example that jonathan just that example that jonathan just gave, that example thatjonathan just gave, what that example thatjonathan just gave, what would be a better way, do you think, when it comes to young people and mobile phones? i don't think that is a solution. it would _ i don't think that is a solution. it would do — i don't think that is a solution. it would do more harm and involve more collection— would do more harm and involve more collection of— would do more harm and involve more collection of data from children then_ collection of data from children then we — collection of data from children then we already see, so i don't think_ then we already see, so i don't think that _ then we already see, so i don't think that is the solution. but are ou think that is the solution. but are you genuinely _ think that is the solution. but are you genuinely saying, _ think that is the solution. but are you genuinely saying, professor i you genuinely saying, professor haidt, that if we went down your route of no access to smartphones or social media, and at 16, wejust drop 16—year—olds into social media and smartphones without anything? yes. at the moment, we are dropping them minute ten. why would it be worse to wait till 16? they don't need a running start. we can learn it in a week. —— michael drop them in at ten. sure, but i wonder if keeping the lines of communication open, educating young people about the risks and the dangers and safety,

and if you're going to take phones away from a whole generation who get positives out of social media and smartphones, who find people they can identify with, because they can't talk to their parents. you need serious evidence to do that, don't you?— don't you? let's talk about what kind of evidence _ don't you? let's talk about what kind of evidence is _ don't you? let's talk about what kind of evidence is needed - don't you? let's talk about what | kind of evidence is needed here. do you need serious evidence to do that? , , ., ., , that? yes, but we have it. that is, we have the _ that? yes, but we have it. that is, we have the eyewitness _ that? yes, but we have it. that is, we have the eyewitness testimonyi we have the eyewitness testimony from the kids themselves. eyewitness testimon , from the kids themselves. eyewitness testimony. come _ from the kids themselves. eyewitness testimony, come on. _ from the kids themselves. eyewitness testimony, come on. if— from the kids themselves. eyewitness testimony, come on. if all— from the kids themselves. eyewitness testimony, come on. if all the - from the kids themselves. eyewitness testimony, come on. if all the kids - testimony, come on. if all the kids are saying. — testimony, come on. if all the kids are saying. this — testimony, come on. if all the kids are saying, this is _ testimony, come on. if all the kids are saying, this is ruining - testimony, come on. if all the kids are saying, this is ruining our- are saying, this is ruining our lives, i think that is a kind of evidence. it lives, i think that is a kind of evidence-— lives, i think that is a kind of evidence. ., , �* ., , evidence. it doesn't mean it is, thou~h, evidence. it doesn't mean it is, though. does — evidence. it doesn't mean it is, though, does it? _ though, does it? that is not what they are all sayind _ that is not what they are all saying. there are a huge number of children— saying. there are a huge number of children who have great positives and community, and i could go on. you find _ and community, and i could go on. you find me — and community, and i could go on. you find me essays written by generation z defending the phone —based life. i have been looking. they are almost impossible to find. you find many people talking about how this has destroyed their childhoods and taken them away. but

if i can make this point about the level of proof necessary. in a criminal trial, we need very extensive evidence. in a civil trial, is the preponderance. is this probably the cause or not? i believe where we are, with the experimental evidence on social media, it is that it is a preponderance of the evidence. i agree the science is not subtle. but the preponderance of evidence. there is no other theory out there. no one else can explain why this happened globally. but that does not mean _ why this happened globally. but that does not mean you _ why this happened globally. but that does not mean you are _ why this happened globally. but that does not mean you are right. - why this happened globally. but that does not mean you are right. it - does not mean you are right. it doesn't, but if we do what i am saying... doesn't, but if we do what i am sa in: . .. doesn't, but if we do what i am saying- - -_ doesn't, but if we do what i am sa in... , , saying... let me “ust pause there, because we — saying... let me “ust pause there, because we are — saying... let me just pause there, because we are almost _ saying... let me just pause there, because we are almost out - saying... let me just pause there, because we are almost out of - saying... let me just pause there, l because we are almost out of time. saying... let me just pause there, i because we are almost out of time. i want to be clear about what you think rishi sunak might want to do about this. he is interested in your book and the policy people clearly are. what vibes did you get? i book and the policy people clearly are. what vibes did you get? i think the main thing _ are. what vibes did you get? i think the main thing is, _ are. what vibes did you get? i think the main thing is, the _ are. what vibes did you get? i think the main thing is, the uk _ are. what vibes did you get? i think the main thing is, the uk has - the main thing is, the uk has already passed two of the best laws out there, the age—appropriate design code and the caps online safety bill. those are complicated pieces and required a lot of details to be worked out by ofcom and others. i don't know what he was intending. we had a very general discussion. i think the uk is already the world leader in trying to get a handle of this to help

parents raise their kids in the way that we won, because right now we can't. thank you both. blake montgomerie, thank you very much forjoining us from new york, professorjonathan haidt, thank you for your time this evening. that's it from kirsty in glasgow, nick in edinburgh and me. i'm back tomorrow. see you then. that became like a way for politicians in australia to use refugees close to the election, use the refugees to

manipulate the public. and i think that is really important. one of the architects of australia's policy is the former foreign minister, alexander downer. he's also an adviser to the uk government on border policy and is on the panel set up to oversee the implementation of the rwanda policy. hejoins us now. thanks so much, alexander, for your time today. we heard him talk about the damage the australian policy did to himself and others, there is no justification for the human rights violations, what does that mean to you? violations, what does that mean to ou? ~ ., ., , violations, what does that mean to ou? ., you? what we did do is stop people makin: you? what we did do is stop people making dangerous _ you? what we did do is stop people making dangerous journeys - you? what we did do is stop people making dangerous journeys from i making dangerous journeys from indonesia to australia where hundreds of people were drowned, so this was a very dangerous practice. we stopped it pretty much altogether tjy we stopped it pretty much altogether by saying that when people tried to come to australia that way they wouldn't be processed in australia, they be processed in nauru or people would pay people's binoculars

in order to make thatjourney, so we destroyed the people smugglers business model and saved many lives. it was hard for some people who wanted to make thatjourney, obviously, as you've just heard, there is no doubt about that, but we did save many hundreds of lives, if not thousands by stopping the practice. 50 not thousands by stopping the ractice. ,, �* not thousands by stopping the ractice. i. �* not thousands by stopping the ractice. ,, �* ., practice. so you're saying that the means justify _ practice. so you're saying that the means justify the _ practice. so you're saying that the meansjustify the end _ practice. so you're saying that the meansjustify the end and - practice. so you're saying that the meansjustify the end and then i practice. so you're saying that the i meansjustify the end and then with means justify the end and then with regards to the policy of the boats. you've also recommended this push—button policy on the boats to the uk despite the un singer dangerous and illegal. it’s dangerous and illegal. it's dangerous _ dangerous and illegal. it's dangerous for _ dangerous and illegal. it�*s dangerous for people to make journeys across channel when you've had people drown just in the last week trying to make those journeys. they're coming from france and they are not being persecuted in so it makes perfect sense to stop people making thatjourney makes perfect sense to stop people making that journey and makes perfect sense to stop people making thatjourney and by makes perfect sense to stop people making that journey and by saying that they will be processed in rwanda, they will be obviously

processed according to the un refugee convention, and that will be a disincentive for them to make the journey. 50 a disincentive for them to make the “ourne . ,, �* a disincentive for them to make the “ourne . i. �* ,, ., , journey. so you're essentially sa in: journey. so you're essentially saying that — journey. so you're essentially saying that it _ journey. so you're essentially saying that it shouldn't - journey. so you're essentially saying that it shouldn't be - journey. so you're essentially| saying that it shouldn't be the journey. so you're essentially - saying that it shouldn't be the uk's problem, it could potentially be france's problem and then rwanda's problem under this agreement. is using geography though effectively saying that it shouldn't be up to the uk or the uk is probably really good enough? i have a quote from philippe a grundy, he is the high commissionerfor philippe a grundy, he is the high commissioner for refugees. philippe a grundy, he is the high commissionerfor refugees. he commissioner for refugees. he says... commissionerfor refugees. he says... protecting refugees requires all countries to uphold their obligations, this arrangement seeks to shift responsibility for refugee protection under minding it into a national corporation and setting a worrying global precedent. i national corporation and setting a worrying global precedent. i don't think it's worrying _ worrying global precedent. i don't think it's worrying to _ worrying global precedent. i don't think it's worrying to stop - worrying global precedent. i don't think it's worrying to stop people | think it's worrying to stop people making dangerous journeys, think it's worrying to stop people making dangerousjourneys, we do that in all sorts of different ways with laws, be they motor vehicle journeys or aircraft journeys with laws, be they motor vehicle journeys or aircraftjourneys or whatever they happen to be. and to make journeys across the channel on

these tiny little boats which are little more than rafts, is extremely hazardous and dangerous. and people are after all making the journeys from france to england, they are not making journeys from afghanistan or ethiopia or wherever it may be to england. the obligation under the refugee convention is to provide people living in genuine fear of persecution with protection. it doesn't say you have to protect them tjy doesn't say you have to protect them by making them migrants. itjust says you have to protect people. and they will be protected, they'll be protected in larue, in rwanda just as in the case of australia, they were protected in leroux and papua new guinea. the were protected in leroux and papua new guinea-— new guinea. the other thing about the rwanda _ new guinea. the other thing about the rwanda bill _ new guinea. the other thing about the rwanda bill is _ new guinea. the other thing about the rwanda bill is the _ new guinea. the other thing about the rwanda bill is the cost - the rwanda bill is the cost and value for money question. for each

of the first 300 people the government supports to kigali. as of the 21st of april over 6000 people across the english channel in small boats. to across the english channel in small boats. ., , �*, , boats. to save people's lives, might cost money — boats. to save people's lives, might cost money but _ boats. to save people's lives, might cost money but if _ boats. to save people's lives, might cost money but if you _ boats. to save people's lives, might cost money but if you stop - boats. to save people's lives, might cost money but if you stop the - cost money but if you stop the practice then that will be value for money. if you don't stop the practice then it will continue to see people drowned and making these dangerous journeys and see your immigration policyjust totally immigration policy just totally dismantled. immigration policyjust totally dismantled. you know, it makes perfect sense and the cost per refugee, as it's put, depends very much on how many people are involved. it's impossible to make that sort ofjudgment in terms of cost. that sort of 'udgment in terms of cost. �* , ., . ., that sort of 'udgment in terms of cost. �* , ., ., cost. and 'ust to come back to the euote cost. and just to come back to the quote once — cost. and just to come back to the quote once again, _ cost. and just to come back to the quote once again, he _ cost. and just to come back to the quote once again, he did - cost. and just to come back to the quote once again, he did talk- cost. and just to come back to the | quote once again, he did talk about the politics of immigration when it comes to this, we see immigration often comes up when there is an

election coming around the corner, is not the case here as well? i is not the case here as well? i can't really speak for the politics of it butjust the practicality of the policy, i imagine most people think it makes sense to stop people making hazardousjourneys think it makes sense to stop people making hazardous journeys of that kind. and in the case of australia, it takes about 20,000 refugees a year through resettlement programmes with the un, and that seems to work perfectly well, but stopping people making incredibly dangerous journeys makes perfect sense. making incredibly dangerous 'ourneys makes perfect senseh making incredibly dangerous 'ourneys makes perfect sense. thanks so much for our makes perfect sense. thanks so much for your time. — makes perfect sense. thanks so much for your time. we _ makes perfect sense. thanks so much for your time, we have _ makes perfect sense. thanks so much for your time, we have to _ makes perfect sense. thanks so much for your time, we have to leave - makes perfect sense. thanks so much for your time, we have to leave it - for your time, we have to leave it there, alexander downer, australia's former prime minister. let's stay with israel's military campaign in gaza — and look at the protests against it that are sweeping across college campuses in the united states. pro—palestinian protesters at columbia university in new york have defied an order to disperse, saying they will maintain their encampment on campus until their demands are met. the university issued the ultimatum on monday, telling students

to dismantle their tents orface suspension. the deadline has passed, but hundreds of protesters have stayed on site and officials have confirmed they started to suspend students who have defied the order. let's hear from some of protesters there. we will not be moved by these intimidation tactics. you can see outside you now that the students are mobilised. there's hundreds of them here today. they will not be moved. we demand divestment. we will not be moved unless by force! i think the power and collective strength demonstrated by the students is incredible because it seems like every day or every other day or so, the university comes up with some arbitrary deadline. and rather than scaring off the students, we come back stronger and more...and more strong together than we ever had before. and i think there's as you can see, there's a lot of popular— support people who are coming out to defend the students, _ to defend the encampment. and i think it's up— to the administration how much

they're going to escalate. but we're here to protect. the students from whatever the admin does next. let's take a look at the universities with the biggest protests. university of southern california has cancelled its graduation ceremony, on what it says are safety grounds. in austin, texas, the governor ordered state troopers to arrest demonstrators. there have also been hundreds of arrests at universities in texas, atlanta, california — and virginia, these pictures are from virginia tech. 0ur correspondent nomia iqbal has been giving us the latest from columbia university. the atmosphere here on campus is pretty calm, people are in an upbeat mood. earliertoday pretty calm, people are in an upbeat mood. earlier today there was this deadline, students were told by the president of the university to voluntarily stop moving, and there is an application therefore that people might come in. we did see police outside but that's not happened. students are still inside the encampment and they are saying

they're not going anywhere until their demands are met, and those demands are to cut economic ties with israeli institutions. professors at the university, have also been disbanded. 0rfired. many of them were actually standing outside the entrance of the encampment, arms length, to protect the students inside. i spoke to a student who is a negotiator trying to get these demands met, and he said to me, his name is mahmoud hillier, he said the students weren't budging until all these demands are met and they will keep going one of the key dates coming up his graduation on may 15, there are students here who are on either side, really, whojust want students here who are on either side, really, who just want to get to graduation. but the students with the gaza solidarity movement have said to us that they will keep going as long as it takes. a mysterious roman artefact found during an temperature archaeological

dig is going on public display for the first time in lincolnshire. it's been baffling experts ever since it was dug up in a field in last summer. what is known is that it's one of only 33 dodecahedrons found in britain, and thought to be more than 1,700 years old. we know it's not a tool. we know it's not a practical item, because ours shows no signs of wear whatsoever. it's been under an electron microscope. there's nothing to indicate that it's been used in any way like that. it's not a measuring device, because dodecahedra don't come in standard sizes. they all vary enormously, so you can't measure things with it because of that. what's more likely to have been the case is that we think there's some religious connection with our site. we know back in 1989, there was a small roman rider god found in norton disney, very close to where our find was, which is only found on temple sites, generally. and ours was found in a big pit and it looks like the dodecahedron was placed there deliberately

as some sort of offering, possibly. so it's quite likely that it's some sort of religious or ritual device. the romans were a very superstitious lot. they liked to have something tell them what to do, and the good thing about the dodecahedron is, it has 12 sides — you get 12 choices with it. the duchess of edinburgh has become the first member of the royal family to visit ukraine since the start of the russian invasion. the government said her one—day visit on behalf of the foreign office was to show "solidarity" with victims of the war with russia. during her visit she met with survivors of torure with survivors of torture and sexual violence. as well as ukrainian children and families at the ukrainian charity save children. charity save the children. she also paid her respects at the mass grave in bucha to those who have lost their lives during the russian occupation. she also met vlad myrtle zelinski

along with the first lady was shown around the cathedral in kyiv. taylor swift says she is "completely floored" by achieving millions of sales for her latest album the tortured poets department. the us superstar has broken a string of records with her latest release, including passing the one billion streaming mark, when it became spotify�*s most—streamed album in a single week. she now occupies the top 1a spots on the billboard hot 100 — the first artist to ever do so — which she said on social media was "unbelievable". the album also sold 2.61 million units in the us, — she ties with jay—z for the number of number one albums released by a solo artist. that's all from us here on news day, bye—bye for now.

it was a very different story further west hello there. monday brought some bright and breezy conditions for some of us, and in the sunshine it felt pleasantly warm, particularly if you had a little bit of shelter. in fact, we saw temperatures around 17 degrees through east anglia and down into the london area. it was a very different story furtherwest, however. cloud and rain lingered for much of the day and in some spots we had just shy of half an inch of rain. now, if we take a look at what's going to come through tuesday, unfortunately, out to the west we'll see quite a lot of cloud and some outbreaks of rain. clearer skies further east and with lighter winds we'll see a little more in the way of sunshine. so showery rain across south—west england, wales and into northern ireland through the morning. that low pressure not moving very far, so it'll stay rather grey and damp. we could see a few scattered showers across east anglia and south—east england into the afternoon. but sandwiched in between the two, a lovely slice of sunshine. temperatures will respond,

the high teens quite widely here. even in the cloud and rain, well, we'll see temperatures mid—teens for some. some improvement into northern ireland. western scotland keeps a few scattered showers, but eastern scotland a little bit cooler with a breeze coming in off the sea, but it will be largely dry and sunny. so that low pressure just pulls a little bit further out to the west and the wind direction changes to more of a south—easterly. now, to start off with on wednesday it'll be a relatively mild start but that south—easterly breeze, well, that could just drive in a little more cloud in off the north sea and the potential for some showery rain to drift its way along those east coast once again. east coasts once again. so west will be best on wednesday in terms of sunshine and potentially in terms of warmth. so we could still once again see temperatures into the mid to high teens quite widely. now, as we move out of wednesday, towards the end of the week, the weather story gets a little bit messy. it's likely that that weather front could still enhance some showers across central and southern england. the low pressure never too far away with the best of the drier, brighter weather the further north. we're always going to keep those temperatures, though, slightly above the average for the time of year. but still that wind

coming in from the east. so at times we will be chasing cloud amounts around. there will be some outbreaks of rain, but it'll stay relatively mild into the bank holiday weekend.

welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. lebanon has long been a dysfunctional state, tragically for the lebanese people it suits many powerful players, both inside and outside the country to keep it that way. having just about staved off total economic collapse at the start of this decade, lebanon is currently the arena for an increasingly dangerous showdown between israel and the iranian—backed militia hezbollah. my guess is lebanon's economy minister amin salam. does his government have the means and the will to avert a national calamity?