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mesothelioma for over ten years mesothelioma is really all we do. >> 808724901 tonight are 360 breaking news. the former president loses one bid to n1 trial, but learns he might get a month long delay in another without trial less than two weeks away. from a michigan courtroom. we're breaking news. a father convicted of manslaughter for the murders his son committed. and the latest from haiti in my conversation with shawn pen about what his religion leaf organization core is facing on the ground there as gangs remain in control of much of the capital. >> good evening. >> we begin tonight with the breaking news on the former president and happen just hours after for he walked into the federal courtroom, the judge, he himself appointed aileen cannon, sitting opposite hur. he watched as his attorneys argued the jack smith's classified documents case should be dismissed. >> the >> lawyers defended two of their nine motions to dismiss today, including the one arguing that the presidential records act allowed him to designate the classified documents he took his personal even though his own words

suggest he knew otherwise, listen >> as president, i couldn't eat less that. no, i can't hit up, but this is isn't that interesting. >> interesting indeed, prosecutors today read a transcript of that for judge cannon, who did not rule on the issue and related motion this evening. she did, however, reject another we have details now from cnn's kaitlan, poland's who joins us from outside the federal courthouse in fort pierce, florida. so talk more about the motion that the judge dismissed >> well, anderson, that was emotion. we're done. donald trump wanted judge aileen cannon to dismiss the case because his lawyers were trying to argue that the law around national defense secrets and the handling of classified records that that was too vague of a law. judge, aileen cannon. she didn't buy it she made that clear >> in court and then shortly after the hearing, she issued her order instead, i'm not going to to dismiss the case on this argument that you made today. >> she said that

>> this could be something that could come up where trump may want to argue this to a jury or that they discuss a little bit closer to trial heading into that trial setting the parameters for how the trial will go, the presentation to the jury. but that's how that particular argument went. there was another argument today as well. it didn't go that great either for the former president, judge aileen cannon was quite skeptical about arguments his team was making. these presidential records were personal because trump said so because he wanted to take them from the white house and keep them at mar-a-lago for the presidency, judge cannon made pretty clear that she wasn't really on board with that argument and seem to articulate herself in the same view as the federal government. the justice department in this saying that presidential records are presidential records, not everything can be a personal record just because someone tesa, but she hasn't ruled on that particularly yet. >> what was the atmosphere like in the court when the

courtroom, everyone is pretty cool. comfortable in this case working together. this is now ten hours that judge cannon has spent with these lawyers. and donald can trump in just the past few weeks doing arguments. and so trump is getting to the point where he's chatting with these lawyers. he's reacting to the arguments that are being made, either some of the members of jack smith's team and jack smith was in the courtroom today, they react to when people stand up and make different points before the judge. >> now the thing about judge cannon know is she's very hard to read and she doesn't often tip her hand. this is the one of the first hearings where we have seen her really side or at least indicate that she was going to side one way or another and she did follow that with an order, at least on one of these motions shortly after the hearing. >> and is it clear when she's going to decide the trump team's other arguments for dismissal >> no, >> judges can take however

>> much time they need to make a decision. but the every time there is a delay in judge cannon issuing an order on one of these motions. trump is making. that's the longer it goes before everyone can set the table for the trial they'll end to see how that will shape up. and anderson, i should add this is two motions where trump is asking to dismiss the case by my count. there are seven more of these that could be argued from both he and his two co-defendants so there are so many things that are stacking up for judge aileen cannon still to do here? anions she needs to write where we really need to watch and see exactly where she's going to go. she has done very little to get through the pile of paperwork on her desk in this docket to get this towards a trial. and of course, hasn't set the trial date yet. we're still waiting on that schedule >> yeah. katelyn polantz, thanks so much on his neck as former federal judge nancy gertner, to former federal prosecutors bestselling author jeffrey toobin, and jennifer rodgers and former fbi deputy director andrew mccabe. jeff,

how much of this is a setback for the former president? >> not much. >> i mean, if there's some, >> there's so many more issues coming and what he's really trying to do is delay the case. the headline for me today is, you know what? happened today? >> nothing much. >> i mean, there >> is just so much more that this judge has to deal with to get this case to trial. she's going at a very leisurely pace. she's taking hours and hours. >> are they going to have hearings for each of these other possibly seven possible. >> she hasn't said yet, but at the rate, she's going and the way she's letting the lawyers talk on and on about some of these motions are just absurd. i mean, the idea that it's unconstitutional for jack smith to be supervising this case. it's completely justice department employee. we but but all of them i have to be decided before a trial date takes place, and she hasn't said a trial date and this case continues to be on a slow boat to nowhere. >> judge gertner. i mean, judge cannon only denied one to the former president's motions to

dismiss charges that typical that she would decide only one will nothing about the way she's handling the case is typical. so these are motions that could have been disposed of quickly these emotions that are not raising issues that are extraordinary and they could have been disposed of it quickly. and what she's done is she's allowing lengthy hearings on motions that really could be just taken care of. and if she does that with respect to the others, then we are talking about a delay. what is interesting about what she said though? is that she's kicking all of this to the trial itself. and the trial would could well be a mess, allowing trump to raise defenses that really no one else would be allowed to raise essentially scuttling a trial if she ever gets to one and that of course, is an open question >> entering this motion to dismiss the trump team argued today that the presidential records act essentially requires the case be thrown out do you i mean, what kind of a precedent would the judge be

setting? she agrees. >> so that's the motion she didn't decide today there were two that they heard she heard them one attacking the espionage act 18 usc 7-9 d3, as being unconstitutional. she decided that in a two page ruling, the second one they argued she hasn't given us a ruling on that one quite yet. and that's his presidential records act in which he basically says i as president, waved a magic wand over these documents and turn them into personal papers. and therefore, it can't be charged for them >> seems to run counter to what he said in that audio, which is there was a time i could have declassified them, but i didn't and he clearly acknowledged on that tape that he knew those things were at that time. so classifieds so there is that problem. the other problem is there's nothing in the presidential records act that says that it gets in front of or eliminates the applicability of things like the espionage act and the fact that you cannot maintain or hold or withhold national defense information are classified records when you

don't have the authority to do so. and those are criminal offenses that have nothing to do with the presidential records act. so i don't think many people give that motion much legal credence. it's another one that probably should have been disposed without even a hearing. but here we are. let's play that >> audio of what the prison said at when he was talking into that group in his room on the recording >> as president, i can update that. no, i can't get out, but this is is that interesting having damaged do you think that recording is for this case, jenner? >> well, if we ever do get to trial, i mean, that's obviously a key piece of evidence for the prosecutors there. i mean, they have to prove intent to knowledge and nothing better than a defendant's own words. >> there's still may not go to trial it may not go to trial. i mean, she's been slow walking at the whole time, like judge gardner said, there's really no excuse for how long all of these things have been taking. it's frustrating for jack smith and his team because you can't really appeal that, right? you can't say to the 11th circuit, she's slow walking this case, you should be deciding more quickly. that's on a basis for

overturning anything are taking her off the case. and yet, if we get beyond the election and trump wins again, then of course he'll just immediately shut it down and we'll never see trial at all. >> but you know what's most remarkable about this hearing just like the hearing two weeks ago in new york, it's the trump is there. he doesn't have to be there. there is no reason for him to be there, except that he wants to be there. this is the trump campaign trump has decided and it may be a good decision that being a martyr, being someone who was attacked in court is good for his candidacy. and look, he's leading in the polls as far as i can tell. so maybe it's the right decision, but this is how he's campaigning by being a defendant in court in judge gertner, i mean, if if he believes that the judge likes him is that an incentive to go to the court and been front of her as often as possible? >> well, i think he's reminding her of his presence, but i mean, i think jeff is

right. he doesn't he doesn't have to be there really, it's very interesting about the ways in which his defenses and these arguments are dovetailing with what he wants to say to the two on the campaign, like he has a motion that this is selective enforcement, that his what, eight months retention of documents that he was told were classified is somehow the equivalent of biden's garage or pence's garage? or hillary's emails. he that's the selective enforcement you've gone after me when nobody else has. and these are essentially campaign themes. but as i said before really any other judge would have said denied and could've done denied without a hearing are done denied with the same two-page order that she did so she's really spending way too much time on all this enabling him to make arguments that no one else would have made. >> jennifer, what do you make? i wasn't trying to interpret what the judge said about about

the idea that trump could designate records as personal and take them to mar-a-lago. she she called it forceful what what does that mean? >> does that is i have no idea. is that means that's an aggressive idea or wow, that's a forceful thing you can do. >> i hesitate to try to interpret what this judge is saying. >> that's not a legal word that i've just not pretty have you do because i'm not a lawyer. >> no. no, that is i mean, i honestly don't know what she means. >> okay. more than a little bit of the time and i >> don't know what she means here. i don't know if anyone else says new ideas, but it's, it's not a legal term of hard. >> do you think this argument, andrew, about selective prosecution is what i mean, we've seen how the hur report you can make the argued that sort of argues against selective prosecution >> i don't think the selective prosecution arguments going anywhere. it's an incredibly tough defense to mount under any circumstances. and here, if that's the comparison between the this case and the investigation of joe biden's

president biden's possession of classified documents after his term as vice president, if that's the comparison they want to make, i'd be very confident arguing that what if i was a member of jack smith's team? there are so many massive massive fundamental factual differences between those two investigations. it's not even quite selective prosecution is a defense that almost always fails because what the judges say, look if you're guilty, you're guilty. we're not worried about what other defendants did. so the idea of selective prosecution, if the evidence shows is that you're guilty, it's just always a loser. >> all right. judge gertner, thanks for being with us. everyone else is going to stick around. we've got another trump trial to talk about before that, though, more breaking news, a guilty verdict in the trial of a man named james crumbley on manslaughter charges for the mass shooting his son committed at a school in oxford, michigan plus what aaron rodgers is now saying about cnn reporting. he privately shared false conspiracy theories about the mass murder at sandy hook elementary school

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>> the lead with jake tapper, cnn, we days so you're looking to live pictures of oakland county prosecutor karen mcdonald talking now about our breaking news and victory for

>> her and illegal first, a mom and dad both convicted of man's a lot are in connection with killing killing was that their teenage son carried out their son murdered for high school students in oxford, michigan, two-and-a-half years ago, six students and a teacher were also wounded. now, last month, the jury said the killer's mother, jennifer crumbley, bore responsible ability and convicted her on four counts of involuntary manslaughter. today, it was the father's turn. more from cnn's jean casarez guilty of involuntary manslaughter, guilty >> james crumbley, the father of the oxford, michigan high school shooter, convicted four counts of involuntary manslaughter. >> these four where children >> what happened that >> day is about the deaths of these four children and what james crumbley did and what he didn't do. >> think about everything that james crumbley did not know he

did not know he had to protect others from his son >> crumbleys son was 15 years old when he opened fire in his school november 30, 2021 prosecutors say crumbley bought in the gun didn't properly secure it and ignored warning signs about his son's mental health >> james crumbley, heady, willful disregard of unknown danger cause any cause the death of four students and aspirin high school. >> during the trial, jurors watch a video of the two of them practicing at a shooting range. the sound of gunfire ringing through the still courtroom jurors also saw journal entries from before the attack where his son appeared to be begging for help. i want help, but my parents don't listen to me, so i can't get any help but the defense argued that james did not know about any of this

>> you heard no testimony and you saw no evidence that james had any knowledge that his son was a danger? to anyone. >> we've >> heard about the journal if james knew what was in that journal, the prosecution would have told you that at the end of november, the shooter road he only had one thing on his mind all i need is my nine millimeter pistol, which i am currently begging my dad for. >> mr. conley asked to see the sig sauer, said he had had his eye on that for quite some time on black friday, james bought his son the sig sauer nine millimeter, and the shooter posted online just got my new beauty today. his dad hit the gun, but didn't lock it up a cable lock bought with it found in its packaging. i will have to find where my dad hid my nine millimeter before i can shoot the school monday, november 29, the shooter

apparently founded writing the shooting is tomorrow. i have access to the gun and ammo. i am fully committed this to now hana's st. juliana justin shilling, madison baldwin and tate myre were killed seven others were wounded. james crumbley himself did not testify it is my decision to remain silent. >> james crumbley's wife, jennifer, convicted of involuntary manslaughter just last month. >> we find the defendant guilty of involuntary manslaughter she faces up to 15 years in prison >> outside the courthouse in pontiac, michigan. this is really just a stunning verdict. what have been some of the reactions you've dean or read since the verdict was right >> you know, anderson, the family members of those four students that were murdered at oxford high school they have been a formidable force in the

courtroom. the hearings i've attended the trials that i've attended the guilty pleas that i've attended >> there there and they talk about amongst each other how they have to relive this over and over again. while they were in that courtroom when that verdict came out, they got >> justice tonight and they were hugging a prosecutor. is there is such a bond between them and the prosecutors. this was a very important moment for them. >> it's so ensuring that this guy is was essentially his attorneys are arguing well, he didn't know about any of the trouble his son was having. obviously, the jury didn't buy that >> no, it's interesting. they deliberated a long time. we don't know what if they took pole and they were on different sides, but it appears as though with the length of the deliberations, i mean, they started at 09:00 this morning and then tonight they had a verdict. so the defense argument was that james crumbley, the evidence did not show that he knew his son was

having many until difficulties. >> yes. he lost a friend? yes. his grandmother died? yes. his dog died. that he realized that but didn't know it extended that far. but after that drawing that math drawing that showed the bullets, the blood everywhere, my life is useless. the world is dead, bullet holes in a person that's when prosecutors say and it looks like the jury believed it that light bulb should have gone off the head of james crumbley, that there was a very serious issue with his sun in terms of sentencing, what's next >> well, his sentencing is april 9th at 09:00 a.m. right here. that is the very same day and time that jennifer crumbley's sentencing is going to take place. so both of them together, but it makes sense because you're going to have victim impact statements here in michigan victim impact statements there codified in the statute and they encouraged them. they want everyone who is

a victim of famine family member, immediate surviving victim, to be able to present that victim impact statement. so one day, i think is appropriate. so the families won't have to go through it two separate days and two separate times >> gin, because ours thank you for everything. i appreciate it coming up next back to the former president's legal troubles this time, it's new york stormy daniels hush money case and the unexpected move, prosecutor alvin bragg just made signaling he is open to delaying the trial less than two weeks before it's set to start >> welcome to the waiver hood wayfair vibe play is western >> my thing, darling. >> shy gardening. >> some of us go for the dramatic >> how did i know we've had vanity's entitled this? >> give me ottomans. without legs. can you flip for the cruise in the waiver hood? there's a place for all us.

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we'll also send you a bottle of our newest fat burner thermo x, absolutely free >> closed captioning brought to you by mesobook.com our firm has offered a free book about mesothelioma for over ten years. mesothelioma is really all we do. >> 808724901 tonight is breaking news and one from trial, which we reported the top of the broadcast comms hard on the heels and potentially good breaking news for him in another, we've learned the manhattan district attorney alvin bragg is okay with postponing his hush when a trial if the judge agrees and this comes just days after federal prosecutors handed over thousands of pages of documents from their own investigation, after which they decided not to bring charges as you know, the new york trial is set to begin on the 25th this month, pushing it ahead a month would mean it

could begin the same day. the supreme court has said for oral arguments on the presidential immunity in the january 6 case the former president course does not have to be there for that, but he will have to attend his criminal trial, join his now with morrison and chief legal affairs correspondent paula reid. so how did this happen with the trial date less than two weeks away >> anderson, i think the judge is going to have the same exact question. if this is a surprise twist, certainly gives a boost to trump who has been employing the strategy of just trying to delay all of his criminal cases and delays ahead of trials. that's not an unusual occurrence. but here this delay is the result of the fact that both sides now need to review tens of thousands of pages of evidence that was only handed over by federal prosecutors on wednesday. >> remember this is a state case so this is information coming from previous federal investigations. why is it just coming in now? what depends who you ask. >> the >> trump team insist that the manhattan district attorney that is bringing this case against former president trump, but they have withheld it, but

prosecutors insist that the trump team just waited until earlier this year to subpoena the evidence as part of it the effort to delay the trump team wants to push this case back 90 days. prosecutors say they wouldn't object to a 30 day delay, but ultimately, it'll be up to the judge. >> and do we know when the judge mega decision? >> well, enderson this case was scheduled to start in ten days, so i would expect a decision quite soon. open question though, is whether this judge is going to want to have a hearing or a teleconference just to press the parties on some of these issues, but i would expect this in a matter of days. and does so >> how does that impact the overall calendar trump's court case? because this was supposed to be the first one yeah. >> and it was the only one that was firmly on the calendar now, with the help of our calendar graphic here, i mean, the other three criminal trials right now are in limbo. the january 6 federal prosecution. it's unclear when that's going to go or if it'll go at all. because in april, the supreme court will hear arguments on whether former president trump has immunity to shield him from that case. and then we don't

expect a decision there until probably mid to late june now, in may, you see the classified documents trial. is there look, that's just in pencil. we were in court two weeks ago where the judge, aileen cannon at trump appointee, she heard arguments about when she could push that back at based on what we heard while i was down in florida, anderson i think she would probably put that august at the earliest. then you also have the georgia case that fani willis said she wanted to bring in august. currently, there is of course, an open question of whether she will still oversee that case and those efforts to disqualify her certainly will have delayed that case beyond august so anderson, with this new request for a delay, we'll see what the judge does. but right now, it is not clear if former president trump will face any criminal prosecution before november. >> all right. all right. thanks. backward. geoff tube and jennifer rodgers and andrew mccabe also joining us. margaret hoover host a firing line on pbs >> injured doesn't make sense. you southern the federal prosecutors. why would they just now send this stuff over? i know they were subpoenaed, but couldn't have sent this

stuff to the admin handy at earlier. >> there's not a good answer for that question there. >> i >> think on the surface, the multiple prosecutors offices in new york. so you have manhattan and then you have the two federal prosecution offices. because the southern district and the eastern district, on the surface, we always hear about good cooperation in the war foresman community. >> but in the nitty-gritty >> of individual cases, in my own experience for having been an agent there for a decade or so >> these >> these requests for evidence or access to each other's witnesses are often fraught with competition and defensiveness. prosecutors want to be very careful before they turn over documents to another prosecutor's offices to ensure that they're not going to use them or need them at some point in the future, i would expect there were some calculations like that involved or basic bureaucratic delay. it takes a lot of approvals and up the chain of command. well, i mean, jennifer, in the the filing, da bragg blames the former president's legal team saying that they didn't try to seek

the records until january. he wrote, we note that the timing of the current production of additional materials from the us a0 is a function of defendant's own delay, but if bragg knew this material was out there, couldn't he have asked for it? >> yeah. it depends what it is and we don't have a great idea about that. we may learn more when they file their actual substantive response either tomorrow or monday but it sounds like at least some of these materials, a lot of them are bank records and things that probably aren't so critical. but some of them at least are statements of people like michael cohen who's going to be a witness, that stuff that they should have the defection have. so if there are statements of michael cohen that weren't turned over previously, they need to have them. we don't know what alvin bragg knew that the fed's had is the problem. >> but jeff, does that make sense to you? >> this is all so outrageous. you're all being very polite here. i mean, the us attorney's office in manhattan, the southern district, according to the manhattan da the da aster these documents last year and the us

attorney's office for whatever reason, chose not to turn them over as a result, they only turn them over just very recently, which the da says is all the southern districts fall. why didn't the southern district cooperate with these fellow prosecutor? >> i mean, if it obviously alvin bragg, i would think would want to see any interviews that michael cohen gave and he >> asked for them and he asked for them. and the us attorney said no. and the us attorney apparently has thousands more records that they're going to turn over sometime in the future, which could lead to more delays. and by the way, once these records are turned over, you can be sure the defense is going to say, well, this raises a whole new set of issues. so we have to file more motions and asked for more delays. this is a embarrassment to the law enforcement community and the only beneficiary is donald trump. >> wow. >> margaret? >> yes. i came kept waiting for you to play messi and y, but you're just too polite. i

mean, i did texas the former sdn, why prosecutor earlier, when i said to you guys, screwed this up, right? >> you said? yes and yes. i mean, it was all on background. of course. i mean, how can >> they screw up a case which you understand our eyes are wide open here. this is not like, you know, you share them immediately? this is relevant. i don't can i get that, but my not uncommon prosecutors approaching each other with answering requests for documents. it usually comes at an arm's length. well, i'll think about it and when i get around to it, i'll i'll calculate as to whether or not there's a one-in-a-million chance i might need these documents for my own case. and if there is, you're never getting them. so that's the sort of reluctance that goes into these requests. it should never have happened in this this case. i absolutely agree with this, but here there's a word for that policy. it's bad, bad policy to have prosecutors fighting with each other and not cooperating with

each other when that is was there an attitude at the southern trypsin of new york where they thought, oh, this bragg case is thin girl and you don't have to i can't i cannot imagine that that they wouldn't weigh in on somebody else's case, what they would do, maybe say, maybe we still have a strand of this investigation that's open. we're not going to turn this over for some reason that they have as of this case embarrasses them to some degree great. right. here's alvin bragg, basically making a case that they walked away from that does not shroud them in prosecutorial aggression and glory, which is where they prefer to be. >> so the response to that is to not give over evidence which makes them look even worse. first, i mean, that's and that's why i don't think that that was the reason. i mean, you're going to turn it over now in response to a subpoena, it's just going to look worse. i can't imagine they made that deliberate decision not to turn it over beforehand, but we'll maybe we'll know more when they show morgan for the former president. this is a huge political one. >> delay, delay when, when, when this, function and it

feeds into all the theories, all the, all the fake news and conspiracy there as it is winding up anyway. i mean, the truth is though this isn't the case, which i mean, we know this isn't the case when i went to trial that was going to be the case that that is at least from a political perspective, the one is going to help the opposition are people who are concerned about trump returning to the presidency really make the political argument that like this, he shouldn't go back to the presidency because of a business misdemeanor that was worth about $130,000. i mean, that's not the case. it's the case where he took secret documents and top secret documents and hidden them in shower in mar-a-lago illegally. that's the case. you want to litigate politically nationally in the months before and weeks before the national election. >> that's a little unfair to the manhattan da's case. i mean, the manhattan da's case, at least the way they're putting it is that the reason all of this money went to stormy daniels was to hide stuff from the voters on the eve of the 2016, they're saying it's an election interference.

election interference case which makes now let's demeanor as a normal business from kit and understand that there's just no precedent for that. >> well, there's no precedent for a lot of things, donald, but it is also true that if he's convicted, he will be a convicted felon. and in america, that's usually considered not a good qualification to be president of the united states. >> do you think this is going to go to trial before the election? i do. i think this one i think will somehow staggered a trial in some time in the spring. >> and to your political point, actually, the polling bears out that if he is convicted in any trial or in any case, in all of the seven tipping point jurisdictions states that are close that will decide the election. this dramatically changes what people say pollsters, but who knows if that's true? i mean that they said that two posters when they also said they would vote for him over biden at the same time. >> we'll say margaret over. thank you. jeff tube in general for rodgers. andrew mccabe, a follow-up now to last night's reporting on sort of presidential politics in new york jets quarterback and potential rfk junior running

mate, aaron rodgers. namely that he has privately shared false conspiracy theories about the massacre at sandy hook okay. elementary school in 2012, with two people that we know of seen as pamela brown, who says that rodgers told her at a party in 2013 that the shooting was a government inside job and another who scene and gave it anonymity so as to prevent harassment, who says that? rodgers said, quote, sandy hook never happened in quote, all those children never existed did they were actors today on social media? rodgers said, quote, as i'm on the record saying in the past, what happened in sandy hook was an absolute tragedy. i am not and have never been of the opinion that the events did not take place and quote coming up a report on how a conspiracy theory in arizona left one county with five tons a ballot paper that cause taxpayers their hundreds of thousands of dollars and it's useless the question is, how did it all start? well, it was fear of bamboo laced ballots details. next

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saturday's at nine eastern last night we told you how in the wake of persistent lies about rig ballots and phony votes in 2020 election officials in >> two states have become the victims of swatting. that's when someone makes a fake call to police claiming there's been a crime at some home and then police arrive in full tactical gear. you're scaring whoever is actually in the home arizona is another state where election denialism has been persistent or donie o'sullivan tonight as well, he's been reporting on it for years tonight. he brings us the strange tale involving fears of china and supposed bamboo laced ballots here's donie >> this is a story about paper, lots and lots of paper. americans have been voting on paper for most of the country's history. but back in 2020, bizarre conspiracy theories about paper started to spread, is looking for the bamboo laced valets. >> fraudulent ballots were unloaded from a south korean plane into arizona, and it was

stuffed into the box all of that led to this five tons worth nearly $200,000 of supposedly fraud proof ballot paper it's currently lying on the floor door of this warehouse in phoenix, and no one is quite sure what to do. it. had there ever been a problem with the paper before? no. no one's ever questioned the paper. >> and then what happened >> we're getting into 2020 there's rumors of bamboo in the paper and paper from china and a lot of different just stories that circulated and so. it just kind of? went from there and people started questioning that as you were seeing that play out, what were you thinking? >> that it was knots entered? >> david stevens, he ordered the paper paper itself ballot paper. people have concerns about that. >> there were concerns, yes >> what were those concerns >> that people were making their own ballots? and then

interjecting them into the system. they were coming from foreign countries. maybe we can make our paper more secure so we would know quicker or easier if it really is a valid aerosol ballot or if it is not. >> do you personally believe the bamboo paper thing >> i don't know much about it. other than they think it came from wherever stevens is a top election official in arizona's coach he's county coachees is home to tombstone, but it's a place where election conspiracy theories won't seem to die. and 2022, election skeptics delayed certification of the midterm elections here, stevens, opponent in an upcoming election says he is part of the problem in coachees coachees has been in the headlines a lot the last few is because of elections. and mostly for bad reasons, it's an uphill battle because there are people who spread disinformation about our

elections. this theory that there's a problem with our paper. so it was a, it was a solution in search of a problem because we've never had a problem with our ballot paper. there are all kinds of safeguards and on top of other safeguards to make sure that wrong ballot paper doesn't cause any problems. ron back election services takes >> these huge rolls of paper and turn them into millions of ballots that are used across the country, but not these two roles of special ballast, guard paper ordered by davidson stevens using a stage grant >> so this is a sample of the ballot guard paper. so when you sign on a black light, you get these ub fibers that now become a parent additionally, there's what's called an ir tagging. and it's a chemical in there that when you hold a scanner over it, it'll it'll by row a ms deadline and other bureau chronic nefise has put a halt to the so-called secure paper experiment. >> so i mean it's

>> essentially $200,000 gone to waste a little less than that, but yeah. so this sounds like a bit of a nightmare. >> i pretty much yeah. i want it to be over. >> but adrian fontes, arizona's top election official says stevens experiment shouldn't have started in the first place. >> well, the economic cost of the conspiracy theories in arizona are real dollars the paper that was purchased by this one county based on these conspiracy theories that is absolutely useless. and we can even use it. they can't use it. this is taxpayer dollars down the drain based on lies. >> steven said he is not a conspiracy theorists, but in our conversation, he didn't refuse any. do you accept biden won the last election? >> the election and coaches county was fair and balanced and trump won coaches county. >> so nationally >> that's where the numbers came out. so there were there were a lot of issues but maybe

there was an explanation for them. >> i don't know. >> to be fair. there's a lot of people think 2016 was rigged. hillary clinton still thinks she won the election are they election denier's? >> democrats would say, well, look, our side didn't go attack the us capital. >> i wasn't there. i didn't go we actually had some people here that when i think they, they claimed it was peaceful. >> but the facts are clear. january 6 was not peaceful. hillary clinton formerly conceded to donald trump the morning after the election, an arizona is stuck with tons of seemingly useless paper donie donate one tiny joins us now. so this the gross taxpayer $200,000 that guy said that there were a lot of issues with the election. there weren't actually factually. >> so what can this paper be using upcoming election? is there are taxpayers just out to

$200,000. >> it looks like they're out right now. yeah. i mean, look important to stay here. there isn't an issue based off all the experts other election officials and arizona told us there's no problem with the paper. >> there's no bamboo and >> fuse pay, there's no bamboo in the paper, there's not coming out of the plains and south but so there was, wasn't a need they say for this in the first place. now there are talks about what are they going to do it this paper, there was talk about the potentially might put it out in public auction. but that the experts tell us might and itself actually creates security issues to have this sort of paper just out there in the wild in the first place. so very much truly the real physical manifestation of conspiracy theories in arizona. >> wow, don't even solvent. >> as always. thank you. appreciate it >> just ahead with >> haiti on edge and delivery food and other essentials disrupted. we'll talk with sean penn, the co-founder of the aid organization core but what his teams on the ground are seeing now did you know turbo tax now

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house this is cnn. >> our menn rents act and burn the home of haiti's national police director general. today, just one more example of violence that has been unleashed in recent weeks today, the united nations said it is reducing its number of non-essential personnel one of the aid groups work in haiti, his core which stands for community organized relief effort. it's co-founders after sean penn, who's been working in haiti since the earthquake in 2010, they do work in the capital port-au-prince, as well as other locations throughout the country. sean penn joins me now sean, what's this situation for your team on the ground in haiti >> well, since it got increasingly worse following the assassination of president luis and the gang, violence really rose up in the gangs that as you know, had long themselves has been exploited exploited the opportunity to kind of carry carry this for themselves rather than being the arm of others and then the

coalition that was put together by barbecue. the gang leader >> and it got to the point where most of our work in port-au-prince was having to beat up people were working essentially from home it was the threat level was that high in the south, in particular, some of the rural areas we were able to continue pretty much as normal >> i mean, have you you've worked in haiti now for for a long time. have you ever seen it like this before? >> no. >> i had heard about it being like this back 2003, 2004, when it had really blown up. but then there was a large disarmament and things had been sure it was still a tricky place. particular areas of the city to. be taken seriously, let's say but this became such mayhem. people who i'd known that had live their whole lives there and lived through a lot of tough times, were reporting

to me that they'd never seen anything like what this became are you there's now this kind of coalition that's supposed to be formed. and hopefully that would lead to elections and some sort of restoration of a political process that could actually help haiti move forward. i mean, are you at all optimistic in the near-term? >> well, i don't know if optimistic is the word that i would use, but i am certainly not pessimistic about it because i without having the perspective of having been born and raised in haiti as a haitian it's very hard to say what they might do with this moment. now that the henry has resigned, which has been one of the big demands of the gangs. this the things have calmed down. we may actually be able to gear back up been to an operating mode and some of the

people, people who certainly oppose the gangs are giving credit now to the fact that it was the gangs that were able to do this thing that so many wanted to have done. now, if that means that haiti can look at it as a new beginning, then i would hope that the united states can look at it as new beginning and canada and france, and all of those three in particular, so that we, for the, maybe for the altogether, for the first time, listen, listen to what the haitians, how they want to do it and what they need but i do think it's the kind of culture that can come to some kind of truth and reconciliation. >> as you mentioned, your organization core is still a blob, right? and other parts of haiti out in the countryside and other in other cities, just not as much in port-au-prince as you were before. what kind of work are you still doing there well, everything from agricultural products to food security programs. a lot of

shelf shelter programs walsh programs. >> we >> diversified base it's done what the community leaders in the area where we work have partnered with us to do. and we always stay there with a hand in disaster relief. should terms of flooding or storms and that sort of thing. and education is i think only now again, going to be a principal part of what we do there in terms of the biggest needs right now, what, what are some of the biggest concerns sean? >> well certainly security. and that's something that i've taught. i've taught haitians that who are not looking to have foreign troops come in as peacekeepers. let's say, and create another minus problem but are looking for the training of their police, the resourcing of their police >> and then >> just as significant as the