recently put in about 10,000 additional marines into afghanistan, and most of them are in the south. as it show on the map and this is the capital of cab balance and down here in helmand is where they're focused. i'll take you where the fighting is going on. you can see specifically in this area of garmsir as well as khan neshin. this cuts through there, the helmand river valley. this is the most concentrated area for opium growing, and we expect significant combat challenges with respect to the taliban who have been there and we haven't been able to both clear defeat them and clear the area. this extra footprint of marines will allow us to not just secure the area for the afghan people but hold it, so we can develop

it and tart to move in the right direction economically and from a governance perspective. >> in terms of resistance the marines have faced in the early da days, is it what you expected? are they melting into the countryside and hiding because they know you're there? >> it's what we expected. there's been some of that. there's been tough fighting as well. all of that really ties into the examinations we had. this has been a taliban stronghold for a significant period of time. it's grown over the last two or three years. what the marines are there for is to really concentrate on that, clear that area, defeat the taliban that's there, clear it, and then hold it to, again, we can start to build. we think it's going to be a tough fight for, you know, a fair amount of time. weeks to months certainly at least. >> weeks to months. as you push in that area, one of the concerns, sir, i know you have is if you look to the south, you see pakistan and even

in the "washington post" this morning an officer said the pakistanis on that side of the border are not cooperated to the point you expect. you recently in a military briefing called pakistan a safe haven for al qaeda and the taliban. how concerned are you even if you're successful in the helmand provness if they melt across the border to pakistan, what then? >> that's a fair assessment of the concerns. we've worked this pretty hard with the afghan military leadership as well as the pakistani military leadership. the pakistan military has moved out aggressively in the last couple of months and had some successes and expressed concerns that our interaction with the taliban now down here in the south is going to push more insurgents towards -- into pakistan. so from the standpoint of both understanding what the possibilities are and the preparations, i think we're in pretty good shape. we've actually had several

meetings, tri-lateral meetings of the military leadership in both afghanistan and pakistan, but we recognize there's going to be tension and we have to work through that. >> and you talked about this, could be weeks or months for this fight. i want your assessment for the broader picture in afghanistan in the context of what i would call potentially mixed signals on troop levels in afghanistan in the last week. general jones was quoted as saying, the troops there are the troops the mission is going to get. you were quoted in "the washington post" saying if the general needs more, you can go to the president and say we need to send more. are you concerned at all there's a mixed message in terms of what it takes in afghanistan? >> i think general jones and i and the president are all on the same page in terms of what we have to do now. president obama has committed these troops. they're arriving as we speak and will through the rest of this year. general mcchris ckrichrystacchr

military leader in afghanistan, is going through a 60-day assessment. his guidance from me and from secretary gates is make your assessment, come back and tell us what you need. make sure that every troop we've got there is somebody that we absolutely have to have, and then based on your assessment, we'll look at future requirements. all of us are on the same page with respect to that view and his intent. >> one last question about afghanistan, sir. who is the enemy, and how many are there? is it taliban or a mix of taliban or al qaeda? >> what i've seen in the last couple of years is a merging of both al qaeda and taliban. it sort of gets summed of this the enemy of my enemy is my friends. we've seen leaders from these organizations move together in a federated way. in ways it's both. al qaeda is supportive of the taliban. as far as the exact numbers are concerned, it's hard to pin that

down. they're significant and growing, and it's the kind of insurgency that the additional troops we're putting there has to get at so we can actually focus on providing security. it's less about as general mcchrystal said about killing the enemy than providing security and protecting afghan civilians. that's really the thrust and what we're trying to do right now. >> i want to ask you to shift over. you have a map of iraq as well. pull that up for me. a pretty big week in iraq, the deadline on june 30th to get out of the iraqi cities. as you pull the map up now, can you play for me the video that shows our footprint before and our footprint after. >> sure, john. this is baghdad, and you can see where our footprint was. now in the outskirts here, indicated here and here, is where we've moved our forces. we really are out of the cities

now. we've moved our forces outside the main cities. you can see here outside baghdad where we have our cities, and we're in support of the iraqi security forces. big transition. we've actually been coming out of the cities for the last eight months. we're at a period of time we're in support, and we've reached agreement with the political and military leadership on how this is going to work. i'm confident in what i've seen so far, that us moving out of the cities has been a very positive step. i'm really encouraged based on what i see. >> very encouraged. we're happy to hear that, sir. i want you to listen quickly to a snippet from former vice president dick cheney. they voiced their concern that perhaps the enemy in iraq has just decided to wait it out. >> it would look like, one might speculate, that the insurgents

are waiting and as soon as they get an opportunity they'll begin to launch more attacks. i hope that's not the case. >> are you seeing any evidence of that, admiral? that they're regrouping and taking their time and waiting? >> we've expected for sometime that this is a -- in a period of transition like this the insurgents could do this. we've seen no indication that there's any -- that they're looking to or we're seeing a trend towards the kind of sectarian violence which was so prevalent a couple of years ago. we have had an uptick in some major what we call high-profile attacks, but june of this year was the lowest level of violence since the war started. i think the general has spoken out about this. he's very pleased with how this transition has started, and again, it's just five days old right now. so we're very focused on it and very aware of this period of vulnerability. up until now it's gone pretty well. >> and 130,000 roughly americans

in iraq right now, due to be down to 50,000 about a year from now and ultimately all those troops out unless the iraqis request more to stay by the end of the 2011. you mentioned it's only five days. any reason at this point to think that schedule will not be kept in. >> not that i'm aware right now. clearly we have an agreement to have all troops out by the end of 2011. the focus area now is this obviously sustaining this security and then focusing on the elections, which are the beginning of next year. that's the next really big event, and the politics associated with that are critical. most of the issues right now are for the political leadership in iraq to resolve. so we focus on the january time frame. after january we see a significant drawdown of our troops getting to 35 to 50,000 in about the august time frame, a little over a year from now. from everything i see right now, we're on track. >> admiral mullen, take a seat

and be more comfortable so we can continue our conversation. >> okay. thank you, john. >> when we come back, more with admiral mullen on the up coming trip by the president with russi russirus russ russia, and tensions with iran and whether it's time to let open gays and lesbians serve mountain military. my doctor told me something i never knew. as we get older, our bodies become... less able to absorb calcium. he recommended citracal. it's a different kind of calcium. calcium citrate. with vitamin d... for unsurpassed absorption, to nourish your bones. [chocolate squirting] [conveyor belt humming] [squirting] [conveyor belt humming] [squirting] (male announcer) something new to crave. [squirting] the cr-v from honda.

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of the joint chiefs of state of, padmy ral mike mullen. you showed us on the map what you think is the strategic situation in iraq. i want to talk about the images we saw this past week. has the united states kept that promise, they were celebrations in the street. iraqi citizens celebrates the u.s. troops moving out of the

city, many calling them occupiers. in a statement prime minister maliki focused on the iraqi government saying the united government succeeded in putting down the sectarian war threatening the unity and sovereignty in iraq. the prime minister does not thank the military in his speech. i'm wondering to the parents, the spouses and siblings of the more than 4300 americans that gave their lives so far so those people had the rights to be in the streets demonstrating, so prime minister maliki could have a government, what kind of message does it send to them? >> i've said many times i'm very proud to lead the best military i've ever been associated with in the over 40 years that i've been wearing the uniform. the 2.2 million men and women are just spectacular. their sacrifices are truly extraordinary, including those who pay the ultimate sacrifice in iraq and afghanistan.

when i look at that celebration, that's actually how i look at it. here's a couldn't two years ago was in very, very bad shape spinning out of the control, and it was really because of the dedication of our young men and women and those sacrifices that we're able to turn it around and put the country in a position to have a future that is bright and was indicated, i think, by that celebration. i know from my engagement with prime minister maliki as well as the rest of the political and military leadership in iraq, they're very appreciative of everything that we have done. >> i want to move your attention to other challenges. let's start with north korea. north korea has tested short-range missiles in recent days. a provocative act according to the white house and other governments around the world, but not the long-range missiles. do you have any indication, sir, in the intelligence they're preparing that some had said they might to test again the longer range missile, that if it's successful could reach hawaii or the west coast of the

united states? >> much of what the north korean leadership has said they would do in the past when they talked about things they would continue to execute, including the possible nook lar test or long-range missile, certainly there are possibles there. i haven't seen any indications of that in recent days, seven missiles which the leadership fired yesterday basically into the sea similar to what they did in 2006, there were -- those were violations of united nations security council resolutions. they continue to do that. they continue to thumb their nose at the international community, and i think the international community, which has been bound very tightly together to include russia and china, needs to -- and putting additional pressure on the north korean leadership, that needs to continue and those sanctions need to be enforced.

>> both you and secretary gates have spoken in recent days about conversati conversations with your south korean counterparts and chinese counterparts. there have been no military conversations with the chinese, who are in the most player and who we know sometimes don't like the united states military, the united states navy showing any muscle in their neighborhood. is that a whole in or response to this, that you're not having direct kvshconversations with t chinese? >> we've had some contact. there are differences and concerns, and what's important about all of this is we have a dialogue, we're talking so that we can move this relationship forward in a positive way and certainly have an ability to communicate so we don't miscalculate such a sensitive time and critical time in our relationship. >> you're off, sir, to russia in the day ahead for the

president's big summit there. more reductions in the arsenals of both countries on the table. there's considerable pressure on the president to get more russian help when it comes to iran, the nuclear program and several senators sent the president a letter this week saying they hope he will use his visit to moscow to express the deep concern the united states has over iran's nuclear program and make it known that russia should not expect progress on issues of concern to moscow if it does not take a tougher stance on iran. should the president in your view, sir, link progress and other issues to better russian assistance when it comes to iran's nuclear program? >> i'll let the president speak for himself. we have areas we have common interests in. iran certainly is one. obviously, the area of strategic missiles and the start of discussions that you spoke of. we've got common interests and agreement in places like afghanistan. the russians do not want to see the taliban take over

afghanistan. logistics support for afghanistan, piracy, counterterrorism, counterproliferation, all those things. we have areas we can discuss thing about the things that are very positive and we can move forward on, and included in that are discussions where we differ. >> i want to move on, sir, to an issue that comes up from time to time that's very emotional and a tough political arguments, and that is whether gays and lesbians should be allowed to everybody openly in the military. at your confirmation hearing two years ago, i want you to listen to this. you said it was the right policy to have don't ask don't tell. >> it's a policy that came in at a time -- in a time it was greatly debated at the time that it was actually put in place. i'm supportive of that policy. >> you said supportive two years ago. sir, i sat down in recent days with another gentleman who held your job, retired general colin powell who supported the policy

when it was implemented but says it should be reconsidered. leelts listen. >> well, the policy and the law that came about in 1993, i think, was connect for the time. 16 years have now gone by, and i think a lot has changed with respect to attitudes within our country, and therefore i think this is a policy and a law that should be reviewed. >> two questions, sir, and let me start with the advice you give the president. do you believe the policy don't ask don't tell should stay, and is that your advice to the president, even though that is contrary to the promise he made in the campaign? >> well, what general powell talks about is the policy and, in fact, the law. with respect to that, we clearly are carrying out both the policy and law and will continue to do that until it changes. secretary gates spoke recently about reviewing the policy to see if -- to make sure that we were executing it in the most

humane way possible. it's very clear what president obama's intent here is. he intends to see this law change. in my advice, you know, i've had conversations with him about th that. what i've discussed in terms of the future is i think we need to move in a measured way. we're at a time where we're fighting two conflicts. there's a great deal of pressure on our forces and their families, and yet, again the strategic intent is clear. if we get -- and i am internally discussing that with my staff on how to move forward and what the possible implementation steps could be. i haven't donnie kind of extensive review. what i feel most obligated about is to make sure i tell the president, you know, my -- give the president my best advice, should this law change, on the impact on our people and their

families at these very challenging times. >> i want to close on this july 4th weekend that's close to you and much concern at the penguinpenguin penguins, apenguintagon and that is the care for the wounded soldiers. you talked about this and the suicide rate is up, alcohol use is up, the divorce rate is up. you mentioned at fort hood only eight soldiers at a time allowed in the classes. what message does the president need to hear, the congress need to hear, and, in fact, the american people need to hear about what more needs to be done to make sure that these men and women coming home get everything they need? >> well, i think leaders throughout the land and throughout communities in our country need to reach out and make sure that we are meeting the needs of these great, young americans who sacrificed so much. not just the military members,

but their families. while we've made a lot of progress in the last several years, we have an awful long way to go. there's a great deal we don't know about the combat stress, posttraumatic he stress. there's a great deal we don't know about the signature wounds of traumatic brain injury, whether it's mild or severe. in fact, young people, young families want to contribute to society. they still have dreams, and those dreams include getting to school, sending their kids to school, having a good job for both members of their family, and hopefully being able to own a home someday. i think all of us in america need to pay this -- or repay this debt that they've done so much for us and do it in a way to make sure that they're in great shape for the rest of their lives. >> admiral mike mullen, thanks for spending time with us this morning. >> thank you, john. >> thank you, sir. still ahead, howard kurtz and

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here are stories breaking this sunday morning. two monorail trains crashed at disneyworld this morning. one drivers killed. they say the monorail has been shut down and the company is working with law enforcement officials to determine just what happened. officials stress no disney guests were seriously injured in that crash. an autopsy is scheduled on the body of former nfl quarterback steve mcnair. he was found shot to debt yesterday. police say he was shot multiple times including wruns in the head. a body of a young woman was found nearby with a single gunshot wound.

they're not actively looking for suspects. michael jackson fans will find out if they're going to the memorial service on tuesday will find out. officials eliminate all duplicate and suspect entries and hold a random drawing. 8,750 winners will receive an e-mail notification later today. south korea says missiles test fired by north korea could hit government and military targets in the south. they tested four short range missiles towards of sea of japan yesterday. joe biden called the missile launches attention-seeking behavior. that and much more ahead. after the break, howie kurtz and his reliable sources. my doctor told me something i never knew.

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michael jackson's death has become an absolute gold mine for the news business. days after the initial shock

wore off, the morning shows and the cable ned works led by cnn seemed to crank up the volume hire. the ratings are good, let's have more michael jackson. let's have wall-to-wall jackson. this in my view is get out of control. there have been some newsworthy developments in recent days about the will and the custody fight for his children, who is the father of two of the children. it's not the king of pop. it's his doctor at least according to unnamed sources, but much of the rest is journalists stirring the pot, cooking up angles about his use of drugs and his state of mind, anything to keep feeding the x fixati fixation. more on the investigation into the death of michael jackson. >> michael jackson's death has put a new spotlight on the use and abuse of prescription drugs. >> the pop star's father insists he and his wife will be taking care of the children. >> now to the latest on the michael jackson investigation. >> there's no debate about whether or not michael was using painkillers.

>> michael jackson's will, how much he's worth, who gets the money and one big bombshell. >> michael jackson's is not his kids biological father but we may know who is. >> there have been reports over decades that joe jackson beat the living daylights out of these kids and especially michael. >> when we come back back into michael jackson's private bedroom and what we found, a secret room. >> is this news, infotainment or pandering? don lemon, a cnn anchor reporting this story since it broke, and mere in washington david zurich for the baltimore sun. much of the day on the morning shows, cable news led by cnn this is treated as the most important story in the world. is it? >> it's the most important story for getting ratings in the world right now, and it's the summer. it's quiet, and we've probably had enough of the president for

a while because we've been georg grrged on presidential news since before the election. i am not surprise to see wall-to-wall coverage. >> don lemon, you've been out there in l.a. reporting on the story and interviewed joe jackson and the assistant chief coroner. you're doing endless live shots and devoted most of your saturday and sunday evening programming to this. don't you feel deep down this is overdoing it? >> no, i don't feel it's overdoing it. when i hear people say that, i have to be very honest with you, howie. i think it's elitist. i'm sure there was some criticism when there was the coverage of princess diana death, but i don't think this is the criticism from michael jackson. michael jackson is an accidental sift rights leader, accidental pioneer. he broke grounds and barriers in so many different realms and artistry, in pictures, in movies, music. you name it.

>> he did all those things. he also was accused of child molestation and a seriously weird person. he's been dead for more than a week, and we're still going almost wall-to-wall. >> he's been dead a week. michael jackson twice -- well, once he was acquitted of child molestation and the other time settled out of court. people involved don't believe he did it. let's put that aside. he's been dead for more than a week, and that's why this story is still front page news. it's still in the "a" block of newscasts. we don't know how he died. >> i would differ with you. i think it's the a, b, c, d, and e block. david zurich i've been saving tape for you. this is cnn coverage one day earlier this week on a number of news shows in the afternoon and evening. let's roll that. >> striking new voice in michael jackson's death with a shocking story to tell. a nurse who says that jackson repeatedly asked her about a powerful i.v. anesthesia drug.

>> tonight up to the minute developments in the michael jackson investigation. >> tonight, breaking news on michael jackson's estate and his children. >> happening now, he was in rehearsal and planning to reaffirm his claim to the title king of pop. was he ready? it depends on who you ask. >> that's one day. cnn is usually the network that exercises some restraint on these big tabloidy stories. what happened? >> howie, first of all, this may shock you, but i don't think the coverage has been excessive. when we get to the staples center on tuesday, we're going to have 12 days now. this is beyond a state funeral. >> why is it not excessive in your view? >> in pop culture, in cultural studies they say that the size of a star, the importance to the culture is in direct proportion to how they embody contradictions in the culture. nobody, not marilyn monroe or lucille ball or elvis embodies

as many contradictions as michael jackson did. he had a troubled family and childhood was not a time of innocence for him. most of the all, race. he em bodies the contradictions in race in our culture like nobody else. we can't walk away from michael, because until we resolve him for himself. of course, we're not going to resolve him, but we don't want to lelt him go until we resolve it. >> i don't think it has anything to do with resolving any conflicts whatsoever. i think there's a number of things going on here. one is he is a worldwide story. in the age of internet what we looked at is kind of the media coverage, sort of a glut the media coverage, it's not just television. the first couple days it was an internet story. you had online news organizations and including tiny ones like ours and the big ones like yahoo! had the biggest

traffic in their history on the day after michael jackson died. people around the world. that's because anybody anywhere in the world, and we were getting comments from indonesia, france, it was unbelievable. >> hold on here. the first couple of days, you know, the explosion of coverage, i have no problem. this was an unexpected death of one of the most famous and controversial people on the planet, and it was a guy whose music touched millions and all of that. >> the most famous. >> fine, once you get to day eight six, seven, eight, nine, we're awash with speculation. >> i don't think so. our lead story was iran and iraq on cnn. it's going to be that way until tuesday until this goes. it has not been the lead story every single day. >> don, if you look at the summation of the past week, certainly occasionally cnn has covered iran, occasional has covered iraq. there was a big u.s. incursion

against the taliban in afghanistan, but the lion's share of the hours and the reason you're not getting any sleep in l.a. is because it's all jackson. >> we spend lots of time covering iran and iraq. i agree we should cover those stories. this is the time and place for the michael jackson coverage. i have to say your guests are absolutely right. if you look at race, african-americans are following this coverage, 8 in 10 african-americans are tuning in not only to broadcast mediums but on twitter and facebook and yahoo! everywhere. they want to find coverage. this is the quintessential american story. >> it's a world culture story. >> he came from gary, indiana, raised poor and became millionaires and became the biggest star in the world and touched people socially and culturally and he was an accidental civil rights leader.

>> hold on. hold on. let me get control here. since don mentioned the numbers, i want to put up the poll. the pugh research poll found the coverage of michael jackson's death overall 64% say too much for all the viewers who tell me this is earth-shattering, 29% say the right amount and 3% say too little. if you go to the racial breakdown, it was an interesting split here. blacks 36% say too much, whites 70%. >> i think it's absolutely true, and 8 out of 10 americans are fouling this story very closely. howie, i think that makes an absolute difference, and i would disagree especially in connection with race so say we're playing stuff over and repeating it. this week -- one night last week i heard katie couric interviewing spike lee. it was "48 hours" and got over 8 million viewers. you say enough all right.

s she asked him about race and b.e.t. awards and jamie foxx saying michael jackson belongs to african-americans. we're having a good conversation about race. >> you had matt lauer and larry king at neverland interviewing jermaine jackson. sharon, i'll give you the floor. >> i want to make another point. that secret room was long known about and viewed and -- >> you're saying it wasn't so secret? really? the "today" show said it was. i wanted to make a different point it reminds me when john lennon died, was murdered so suddenly. i remember being a young person at that time and thinking i was surprised at the overwhelming amount of media coverage at that time. i wonder if there's a generational thing. >> that may be true. sharon, you work for "the new

york times" and worked for "the washington post." they're covering this jackson story and a lot of other things as well. the other other story near traction on the television is the tale of mark sanford and his argentinian soul mate because it involved sex. is there any way -- are we going so crazy over what you say is the cultural and political and musical significance of michael jackson if the numbers weren't big? >> no, i don't think so we would be. i think it's absolutely -- this is a ratings story. this is about business, and it's easy. it's an easy decision for every news network to make. absolutely. >> the numbers are astronomical. the answer is as sharon said, no, we wouldn't. if it weren't these numbers. in the summer you can do 8 million with "48 hours" in the summer, let's do it again tomorrow night. >> the number reflect a direct interest from the people in this

story. part of being a news organization, part of covering news is covering the public interest. >> i'm going to challenge that. here's what i see. there's no question there's public interest in this story. cnn -- >> there's public interest and the public interest, not the same. >> cnn won the first couple nights in the capable competition. i'm sure executives -- this is an presumption. let's keep doing this. numbers are really good. the breaking news banner is up there for hours. in cable if the average audience might be 1 million and suddenly 2 million are tuning in, the producers are popping champagne corks. that doesn't mean the whole country is fixated on this. judging from comments on my facebook page and elsewhere, a lot of people who really love cnn and its dedication to news who think this is just too much. >> i'm not denying that it is a business. come on, let's be real about it. i don't think any producer or reporter popped a champagne cork. that may come on wednesday when

this is all done. yes, i think that, you know, as i said, we have to realize that it is a business. had the numbers not been as much, yoonif we would have cove it had as much. you cannot deny that michael jackson is a hunl figure. >> i'm not denying that at all. >> i'm not a michael jackson sympathizer, i criticize him as much as the next guy. i believe we should tell his whole story, but at this point we have to remember a person is dead. as my mom said don't speak ill of the dead. we're remembering this person's legacy and not all the bad things about him. yes, there is a business interest in this, but we have to gauge that business interest as well with what the public is interested in. >> this is another thing. we've spent a lot of years beating up on michael jackson. i covered many aspects of beating up on him businesswise and child molestation thing. what we're realizing is he was

actually a nice person. >> a real person. >> i'm glad -- >> i can't wait for tuesday. >> i think this is a sense of him in the media of feeling badly, of regret in the michael jackson -- honestly, there is a little bit of that haze in gee he was kind of -- >> i got to stop. >> if you look at michael jackson's story, the family's story, this is a story that should be celebrated in more ways than the train he wreck way. >> i'm glad a more balanced portrait is emerging. how long will it go on at this level? >> at least through tuesday. i'm serious. i can't wait for tuesday. as a pop culture lover, this is fantastic. >> that would be tuesday of which month? thanks for joining us. when we come back, the man behind tmz which has dominated this jackson story, harvey levin is next.

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tmz the gossip website has its share of big coops, but with the death of michael jackson it's winning new respect. the website owned by cnn's parent company not only beat most of its rivals with the news of jackson's death but stayed ahead of the press pack, and even the biggest news organizations are taking notice. >> the website tmz reporting a

will is filed tomorrow. >> sources have told it an extremely powerful and dangerous drug used for surgical anesthesia was found at jackson's home after i died. >> tmz is reporting today and they've been right on a lot of stuff that debbie rowe is not the biological mother and michael jackson is not the biological father of any of these kids. >> and joininging us from los angeles is harvey levin. >> he was interviewed by night line. do you want this much respect? >> oh, howie, you're the best. >> don't you like being a rebel? >> you know, look, what i like being honestly is a journalist. and, you know, we -- the predicate of tmz is we do everything. we will do important stories, we'll do silly stories and everything in between.

we want to give people a balance and an experience, but my passion is journalism. i did it for 20 years before i did tmz. and i love, you know, getting into these stories. >> let me ask this. the tv networks were still sufficiently wary he of your operation that they didn't report when tnz said michael jackson was dead and they waited for the "l.a. times" to confirm it. did that bother you or surprise you? >> it didn't bother me, but i think it's ironic for two reasons. number one, the "l.a. times" was wrong, howie. that's what is funny. they ended up quoting a news operation that got it wrong. they said he was in a coma when he was dead. so people who followed the "l.a. times" followed them down a rabbit hole as we had already reported that he was dead. so that's number one. number two, you know, i think people are kind of like overanalyzing this a little bit. because as you know, for the last three and a half years, cnn

alone has probably quoted tmz thousands of times on numerous stories. so it's not like we've just surfaced by any means. >> journalists say they like the site, it's spicy and fun but it's gossip. you can't necessarily trust it. they don't have our standards, and to your point being around the block for a while, why didn't that attitude change after you broke the story about michael richards and his racist comedy rant and mel gibson. why has it taken a while for the rest of the media to take you more seriously? >> it hasn't. they're barsed about this one, but if you look at what they've done. we did the mel gibson story, howie, you guys and everybody quoted at tmz when we broke

heath ledger's death, you guys quoted us and everybody else did. britney's divorce and on and on and on. it's disgenerous and maybe dishonest, because if you look at it -- we embarrassed a lot of people who are way behind on this story. i don't think they should be embarrassed. it's enough to say, look, we had good sources, and everybody wanted to be careful. i think for them to say it is ridiculous, because they've been quoting us for three and a half years. >> in a way does -- >> no, no. >> let me ask the question and you can answer. in a way does tmz make some of these stories safe for the mainstream media, kind of laundering through them through customs? you published the photo of rihanna her badly bruised face. everybody else showed the picture and jumped on the story. >> well, i mean, a picture is a

picture. but, you know, in terms of other stories we do, how do they know what our news standards are? i can tell you right now, i was a newsman at cbs and nbc. our standards are tougher than there. we have the toughest news standards that you're going to find in america, including, by the way, cnn. i mean, everything we have is lawyered. everything we have is researched. we have multiple sources. we have this city wired. i mean, we have a lot of really good sources, but we have the same standard that you guys have. so the idea that it's gossip and everything else, it's not. it's a fact-based news operation that operates in the same standards that you guys do, and the fact is if that weren't the case, shame on you guys and everybody else for quoting us all the time. >> it's an interesting argument you say you have higher standards. when you were at cbs or nbc -- >> i will say not with you guys. you guys really look at things

carefully, but so are we. i've been in the local news business for many, many years. i've seen things fall through the cracks and have them throw things up where it isn't sourced properly around the newsroom. it is not the case here. >> when you were at cbs or you were at nbc, you would have been fired for doing what you do now, paying for information and tips. you have no problem with it. it makes a lot of journalists uncomfortable. >> what i said was, first of all, it's ridiculous. are you telling me that larry birkhead wasn't paid on the "today" show and ax ses hollywood? it was a million dollars. the difference is this. if you pay for an interview, which by the way, we won't, then you say to somebody, make the story really good so that it's worth the price. that's when it's unreliable. if you pay for a photo or video which, by the way, everybody in

this business does, when you have a stringer covering a -- >> you pay for tips and information also. >> we will occasionally. we don't put the tip up on the screen. if you get a tip, howie, how is it less reliable if you paid somebody $100 for it if you end up looking at it and saying is it true and chasing it down? you tell me. what's the problem in terms of the reliability if you do that? >> well, i appreciate the fact that you need to confirm these things. i'm still uncomfortable with the idea of money changing hands. among the things tmz has broken, we showed at the top jackson not the biological father of his children, there was no mother's name on the birth certificate for his youngest son. how is it all the big news organizations playing on your turf overcovering the jackson story? are you feeling the heat of the competition now? >> look, competition is intense in this business. absolutely. it's not a zero-sum game.

i think there are a lot of stories out there. we're certainly not going to break every one, and i think there's good stories and good reporting in this case. so, you know, i don't beat myself if somebody else wins a story. i will say that i think the advantage we have and one of the reasons we do break so many stories is this our turf in the sense that we know a lot of these players because we've worked with them day in and day out for years now. when you have sources and relationships in place, i think it's more effective when something big like this happens in terms of talking to them. >> definitely your turf. in the moment you have a lot of company on that turf in the rest of the media. thanks for joining us. >> sure, howie. >> the newspaper that broke the watergate scandal finds itself in a scandal of its own. ( tires squealing ) the first-ever is convertible from lexus. live a little-- a lot.

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