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call us now well it's full speed ahead for donald trump's historic criminal trial. >> is it a >> titanic moment in the making? >> i'll explain also tonight. so many questions about this trial and how it will all work on monday. i'll be taking your calls and your questions live in just a few moments. plus our court of public opinion takes on one of the hottest topics in america today, dei has gone too far or not far enough >> the debate tonight, i'm laura coates live >> all right. now we're just three days the way donald trump's hush money trial as it's often called, gets underway on april 15. it will share a page in the history books alongside something that happened 112 years ago on the very same day yes. what you see

i kept we've got the same day. >> but the >> titanic, it was considered unsinkable. the biggest, the best, the most luxurious sound familiar. it was not just unsinkable, it was unthinkable until the moment that tetanic ran up against that iceberg and sank on, you guessed it. april >> 15, but instead of icebergs, donald trump has been navigating indictments and now he's coming up against one that could threaten to sink his presidential campaign. his criminal trial in new york. and remember he's gotta get off the campaign trail and sit in that courtroom. and with three days to go, it looks like well, it's full speed ahead. >> judge. juan merchan >> tonight, going out team trump's latest attempt to delay the trial of what they now claim is excessive pretrial publicity, which by the way, maybe the first and only time that all trump is ever objected

to publicity. let's remember what this is all about. >> an alleged scheme and >> 2016 to pay off adult film star and director stormy daniels to stop her from speaking publicly about what she says. when does it a fair with one trump years before you'll hear it called a hush money trial hi, all but the charges are really about as a state falsifying business records to cover up the payments which are felonies. trump has pleaded not guilty. he has completely denied the affair ever took place. and tonight he announced that he would testify in that trial, though i mean, it remains to be seen whether he actually would take the stand eventually meanwhile, he is making it very clear that he is focused on the jurors who have his fate in their hands. >> jury selection is largely luck >> it depends who you get >> well, now i want to bring in

renato mariotti, a former federal prosecutor and host of the it's complicated pod gas, also with us now, mark is childress, former january 6 committee investigative counsel. gentlemen, i'm glad you're both here. >> okay. he's calling a little bit of luck. i mean, luck be a lady, lady justice, i guess they should say it's more than just luck though. it's also about strategy at a number of other factors were not allowed to begin with you here, here's how judge juan merchan responded to trump's request to throw out the trial based again, on publicity the way he cited trump's two former new york trials, saying, quote, he was personally responsible for generating much, if not most of the surrounding publicity with his public statements. so is there anything at this point now we're not oh, first while left for trump to try to do at this point to stop what's happening on monday >> well, i certainly wouldn't put anything past trump. he's very creative in terms of finding ways to delay a legal

proceedings. but i just don't see it happening, laura, i really think we are full steam ahead on monday to use your term. and that's really something because recently there has been a heck of a lot of delay in all these legal cases against trump and now for the first time we're going to see the criminal trial. former president. >> how about the publicity statements he's making? i mean, the idea that it's its core. he's trying to suggest he couldn't possibly get a fair or non-bias jury, right. if that's why it's the publicity issue is a problem. for him >> i'm not going to delay the trial. he can make those arguments. it's smart for him to make those arguments. the judge is correct that he is partially to blame for that because he's generating a lot of that publicity through is constant messaging about this island, making that the center point it is campaign. >> the >> reality is that regardless of what juror has heard about a case, as long as they testify

on cell the judge that they can be fair and the judge believes that in credits that the judges is generally going to allow that to go forward and it's not going to be reversible on appeal >> mark is let me turn to you here because trump is also saying tonight that he wants to testify, wasn't it this the testifying replying. >> yeah. i would test if i absolutely it's a scam. it's a scam that's not a trail. that's not a trend, that's a scam. >> walking as jury selection begins, yeah, new york. >> well jury selection is largely luck. >> it depends who you get. >> it's very unfair that i'm having a trial there >> all right. luck if you're de bragg marcus, would you want to see trump on the stand? >> yes. i mean, it's like christmas day for any prosecutor when a defendant wants to expand, if we're being honest, especially when they have a public record of what former president trump has of talking in public and making

statements that aren't 100% factual. so i think the attorney the de a bragg what would be excited for the former president? then at the testify. and i think this is part of the playbook that trump always uses, that he always says he wants to talk. or he wants to go out and tell the truth. he he said he wanted to talk to the january 6 committee. we gave him a subpoena to come talk. he never came and talked. and we saw how the former president de, when he took a stand just a couple of weeks ago and a monkey got another trial. wright didn't go so well for him and said, look, if you're if you're de a bragg or any other attorneys working on this case, i think you are licking your chops, but that the opportunity of the former president to take the stand because you have so much material to be able to impeach him with entered into really undermine his credibility for truthfulness, which is the key. if you have a defendant testifying i mean, when you say impeach, people think about the political part, you're talking about impeaching. maybe i can point out why you are not telling the truth in front of a jury to undermine your credibility in the courtroom are not allowed >> yeah. are once i get a lot

blurry face are expected to actually testify in this case. and one of them, michael cohen speaking to politico about testifying as this quote, i'm not even expected to be one of the first witnesses. i'll probably be more like in baseball cleanup of like a fourth or fifth batter, they're going to keep me on that stand for as long as they possibly can trying to discredit me. i want you both to weigh into this, but i'm going to ask you this. we're not. >> does it make sense? you to have cohen as one of the later witnesses to testify >> yes. so usually if you're a prosecutor, you want to put your most problematic witnesses in the middle of the case >> jurors usually >> pay the most attention to what happens at the very beginning and at the very end. so you want to get up and get off to a very solid but start to your case. you don't want michael cohen and scathing cross-examination. it'd be the first thing that they see about your case and the last thing that before they go into the jury room and close and have closing arguments, you want that to be solid as well. you don't want your case to end on

a bad note. so usually you're flipper or wherever the question will witnesses and their a lot of material to work with in terms of michael cohen, you put him right in the middle of the case and clean up is pretty much in the middle of a batting orders. that's about right we'll just for the record on cnn, laura coates live is the closer. >> thank you very much. mark is i want to ask you this about this theory from former federal prosecutor on kush khardori. he writes this, the trump team could quote ask the judge to give the jury the option of convicting him on lesser misdemeanor offenses instead of that felony counts that have actually been brought by manhattan district attorney alvin bragg and his team of prosecutors. is that a legitimate strategy to you >> i think it's a little a legitimate strategy and something that defense counsel frequently do. i mean, i saw it in my experiences when when i was prosecuting cases, was that a lot of times if the evidence was strong, you would see defendants argued for the lesser included charge as you just said in here, that would just be falsifying the records to defraud rather than

falsifying the records to aid or conceal another crime such as a campaign finance laws or tax laws. and so look, i think it could be smart because anytime you can bring those charges down to a misdemeanor versus a phelie that's mark play. but the former president has a different calculus here where he may be looking just to not have any type of state conviction attached to his name at all. and so it'll be interesting to see what path he takes, but i think for the most ordinary defendants, they would probably go for that lesser included an argue that rather than face the felony conviction, don't forget the judge did not bring the charges. it's really the prerogative of the prosecutors. they have to have some buy-in to this as well. we're not marcus stick around because there are a lot of questions about this trial and tonight, we're doing something a little bit different. we're going to answer them live, not just from our different discussions and people have just seen, but your questions so if you want to participate, just go to cnn.com slash trump trial. questions. you fill out the form you type

in your question there and then we'll reach out to hedge a call in as the trial unfolds. let's go to our first color of the night. we've got james from dublin, ohio. james, what is your question? >> thank you for the opportunity. laura. my question is will trump be present during voir dire >> that's a good question, and i'll take the first evidence. so in a criminal case, james the person who was the defendant must be present in the state of new york. and so this is a part of the trial of why dear process yes, it get off of the campaign trail and be present for the duration of it. now, how long it takes will be anyone's guess, but high-profile trial in particular, it can be lengthy to try to get that final 12 plus alternates to sit and have that unbiased view from both the prosecution and the defense side. so it'll be very telling how long he is there, ultimately let's, go to our next question here. we've got chris from grand rapids, michigan, chris, what's your question? >> good evening.

>> thanks for taking my question. i'm wondering if trump is convicted. what is his most likely sentence? >> yeah, that's a great question. i'm going to have marcus. why don't you focus on that one as well? what is your reaction >> that's the question, right? his most likely it was the punishment, i believe what it said or sentence. but i think it would be a comb probation or something of that nature, or you could look at the charge here. there's no victim per say it's not a violent crime. the former president doesn't have a history of criminal convictions here. so i think it's more realistic if you look at how courts wouldn't typically rule on these type of white-collar cases where you're looking at maybe home confinement or probation of some period of time plus you got to consider he's a former president, so there might be some legit just to go actually not might there will be some logistical concerns with putting him in jail per say. so that's what i would think would be the likely sentence. >> i agree. i also remember the maximum penalty for each of the

charges and things like four years. but new york caps everything to 20 years. and so if he worked in extend all the counts facing more than a decade okay. but as mark as talks about the genetic, consider a number of factors including including their criminal history. and of course, the practicality of what you would do in the equal treatment of the law to have somebody clicks of a crime, not serve time. if others in that titian would, and being the president united states, there's a lot of ifs there and he's got the presumption of innocence so far. alyssa from marijuana, michigan, what's your question >> hi. thank you. laura, can trump's attorneys delay the trial by claiming all candidate jurors are biased during jury selection hey, that's a great question. alysa, and certainly he has had a field de, in all the different motions that he has filed trying to delay it but today is friday at the end of friday, this jury selection will start on monday. that's not opening statements. remember? >> that's the jury selection. so he could still have some bites at the apple potentially to try to suggest he wants to delay hey, we're not a what do

you think >> yeah. i don't think he's going to be able to delay the trial a attacking particular as amongst a jor. he could for causwhen they'rejuro anerinquesons ring voir dire. but if the judge disagrees, they'll have to use one of his ten preempt jury challenges, one of his ten strikes to get a juror off. and i don't really see any way in which you'll be able to use that as a method of delay. >> remember for cars, right, we're not is something that is legitimate reason to show to fit that the person could not follow the law, but the peremptory could be for any reason they want on both sides. right. could be the only way you looked at them. they don't like your t-shirt that de that could be something they could use as long as it's not for illegitimate purpose, like race or gender, or otherwise, right? >> absolutely exactly. what we'll see, how that turns out. we've got more questions, catherine. katherine, what is

your question? where are you calling from >> redwood valley, california >> a wonderful what's your question, catherine >> hey, tj trump is allowed to appeal each and every decision. is this normal procedure for any defendant >> we are seeing in real time but what a lot of people don't always experience. and that is at a defense counsel will zealously tried to defend their client based on the motions and trying to do everything they can to avoid a trial or to get the case dismissed outright. and so you are seeing a lot of this come to fruition. the number of similar though, and redundant motions marcus, i think is really telling here what's your take >> i >> think look, it's the former >> president as filing these motions. and so there is a lot of attention and probably patients given by the core for each of these motions where in real practice with other defendants and might just be ruling on the papers or judge

might just reject the motion from the bench and just say simply motion denied. i think because it is former president trump and this is such a high stakes trial, you're seeing a lot of due care given to each motion, even though it is ultimately denied. >> i think that's a great point. >> and now let's go to tom from raleigh, north carolina, the research triangle of the united states. they say, what's your question >> oh, thank you. a prosecutors able to question stormy daniels about personal physical aspects of their alleged affair, such as physical features and he could identifiers to dispute trump's claim that he didn't have sexual relations with her it seems to me that the more ironclad proof for the affair it is, the more it demonstrates premeditation and attend and falsifying records and covering up that's a great point. it's time it was on the view recently listened to what she had to say, by the way, about being ready to testify to these different aspects of it

>> i'm absolutely ready. i've been ready. i'm hoping with all of my words that they call me because as i showed on the stand against my glove and addi no one i don't. need someone to speak for me and i relish today that i get to face heavens and speak my truth >> well, i'll be curious to see how much the judge allows at these questions. remember, every question has to be wade, which is called the probative versus prejudicial value and probative really meaning as it go to the heart of the matter, the crimes, the allegations since that are actually before this jury. while we all would like to hear the salacious, what may we all would not like to hear the salacious details is up to you. the idea that the judge will have to really tow the line to suggest and confirm that this is actually about the case. and there also could be arguments made that the prosecution would have enough evidence to support their claims even separate and apart of the actual allegations of an affair were true or not it seems to me the closer you have to focus on if you are the defense or prosecution on proving an affair, the further away you are from the false

vacation of business records, although it does have what they call probative value with respect to what the motivation for paying her would be but if the allegations alone would be enough to suggest the payment would be necessary perhaps that's enough for the judge to let it all in. we're not a market. thank you for helping to answer these viewer questions and thank you to everyone who called in real really provide provoking questions. i love that you've done. so if you have a question, you'd like us to answer on the upcoming trump trial less and we'd love to hear from you. just submit your questions at cnn.com. slash trump trial questions that was really fine to talk to all of you from across the country >> hey, it may >> be the issue that president biden is hanging his camp and paying on, and his vp is on the front line on the abortion battle tonight, taking aim at well, donald trump trump wants us to believe he will not sign a national ban enough with the

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today, i'm >> evan perez and washington. >> and this is cnn >> it's one of the biggest flashpoints in the 2024 election is playing out in a split-screen former president trump and vice president kamala harris addressing abortion head-on, trump saying that a federal abortion ban is no longer needed. but harris warning arizona voters don't be hoodwinked we don't need it any longer because we broke roe v. wade and we did something that nobody thought was possible. we gave it back to the state. you have some cases like arizona that went back to like 18, 64 or something like that. and a judge made a ruling but that's gonna be changed by government.

they're going to be changing that. i disagree with that >> and now trump wants us to believe he will not sign a national ban enough with the gas lighting. he basically wants to take america back to the 1800s >> so who to believe? >> well, i'm in trump's track record on abortion has been anything but predictable, shifting more than what it doesn't time over the past 25 years. and trump today was asked this over the last few decades, mr. president, you have both configure yourself pro-choice and pro-life. which one? >> but you know exactly which one it is >> thing is you didn't actually say which one it is and there are questions about which one it is. hence, the question that was asked. >> i want to bring and cnn political >> commentator van jones and cnn senior political commentator, scott jennings. gentleman wears why i already see van shaking his head and i

see scott leaning in with a smirk this is about to be good. let me start with you. scott a second here because that wasn't actually a hard question to answer. and he danced around it. i mean, can you have it both ways? and what is the answer? >> well, yeah, you can. i mean, joe biden is headed about 40 ways in his career. has guy has been on every side of this issue to everybody's worried about donald trump's position. but joe biden has had a shifting position here. >> i think trump truthfully, >> trump's telling us the truth about the national ban issue and, harris is not being truthful. here's why there is no chance the united states senate could ever muster 60 votes for any kind of abortion legislation of any kind. and so the reality is all of this is going to take place in the states just as trump has said. and that's what we're seeing play out right now. so i'm not surprised to see the biden campaign using it. it's the only issue in which they have an advantage over trump. they've lost every other issue, but the truth is, there is no national regime coming. there was no national ban. there is no restoration of roe versus wade as biden has promised everything that's

going to happen is going to happen at the state level. >> what's your take? >> good, try, good try. i appreciate you try it. first of all, trump was tap dancing on banana peels, bobbing, weaving. i mean, he looked terrible. you'd looked like the defendant in chief, once again, and kamala harris looked like a prosecutor in chief. if i hope people will we'll, search. for that speech. she was fantastic and she was factual and she whipped him, she spanked him. and here's reality donald trump doesn't have to go through the congress. he could appoint somebody to be the head of the fda that just bands all of the medical abortion pills and kill it that way, you can and not trust donald trump on abortion. you can trust the biden harris regime on abortion. it's really, really clear. but if you want to see the split screen, watch donald trump's completely ridiculous conference today, trying to have it every which way, but loose and watch kamala harris

press the case kamala harris was fantastic. he's the prosecutor in chief today and downs droplet terrible >> well, let me ask you, here's a split screen by the way, while we're on this, a split-screen, maybe at a debate on a debate stage. i mean, a lot of people we all know that we've become a costume and a presidential election year to seeing there the trump campaign is calling for much earlier debates between trump and biden. you see the calendar as it's set right now increasing the number of face offs between the two before election day. is that a fair request got to have that happen? >> i don't know if we need any more debates. i certainly wouldn't be opposed to it. i don't know if we need them. i do think they need to be earlier, so i agree with that. i think if you're going to have a month or six weeks, or eight weeks of voting or whatever it is people want these days, you have to have these things earlier. i mean, now you have these debates in october and a lot of people have already voted certainly, most people have already made up their mind so i would wholeheartedly support moving up the debates

in the calendar to give the american people the chance to see these two guys debate each other before anybody has a chance to cast a vote. >> well, i mean, i wonder in your opinion, are these debate's still as necessary. are they still? i had they been rendered obsolete and some are second, we obviously know that biden is yet to commit to debating trump. he hasn't ruled it out. he's saying it in march. it depends on trump's behavior, which you might take issue with it. or you didn't debate, or you're not going to debate mr. president. but let me ask the question. is, is it? beit as important as it once was >> it's hard to know, but if i were biden, i'd say, listen, donald trump has a policy of not debating republicans so i'm not going to do it either. i mean other words, donald trump didn't debate a single human being. there are a bunch of people ran against him. he didn't wanna show up for debate joe biden actually has a real job called running the united states trump's job is just going to go to court, trying to go to prison. both there might be a little bit busy to do a whole bunch of extra debates. i hope they do debate, but it's part of,

it's going to be such a circus of the last time donald trump and debated one of the times he showed up, he was full a covid act like a lunatic. so you can imagine why that walk down memory lane. i mean, i just want to remind people because they have debated before. i don't want to cut you off, but just listen to this, how it went last time good question >> justice >> left. would you who is on your list? you this when you write, gentlemen, i think he pack the court not going to give a look both of. you. i mean, i see the reactions on your basis. let me ask my question again differently. it's got do we need that again >> i do think. we need these two guys need to debate each other. they need to show the american people some engagement here and in the last election, i thought biden won the first one, probably the second one, trump, i think one the third

one. but this time around their four years older than they were i think we need to see them together. it makes a lot of sense. >> man, what do you think >> i like? again, i think it's >> five than debate probably once would be enough i guess. i mean, the last time don't drop me. not only these show up screaming, yelling like a lunatic. he also was full of covid kinda puts it, people sick, almost kill chris christie. i mean, i can understand why of your drawing all right. i run a country you made that want to be in a room with this guy but i'm sure they'll get get in there everybody will underestimate joe biden. they think he's going to go in there. he's going to pee on himself. he's going to fall over dead and biden will do a great job then trump will be his normal self. and then we'll move on from it. but because that was five, six times is that is that the that's what always happens? that's what always happens is people say, oh, biden is going to do so terrible. he can barely walk, is republican set him up perfectly by lowering the bar and then he goes and does great. and then we all applaud and move on. i'm saying, i think it's perfectly

fine to do one or two, but i don't think we need a bunch of them. i think trump is just doing that to try to prosecutors idea that biden can't see a kid and stand up to them. it's a part of trump's psychological warfare is not a real plan. >> what whenever it happens, i need both you doing play by play. i want the camera on your faces for the entire thing. i need a lot of names to come out of it. van jones got jenny well, here's a big question that might be debated and is continuing to debate what is diversity, equity and inclusion and why do people find it? so divisive? up next, a debate over whether dei has gone too far and what are court of public opinion there they are, thinks about all of it we create factory great visual solutions to perfect >> your process that's sides make >> your statement. >> now, adt professionally

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slash shave to claim your $7 trial by more than liebermann at the pentagon. >> and this cnn >> well, now returning to our own court of public opinion are virtual courtroom. where are in studio audience will weigh in on the big questions of the de tonight one of the hottest topics and businesses,

legislatures, and college campuses all across this country, three letters, d, e, short for diversity, equity and inclusion. now you've probably come across it at work, or maybe in school in 2023, 52% of employed uadults said they have had de a trainings or meetings at work. we do here at cnn as well, of course, and critics call dei discriminatory. >> they say >> nothing button attempt to solve discrimination against people of color by discriminating against other groups, particularly white americans but supporters say dei, which has been around for decades, is being weaponized politically and misrepresented since 2023, 80 anti-dei bills targeting programs at colleges have been introduced in 28 states and in congress eight have been signed into law in states like texas and also florida. well, tonight the question for our court of public opinion has dei gone too

far? >> we'll hear >> from coleman hughes, the host of the conversations with coleman podcast and the author of the end of race politics. also here, sophia nelson, they seen an opinion n contributor ad the author of e pluribus, one, reclaiming our founders vision for united america, then our audience will weigh in. this is diverse group of everyday americans meeting tonight for the first time the share their opinions with each other and you and i'm as interested as all of you are too here, just what they have to say. let's begin our conversation now with those who are going to argue both sides of the position, we begin with, you both how do you define dei coleman? >> yes. so dei in the past ten years, it's not really your father's dei it's an ideology that is new, which divides the world into a press groups and oppressor groups. and it says

whites and jews are oppressor groups blacks, hispanics asians, depending on the day. and it judges you by your group membership, promotes race-based policies like affirmative action over race-neutral policies, and does not tolerate dissent. it considers any disagreement to be off-limits. so this is what has crept out into dei departments in colleges and corporations over the past ten years. and what you're seeing in the recent backlash is really a backlash against the people who enforce this particular ideology on sectors of the american people public. >> sophia, how you define it dei, diversity, equity and inclusion is i think something that as he says, probably in the last ten years has absolutely overreached but ai edits core. everybody's for diversity, everybody's for inclusion but nobody wants to deal with that word, equity and that's what this is really about from a historic point of view, whether you're dealing with affirmative action and

where we've come from there as bill clinton once famously said, menn, don't end it, that's how i feel about dei. we have to deal with this restorative justice, peace i do agree with coleman that what has happened unfortunately, on college campuses in particular is it has become a very rigid set of rules, statements, and policies that if you move left or right in those and you're not locked step in line. you'll find yourself in a lot of trouble and we know that i experienced that firsthand. so i sell that to say that i think i really want to focus on the equity piece of it because diversity and inclusion is the >> but if it's forced, you've kind of missed the point. and

>> so the question say you're a corporation, right? and you want more racial diversity. the question is, how do you get that? do you get that in a way that is consistent with merit-based hiring for for instance, by just casting your net much wider in terms of job applicants. that's totally healthy that's a good thing. or are you doing this thing where you say, well, we need a black person or hispanic person for this job. so we're going to grab this person regardless of whether they're prepared for this job, right? that's too much of what dei has been. so someone like roland fryer, who's a harvard economist heat what he does is he actually looks at corporations, gathers data on them, and tells them statistically whether they have a bias in one direction or the other really legitimate feedback about where they don't have biases, where they do have biases. and that actually allows you to act in an evidence-based way. that's really i should be but d either way you just described it, presumed it's a quota as opposed to an ideology which is it? >> i have an issue with this word merit based because the presumption is is that every white male that has a job in the fortune 500 gut there because a merit or every white

male or white female as it were in the corporate sector, in the academic sector, they all got there because they it worked qualified and had merit. but anybody with my skin color or with another color or from another group, somehow they took something that was somebody else's and they didn't have merit. that's a problem. you got to look at the data he's right about what he says in the sense of how we cast those nets but it goes back to restorative justice, as i said, and restored with equity, when you have systemic racist structures for 300 years of slavery, 100 years of jim crow, it is fool's gold to think that in 50 years you're going to eliminate all that and everything's going to be equal. and that's the problem i have with this debate. we're ignoring history we're ignoring data. or they were confusing issues. dei, once you get to the point where someone is 25, years old, and you're deciding whether to hire them or not. that's not the moment to introduce race-based decision-making the problem you're talking about is completely real, but it has to

be dealt with at the 0218 level k through 12 education has to be improved. we have to level the playing field at that level rather than tilt the playing field at the top level and imagine that we're doing something beneficial. the problem starts when you're a kid, right? it starts with energetic inter-generational poverty, bad schools. and that's where the focus should be. and then once people are adults, we should judge them without regard to race it's diversity synonymous with class >> look at the wealth gap in this country again, the data doesn't lie >> african americans will take 200 years to catch up as of today, with just the basic wealth gap of savings, investment, ownership of homes, whatever, on the most base level 200 years to catch up and we're going to talk about k through 18 and you see what i mean, it doesn't work real quick. >> i want to hear from both you and your concluding statements about how you course correct. based on your positions, coleman >> so of course, correcting for dei, i think it looks very much like what someone is, something

like roland fryer is doing. if you're a corporation, you want to have a dea program shore, but it should not be an ideological litmus test. it should not be signing a loyalty pledge to apply for a job which is at many universities, it should be a serious evidence-based look at the composition of your company to see if you have a bias in one direction or the other or one of many directions, do it seriously or don't do it at all? >> sofia, we have to rethink and reimagine and i want to be inclusive. i think white men have to be at the table. i think all groups have to be at the table because we're not talking e pluribus unum out of many one. we're not solving this problem together very fascinating arguments from both of you just now coleman into thea. thanks for making the arguments you've made. i do wonder what everyone is thinking stick around, but we're going to turn to the jury and get them to weigh in on what they've heard and what they think about it. back in a moment. >> smerconish tomorrow with nine easter >> our pharmacy has been in

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>> oh, we're back in our court of public opinion. we've been discussing diversity, equity, and inclusion programs across the united states. we just heard a pretty lively discussion with coleman hughes and sophia nelson's. now i want to bring in our group of everyday americans who've all had different perspectives on dei and see what they heard today. >> and we >> begin with you all and thank you for being here. >> i wonder what >> arguments stood out to you on either side of the issue what's your thought during number two? >> so sophia mentioned inclusion. i think that truly is a very complicated topic, right? but within occlusion, you can hire as many minorities as you want. but if we're not getting a seat at the table, it doesn't really matter. so i think it relates to concentrate on inclusion as really the basis for what we're looking for. >> you're not i think that inclusion can encompass many different things as well as sexual orientation or disability to i think those are really vital >> voices to bring to the table. just like you're number two was talking, are they part of the conversation?

>> i had some questions about her description of marriage. she had some criticisms of the way that maybe somebody of color is seen as only have gotten that job because they are a person of color. >> what are your questions you can ask them here. >> i am very curious then what is the point of the merit system? right? it seems like when you start asking those questions that actually is what puts those thoughts into people's head well, if we are requiring people to have a quota and we're rejecting the merit system. is that not then? >> by? >> enlarge, forcing people to then think those, those thoughts, i am 1,000% for merit because everything i have gotten has been because of merit. what i don't appreciate are the arguments at what i've gotten is because i'm black and i'm female and i don't deserve it and i took someone else's spot who did deserve it. that's the discussion. in the public forum right now. and that's divisive. it's harmful and it's ugly. and i think there's a presupposition their

laura, that it belongs to somebody else. it's just like when people say i'm taking my country back from who, what does that even mean? what are we talking about? that is there's something to that. >> i think we have to be honest about the fact that dei programs and affirmative action have been a rejection of merit in favor of race-based admissions in some cases and higher, i mean, this was proven in the case of harvard that your race was equivalent to several hundred points on the sat and that if the same candidate, if they for asian would not get in as opposed to if they were black. so i don't that may have affected me and my life too. i have no idea if there's certain jobs that i might i might have gotten because i was black and i don't think the employer, would ever tell me. and this is one of the signals that we're uncomfortable with it is that we can admit that it's even a real thing. >> well, the idea of their for reaction discussions and the plus factors, the evolution of these case-law is certainly something still in the public square. what do you think >> well, i think a lot of what

coleman said made sense to me. and the one of the questions i had was if we have dei now why do we also have discrimination laws on the books? what are those doing and what's the purpose of having both redundancy to you on a university campus? i'm very suspicious if the d yeah, office didn't come to college tomorrow, would anyone notice how long would it take for anyone to notice that they weren't there? i know what the professors do. i know what the admission admissions department does. i know what the administrators do. i know what the janitors do. i'm not really sure what the dei office does other than get involved in the occasional cancellation, >> the reason you have dei goes back to what i said at the beginning, you are trying to put together a systemic structure in place in your company in your college wherever it is to say, we're not doing well, bringing in people of color or lgbtq plus or whatever we wanted diverse student body, we wanted diverse company. so we're trying to put

in structures into place that welcomed those groups and make them feel welcome. >> let's expand the concept of dei beyond just the idea of hiring and the actual composition of the student body. or of course, the job for us. and also talk about the idea that education that's different curriculum and beyond that's also part of the conversation when you were hearing discussions about merit or carrying discussions about quotas as it's been articulated, what was your act? action >> in dei someone always loses. it seems like, i mean, asian-americans brought that affirmative action cases supreme court because they were losing out on scholarships and positions at incredible universities. and so that to me seems like the hardest part of dei is that someone decides that someone loses and even for in women's sports, right women lose in favor of trans, women earning those trophies. and so that's i think the hardest part for me. >> so you all see dei as synonymous with affirmative

action is that right? and hearing the arguments being raised, i don't know. >> i i thought affirmative action was much more codified in law and dis much more of a pr campaign or a way to identify some program with a university or workplace i disagree with that because there's a case in florida where were they took de the campus so many students felt like they weren't include anymore in the optics of this losing that it taking it off campus so many students were upset about that. that it was a place for them to feel comfortable when they went to the da's office and i was gone. and so those students feel rejected feel left out. they don't feel a part of the school and more because that officers go now, do you see the idea of dei that someone always must lose? you heard juror number three. >> i don't think that someone always must lose, but i think that there's only things to gain, especially what juror number two is saying about students having that place to go to to feel included did i

was recently part of a college campus? i did see how how much that really impacted all of my fellow peers and how it meant a lot to them to have somewhere to go. even if it wasn't necessarily something that you could point to to say, here's a statistic here is exactly how x, y, and z this number of students benefited this way, this number of students got this many jobs because of what we have been providing them with. it's more of the feeling that they got and i think that that mental benefit was is there a way for dei to be corrected or improved? based on your understanding of what it is. >> well, certainly we shouldn't be having trainings that works work where they say that retraining people that had to be less white >> coca-cola hadn't

>> example couple of years ago. so certainly that it makefile people feel good that did not make you feel included >> so i've been several trainings my corporate and i've ever heard of him say it being lived i think that's necessarily what is the training is meant to be. i don't think there wouldn't >> be certainly, but coca-cola did do that. so we shouldn't, we shouldn't have that anywhere. >> let me ask me go down the line with each of you here and just ask, do you feel i know it's self reflection that you have an understanding of what dei is for across the board. yes or no >> yes. >> yes >> yes >> i know. i'm i'm hesitating because i think the purest form of dei is so different than de in practice and so the difference to you di, in its purest form, i think is a lot of what sophia was saying. and i think that the purist ideals are exactly what america is all about >> and

>> in practice, it is so bastardized and has become harmful and uses a weapon for mortality continues. do you feel you are sending over dei is i don't know because it seems like it's changing and shifting every day in the news and it seems like it was branded does sound like something people love, would love to support. however, it when put in practice, i don't know if it's what people what people want. >> i'm really fascinated by all of your takes on this and the infusion of how the media and society, corporate america, and the educational institutions all weigh in on all that. thank you. all of you. and thank you to again, coleman hughes and sophia analysis, especially things, of course, to our jurors and the court of public opinion. hey, if you'd like to be a juror in our next korda public opinion. just get in touch with us by filling out the form you can access by scanning the qr code that's on your screen, or you can email us at lara codes, jury at cnn.com thank you for watching. >> our coverage continues

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