the man known as america's toughest sheriff and the methods for his department. for years, joe arpaio has been the law in phoenix's maricopa county. he's fought hard to stay that way by taking on all opponents, big and small. >> i know i'm doing the right thing. i'm not going to surrender by those little small groups of that don't like what i'm doing. think i'm going to surrender? it will never happen. >> tonight, arpaio and his department are facing perhaps the biggest challenge yet from a federal justice department probe more than three years in the making, detailed in a 22-page letter to the maricopa county attorney, detailing "a pervasive

culture of discriminatory bias against latinos at the mcso," that's the maricopa county sheriff's office, "that reaches the highest levels of the agency." it goes on, "sheriff arpaio's own actions have helped nurture mcso's culture of bias." in addition, it details a study commissioned by the department of justice that found latino drivers "are four to nine times more likely to be stopped than similarly situated non-latino drivers." there's more in the report documenting detention officers at the sheriff's jail using offensive slurs and profanities, calling them web backs, stupid mexicans and slurs we can't use on the air. according to the justice department's civil rights division, they're also investigating whether they failed to investigate hundreds of sexual assaults and child molestation cases. many of the victims apparently were latinos. earlier this year, when ed lavendera spoke to sheriff arpaio, he painted himself as

the victim. >> reporter: did they charge you with anything having to do with abuse of power? >> i don't even know what abuse of power is. i'm the guy being abused over and over. even you are abusing me, over and over again, abusing this sheriff. i violate the law, i do this, i do that. i'm the guy being abused. but you know what? that's part of the job. now let's take it. >> that was sheriff arpaio this summer. late today, he and officials answered the allegations. he said he wasn't going to be made a whipping boy by the justice department. another official claims the letter lacks specific, saying "we're wrestling with clouds." when asked, sheriff arpaio says he has compassion for latinos, but says enforcing the law overrides that compassion. joining us now is thomas perez, assistant attorney general for the civil rights division for the united states department of justice. how bad is this situation as far as you're concerned at the

sheriff's office in maricopa county? >> well, i think the department is broken in a number of very critical ways. the discriminatory policing that we documented, and that discriminatory policing is compounded by a penchant for retaliating against people who speak out against them. and when you layer on top of that the challenges in the jail, where people are punished because they don't speak english, and then you look finally at these other issues that have come to light more recently involving the failure to investigate sexual assaults and issues of that nature, it paints a very troubling picture of a department that is broken in a number of important ways and a culture of disregard, frankly, for the constitution that pervades the department. >> what reaction, if any, have you gotten from the sheriff's

office? >> well, we met with the sheriff's office this morning. they're still digesting the report. and what we've said and what i continue to say is i would rather fix the problem than fix the blame. we have a lot of work to do. this is serious stuff. when you're talking about the failure to investigate sexual assaults, when you're talking about people who are incarcerated for no reason. many of them are u.s. citizens, legal immigrants. these are serious issues. and in other cities -- and we have 20 investigations under way, anderson, across the country, and more than ever before in our division's history. the approach in virtually all of them has been collaboration and cooperation as opposed to confrontation. that's what i want to do here. i want to work together, not simply with the sheriff's office, but with the entire community, to come up with a

comprehensive blueprint for sustainable reform that will reduce crime, ensure respect for the constitution and restore public confidence in the sheriff's office. >> i mean, that all sounds great, though, but i mean, i've interviewed sheriff arpaio before and he's steadfastly unapologetic when it comes to his methods. he basically says i do what i have to do to keep my community safe, i've been voted back into office repeatedly. people are breaking the law, they need to be punished. that seems to be his response. >> i'm hopeful when they read this report and see the troubling findings regarding, again, not only the acts of comission, but the acts of omission, the profiling. and our expert talked about how this is the worst case of racial profiling that he has ever seen in any work he's done in the united states. when they see the culture of tolerance for retaliatory behavior, and then when you see the acts of omission, the

failure to arrest and prosecute and investigate sexual assaults, this is about public safety as much as anything. >> should the sheriff keep his job? i mean, you're saying his tactics are unconstitutional. you're saying that he's personally responsible for a culture of bias. should he be the sheriff? >> i think the sheriff needs to fix the problems that we've identified, and we've outlined a roadmap, and it's a roadmap that we have been able to follow, anderson, great success in other cities. and i hope we can follow it here. the rule in our work in the other cities has been collaboration and cooperation, and i hope we can do that here. >> thomas perez, i appreciate you joining us. thank you. >> my pleasure. >> we should mention, we obviously reached out to sheriff arpaio to come on the program. he declined our invitation. with me now, senior legal analyst jeffrey toobin, who we should mention is a former federal prosecutor.

>> and former resident of phoenix. >> what do you make of this report? >> this is not a surprise for anyone who's followed sheriff joe over the years. he has bragged about his tough-minded enforcement. all those prisoners in the ridiculous striped outfits, they have to wear pink underwear. this is sort of his m.o. he is going to completely reject this, as he did briefly in a statement this afternoon, and frankly, the more important thing that's going on in phoenix now is that there's a criminal investigation from the u.s. attorney's office there about civil rights violations that i think is the only thing he's going to pay any attention to. this sort of very nice, polite letter he's just going to throw in the trash. >> the justice department puts out this report. does it have any ramifications? i mean, does it have any legal -- >> not yet. >> they're not suing him? >> they're not suing him. it's a letter. they had to go to court just to get him to cooperate with this investigation. and you know, joe arpaio with a 22-page letter? i mean, it's nothing to him. this is something -- you know, he has built his career by

defying the feds. interesti interestingly, the department of homeland security today, as a result of this, cut off some of the contracts between the department of homeland security and the sheriff's department. homeland security is run by janet napolitano, former governor of arizona. she has tangled with him in the past, but he's outlasted her. he's up for re-election next year. chances are, he'll run and win again. and the only thing that's going to stop him is a criminal indictment. >> so, is there any chance the justice department would bring some sort of charges? >> well, there has been an investigation undergoing for several months, if not years. it's completely separate. i don't know, you know, i don't want to prejudge it. i don't know what's going to happen there, but that's the only thing that's going to get his attention. >> it's not like this division which wrote this letter. he rejects the letter and they're like, oh, well, now we're going to file charges? >> with all respect to assistant attorney general perez, all this talk of conciliation and

cooperation, i don't know what planet they're living on. >> it's political speak. he clearly doesn't want to say, yeah, he's going to blow this off. >> why not say it? this is a guy who has thumbed his nose at the justice department for years. he's sued, he's arrested other public officials in phoenix. this is a guy who plays for keeps. and a polite letter from the justice department is going to do exactly nothing. >> and if there was a criminal charge, would he -- i mean, he can only be voted out of office. >> well, if there's a criminal charge, if he's convicted, he would certainly have to leave office, but he's up for re-election in 2013, i believe, and it's really up to the voters. and the thing that has turned phoenix a little bit on him has been the failure to investigate the sexual assaults. you mentioned it, perez mentioned it a little bit. that's so awful, and it's not, you know, his traditional tough guy act. it's such a dereliction of duty that that's the thing that might sink him with the voters more than any of the immigration

stuff. >> why would he fail or refuse to investigate sexual assault? >> because they're hispanic, the victims are hispanic. >> as simple as that? >> that's the only explanation that seems plausible to me. this is a community that he views as targets, not as victims, and they have not -- and so, he ignored them. >> as i said, we invited him on the program. he declined this time around. he's been on in the past. jeff toobin, appreciate it. jeff, stick around. we'll talk to jeff shortly. suspect jerry sandusky got a new member of his legal team. we'll ask about an especially strange answer he gave in the case about training underprivileged kids how to use soap in the shower, try to clarify what he meant by that. up next, hazing in florida a&m's marching band. yesterday the president suggested it was too shrouded in secrecy to uncover. the governor had something to say about that. lower cholesterol. [ man 2 ] yummy. i got that wrong didn't i? [ male announcer ] want great taste and whole grain oats that can help lower cholesterol? honey nut cheerios.

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tonight, florida's governor is calling for the immediate suspension of james a.m. yondz, the president of florida a&m university. governor scott made the suggestion to the chairman of trustees. many are asking whether ammons or other officials missed or overlooked warning signs of hazing, brutal beatings that have landed several students in the hospital over the years. last month, one member of the school's marching band was badly beaten. less than three weeks later, drum major robert champion was reportedly hazed to death during a ritual on the bus. this brought the spotlights to universities where marching bands are the highlight of game day. the bands of these historically black colleges and universities is king. beating victim bria hunter sat

down with a reporter from atlanta tv station wxia. her mother was with her and, as you'll hear, didn't let bria say much. >> the first day, everybody -- well, not everybody, but some -- a good few people got hit. >> um, we need to stop. >> okay. >> i'm uncomfortable. >> he told me that last -- >> you ain't answering none of those questions in terms of him. >> okay. >> she has to go back to school. i'm not going to be there. >> florida a&m's president, though, has spoken at length, telling jason carroll yesterday that hazing at a&m has shrouded in "a veiled secrecy." >> one of the things we have found with hazing is that there is a -- there is a veil of secrecy. this is a culture not just here at florida a&m university.

it's on college and university campuses all across america. >> that suggestion that no one could have known flies in the face of common sense. critics and experts say ammons either was or should have been aware of the problem. they know about bria hunter's beating two weeks before champion's death. problems with the band were apparently common knowledge. 26 members were excelled for hazing shortly before champion's death. here's more from 1989 to 2001, three members were badly beaten two sued. one collected a settlement and the other a lawsuit worth $1.8 million. to top all that, band hazeings are the norm at other historically black colleges and universities. we'll have more on that shortly from guest professor ricky jones, author of "black haze." first, the latest from jason carroll from tallahassee. jason? >> reporter: well, anderson, the governor tells me that he spoke to ammons early this afternoon. he basically explained his point of view, basically saying now that there are two

investigations going on at the university, one, of course, into the hazing, a separate investigation into allegations of financial fraud, the governor felt as though it was best for someone else to be acting as president. listen to what he said when we caught up with him just a little while ago. i just want to go over very quickly your decisions behind the recommendation to have dr. ammons step aside while the investigation takes place. >> right. and all i've suggested is that he step aside during the investigation. i'm not asking for him to resign. you know, fdle came out -- >> florida department of law enforcement. >> yeah, saying they're looking at financial irregularities. i think it's in florida's desk interests and the school's best interests that he step aside and make sure there is a though investigation. >> reporter: when i spoke to the university president yesterday, he felt as though he has done everything that the law has required him to do.

do you think that is enough? >> well, i think you have to also just look at perceptions, and you want to make sure that things are perceived that are being done the right way. i mean, this is tragic. i mean, it starts with the death of a young man, and then it goes to now, you know, the investigation expanding into financial err regular leyritz. i mean, i think it's in his best interests to say, look, i want to make sure that there is no question but this university is doing the right thing and is cooperating. >> your reaction from the school and from the president? >> reporter: well, anderson, this evening i spoke to one of ammons' associates, who said that he's extremely disappointed that the governor would make this recommendation. he said ammons is crest-fallen that he wanted to stay and fight for the university. having said that, ammons released a statement, basically saying "i'm sure that this investigation will determine

that under my leadership, the administration acted appropriately. i serve at the pleasure of famu board of trustees and i will abide by whatever decision the board reaches." and anderson, i can tell you that the board will be reaching a decision on monday. >> all right, jason carroll, as always, thanks very much. joining us now is the university of louisville professor ricky jones, director of race and inequality and author of "black haze: violence, sacrifice and manhood in black letter from tern fraternities." what do you think of this action? >> warranted. i think it's warranted. in the penn state instance, there's been talk about jerry sandusky and joe paterno, but in academic circles, there's talk of graham spanier. he was seen as an ideal university president, but when

things like this happen on your watch and you don't take appropriate actions, change needs to be made and i think the same will happen with ammons. i think if these moves are made more often, i think presidents will be more act a aggressive in terms of speaking against hazing at famu. >> what do you think is at the core of this kind of hazing? i don't think a lot of people think about a band as being a place for hazing, but there's sub groups within this band at florida a&m. there's a group from georgia, which apparently robert champion was part of, and all these different save groups, i guess, have their own kind of codes of discipline. what gets to the core of this, in your opinion? >> the drive of students to belong, and that's why arguments that are made by folk who say, look, people who consent to this are the folks who really have to stop and the practice will go away. they're absolutely wrong. you cannot put the entire onus on a group of students who usually are between ages of 18 and 24 years old, and they are driven by the desire to belong. so, they're going to do a whole lot of things to belong.

folk who will not submit to the behavior are folks who are not going to join the band, not going to join the group letter organizations, any of these. so that's at the core of it. the bands are incredibly popular. students who join it want to be accepted. they don't want to be socially ostraci ostracized. but the president and his administration should know that that's a very common practice. i mean, i know and i never attended famu or worked there. >> we had this debate last night on the program with you and with roland martin and it was an interesting debate, got a big response on twitter as well. you seem to say this isn't just kind of hazing as people think about it at fraternities across the country, that there's a level of aggression here or violence here that is different, correct? >> well, yeah. i mean, the record speaks for itself. joel harris, christa hyde in los angeles, donny wade down at prairie view university. you know, these people are being

beaten to death or drowned or folks are suffering brain damage, comatose, all of these things. so, if people want to disagree with me, that's fine if they want to disagree with my argument, but they can't give me my argument. and the point is this, i never said that hazing does not occur in white reek organizations. i never said white groups shouldn't be disbanded. i'm simply saying the manifestation is different in black groups. but anderson, you have to understand this, these are groups that are very difficult to have an honest and reasonable conversation with. you'll have folk who are affiliated with famu and with this band who will simultaneously say we really grieve for robert champion and his family and then pivot and say, well, he shouldn't have consented to this and the band can't go away. when did these organizations become so sacred that we can't have conversations about banning them from our campuses because -- >> why is this different, though, than what happens at fraternities across the country, white fraternities? >> you know, there are so many

theories on that, and we would need a whole lot longer to discuss that, but it is clear that it is different. it's much more physical. and again, the white groups do haze, but not as physical as the black groups. and we do not have the manifestations that we see at hbcu bands and pwi bands, pre.com intentionally white institution bands. we simply don't see that behavior. >> the other thing i was struck by that you said last night, you think the only way to stop this is to eliminate the organization totally, to eliminate the band. that's not really a practical solution, though, is it? >> i disagree. i think it is a practical solution. you know, when you have talks about eliminating bands or eliminating greeks, people talk like this hasn't happened. this has happened at universities throughout this country. they've been private schools, the colbys, bowden college, williams, princeton. they've eliminated greek systems, and i'm sure they would eliminate bands if they were behaving in the way these bands are behaving. so, there's schools that have done this. now, it's much more difficult at

public universities, and this is why i said not only do we need college and university administrators, but we also need elected officials to get involved in producing new laws that are going to speak to this because of right of association laws. so, i don't think that is something that is beyond the pale. i understand i'm in the minority in making that argument. i'm certainly not making any friends in the band or from famu or in black reek organizations and i don't care, because the point is, what are we going to do to preserve the lives of our students at our universities throughout the country? i think that's more important than the preservation of a greek system or a band. and i really do wonder, with folks who pivot and argue for these organizations and argue for these processes, what would they do and what would they say and how would they feel if they got a phone call at 3:00 in the morning saying that their son or their daughter have been beaten to death in one of these organizations? i think the argument would be very different. >> professor ricky jones, i appreciate you being on again. thank you. >> thank you. just ahead, breaking news out of washington. late word on a deal on keeping

the government running and doing what lawmakers could have done months ago. we'll head to capitol hill for the latest on that. still to come, a strange twist in the penn state sex abuse scandal. the law for jerry sandusky says his client was showering with young boys because, in some cases, juvenile delinquents or young teens need "basic hygiene skills." we're going it talk to that lawyer in a bit. plus, bail is denied. the academy award-winning actor finds out that in china, celebrity does not open all doors. e kidding me. yeah, this is good. vamanos. vamanos. vamanos. gracias. gracias. gracias. ♪ trece horas en el carro sin parar y no traes musica. mira entra y comprame unas papitas. [ male announcer ] get up to 795 miles per tank in the all-new passat tdi clean diesel. the 2012 motor trend car of the year. ♪

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we have some breaking news out of washington on the budget deal. let's check in with kate bolduan, who is monitoring what is going on. kate, what are you hearing? >> reporter: hey, there, anderson. well, some very significant developments here in the capitol late this evening. first off, i'll tell you that we're told by democratic sources that a government shutdown is almost certainly been averted as the negotiators of this massive spending bill that would take the government and fund the government through the year 2012, they are signing that conference report, as it's called, but basically signing off on this funding bill this evening. of course, that would mean the next step is that both the house and senate would need to vote on this conference report, but almost certainly, barring some unforeseen problem, i'll tell you, anderson, it appears that this evening they've reached a point where we can say that

almost certainly, a government shutdown has been averted and much more, if i could go on, anderson. we're also told as senate majority leader harry reid was just leaving the capitol and we caught up with him, he said they are continuing negotiations on the other major issue that we have been following and that has been a major source of this standoff on capitol hill, extending this payroll tax cut. while those negotiations are continuing, and i'm told by sources they are encouraged and they're making very significant progress in that regard, that negotiators are also working on a fallback plan, if you will, a two-month extension of the payroll tax cut as well as unemployment assistance for the long-term unemployed and another important end-of-year measure in order to ensure that come january 1st, a tax increase would not set in place. that's not a statement that negotiations aren't going well. people stress to me only that they wanted to assure that as negotiations continued, they had

something in place if they needed a fallback, anderson. >> do we know what allowed the deal to happen tonight? >> reporter: they've been honestly working all throughout the day behind closed doors. we've been seeing shuffling in and out of offices. it seems that after last night, when the top members of both the house and the senate, they finally sat down and had a face-to-face gut check, as it was described to me, it seemed just that may have broken the logjam, that they finally started talking, and the two sides really started talking of how they can proceed and where is the end game. and throughout the day, it seems that they were able to negotiate and deal with some of the outstanding issues, as it's been described on this massive spending bill, and that they reached a point that both sides were comfortable that the negotiators could finally sign off it this evening. >> all right. kate bolduan, appreciate it, on the breaking news. let's take a look at other stories we're following tonight. susan hendricks has the bulletin. new reports of armed resistance in syria. antigovernment sources tell cnn

that army defectors killed more than two dozen security forces in the south today. a member of the free syrian army said its forces attacked a government military checkpoint. cnn cannot independently confirm this information. the "christian science monitor" reports that a u.s. stealth drone was intentionally brought down by the iranian military. the technique known as spoofing exploited a vulnerability known to the u.s. military. an iranian engineer quoted by the "monitor" says electronic warfare specialists cut off the drone's communications, then took control of its gps, trick taking into landing. the parent company of victoria's secret says it will investigate a report that says some of its cotton is grown using child labor. now, the "bloomberg report" profiles an abused 13-year-old girl at an organic fair trade farm. victoria's secret reportedly bought the entire crop last season. >> why can i not go visit this

man? >> a free man. >> that is actor christian bale. he's not in a role. he's in china for the premiere of a film he shot there. before he left, he tried to visit a blind human rights activist who was being held in his home for more than 15 months, but chinese security stepped in, making sure that did not happen. ba bale is saying i just wanted to tell the man he's an inspiration. that did not happen. a handwritten manuscript has sold for over $1 million. more than twice the original price. the miniature booklet sparked a bidding war. it is 1 of 16 magazines written by the woman at age 19. it contains ideas later fleshed out in her novels. 17 years later, she wrote "jane eyre." serious stuff ahead, a lawyer for former penn state coach larry sandusky said some adults need to teach young boys how to shower, how to use soap

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one of jerry sandusky's new lawyers is offering up a theory about why the former penn state assistant coach may have been taking showers with boys. sandusky has admitted to showering and "horsed around" with boys, although he's denied sexual activity with his accusers. in an interview with a radio station, his lawyer says adults need to teach some kids how to

wash themselves. >> and teaching a person to shower at the age of 12 or 14 would sound strange to somebody, but actually, people who work with troubled youth will tell you there are a lot of juvenile delinquents or people who are dependent who have to be taught basic life skills like how to put soap on their body. >> attorney carl recommeomminge joining me. this has gotten a lot of attention, obviously. you issued a statement earlier saying the media accounts of your comments about showering with young boys were "somewhat exaggerated." what do you mean? how were they exaggerated? >> well, first, let me tell you, if i had actually said that, it would have been to get on the ridiculist, because it was in response to a hypothetical. i was asked could you think of any reason why an adult man would ever get in a shower with a boy or a youth? and i offered that up as an answer to a hypothetical. when they played it, they just played the clip of my answer, so it really was unfairly drawn out, i believe. and then it sort of took on a

life of its own with the media. but what's important is, that's not what i'm saying jerry sandusky was doing. what i was saying in the aggregate was he didn't do anything criminal at any time with any of these children or any of these boys, and therefore, it doesn't really matter whether being in the shower was smart or not smart. it simply wasn't criminal. >> so, just to be clear -- and i'm glad you're on to correct, if this was taken out of context, as you're saying it was, by this local station. you are not claiming that jerry sandusky, that that's one of his motivations, to teach a teenage boy how to use soap? >> no, no, and that is not what i was saying. i was answering literally -- and i'm learning now from the national media here, you don't answer a hypothetical question, because if they don't put the question with the answer, you don't fairly evaluate what the answer actually was. >> but is -- >> my point is no, we're not saying -- >> even on a hypothetical question of can you imagine any

reason why anybody would want to shower, i don't think -- i mean, there may be some teenagers who need to learn how to use soap, but they shouldn't necessarily -- they don't necessarily need to be taught by somebody who is naked in the shower with them at the time. >> and i can see that, but i would point out that when the local station did go interview an expert, they did agree with me at least that youth of that age, as in this case, could possibly have hygiene problems, but really, that's a non issue, because i was answering it as an hypothetical, it was 1 of 100 questions i was asked. and frankly, i really think that -- and i'm going to set the record straight, i'm not saying that's what jerry sandusky was doing, and i think thas the bottom line. like i said, i should be on your ridiculist if that's what i was saying. >> i'm glad you could clarify what you meant to say. one of the comments that jerry sandusky has made that has gotten a lot of attention was his response to bob costas, and i just want to play that for our viewers who may not be familiar with it. >> are you a pedophile?

>> no. >> are you sexually attracted to young boys, to underaged boys? >> am i sexually attracted to underage boys? >> yes. >> sexually attracted? you know, no, i enjoy young people. i love to be around them. i -- but no, i'm not sexually attracted to young boys. >> to a lot of people, that raises a lot of questions and is not -- you know, usually most people if you were asked are you sexually attracted to young boys, people would just say categorically no. >> i think he does almost say categorically no at the beginning, but he repeats the question, says no, then expounds a little bit, says no. i understand why people would think the answer means something, but i've said this before and i'll say it again, a very articulate person might have said it differently, but a very articulate person could

also mislead a jury. an inarticulate person says it the way they mean it or in the best way he can, and as a result, he's being unfairly judged because his speech patterns are different than somebody might want them to be. i assure you, if you sit down with jerry as i have, that he often repeats the question back to you to be precise about what he's answering tuned think it through. so, i think it's really a short snippet that's being held against him, but if you talk to him for an hour, that's how he talks. >> on piers morgan's program tuesday night, you were asked about sandusky showering with young boys, which you conceded was strange behavior. you had this to say about him. let's listen. >> and i think if you met jerry again, you would see that he has a very juvenile effect, and i believe that mentally and emotionally, he's much more on par with a teenager than he is a 60-year-old. >> can you explain that? because i mean, it sounds almost like kind of what michael jackson used to say about, you know, he didn't have a childhood

and he feels very, a kinship with teenagers. i mean, this is a grown man. >> i understand that. and listen, i don't know what the explanations could be, but that's the effect that i get, and i heard the thing about the michael jackson thing before i was even involved in the case, and i thought it was kind of funny. but then when i talked to him, that's just the impression i got. but i would tell you, again, if you sat down with him -- and i'm hoping some day somebody would -- the problem is, as you know, every time you sit down with the media, it gets compounded down or gets pushed down into such a short blush that it's impossible to really get the full feel for the man. he seems like a genuinely nice person. >> we'd love to have him on for a lengthy period of time. so obviously, i'll get that request in with you and we're interested in just walking issues and hearing his story from him. do you -- >> and i understand that. >> do you want him to talk to the media?

because some other attorneys out there not associated with the case have kind of raised questions about whether that's the best strategy, whether it's good to have him out there saying things. some other attorneys we talked to who have been involved in high-profile cases like this have said, you know what, you've got to throw out the regular rule book in a case like this because there's such a vilification of your client at this point that you have to do something to at least, you know, push back a little bit. >> anderson, the vilification in this case was so unique and so extreme, they actually fired joe paterno on the grand jury presentment alone. joe paterno is one of the most beloved people in the history of pennsylvania, and he was fired on the bald allegation written by the attorney general's office, the presentment. so, you can see the rush to judgment here. and so, when joe decided to put him on the media, i think -- and mark geragos, i believe, had said that was the kind of strategy you might want to use in a case like this. i think the desire was to put

him out there. the question is, how much more do you do that? i think joe and jerry are going to decide that i'm really more the technician than the ultimate decider here. >> right. i was really interested and i've got to go quickly, but i was interested to see that over the course of time, what mcqueary has said seems to have shifted, or there's multiple versions of it now at this point. i think a lot of people don't understand. we haven't even seen the grand jury, the actual grand jury testimony. we've only seen a summary of it. are you gaining confidence as time goes on and as mcqueary's story, or at least there seems, appears to be multiple versions of it -- are you gaining confidence in your client? >> joe amendola waived the preliminary hearing the other day in part because mcqueary's credibility has fallen so low. so yes, i think that is a boom. and i'm interested tomorrow to see whether he takes the fifth amendment or not or whether he testifies under a granted inunt because he's given so many

different stamtst. if i was his attorney, i couldn't in good conscience let him take the stand. >> karl rominger, thank you for coming on. i appreciate it. this is not the first move by the legal team waiving the preliminary hearing. let's talk about this with criminal defense attorney mark geragos and cnn senior legal analyst jeffrey toobin. mark, what do you make of this lawyer's explanation, explaining his comments about adults showering with kids? do you buy that he was just taken out of context? >> well, if he's -- i haven't seen the whole clip. i just saw the answer. but if he's right and he was answering a hypothetical, he's spot on, and i understand it. you see it, it's one of the problems, frankly, with sitting down and doing taped interviews. it's one of the things that i find to be verbotant, when you're defending somebody in one of these cases. if you're on, get on live or play it from start to finish. otherwise, you have a thing where they slice and dice whatever you're going to say and you end up getting some story

that has legs when, in fact, it wasn't what it was supposed to be in the first place. he makes a point, a valid point, even in response to the hypothetical. anybody who's ever worked with troubled youth knows that there are situations where these people don't have basic skills, whether it's hygiene or coping skills or anything else. is that a true statement? yes, that is a true statement. if he was saying that's the defense for jerry sandusky, you know, obviously, that's going to be held up to ridicule, and he readily admits that, plus at the same time, he gives "ac 360" a plug by talking about the ridiculist, so who's going to argue with him? >> jeff, in light of what he's saying, do the comments make sense? >> i feel awkward doing this, because it's our business, particularly in television to ask people to give interviews and cooperate with us, and you know, we should be grateful that he did. i don't know what they're doing. i don't know why they're giving these interviews. i don't see how this is helpful at all. i don't know why they're talking to joe becker of the "the new york times," i don't know why he talked to bob costas, i don't

know why these lawyers are on television. i don't think any of this is helpful. i'm not criticizing everything they do. i thought they were smart to waive the preliminary hearing. i didn't think that was going to accomplish anything for them, but these interviews, where they don't have an answer about what he was doing showering with young boys, all it does is remind people he was showering with young boys. >> mark geragos on this program i think made an interesting point, which is, in some cases, you throw out the rule book, that you know, as i said to the attorney, the vilification is so great, you've got to do something to put some speed bumps on it. >> if you have something to say in answer to the question, yes. i don't think as a categorical rule defense attorneys should never speak to the media, but you have to have a plan or some answer that will at least sort of address the accusations. >> mark? >> yeah, jeff is so right about that. you know, when i say you throw out the rule book, it doesn't mean you throw out your common sense. what you do, and i think one of the things you've got to do when

you want to try and stem this tide, and at this point, it's a tsunami, is have a mantra. and you think it through. i mean, i can think about various cases that ended up in acquittals where our mantra was what was our closing argument, and that's what it is. you don't sit there -- you know, if i'm going to critique anything, it's the idea of sitting there for an hour and a half with somebody. you don't do that. you're going to take a slight period of time and you're going to come out with a mantra and you're going to repeat that mantra, and that's going to be the same theme that's going to be your defense so that you can somehow just hold back what is this unbelievable, in this case, rush to judgment as he's characterized it. and frankly, the statement that he made about joe paterno? you can distill that down into a couple of sentences and that could have been the statement. hey, all this was was a grand jury presentment where you've thrown away and destroyed somebody as beloved as joe

paterno. hold off and wait until we get into a courtroom and hear some evidence. >> also, these high-profile cases, defense attorneys say, oh, there's this tremendous rush to judgment. there are a lot of high-profile acquittals, whether it's o.j. simpson or william kennedy smith. i mean, people -- michael jackson -- people beat these cases, and it's not because their lawyers go on tv, it's because they prepare for trial, and that's what i think these folks should be doing instead. >> jeff toobin, mark geragos, good to have you on. still ahead, the war in iraq officially ended today. we'll be right back with a look at the ceremony and a closing note of a difficult conflict. ♪ ♪ mom? dad? guys? [ engine turns over ] [ engine revs ] ♪ he'll be fine. [ male announcer ] more people are leaving bmw, mercedes, and lexus for audi than ever before. take advantage of exceptional values during the season of audi event.

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this is the time of the program when we do the "ridiculist." this is not. the united states officially ended the mission in iraq. after nine years and almost 4,000 fatalities. more than 150,000 iraqis lost their lives. so, it's not surprising that the ceremony marking the end of the wafer was a quiet, solemn occasion. >> it is a profound honor to be here in baghdad on this very historic occasion. >> over the next few days, a small group of american soldiers will begin the final march out of that country. those last american troops will move south on desert sands, and then they will cross the border out of iraq with their heads held high. america's war in iraq will be over. >> we will never forget the

lessons of war, men and women of the united states armed forces who served in places like fallujah and ramadi and sadr city. >> and by battling and building, block by block in baghdad, by bringing tribes into the fold and partnering with the iraqi army and police, you helped turn the tide toward peace. >> this outcome was never certain, especially during the war's darkest days. you came to this land between the rivers again and again. >> more than 1.5 million americans have served in iraq. 1.5 million. over 30,000 americans have been wounded. and those are only the wounds that show. it was a source of great controversy here at home with patriots on both sides of the debate, but there was one constant, your commitment to

fulfill your mission. that was constant. >> you will leave with great pride, lasting pride, secure in knowing that your sacrifice has helped the iraqi people begin a new chapter in history. >> and on behalf of a grateful nation, i'm proud to finally say these two words -- and i know your families agree -- welcome home. welcome home! [ cheers and applause ] welcome home! >> so many sacrifices. that does it for us. thanks for watching. "american morning" starts now after this short break. so you earn 50% more cash. according to research, everybody likes more cash. well, almost everybody... ♪ would you like 50% more cash? no! but it's more money.

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