the calendar will start over. you better order your new calendars now. thanks for all of you being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. stay tuned for "reliable sources." the supreme court heard a pair of same-sex marriage cases this week as more democratic politicians rushed to offer their support for such unions. any questions where the media come down on this one? >> most americans now say they have a gay friend or family member. some of the change is generational and then there's our media culture. >> are news organizations being fair to opponents of same-sex marriage? is public opinion being swayed by more gay journalists coming out? barbara walters retiring next year after an incredible career as a tv trailblazer from

"today" show to the talk show she launched with only women. >> this is a show that i am now going into our 17th year next year that i have -- i'm blamed for the bad, as well as the good. and sometimes i have nothing to do with it. sometimes it is the network. >> you are the face of the network. >> look at her legacy and whether "the view" can survive without her. i'm howard kurtz and this is "reliable sources." we are standing by for news conference in kaufman, texas, that is expected to start any minute about the shooting death of mike mclelland and his wife, cynthia, in their home yesterday. just two months after his deputy was fatally shot. we'll bring that press conference to you when it happens. it is hard to imagine

television without barbara walters. she was the first female star on "today" show and first woman to co-anchor a newscast on nbc. >> good evening, i'm harry at abc election headquarters. with me barbara walters and howard k. smith and we'll be here for how long it takes to determine exactly what happened tonight. >> she landed countless big interviews over the years with everyone from world leaders to celebrities. >> yes. >> do you drink too much? in our country, we read that you are unstable. we read that you are mad. what kind of a tree are you? because you think you are a tree now. >> everybody would like to be an oak tree. >> mr. president, your supporters say you saved the banking industry from collapse. you saved the automobile industry. you cut taxes for the middle

class. if you did all of these things, why are you so unpopular? >> well, first of all, barbara, i'm not so -- >> first i gave you the compliment. >> i appreciate it. >> barbara walters told me she won't comment on what she calls rumors, but a source familiar with the situation confirms that the 83-year-old journalist will finally hang it up a year from this may. walters gave up her oscar specials a couple years ago. she told me on this program that she was tired of chatting up the same old movie stars. >> it doesn't seem special to me any more. i feel i've been there, done that. i thought that i didn't want to g get stale. i could have stayed for 30 years and then everybody would say, it's time for her to go or maybe she was pushed out. >> joining us from boston carol simpson and author of the.

what has given barbara walters such incredible staying powers over the decades? >> because she's just the best. i am sure she will go down in history as the greatest television newswoman ever. and she deserves the accolades and the position that she enjoys. because i have never seen any. i worked with her at both nbc and abc and i have never seen anyone work as hard as barbara walters. and i suspect and i hope it won't be any time soon that on her dying bed she will be calling god looking for an exclusive interview before she goes to heaven. she's just a remarkable woman and i'm so proud of what she has done. >> since you did work with her at two networks. what influence did she have personally, professionally on your career and your aspirations? >> not much because i was always based in washington and she was

in new york. so, i would see her at the occasional function by the network. she did give me some advice, though. i toyed with the idea of moving back to chicago, my hometown and running for congress. and i told her, i said, barbara, i want to be in congress. and she said, you crazy fool. why would you do that and be one of 435 people instead of being an anchor on the weekend and reaching millions of people at one time? she said, forget about that. and i really thought about it and said she's right. she's right. i probably do have more -- >> she saved your journalism career. >> oh, yeah, how happy i'd be to be there now. >> eric, people forget in these days of "the view" that her, the big breakthrough was that she was the first female co-anchor on abc evening news and how shabbily she was treated in that

role. he clearly didn't want to sit next to her. >> she was a trailblazer and i think she was a trailblazer in another important way. she brought together some of the entertainment values that we see in news now where you, you're cognizant of celebrity and cognizant of making an impact with pop culture and brought that together with new sensibilities. so, some of the things we see in terms of how "dateline" nbc or "today" show handles news stories now, she pioneered in her time both as a news anchor and later with her entertainment specials that mixed politics and entertainment in the '70s. >> was that a good thing or a bad thing? >> i think it was both. i mean, it created a style of news that is engaging people now, but some people feel it can be taken to an extreme and be taken too far and it cheapens the news. so, she started something that

has been quite profitable and that has kept people engaged in the news and a double edge sword for the news business. >> katie couric before her at cbs. what role in your view did barbara walters play in changing that environment to not only become possible, but now commonplace? >> she talked to me about it when the women of abc were trying to get more representation on programs at the network. and she said, you know, you all shouldn't be fighting these battles. i was the one that went through the field and started breaking up the ground and so on. and once the ground is broken, you all are going to have to navigate around the boulders and all of that kind of thing. but you shouldn't are to break up the ground, again. so, she was very cognizant of the fact that she had broken

through the glass ceiling and she stayed on the air like some of the older white gentlemen that are on tv and at advance stages. i'm so proud that she was able to stay because women were given up on at age 40. and i think that because of her great talent at getting anybody to talk to her and talk to her openly she is just the bomb. >> well, personally, i don't know what she's thinking talking about retirement in a year. she's only 83. eric, the other part of her legacy is, of course, "the view." talk about that show and how it became a cultural force that presidential candidates feel compelled to stop by and chat with the ladies. >> well, she created a template for daytime talk that has been cloned across the networks now. we've seen nbc try to do its

version with hoda kotb and kathie lee gifford. >> by clone, you mean ripped off, imitated. >> i don't know that it's the most original thing to have four people in front of a camera talking about the day's events. that's been done for quite a while. but barbara walters was able to create a unique template that melded news and entertainment. she had the president on, she had ex-presidents on and some very important political figures on while at the same time having some of the most entertainment oriented programming that you could have in daytime all in the same, all in the same, you know, hour-long show. and, particularly, in the first 15 minutes, you always wanted to tune in to see what is going to happen. what are they going to talk about and what sort of news story will they uncork that they will be talking about later in the day. that is an amazing achievement. >> hot water cooler topics.

with "the view" losing joy behar and barbara walters not officially confirming, but she will be stepping down in may 2014. can that show survive without its founding member and force? >> well, you know, whoopi goldberg is the host of "the view." and barbara was kind of like mother hen to all of those women and what kind of put whoopi in her place when sometimes she got out there, i can't really see the network turning over the show to whoopi to run it with her erratic ways and her tendency to say what she feels, no matter what the consequences. howie, i just wanted to say one thing about the fact that barbara is retiring. i was very concerned when she fell at the british embassy during the inauguration in january. >> yes. >> and then to come down with a case of chickenpox, which my

daughter, who is a physician, calls very unusual. she probably isn't doing that well. she had open heart surgery before then. and it's probably tv people are great actors and she looks great and continues to talk, but maybe she's not feeling that well. >> testament to her fortitude that she's overcome those obstacles. i'm glad you pointed that out. let me touch on another subject before we go to break. that is over at msnbc, chris hayes is about to start a primetime show this week. he has used quotas in booking his weekend show, just new miracmer numiracle test. no more than two should be white men. do you think that goes a step too far? i know you're an advocate of getting more minorities on the air. >> i don't necessarily think that goes too far. the pool that you're choosing from that everyone is qualified

to be a pundit. as we know, that bar is kind of low. as long as you are choosing from a group of people, all of whom are able to talk about the issues in a way that's great for the show, then saying that an extra level is that you want to make sure they're also diverse, i don't know how you achieve that other than keeping track. one of the problems that we have is -- >> let me jump in because we're short on time. we're all mindful of diversity. i think about every single week trying to get more women and minorities on, we could do better. but, carole, when you talk about not just making an effort butting having numiracle quotas, that does suggest to some people that it is not about getting the most guests on, but achieving a certain demographic mix. >> i appreciate what chris hayes is trying to do because i worked at abc and, again, when the employees were trying to get better representation of

minorities and women on shows like "nightline" and "this week" with david brinkley it was at the time, it was all white guys. every sunday when martin luther king birthday's came along they would get some black guests to talk about it. i remember they used the congressman from california who was head of the house armed services committee. but they wouldn't talk to him. they wouldn't book him when they were talking about arms. they booked him when they were talking about martin luther king. >> right. >> so, we came up with a list of experts that were asian and hispanic and black and female that could be used in these expert roles without the same usual suspects. >> that's a good point. we're going to get a break right now. a reminder that we're standing by for a news conference in texas about the shooting death of mike mclelenland and his wif

cynthia. when we come back, latest plot twists in the soap opera known as "today" show. [ male announcer ] this is george. the day building a play set begins with a surprise twinge of back pain... and a choice. take up to 4 advil in a day or 2 aleve for all day relief. [ male announcer ] that's handy. ♪ [ male announcer ] that's handy. there's a reason no one says "easy like monday morning." sundays are the warrior's day to unplug and recharge. what if this feeling could last all week? with centurylink as your trusted partner, it can. our visionary cloud infrastructure and global broadband network free you to focus on what matters. with custom communications solutions and dedicated support, your business can shine all week long.

i'm candy crowley in washington. we wanted to let you know that we continue to monitor events in kaufman county, texas. this is where the d.a. a, district attorney michael mclelland and his wife, cynthia found dead in their home on

saturday. you are now looking at kaufman law enforcement center where we expect a news conference to take place with more detail on what happened. the flags, as you can see, have been lowered to half staff. what is making this news all the more tragic is that two months ago mike mclelland's deputy was gunned down outside the courthouse. so, within two months, kaufman county has seen the death of its assistant d.a. and the d.a. and his wife found saturday. we'll continue to monitor these events and we'll bring you the news conference live when it happens. right now we want to return you to "reliable sources." >> thanks very much, candy. turning now to "today" show as we have talked about on this program. matt lauer continuing to take a beating over the departure of ann curry and the messy way that was handled. now a report that nbc executives this week reached out to cnn anchor anderson cooper to gauge

his potential interest in co-hosting "today" show. cooper told nbc that he was not interested. eric, what does that tell you about the situation with nbc's morning show? >> it tells us that matt lauer's image is in a lot of trouble. they need to do a little image rehab with their star. they just signed a new deal with matt and they're paying him a lot of money. i think there was a sense that he was the one thing they could count on to preserve that show's popularity and now he's the one thing that is most under attack in these stories. this idea that he didn't save ann curry before she was moved from the show. that they didn't get along and that you could see it on the air. and, you know, now, to have the ratings troubles that they're having, as well. it's all sort of piling on matt lauer's head and nbc seems powerless to hold back or prevent this. >> carole simpson, a lot of

people concluded with this phone call to anderson cooper who, just to repeat, said he's not interested in leaving cnn. maybe matt lauer would be replaced next week. i was told that nbc is committed to matt lauer. what a lot of people don't understand is that networks talk to talent all the time about would you be interested down the road, fillieeling people out. can you elaborate on that, please. >> yes, they put out feelers to people who could possibly come to their places when they needed some help. anderson, i don't think, although he's doing his talk show, i don't know. but i can't seem him doing cooking segments. i can't see him talking to the pets and things like that that they have on "today" show. but, he certainly would bring some excitement to the show, if he were to be brought in. i just want to tell you that

when you're on tv, when you've been on tv. people are always asking me. they think i have all the answers about what is going on. i have to tell you, i never had as many people ask me about ann curry than happened when she was so unceremoniously taken off the show. she was more popular than i think nbc executives thought she was. people are very upset and they blame matt lauer. this is the public. they blame matt lauer for pushing her out. >> that is certainly the perception. i have reported that matt lauer tried to slow that train down and he has criticized in his interview with me the way nbc mishandled that situation. the morning show soap opera will continue and we'll keep an eye on it. thanks for stopping by this morning. reminder that we're continuing to wait for that news conference in texas about the killing of the district attorney in that area and his wife two months

after his deputy was killed. we'll bring that to you live. when we come back, a supreme test for same-sex marriage. have the media already ruled on one side of this issue? all right that's a fifth-floor problem... ok. not in my house! ha ha ha! ha ha ha! no no no! not today! ha ha ha! ha ha ha! jimmy how happy are folks who save hundreds of dollars switching to geico? happier than dikembe mutumbo blocking a shot. get happy. get geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. i'm up next, but now i'm singing the heartburn blues. hold on, prilosec isn't for fast relief. cue up alka-seltzer. it stops heartburn fast. ♪ oh what a relief it is! [ male announcer ] a car has a rather small rear-view mirror,

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less than a year after legal analysts told us the supreme court would strike down obama care far more cautioned when the high court heard challenges to prop 8 ban on same-sex marriage. >> there seemed to be no interest in issuing a sweeping decision on same-sex marriage, one way or the other. >> the one dominant sense that i got from the justices was that they want that great debate to continue. >> there was a similar sense of caution after a second court hearing on the defensive marriage act. liberal commentators are thrilled that the marriage debate is swinging their way, at least in the court of public opinion while several pundits were muted or surprisingly supportive. >> about sexual relations or but basic liberty.

who you want to be married to. >> the compelling argument is on the side of homosexuals. we're americans, we just want to be treated like everybody else. that is a compelling argument. and to deny that, you got to have a very strong argument on the other side. >> and the argument on the other side. >> hasn't been able to do anything but the bible. >> not everyone on the right was happy, though. rush limbaugh unloaded on o'reilly. >> how many of you who watch fox are bible thumpers? because last night you were sort of marginalized. on the factor. as not having a compelling argument and just being a bunch of bible thumpers. >> so, how are the media coverage this seat change on a major social issue. the founder and editor of

americablog.com. jennifer reuben who writes the right turn blog for "washington post" and reporter for ckudlow report. it was cautious based on the juses's questioning. >> i think the media has followed the pundits. the pundits have the sense that prop a, they media went down that path. it made sense. are the media pumping this into moral cases as opposed to legal cases that according to the law and the constitution? >> a natural tendency when lawyers don't cover the court. i accept myself in this. to miss a lot of the nuances. a lot of procedural issues, including the prop 8 case, which i agree with justice kennedy. there are a lot of complications having to do with that case, per

se. including the matter, the state of california is no longer defending it. >> are journalists missing these nuances? as a recovering lawyer? >> they do. sometimes characterize as trying to duck the issue or avoid the issue. this is what they do. during the business of deciding legal case as based on a whole slew of legal. if there is a party defending the law. it's not surprising that they want to worry about things like standing, which is the technical legal term and it's not a thing to explain to the audiences. it's much more interesting, trying to explain that there has been a seat change in american public opinion. >> from, obviously, having a personal issue in a long time. are the media waking up to the fact that this is a civil rights issue? >> i think so. the way i would sort of describe it. i think the media is being objective and in the middle. the thing is, the middle has shifted. look at african-american civil

rights. in 1996, maybe it was okay. we wouldn't say now, but back then okay to discuss on tv. should we or shouldn't we think this is bad for society? ten years ago i would go on tv and debate whether gays are pedophiles. cnn anchors jumping in and shutting down the debate when a religious rights spokesman. the force is in the middle and it naturally has gone in that direction, as well. >> media in the middle? >> to some extent, yes. this is not something that conservatives necessarily, you know, dwell on. but i think in the media you have fewer people who are religiously conservative. not politically, but religiously. so, there's a lot of sympathy and a lack of understanding for people who hold those views. >> you don't think there's a subtle sense or sometimes not so subtle sense of cheerleading for same-sex marriage in the media. a position that even as the public support has risen to, say 58% recent "washington post" poll a lot of americans and a

lot of state governments still strongly oppose. >> i think there is. i had an interesting conversation with now retired senator joe lieberman's press secretary who said, i never got as much love from the media as when we were working on don't ask, don't tell. i never got a hard question. i never got a press on an answer that i got because i think there is this sense and i think because of the demographics and because they tend to come from big cities in america, they tend to be socially more liberal. that said, i don't think that they have mocked, i don't think i haven't seen rudeness or abru abruptness. perhaps a lack of nuance and understanding, if you will, in the beliefs of the other side. that said, last sunday, i believe it was, before or two sundays ago, you know, very balanced debates on the morning television shows. there wasn't, you know, a pro-gay marriage and another pro-gay marriage. there were people on both sides. >> another thing that has changed. you know this several

journalists not out as being gay. >> don lemon at cnn, you have a number. >> right. i want to play some tape showing how certain gay journalists have talked about this on the air and talked on the other side about how it has perhaps subtly influenced the debate. we'll start with rachel maddow who was talking about just as ruth bader ginsburg talking about same-sex marriage being treated as a skim milk marriage. play the tape. >> this is no skim milk drink. and i think america is about to leave skim milk marriages behind. >> getting married in the fall was something really personal and really incredible that we got to experience with our family there, supporting us. our loved ones. so, i highly recommend it. >> thank you very much. my girlfriend, stephanie gosk

and i who works here are expecting a baby girl at the end of august. >> jenna wolf saying she is pregnant with her girlfriend, who also works at nbc. imagine that happening 15, 20 years. that would have been a bombshell and now a blip. >> absolutely. >> does this have any impact on public opinion? now is not just faceless people, but people who come into your living rooms who say, hey, i'm gay. >> absolutely. even if you look at the way journalism has gone over the last 10 or 20 years, it has gotten more personal in a way. one thing that fox does very well, fox news they personalized their commentators in that whether you like o'reilly or not, you know who they are. they have become real people for you. not just citing the facts. >> don't you say that is true on the other networks? >> i think fox took the lead on it. don't go bias in that sense, but the readers or the viewers like the humanity and you see it in blogging, as well. when the commentators are also a

gay, in addition to being black or jewish or whatever, you start to say, oh, there is a real person here. how does it make you feel as a gay person when rachel maddow pours a drink. >> i think rachel is more of an advocate but when i see cnn's objective news people like don lemon or anderson coming out publicly it means something to me. i'm out as a gay man, i'm not being forced out of the closet. i see that and i'm proud. it even matters to me. so, i think you can't really separate the personal from the objective public in this sense. >> what about tv shows and movies, vice president biden cited "will & grace" as helping to change american's attitudes, not on gay marriage, but all part of the same ball of wax. this is hollywood pushing the liberal agenda? >> i think it is a variety of factors. hollywood is reflecting this

change. before the show talking about why we have had this revolution in public opinion in such short time. much faster, i think, than the civil rights movement of the 1960s. i think it's confluence of events. i think it's culture and media and the gay advocates coming out so that everyone knows that it's not just gay marriage in the abstract but frank and john down the street and jill and ann by the water cooler. so, that i think all these factors coming together and also i think the fact that marriage is no longer seen as a religious institution -- >> look at hollywood and tv back in the '60s. "guess who's coming to dinner." >> changing racial attitude. >> look at "star trek" michelle nickehols doesn't matter the re of you out there, but played one of the lead characters in the '60s, she is black. martin luther king told her, don't you dare leave that show, you're making a difference. >> i was not expecting "star trek" to be cited.

thanks very much. a reminder that we're standing by for a news conference in texas involving local prosecutor. this program will be right back.

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twitter is phenomenally popular among juournalists but new app called vine adds video to the mix. as long as you limit it to six seconds. how are news outlets handling this new toy? here are stars stopping by cnn. here's "new york times" covering fashion sweek. ♪ and "new york" reporter giving viewers an up-close view of hurricane sandy. looks windy. i spoke to two journalists

earlier to examine the politentl of vine. joining us from new york, brynn gingras and katie linendoll. no matter how quickly you talk, what can you say in six seconds? >> you can say a lot. obviously, our viewers nbc in new york really want news right now and want it instantaneously and that's the service we try to provide for them. when i go out on the story, i want to get that information out there as quick as possible. we can tweet in 140 characters and imagine the volumes it speaks with six seconds of video. i have a good exampleal for you, howie. i was privileged last year to be recognized by twitter by having a top tweet of 2012 and i took a snapshot of that roller coaster in seaside heights. but imagine if i was using vine last year and i was able to capture the roller coaster with

the waves crashing against it and the dock i was standing on that was just destroyed. so, really, it is a great service to our viewers. >> isn't this six-second app really pushing the media further down the road towards superfishiality? >> i don't think so. i think seeing a number of different brands use it in unique and creative ways. we're all about self-promotion. this is just another tool to add to your brand. when we talk about urban outfitters to events like new york auto show and hollywood on board. just the other day, we saw the movie "wolverine." before the first time before the trailer was out put out a six-second looping vine of the film. really, powerful, creative tool. it re-creates. >> on that point, katie, is it promotion or journalism? >> i think it can be both. i, as a journalist, i like to use it behind the scenes. i think people are fascinated when you give them a glimpse into the war. when i was out by south by

southwest, take a six-second clip, that's all the time people have attention for anyways and show somebody a different perspective as opposed to this very polished tv segment. >> brynn, do you agree with that? in shrinking attention span that six seconds matches the audience, what the audience wants and 10 or 15 seconds would be way too long? >> yeah. i mean, six seconds i think is a perfect amount of video. i mean, that's what our viewers -- >> time is up for that answer. six seconds. keep going. >> yeah, no, it is a terrific way to get the information out there as fast as possible. you want to know exactly what's going on at that moment. you want breaking news and you want it in the palm of your hand. that's exactly what vine is allowing us to do. i think six seconds is all you need. you can be creative with that. i had a colleague who did a time lapse of a snow storm. six seconds of video of the snow building up and so creative and

interesting way to tell the story. >> at least you can get a sentence and a half out. ica katie, why does twitter want to have video six seconds long? >> i think it makes a lot of sense. in the early stages of creating vine they experimented with a four to ten-second time limit and six seconds read perfectly for them. but in terms of pushing video content on twitter, which we don't need to tell you, it's a powerful platform embedded seamlessly and very clean. with a tweet you send a video and quick to watch and makes a lot of sense to have this under their tool belt. >> also easy, brynn, to do out in the field when you whip out your phone and you can shoot and post in a short period of time? >> it is very easy. a little limitation that i would like to see them adopt. for example, when you're using your iphone, you want to take video of yourself. there was one time i was shooting storm coverage and i wanted to show the sand and the

wind coming up against me. it's hard to do that when you can't turn the screen towards you and you can't see what you're shooting in that perspective, but very easy to shoot and our mindset as journalists is to capture everything we can whether it be for our newscast later in the evening or to give the perspective what we're seeing. >> if you can't shoot yourself, it should be about us, the journalists. katie, the latest shiny tech toy and in a year from now we'll talk about something else. something that will last three seconds. >> that's a problem, especially in the app world and the influx of apps, themselves. i think vine is going to get better and we have yet to see it on the android side. i think it's a little buggy. a lot of capability that can be added and make it a more powerful tool. just the first week alone when it was released, sky rocketed. i don't think it's going away any time soon. even my friends who are not

journalists, they love it. i think it will just get better. >> pass the friends test. katie linendoll and brynn gingras, thank you. >> thank you. "reliable sources" will be back in a moment. [ mom ] 3 days into school break and they're already bored. hmm, we need a new game. ♪ that'll save the day. ♪ so will bounty select-a-size. it's the smaller powerful sheet. the only one with trap + lock technology. look! one select-a-size sheet of bounty is 50% more absorbent than a full size sheet of the leading ordinary brand. use less. with the small but powerful picker upper, bounty select-a-size. even in stupid loud places. to prove it, we set up our call center right here...

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allyson byrd seemed born to be a reporter but she was gave up she -- in south carolina she didn't go quietly. she posted an essay saying this is the reason i left news. came to accept the vanity of a byline left me physically and emotionally exhausted and yet supremely unsatisfied. i spoke to her earlier in south carolina. welcome. >> thank you so much, howard. >> in your last newspaper job, you worked a lot of hours and felt you had to be available all the time, even on vacation and in your view weren't paid enough. you know nobody goes to journalism to be rich, right? >> i sure do. >> why did you give it up. >> i felt like i was no longer developing personally or professionally in the job. we were asked to do so much with so little to produce more and more every day and i felt i was

no longer developing my craft, as a writer or as a journalist. >> now, you write -- in a way you seem to blame the audience in your now-famous blog folks you wrote they tried to comply with whims of a thankless audience with a microscopic ape tension span. you felt you were trying to do good journalism and people weren't paying attention. >> i guess it is a chicken and egg scenario. it is because people demanded more that we responded that way or we tried to put so much information out there that they came to expect it. i don't know but the end result was definitely clear. you were asked to produce so much with so few resources. >> originally you loved reporting, and then you came to question the value of what you were doing. is that fair? >> i don't feel that way. i always have loved and continue to love reporting. it just stopped being as fun. >> you write also in this piece,

i don't know a single person who works in daily news today who doesn't have her eyes trained on the exit sign. can that be true? everybody wants to get out? it seems that newspapers for all of their woes and cutbacks have plenty of applicants who would like to work in the newsroom. >> right. i should qualify that statement. since i wrote the blog post i have met a lot of people who do not have their try eyes trained on the exit sign. a lot of people responded they do intend to stay in journalism. at the time i wrote that within the sphere of people who i know, yes i would say it was fair. >> how much in your view involves the question of compensation? if you were making significant higher salary would you have felt the various sacrifices involved in being a journalist were worth it? >> you know, i don't think it was the sacrifices weren't worth it. it was just that because of the demands i felt that the actual product was diminishing.

it had a lot less to do with money and more to do with feeling proud of what i was producing at the end of the day. >> talk more about that. on one hand you felt overworked, under paid. anyone the business can probably relate to. that and you felt over time the stories you were doing you didn't have enough time to do solid journalism and felt you were just cranking it out. ? >> i think it changed a lot good bit. i entered the industry at a time when on-line was just becoming so prominent in newsrooms. at that point, you would write a version of a story at the end of the day and it would go up on a website. over time you were writing multiple throughout the day and there's a phrase that we use in the industry, just throw it up on the website when something first breaks. i remember we had a legal expert talk to us at the newspaper and he said when you are throwing it up on the website, that's what you are literally doing, vomiting content on to the

internet and i didn't necessarily think that was the right way to do journalism. >> it is a bit of a hamster wheel. now you are in a saner job in pr. is there anything you miss about being a journalist? >> i don't actually work in pr. i work in fund-raising for a public hospital here in south carolina. i still write stories daily and interact with interesting people. day in and out my work is similar surprisingly. i miss being part of the newsroom. i miss suppose seeing a fire on the side of the road and chasing after it and getting the story first and tweeting it out to people and just i guess sort of having that knowledge of what is going on, but in general i'm happy where i am right now. >> hard to lose those urges. happy you are happy where you are now and how one person views the craft of journalism. >> thank you for having me. appreciate it.

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it sounded like a big excleelive for "the today show." matt lauer announcing that jerry sandusky will explain in his own words what he says happened on the penn state campus. it turned out it was not an nbc interview. instead matt lauer shared with ziegler who talked to the former coach from jail. and he has an ajen d.a. he is making an agenda called the framing of joe paterno. the late penn state head coach founded by an independent reader to help cover up sandusky's horrible crime. to his credit, matt lauer pressed about jerry sandusky's conviction. >> do you believe he was wrongly convicted? >> jerry sandusky already had his day in court. >> do you believe he was wrongly convicted? >> i have written about this at our website. i want to say that my focus has been on joe paterno. >> do you believe jerry sandusky is a pedophile and guilty of the things -- >> i have no doubt that jerry sandusky was guilty of m o