeon's cabinet and was one of humza yousaf's strongest - sturgeon's cabinet and was one of- humza yousaf's strongest supporters. so it with — humza yousaf's strongest supporters. so it with be _ humza yousaf's strongest supporters. so it with be more _ humza yousaf's strongest supporters. so it with be more of— humza yousaf's strongest supporters. so it with be more of the _ humza yousaf's strongest supporters. so it with be more of the same - humza yousaf's strongest supporters. so it with be more of the same a - so it with be more of the same a focus _ so it with be more of the same a focus on — so it with be more of the same a focus on independence _ so it with be more of the same a focus on independence about. focus on independence about separating _ focus on independence about separating scotland - focus on independence about separating scotland from - focus on independence about separating scotland from the j focus on independence about - separating scotland from the rest of the uk, _

separating scotland from the rest of the uk, rather— separating scotland from the rest of the uk, ratherthan_ separating scotland from the rest of the uk, rather than the _ separating scotland from the rest of the uk, rather than the priorities. the uk, ratherthan the priorities that people — the uk, ratherthan the priorities that people of— the uk, ratherthan the priorities that people of scotland - the uk, ratherthan the priorities that people of scotland have, - the uk, rather than the priorities. that people of scotland have, which is growing _ that people of scotland have, which is growing our— that people of scotland have, which is growing our economy— that people of scotland have, which is growing our economy and - that people of scotland have, which. is growing our economy and investing in new— is growing our economy and investing in newj'obs— is growing our economy and investing in newj'obs and— is growing our economy and investing in newjobs and prioritising _ is growing our economy and investing in newjobs and prioritising our- in newjobs and prioritising our public— in newjobs and prioritising our public services. _ in newjobs and prioritising our public services. 50, _ in new jobs and prioritising our public services.— in new jobs and prioritising our public services. so, you know, as ou will public services. so, you know, as you will have _ public services. so, you know, as you will have heard _ public services. so, you know, as you will have heard keith - public services. so, you know, as you will have heard keith brown i public services. so, you know, as i you will have heard keith brown say in terms of voting system, let�*s suggest kate forbes goes forward, but doesn�*t have the full support of snp msps, would tory msps support her? ., ., �* , . her? no, we don't support a nationalist _ her? no, we don't support a nationalist who _ her? no, we don't support a nationalist who wants - her? no, we don't support a nationalist who wants to - her? no, we don't support a - nationalist who wants to separate scotland — nationalist who wants to separate scotland and _ nationalist who wants to separate scotland and remove _ nationalist who wants to separate scotland and remove our- nationalist who wants to separate scotland and remove our countryl nationalist who wants to separate - scotland and remove our country from the united _ scotland and remove our country from the united kingdom _ scotland and remove our country from the united kingdom has— scotland and remove our country from the united kingdom has the _ scotland and remove our country from the united kingdom has the best - the united kingdom has the best interests — the united kingdom has the best interests in — the united kingdom has the best interests in scotland _ the united kingdom has the best interests in scotland at - the united kingdom has the best interests in scotland at heart. i the united kingdom has the bestl interests in scotland at heart. we want _ interests in scotland at heart. we want a _ interests in scotland at heart. we want a government _ interests in scotland at heart. we want a government that - interests in scotland at heart. we want a government that is - interests in scotland at heart. we i want a government that is focussed on the _ want a government that is focussed on the real— want a government that is focussed on the real prior— want a government that is focussed on the real prior if _ want a government that is focussed on the real prior if is. _ want a government that is focussed on the real prior if is.— on the real prior if is. would you abstain? no. _ on the real prior if is. would you abstain? no. i— on the real prior if is. would you abstain? no. iwould— on the real prior if is. would you abstain? no. i would be - on the real prior if is. would you abstain? no. i would be putting| abstain? no. i would be putting m self abstain? no. i would be putting myself forward _ abstain? no. i would be putting myself forward as _ abstain? no. i would be putting myself forward as i _ abstain? no. i would be putting myself forward as i did - abstain? no. i would be putting myself forward as i did in - abstain? no. i would be putting myself forward as i did in 2021. | abstain? no. i would be putting - myself forward as i did in 2021. 0k. myself forward as i did in 2021. ok. so let'sjust — myself forward as i did in 2021. ok. so let'sjust be _ myself forward as i did in 2021.

so let'sjust be clear then, is your so let�*s just be clear then, is your preferred option elections for the scottish parliament right now, an election for the scottish parliament right now? election for the scottish parliament riaht now? , ~ election for the scottish parliament riaht now? , . ., , , right now? yes. we are supporting the vote of — right now? yes. we are supporting the vote of no _ right now? yes. we are supporting the vote of no confidence - right now? yes. we are supporting the vote of no confidence in - right now? yes. we are supporting the vote of no confidence in the . the vote of no confidence in the entire _ the vote of no confidence in the entire government. _ the vote of no confidence in the entire government. we - the vote of no confidence in the entire government. we felt - the vote of no confidence in the entire government. we felt the| entire government. we felt the priority was— entire government. we felt the priority was removing - entire government. we felt the priority was removing humza i entire government. we felt the - priority was removing humza yousaf from office — priority was removing humza yousaf from office we _ priority was removing humza yousaf from office. we have _ priority was removing humza yousaf from office. we have achieved - priority was removing humza yousaf from office. we have achieved that i from office. we have achieved that with the _ from office. we have achieved that with the scottish _ from office. we have achieved that with the scottish vote _ from office. we have achieved that with the scottish vote of— from office. we have achieved that with the scottish vote of no - with the scottish vote of no confidence. _ with the scottish vote of no confidence. but _ with the scottish vote of no confidence. but we - with the scottish vote of no confidence. but we don't i with the scottish vote of no i confidence. but we don't have with the scottish vote of no - confidence. but we don't have a confidence _ confidence. but we don't have a confidence in _ confidence. but we don't have a confidence in this _ confidence. but we don't have a confidence in this entire - confidence in this entire nationalist _ confidence in this entire nationalist governmentl confidence in this entire - nationalist government who have prioritised — nationalist government who have prioritised independence - nationalist government who have prioritised independence above i nationalist government who have i prioritised independence above the real issues— prioritised independence above the real issues that _ prioritised independence above the real issues that matter— prioritised independence above the real issues that matter to - prioritised independence above the real issues that matter to people. i real issues that matter to people. i'm real issues that matter to people. i'm picking — real issues that matter to people. i'm picking this— real issues that matter to people. i'm picking this up— real issues that matter to people. i'm picking this up every- real issues that matter to people. i'm picking this up every day- real issues that matter to people. | i'm picking this up every day when i'm picking this up every day when i'm knocking — i'm picking this up every day when i'm knocking on _ i'm picking this up every day when i'm knocking on doors _ i'm picking this up every day when i'm knocking on doors in - i'm picking this up every day when i'm knocking on doors in my- i'm knocking on doors in my constituency. _ i'm knocking on doors in my constituency. people - i'm knocking on doors in my constituency. people are . i'm knocking on doors in my| constituency. people are fed i'm knocking on doors in my. constituency. people are fed up i'm knocking on doors in my- constituency. people are fed up with the nationalists— constituency. people are fed up with the nationalists focussed _ constituency. people are fed up with the nationalists focussed on - the nationalists focussed on independence _ the nationalists focussed on independence ra _ the nationalists focussed on independence ra ther- the nationalists focussed on independence ra ther than. the nationalists focussed on i independence ra ther than the the nationalists focussed on - independence ra ther than the issues that matter— independence ra ther than the issues that matter to — independence ra ther than the issues that matter to them. _ independence ra ther than the issues that matter to them. you _ independence ra ther than the issues that matter to them.— that matter to them. you support scottish elections _ that matter to them. you support scottish elections and _ that matter to them. you support scottish elections and there - that matter to them. you support| scottish elections and there would then be elections in two years�* time. if the opinion polls are right, you would face a drubbing. that is not what i�*m picking up on that is not what i'm picking up on the doors — that is not what i'm picking up on the doors and _ that is not what i'm picking up on the doors and i'm _ that is not what i'm picking up on the doors and i'm sure _ that is not what i'm picking up on the doors and i'm sure you - that is not what i'm picking up on the doors and i'm sure you have i the doors and i'm sure you have heard _ the doors and i'm sure you have heard me — the doors and i'm sure you have heard me making _ the doors and i'm sure you have heard me making mention -

the doors and i'm sure you have heard me making mention to. heard me making mention to by-election _ heard me making mention to by—election successes- heard me making mention to by—election successes we - heard me making mention to. by—election successes we have heard me making mention to- by—election successes we have had as conservatives — by—election successes we have had as conservatives and _ by—election successes we have had as conservatives and people _ by—election successes we have had as conservatives and people are - by—election successes we have had as conservatives and people are voting l conservatives and people are voting for the _ conservatives and people are voting for the scottish— conservatives and people are voting for the scottish conservatives - conservatives and people are voting for the scottish conservatives and i for the scottish conservatives and they're _ for the scottish conservatives and they're winning _ for the scottish conservatives and they're winning i— for the scottish conservatives and they're winning. i think— for the scottish conservatives and they're winning. i think in - for the scottish conservatives and they're winning. i think in fact- for the scottish conservatives and they're winning. i think in fact in. they're winning. i think in fact in humza _ they're winning. i think in fact in humza yousaf's_ they're winning. i think in fact in humza yousaf's year— they're winning. i think in fact in humza yousaf's year in - they're winning. i think in fact in humza yousaf's year in office i they're winning. i think in fact in. humza yousaf's year in office there were _ humza yousaf's year in office there were 10 _ humza yousaf's year in office there were 10 local— humza yousaf's year in office there were 10 local government - were 10 local government by—elections_ were 10 local government by—elections and - were 10 local government by—elections and the - were 10 local government by—elections and the snp| were 10 local government - by—elections and the snp didn't win one of— by—elections and the snp didn't win one of them — by—elections and the snp didn't win one of them. the _ by—elections and the snp didn't win one of them. the party— by—elections and the snp didn't win one of them. the party that - by—elections and the snp didn't win one of them. the party that fears i by—elections and the snp didn't win| one of them. the party that fears an election— one of them. the party that fears an election is— one of them. the party that fears an election is the — one of them. the party that fears an election is the snp _ one of them. the party that fears an election is the snp and _ one of them. the party that fears an election is the snp and that - one of them. the party that fears an election is the snp and that is - one of them. the party that fears an election is the snp and that is why. election is the snp and that is why keith— election is the snp and that is why keith brown— election is the snp and that is why keith brown said _ election is the snp and that is why keith brown said that _ election is the snp and that is why keith brown said that he _ election is the snp and that is why keith brown said that he is- election is the snp and that is why keith brown said that he is against an early— keith brown said that he is against an early election, _ keith brown said that he is against an early election, because - keith brown said that he is against an early election, because they . keith brown said that he is against. an early election, because they know what will— an early election, because they know what will happen, _ an early election, because they know what will happen, it _ an early election, because they know what will happen, it is _ an early election, because they know what will happen, it is the _ an early election, because they know what will happen, it is the same - an early election, because they know what will happen, it is the same as. what will happen, it is the same as what _ what will happen, it is the same as what happened _ what will happen, it is the same as what happened to _ what will happen, it is the same as what happened to humza - what will happen, it is the same as what happened to humza yousaf. i what will happen, it is the same as- what happened to humza yousaf. thank ou. is time spent on smartphones and social media behind an epidemic of teenage mental illness? parents�* concerns about their kids�* phone use goes all the way up to the prime minister, who has two young daughters. recently esther ghey — the mum of brianna, the 16—year—old who last year was murdered by two teenagers in a park in warrington — discussed with rishi sunak her campaign for under—16s to be banned from social media and only have mobiles with no access to the internet.

it comes as a book called the anxious generation — how the great rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness shot to the top of the best seller lists. its author, jonathan haidt, a social psychologist at new york university�*s stern school of business, claims smartphones provide "a firehose of addictive content" and tech companies have "changed human development on an almost unimaginable scale". what he says is very controversial. some researchers who study this have accused him of telling frightening stories not supported by science. 0thers argue he�*s oversimplified the issue. but many parents swear by his teachings. in a moment we�*ll talk to dr haidt, and the guardian�*s us tech editor blake montgomery. first let�*s speak to esther ghey. thank you for being with us and talking to our audience. remind us what it is you�*re campaigning for?

i�*m running two campaigns. 0ne what it is you�*re campaigning for? i�*m running two campaigns. one to get mindfulness across all schools in england and the other is a petition which over 100 thousand signatures to make mobile phone companies more responsible for children�*s welfare. companies more responsible for children's welfare.— companies more responsible for children's welfare. what does that mean in practical _ children's welfare. what does that mean in practical terms? - children's welfare. what does that mean in practicalterms? so - children's welfare. what does that mean in practicalterms? so i - children's welfare. what does that i mean in practicalterms? so i would two campaigns- _ mean in practicalterms? so i would two campaigns. one _ mean in practicalterms? so i would two campaigns. one to _ mean in practicalterms? so i would two campaigns. one to get - two campaigns. one to get mindfulness across all schools in england and the other is a petition which over 100 thousand signatures to make mobile phone companies more responsible for children�*s welfare. what does that mean in practical terms? 50 what does that mean in practical terms? ., ~' what does that mean in practical terms? ., ~ ., , ., terms? so i would like to see a -hone terms? so i would like to see a hone in terms? so i would like to see a phone in the — terms? so i would like to see a phone in the uk _ terms? so i would like to see a phone in the uk developed, - terms? so i would like to see a | phone in the uk developed, like terms? so i would like to see a l phone in the uk developed, like i terms? so i would like to see a - phone in the uk developed, like i uk developed, like i suppose a child—safe phone. i would like it to have like monitoring apps, parental controls at point of purchase, along with other features. controls at point of purchase, along with otherfeatures. i�*m... h0 with other features. i'm... no access to _ with other features. i'm... no access to the _ with otherfeatures. i'm... no access to the internet? with other features. i'm... no access to the internet? no - with other features. i'm. .. no i access to the internet? no under with other features. i'm. .. no - access to the internet? no under a certain age — access to the internet? no under a certain age no _ access to the internet? no under a certain age no access _ access to the internet? no under a certain age no access to _ access to the internet? no under a certain age no access to the - certain age no access to the internet and no smooefd. 0�* e — social media. and linked like it to have like monitoring apps, parental controls at point of purchase, along with other features. controls at point of purchase, along with otherfeatures. i�*m... h0 with other features. i'm... no access to _ with other features. i'm... no access to the _ with otherfeatures. i'm... no access to the internet? with other features. i'm... no access to the internet? no - with other features. i'm. .. no i access to the internet? no under with other features. i'm. .. no - access to the internet? no under a certain age — access to the internet? no under a certain age no _ access to the internet? no under a certain age no access _ access to the internet? no under a certain age no access to _ access to the internet? no under a certain age no access to the - certain age no access to the internet and no smooefd o�* e — social media. and linked to the

parent�*s phone so over a certain age if they have a browser they can see what they�*re searching for and there is something, if they are searching something concerns, the parents can take control and make sure their child is ok. take control and make sure their child is 0k-_ child is ok. when you met rishi sunak and _ child is ok. when you met rishi sunak and the _ child is ok. when you met rishi sunak and the leader _ child is ok. when you met rishi sunak and the leader of - child is ok. when you met rishi sunak and the leader of the - child is ok. when you met rishi i sunak and the leader of the labour party, do you feel like they�*re listening to you and they will do something? i listening to you and they will do something?— listening to you and they will do something? i do feel like they're listenin: something? i do feel like they're listening to _ something? i do feel like they're listening to me. _ something? i do feel like they're listening to me. both _ something? i do feel like they're listening to me. both meetings i something? i do feel like they're i listening to me. both meetings were really positive. ifeel listening to me. both meetings were really positive. i feel rishi sunak said that he was in the meeting not only as the prime minister, but as a parent as well. so i do think there is an understanding and empathy. and it is not only me calling for change, but so many other groups and parents that are supporting it as well. so i don�*t think that they can ignore this. i think something does need to be done now. part ignore this. i think something does need to be done now.— need to be done now. part of your motivation — need to be done now. part of your motivation for _ need to be done now. part of your motivation for this, _ need to be done now. part of your motivation for this, you _ need to be done now. part of your motivation for this, you told i need to be done now. part of your motivation for this, you told me, i need to be done now. part of your| motivation for this, you told me, is the amount of time parents that are supporting it as well. so the amount of time parents that are supporting it as well. sal the amount of time parents that are supporting it as well.— supporting it as well. so i don't think that _ supporting it as well. so i don't think that they _ supporting it as well. so i don't think that they can _ supporting it as well. so i don't think that they can ignore i supporting it as well. so i don't think that they can ignore this. | supporting it as well. so i don't|

think that they can ignore this. i think that they can ignore this. i think something does need to be done now. ., think something does need to be done now. . ., y ., think something does need to be done now. . ., , ., ., ., ., think something does need to be done now. . ., ., ., ., ., now. part of your motivation for this, you _ now. part of your motivation for this, you told — now. part of your motivation for this, you told me, _ now. part of your motivation for this, you told me, is— now. part of your motivation for this, you told me, is the i now. part of your motivation for| this, you told me, is the amount now. part of your motivation for. this, you told me, is the amount of time brianna spent on her phone? yes, i would say that brianna was yes, i would say that brianna was yes, i would say that brianna was addicted to her smartphone. the amount of... arguments that we had over her screen time and over me not being the amount of... arguments that we had over her screen time and over me not being able to monitor her phone, because she wanted to keep it from me. i think that because she wanted to keep it from me. i think that teenagers think of their phone as like a diary and it is something secret that parents shouldn�*t have access to. she was addicted like a diary and it is something secret that parents shouldn�*t have access to. she was addicted and never had a phone out of her hand. and i witnessed how this impacted her mental health. she had anxiety. she was socially isolated, because online social activity is no where near the same as face to face. she was also, she had an eating disorder and she was self—harming. ifound out after she died she was accessing self—harm and eating disorder sites that were encouraging her to do this. so, yes, she... it impacted her mental health

so much and that�*s why i feel so strongly. because i feel so many other young people are struggling the same way as brianna did. in other young people are struggling the same way as brianna did. in part two, our the same way as brianna did. in part two. your campaign _ the same way as brianna did. in part two, your campaign is _ the same way as brianna did. in part two, your campaign is motivated i the same way as brianna did. in part two, your campaign is motivated by| two, your campaign is motivated by the fact one of the teenagers who was found guilty of murdering brianna had accessed the dark web by down loading feel so strongly. because i feel so many other young people are struggling the same way as brianna did. in part two, your campaign is motivated by the fact one of the teenagers who was found guilty of murdering brianna had accessed the dark web by down loading a browser on her phone? yes. loading a browser on her phone? yes, i think that adults _ loading a browser on her phone? is: i think that adults aren't aware loading a browser on her phone? 123 i think that adults aren't aware of i think that adults aren�*t aware of what yes, i think that adults aren�*t aware of what children are accessing on phones. and if scarlett could access this, it must be easy to do so, and how many other teenagers are accessing this kind of material? and thatis accessing this kind of material? and that is an extreme case. but how many other teenagers or children are accessing self—harm sites and that kind of thing that is impacting their mental health. it is not only these kind of sites that are impacting mental health but the

amount of time they spend online and the lack of social interaction, and asjohn mentions in her book, the lack of going out and being children and, yeah, it is... ithink lack of going out and being children and, yeah, it is... i think they�*re living their lives online. is and, yeah, it is... i think they're living their lives online.- living their lives online. is that our fault. _ living their lives online. is that our fault, parents' _ living their lives online. is that our fault, parents' the - living their lives online. is that our fault, parents' the amountj living their lives online. is that i our fault, parents' the amount of our fault, parents�* the amount of time they spend online and the lack of social interaction, and asjohn mentions in her book, the lack of going out and being children and, yeah, it is... ithink going out and being children and, yeah, it is... i think they�*re living their lives online. is that our fault, living their lives online. is that ourfault, parents�* fault, we buy the phones and pay the bill. we could take control. pay the bill. we could take control. pay the bill. we could take control. we could take that phone away? i could take control. we could take that phone away?— could take control. we could take that phone away? i suppose have you ever? i that phone away? i suppose have you ever? i soppose _ that phone away? i suppose have you ever? i suppose have _ that phone away? i suppose have you ever? i suppose have you _ that phone away? i suppose have you ever? i suppose have you ever- that phone away? i suppose have you ever? i suppose have you ever tried i ever? i suppose have you ever tried to take a phone off a teenagers who addicted to it? it�*s so difficult and i think that we have just got to the stage now where they�*re so a teenagers who addicted to it? it�*s so difficult and i think that we have just so difficult and i think that we havejust got to so difficult and i think that we have just got to the stage now where they�*re so used to having their phones and they are addicted. and i spoke to so many parents, this affects everybody, it is not not just one area. they are saying the same. they�*re struggling to take

control of this. i think it needs to be a collective approach and we need the government and tetch companies and parents and —— tech companies and parents and —— tech companies and parents and decide what a solution to this problem that has been caused. solution to this problem that has been caused-— solution to this problem that has been caused. :, ., ., been caused. you met the mother of scarlett jenkinson, _ been caused. you met the mother of scarlett jenkinson, one _ been caused. you met the mother of scarlett jenkinson, one of _ scarlett jenkinson, one of teenagerses scarlettjenkinson, one of teenagerses found guilty of killing brianna. you was that for both of you? brianna. you was that for both of ou? :, brianna. you was that for both of ou? . ., , , you? the initial meet, was very emotional- _ you? the initial meet, was very emotional- l — you? the initial meet, was very emotional. ithink— you? the initial meet, was very emotional. i think she - you? the initial meet, was very emotional. i think she was i you? the initial meet, was very emotional. i think she was so i you? the initial meet, was very i emotional. i think she was so brave to come and meet me in the first place. because she didn�*t know what my reaction was going to be. and i think for me i wanted to meet her, because i wanted her to know that i didn�*t blame her, i don�*t blame her for what her child�*s done. it is so difficult now to i suppose to raise your child when the child is spending so much time online and they have so many other influences

and i know how difficult that is. yeah, i am glad that i have met emma and, yeah, iwill continue yeah, i am glad that i have met emma and, yeah, i will continue to stay in touch. :, ~ and, yeah, i will continue to stay in touch. ., ,, i. , . and, yeah, i will continue to stay in touch. :, ~ , . ., in touch. thank you very much for talkin: to in touch. thank you very much for talking to our _ in touch. thank you very much for talking to our audience. _ in touch. thank you very much for talking to our audience. we i talking to our audience. we appreciate it. professorjonathan haidt is here. he is proposing no smartphones for under—16s and no social media. and in new york we can talk to blake montgomery, the tech editor for the guardian�*s us version. thank you for being with us. jonathan haidt, ester many parents are worried. i jonathan haidt, ester many parents are worried-— are worried. i would say the world reckon figured _ are worried. i would say the world reckon figured its _ are worried. i would say the world reckon figured its between i are worried. i would say the world reckon figured its between 2010 l are worried. i would say the world i reckon figured its between 2010 and 2015. before then children we appreciate it. 2015. before then children we appreciate it— 2015. before then children we a- reciate it. ., ,, ., , appreciate it. thank you for being with us. jonathan _

appreciate it. thank you for being with us. jonathan haidt, - appreciate it. thank you for being with us. jonathan haidt, ester- appreciate it. thank you for being i with us. jonathan haidt, ester many parents are worried. i with us. jonathan haidt, ester many parents are worried.— parents are worried. i would say the world reckon _ parents are worried. i would say the world reckon figured _ parents are worried. i would say the world reckon figured its _ parents are worried. i would say the world reckon figured its between i world reckon figured its between 2010 and 2015. before then children were not on their phone all the time. by 2015 the world has reckon figured and the time. by 2015 the world has reckon figured and everyone had a smartphone and instagram and high speed internet. at that point, if you tried to take your kid off, as ester was saying, it is notjust hard because she is addicted, but because the whole social instagram and high speed internet. at that point, if you tried to take your kid off, as ester was saying, it is notjust hard because she is addicted, but because the whole social world is on their phone and you�*re condemning your kid to isolation. we stuck in a trap set “p to isolation. we stuck in a trap set up by the tech companies. it is very hard for one person to get out. so i propose four you�*re condemning your kid to isolation. we stuck in a trap set up by the tech companies. it is very hard for one person to get out. so i propose four norms, if we delay phones until after secondary school, and social media until 16 and give kids more independence and free play in the real world, we can give them that childhood.— that childhood. after secondary school, that childhood. after secondary school. and _ that childhood. after secondary school, and social— that childhood. after secondary school, and social media i that childhood. after secondary school, and social media untili that childhood. after secondary | school, and social media until16 school, and social media until 16 and give kids more independence and free play in the real world, we can give them that childhood. blake, no phones for under 16 and no social media until 16 and their mental health issues of teenagers disappears, is it that simple? it is

disappears, is it that simple? it is not that simple _ disappears, is it that simple? it is not that simple i _ disappears, is it that simple? it is not that simple i would say. the science — not that simple i would say. the science i— not that simple i would say. the science i have read, i'm not a social— science i have read, i'm not a social scientist but it does not seem — social scientist but it does not seem the _ social scientist but it does not seem the scientists are settled so we can— seem the scientists are settled so we can say— seem the scientists are settled so we can say this, it is not one cause — we can say this, it is not one cause l _ we can say this, it is not one cause. ,. ., we can say this, it is not one cause. ., , ., cause. i never said it was one cause. i never said it was one cause- my — cause. i never said it was one cause. my book— cause. i never said it was one cause. my book is _ cause. i never said it was one cause. my book is about i cause. i never said it was one cause. my book is about how| cause. i never said it was one i cause. my book is about how there are two stories, one is the loss of play—based childhood and the vast overprotection that sets them up to for more fragility and seem the scientists are settled so we can say this, it is not one cause. i never said it was one cause. my book is about how there are two stories, one is the loss of play—based childhood and the vast overprotection that sets them up to for more fragility and the other is the phone—based childhood. it is a complex story and i wouldn�*t say if we follow the four norms it will make the programme go away. but these rates have been rising ing since the earl 2010s. hagar rising ing since the earl 2010s. how do ou rising ing since the earl 2010s. how do you know _ rising ing since the earl 2010s. how do you know it _ rising ing since the earl 2010s. how do you know it is _ rising ing since the earl 20105. how do you know it is not other things, one criticism is you have cherry picked the data and some research shows no relationship between social

media and mental health. you haven�*t looked another austerity in the uk or... you know schools being closed during the pandemic or chiang. i during the pandemic or chiang. i have —— climate change. i have looked at those. have -- climate change. i have looked at those.— have -- climate change. i have| looked at those._ it have -- climate change. i have i looked at those._ it is looked at those. you haven't. it is said i looked at those. you haven't. it is said i have — looked at those. you haven't. it is said i have no _ looked at those. you haven't. it is said i have no experimental i said i have no experimental evidence. but that is not true. i have collected about 25 experiments, most of them do show an effect and there are other experiments. you icked there are other experiments. you picked 25- — there are other experiments. you picked 25- i _ there are other experiments. you picked 25. i picked _ there are other experiments. you picked 25. i picked all _ there are other experiments. you picked 25. i picked all the - picked 25. i picked all the experiments _ picked 25. i picked all the experiments i _ picked 25. i picked all the experiments i would - picked 25. i picked all the i experiments i would find. picked 25. i picked all the - experiments i would find. there picked 25. i picked all the _ experiments i would find. there are not many. as for the question of how do we not it is not something else. in the us 2012 is when it started, we had a terrible school shooting, maybe it was that. but why diss it cause girls in new zealand and australia and sweden and elsewhere to start several harming at the same time? there is no other theory that

can explain why this thing hit girls around 2012. the science is not settled, is it? it is not subtle. let the science is not settled, is it? it is not subtle.— the science is not settled, is it? it is not subtle. let me throw some other things — it is not subtle. let me throw some other things at _ it is not subtle. let me throw some other things at you. _ it is not subtle. let me throw some other things at you. in _ it is not subtle. let me throw some other things at you. in 2012, - other things at you. in 2012, researchers found a link between these things at most accounted for 0.4% of variation. these things at most accounted for 0.496 of variation.— 0.496 of variation. let's talk about that one. stanford researchers analysed over 200 studies looking at this question and found social media use was not associated with well—being overall. it had very weak correlations with anxiety, depression and social well—being. in 2020, another review of existing research found a mix of conflicting small positive, negative and null associations, unable to identify cause from effect. i could go on. identify cause from effect. i could no on. ., ~' identify cause from effect. i could no on. . ~ ., identify cause from effect. i could no on. ., ~ ., ., ., go on. let me take them one at a time. go on. let me take them one at a time- the — go on. let me take them one at a time. the point _ go on. let me take them one at a time. the point i _

go on. let me take them one at a time. the point i am _ go on. let me take them one at a time. the point i am making - go on. let me take them one at a time. the point i am making to i go on. let me take them one at a i time. the point i am making to you is, the science _ time. the point i am making to you is, the science is _ time. the point i am making to you is, the science is not _ time. the point i am making to you is, the science is not settled. - time. the point i am making to you is, the science is not settled. it - is, the science is not settled. it is, the science is not settled. it is not a slam dunk, so for the things you are suggesting, proposing, you need really great evidence for that, don't you? hold on a second- _ evidence for that, don't you? hold on a second. first _ evidence for that, don't you? hold on a second. first of _ evidence for that, don't you? hold on a second. first of all, - evidence for that, don't you? hntc on a second. first of all, each evidence for that, don't you? tints. on a second. first of all, each of the studies you talk of, the famous 31st of all that found the association between social media and mental health home was no larger than eating potatoes and mental health home. another researcher and i looked at the same data set, took their exact programme, reran it, but now we limited it to social media and girls. 50 now we limited it to social media and uirls. now we limited it to social media and lirls. . now we limited it to social media and uirls. . , , ., and girls. so you cut it up smaller? but theent. .. — and girls. so you cut it up smaller? but theent. .. when _ and girls. so you cut it up smaller? but theent. .. when you _ and girls. so you cut it up smaller? but theent. .. when you do - and girls. so you cut it up smaller? but theent. .. when you do that, i and girls. so you cut it up smaller? l but theent. .. when you do that, you do with the — but theent. .. when you do that, you do with the relationship _ but theent. .. when you do that, you do with the relationshipjumps - but theent. .. when you do that, you do with the relationshipjumps out. do with the relationship jumps out at you. do with the relationship 'umps out at ou. ., . , , ., ., do with the relationship 'umps out at ou. ., . ,, ., at you. you cut it up smaller to say what ou at you. you cut it up smaller to say what you wanted _ at you. you cut it up smaller to say what you wanted it _ at you. you cut it up smaller to say what you wanted it to. _ at you. you cut it up smaller to say what you wanted it to. our - at you. you cut it up smaller to say what you wanted it to. our story i at you. you cut it up smaller to say what you wanted it to. our story is| what you wanted it to. our story is that social — what you wanted it to. our story is that social media _ what you wanted it to. our story is that social media is _ what you wanted it to. our story is that social media is particularly - that social media is particularly harmful to girls, that is what it shows. , ~ harmful to girls, that is what it shows, , harmful to girls, that is what it shows. , shows. sorry, blake, come back in. if we are banning _ shows. sorry, blake, come back in. if we are banning social— shows. sorry, blake, come back in. if we are banning social media, - shows. sorry, blake, come back in. if we are banning social media, we | if we are banning social media, we are doing —

if we are banning social media, we are doing it— if we are banning social media, we are doing it for everyone under 16, notjust— are doing it for everyone under 16, notjust girls. first - notjust girls. first of all, there are so many different ways kids are harmed. just today in the guardian, there was an article about sexual extortion. there are, we don't know how many, hundreds of thousands of kids being extorted, mostly boys. we want our kids to be hanging out on platforms were strangers from all around the world can get to them and tricked them? there are so many avenues of harm. my critics have mostlyjust said, we look at one of those and find the correlation is too small. but there are so many other ways. let's go back to blake. parents do say there is a problem. their kids are on their phones too much, parents can't or won't step in. there is an issue. it's how you deal with it. would you accept that? i agree. i do think, unlike the professor— i agree. i do think, unlike the professor says, there is a tidal wave _ professor says, there is a tidal wave of— professor says, there is a tidal wave of teen mental anguish. parents across— wave of teen mental anguish. parents across the _ wave of teen mental anguish. parents across the globe have said, we are struggling — across the globe have said, we are struggling with this new—found issue. — struggling with this new—found issue, and i do think that's true. i also _ issue, and i do think that's true. i also think— issue, and i do think that's true. i

also think research into this runs the risk— also think research into this runs the risk of— also think research into this runs the risk of confirming the bias of, pandering — the risk of confirming the bias of, pandering to the feeling of being ignored — pandering to the feeling of being ignored in favour of a phone, which is an— ignored in favour of a phone, which is an experience we have all had, and is _ is an experience we have all had, and is a _ is an experience we have all had, and is a had _ is an experience we have all had, and is a bad one. but that doesn't necessarily— and is a bad one. but that doesn't necessarily mean that arguments that hit on _ necessarily mean that arguments that hit on it— necessarily mean that arguments that hit on it are _ necessarily mean that arguments that hit on it are correct. but i do think— hit on it are correct. but i do think it — hit on it are correct. but i do think it is _ hit on it are correct. but i do think it is true, parents are struggling with this issue and have always _ struggling with this issue and have always. can struggling with this issue and have alwa s. ., struggling with this issue and have alwa s. . _, struggling with this issue and have alwa s. . ., ., always. can i come back to that? want to hear— always. can i come back to that? want to hear from _ always. can i come back to that? want to hear from some - always. can i come back to that? want to hear from some kids, i always. can i come back to that? want to hear from some kids, if| always. can i come back to that? i want to hear from some kids, if we want to hearfrom some kids, if we may. sima went to meet parents and pupils at thejohn wallis church of england academy in kent. they've banned students from having phones at school. well, the moment you arrive at school, you have to unlock your pouch and you put your phone inside and it will be locked throughout the day. and at the end of the day, you'll be able to unlock it and it and take out your phone, so you're walking home and all that. the behaviour's definitely improved. everyone's focussing in their lessons, everyone's hard—working and set to get good grades. tom, some might say banning phones for under—16s is a bit nanny state, telling people what to do

shouldn't come from ministers? i think young people will often have an app on their phone i which is not the right age for them to use. - so for example, most young people have whatsapp. - whatsapp has got quite a high age rating. - so i don't know whether regulating phone use for young people - would be that effective, as there is always - a kind of way around it. personally i feel it's down to the parents, i think knowing your child and knowing how they are is a huge part of it and what you deem to be safe and how they can be safe online is also down to the parents to educate them. i think the government has a part to play in it, but they can only do so much. cally, we have heard some experts say that mental health is associated with the time you spend on devices like your phone, and have you noticed a personal difference since you have not had your phone throughout the day? i feel a bit more happy when i'm talking to my friends, i express my feelings. i feel like among the younger years,

they have had phones for longer, so they have been more affected. it's quite heart—breaking to see the younger years affected this bad by anxiety or depression. there are some experts who don't feel there a link between the device and your mental health. what's your view on that, daniel? in lots of cases there are links, at least the way i see it, - there are links between the - mental health and the phone usage. i have seen cases where people have | been pretty much bullied over social| media by people who would be too afraid to say that in person. - have you ever experienced a child being on a device looking at distressing content? i'm so strict, because i'm very strict on the apps and the ages. so my daughter didn't have a phone until she was in secondary school and we avoided a lot of conflict. i tried to do the same with my son. however, he still was then able to access inappropriate materials through someone else's device. can i just ask you, kelly, do you find she is on her phone more because she doesn't it at school

when she gets home? yeah, so i do feel that there has. been probably a negative side of it that when she comesl home she wants to go on her phone and wants to do the typical kind of scrollings. i so it's something we really have to watch and limit. i whereas before i think- we were maybe not as strict, but it's become more evident that a bit of a habit develops since not| being on her phone during school. have you noticed a difference in how much you're using your phone when you get home? not necessarily as much as i thought there would be. at first when i heard there would be as strict a phone ban on school, i thought there was going to be generally, it was going to cause problems. i think if anything it's made it better, because people are talking more to each other in school, so something they may have argued about outside of school online, they have realised it's not a problem, because they have resolved it in person instead. i'm sure many of you can relate to

some of those issues and conversations. professor, have you had a meeting with the prime minister rishi sunak? yes, i had a zoom meeting with him on some of his policy staff about a week and a half ago. what are they interested in from you? they wanted to know more about the state of the research, the evidence of causality. we talked about age issues, social media. there is a stunning statistic released by 0fcom recently that one quarter of british kids aged 5—7 now have their own smartphone, so my sense was, it was just a very general meeting where it was clear they have got the policy people, we were trying to figure out the best policy, so we talked about that. what can politicians realistically do? let's say you banned smartphones for under 16 is or social media. it is impossible to enforce, isn't it? as an american, i am assuming that my micro—congress is completely dysfunctional and we will never get

help from congress, so i have proposed norms that we could do even without help from government. where government can really help is in mandating oh proposing or encouraging phone free schools, as we saw from those kids. wherever it is tried, it is magical. the kids love it, the teachers love it, everyone loves it. it is insane that we allow kids to have a distraction device in their pockets. that is pretty noncontroversial, most people would agree. blake is nodding away. i would agree. exactly.- i would agree. exactl . �* , i would agree. exactl. �* , ., i would agree. exactl. , ., , exactly. and then the big one is really going _ exactly. and then the big one is really going to _ exactly. and then the big one is really going to be _ exactly. and then the big one is really going to be age _ exactly. and then the big one is i really going to be age verification. i agree with blake, there are technical obstacles to doing that well and guaranteeing privacy. but in the real world, we say a bar or a casino, anything that has to do with sex or addiction or violence, we say, we don't let children in there, and if you have a business, yourjob is, you have to keep the children out. in the virtual world, there is nothing. they can watch pornography or beheading videos and there is nobody there.

on that point, blake montgomery, that example thatjonathan just that example that jonathan just gave, that example thatjonathan just gave, what would be a better way, do you think, when it comes to young people and mobile phones? i don't think that is a solution. it would _ i don't think that is a solution. it would do — i don't think that is a solution. it would do more harm and involve more collection— would do more harm and involve more collection of— would do more harm and involve more collection of data from children then— collection of data from children then we — collection of data from children then we already see, sol collection of data from children then we already see, so i don't think— then we already see, so i don't think that _ then we already see, so i don't think that is the solution. but are ou think that is the solution. but are you genuinely _ think that is the solution. but are you genuinely saying, _ think that is the solution. but are you genuinely saying, professor i you genuinely saying, professor haidt, that if we went down your route of no access to smartphones or social media, and at 16, wejust drop 16—year—olds into social media and smartphones without anything? yes. at the moment, we are dropping them minute ten. why would it be worse to wait till 16? they don't need a running start. we can learn it in a week. —— michael drop them in at ten. sure, but i wonder if keeping the lines of communication open, educating young people about the risks and the dangers and safety,

and if you're going to take phones