[ applause ] that's all for us tonight. i want to thank my studio audience and my guests. a very lively evening. tomorrow night my ex kplusive interview with israeli prime minister ned netanyahu. a very interesting conversation. "ac 360 later" starts right now. welcome. thanks for watching. welcome to "ac 360 later." a lot to talk about tonight. incredibly tense moments today in washington. a car chase starting near the white house. ended in gunfire near the capitol. the latest also on the attack in the streets of manhattan, a group of bikers swarming attacking an suv driver. also millions of poor people left out of the affordable care act because governors in the states where they live turning down federal money to cover them. dr. drew pinsky will join us on that. we begin with that chase on the streets of washington. the secret service saying it started when a car hit a barrier on the outside security perimeter of the white house. the female driver of the car is dead. the 1-year-old child in the car

is in protective custody. two law enforcement officers were injured. we'll take a look at some of the incredible video from the scene. [ sounds of gunfire ] >> [ mute ]. >> and it continued on from there. ultimately the driver was killed. joins us tonight at the table cnn political commentator and cnn chief political analyst here. senior "politico" commentator is here. and former cia officer, author of a new book" blow back." appreciate you being here as well. start with joe johns on capitol hill with the shooting. joe, what do we know about the person who was shot and events that took place? >> well, we know a lot more than

we did, anderson. one of the two police officers injured in this craziness in washington, d.c. has now been released from the hospital just a little while ago, we're told. it all goes back to around 2:15 or so this afternoon. a black infinity pulling up to a barricade there at the white house, trying apparently to get through, backing up, injuring a secret service agent there. then a chase was on all the way up here to the united states capitol. it ended right around the corner from here not far from the supreme court. officers taking out their guns, firing a number of rounds into this black infinity. the big surprise, of course, inside the driver was a woman unarmed and also in that car with her a 1-year-old infant. the infant was taken to the hospital and is now in the custody of authorities. the woman is dead, leaving the authorities to try to figure out why all of this happened, anderson. >> just stick with us. we want to brink debra fay rick

with new information about the suspect. anything go to motive or why she did this? >> reporter: not a motive yet certainly not one that's being released. we do know her name. we're waiting to get it from somebody officially on the record. what we can tell you the woman left an envelope addressed to her boyfriend, believed to be the father of that child that was taken from the vehicle. that envelope was left at her connecticut apartment, an apartment in stamford, connecticut. it was near the door. a hazmat team saw the letter, deemed it suspicious, and so it was taken to a lab for testing. it's not clear whether there was a white powder on it that was what raised their suspicion. but just they wanted to take all precaution. they also were being told, anderson, they sent in a robot to make sure the woman hadn't booby-trapped the apartment. neighbors were evacuated from that complex. they have not yet been allowed

to return. and one of the reasons is that federal law enforcement are still waiting to go get into the building. they first sent the robot in. they made sure that the apartment wasn't bobby trapped. they sought letter, the letter was removed, taken for fetestin right now. a long night as they go into the investigation. >> i want to bring in fbi assistant director shawn henry joining us by remote as well. shawn i got tweets from people earlier saying if there was no weapon in the vehicle why did police open fire. but hindsight is 20 -20, i assue they had to treat that vehicle itself as a deadly weapon. >> absolutely. talking about a 2500 pound weapon potentially. you already have one secret service officer injured, somebody who's made multiple attempts to breach the perimeter. clearly unaware of what the motivation is. officers are going to protect themselves. when they choose to use deadly force, they believe they life or somebody else's life is in danger. >> when i saw this it could very easily have been an explosive device inside a vehicle.

>> sure. and so you don't know what to expect as shawn says. but i just want to ask you, shawn, how do you go about piecing together the motivation of this woman? i mean, there's a child in the back of the car, which must have been a real surprise to everybody, i would assume. but how do they kind of figure this out? and do they know tonight? >> you know, at this point they probably don't know. this is going to take days or weeks to really figure out. officers, agents are going to go out and try to piece this together by looking at some of her online activity. they're going to interview friends, co-workers, some of her relatives. they may look at some of the information that was in her vehicle. was there a letter? the letter at the home, for example. are going to start to look at this and see if there are some clues that are dictating what might have happened, why she did this, what was her motivation. >> this afternoon, at the press conference they said they were ruling out or they strongly believe this was not a mistake. how can they be so sure this is

not really some tragic mistake, that maybe she did try to go this way. but somethingust doesn't quite add up with the kid and no weapons and something -- >> you're saying not a mistake by law enforcement? >> i don't think law enforcement made a mistake but i'm talking about the driver herself. how can we be so absolutely sure that there was not some sort of misunderstanding, that she didn't just do something wrong and then freak out after the fact and -- >> we don't know. >> we don't know. but at the press conference they basically said -- they did not -- from what they knew they were kind of ruling out this idea. >> shawn in washington i don't know the streets around this, but to go from the white house to capitol hill, i mean, i used to live in washington. you have to have some intent there. it's not an accident that you wind up at those two places. >> what about all the traffic? how did she get there? >> there's a government shutdown. not as much traffic. >> explain for those who don't note area, you have to kind of -- it's a bit of a trek

between the two. >> yeah. it's probably -- it's less than a mile. got to go through a number of different streets to get here. you don't know really whether this was an accident or not. but officers on scene, they've got a perimeter defense set up. they've got to protect the citizens, protect the facilities, the individuals that are inside those facilities. and they've got toious their best judgment when they see something like this. if there are multiple attempts to breach a particular perimeter, i think that raises their awareness, their concern, and of course these offices are all communicating with each other. they're aware of what's happened at different sites. that is going to raise their sensitivity. >> the last couple of times that the washington police have shot someone in a car, they turned out to be unarmed and they've had to settle lawsuits. so you really don't know what's going on inside someone's mind. by the way, it is a long way from the hill to the white house. republicans can't make it to the white house and the president can't make it to the capitol. >> a city very much on edge. not only because of the navy

yard shootings but then just the environment, the vitriol, language. everyone feels very tense. >> it's not a pleasant place to live right now. and today was almost surreal watching it on television. >> worse than you've seen it in terms of the world of politics? >> there are no normal days in washington anymore. it seems that we go from tragedy to crisis to calamity. and our first reaction to this is not what it was but what it wasn't. could this be terrorism. is this a mass shooting? so somehow, washington has become a place where there just are no normal days anymore. >> interesting. we're going to take a quick break. we'll have more on the day's news. shawn henry appreciate it. debra feyerick, joe johns, appreciate all the reporting. tweet us during the show #ac360. a con of rhetoric to go down, no progress in ending the shutdown. back with our panel when we continue.

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welcome back with our panel. president obama today -- this is like your fourth week with us. i still think you're frank sinatra's son after last night [ laughter ] >> again, people calling for republicans to pass a spending bill with no strings attached. there's no sign that house speaker john boehner is willing to let that happen. in an interview with dana bash,

senate majority leader harry reid said that boehner is more worried about his job than the country, bowing to pressure from the segment of his caucus that insists on making their dislike of obama care part of the spending bill. as i said, back with our panel. so what do you make of this? alex? >> i think the republicans we have them right where we want them. doing a great job lowering expectations. >> michele bachmann says she's never seen the republican party happier. >> if you'd asked me a good idea a month ago i'd have said no, don't bet on a losing hand of cards. but once you're going over the rapids, this is not the time to jump out of the raft here. republicans have to ride this out. they've drawn a bright red line just like our president often does. >> to go over the waterfall. to extend a metaphor. >> their only shot is sticking together on the raft. i'm afraid at the end of the day that -- our party is divided.

>> no. really? >> it refuses to compromise. the problem is the democratic party is united and won't change. >> valerie, you're a former cia officer obviously. james clapper, director of national intelligence, says that 70% of civilian employees in the intelligence community have been furloughed, even some analysts. how scary is that? >> well, that is scary. of course, those that are working on counterterrorism are still there. but a couple of things. one is that first of all he had sort of a statement that bewildered me after that somehow saying that these intelligence officers that are furloughed and missing paychecks are very vulnerable to recruitment by foreign intelligence services, which is like, wait a minute. a couple of paychecks and you're -- >> really bad. >> yes. the second thing whole question of contractors which we talked in the wake of the snow den revelations and so forth. so we know about 60 to 70% of the intelligence budget is spent on contractors. i'm curious to know who's been

furloughed, how much of that is contractors. >> right. >> then you'll see contractors beginning to lay off people as is occurring. >> i want to show video which i saw in our 8:00 hour for the first time. it really upset me. not the politics or the person involved in this who's a republican congressman from texas, randi nujabaur. but the rudeness of this congressman talking to a parks service employee about the shutdown at a national park. let's watch. >> how do you look at families? how do you deny them access? i don't get that. >> it's difficult. >> it should be difficult. >> it is difficult. i'm sorry, sir. >> parks service should be ashamed of themselves. >> i'm not ashamed. >> you should be. >> it doesn't cover the any money for people to come in here. >> this woman is doing her job just like me. i'm a 30-year federal veteran. i'm out of work. >> the reason you are is mr. reid. >> no. it's because the government won't do its job and pass a

budget. >> again, i don't care if he's republican or democrat. i just think what a jerk. but a guy who's getting paid, who's on capitol hill getting paid and part of this group that's caused the shutdown. but to be taking it out on a parks service employee? >> he's not turning in his salary. >> of course. >> this is the problem. i don't know if this is supposed to be some like jedi mind trick or something the republicans are trying to pull on us. the republicans did this. >> oh, charles. >> no, there's no oh, charles. republicans did this. they linked the affordable care act to this c.r. and that has caused the shutdown. we can dance around all the other parts about it and say well maybe the president needs to be having more meetings and maybe people need to accept some of the kind of piecemeal deals. >> let him finish. >> but they started this. and for them to go out and start bashing people for not being able to do their jobs because

they have made sure they cannot do their jobs is ridiculous. >> i can understand that this may be your first day on our planet. >> what are you talking about? >> but a lot of us have been here before. it mean that is history didn't begin today. it means this started a long time ago. for example, we have a government that's $17 trillion in debt. we have the largest government in the world. excuse me. and it governs nothing. it's our country is out of control. look at washington today. and what's the democrats' answer been? spend more to get out of your overspending. bankrupt the country. >> that's a classic dodge. [ overlapping speakers ] >> let him finish. >> let him finish. >> i'm trying to get my skates over here. but you've made the argument in a lot of your columns it's ideological. it is on the republicans' part. republicans are concerned the country is going over the cliff economically. they're divided and won't compromise. but you know what?

democrats are united and they won't change. they're still supporting big dumb slow factory style government. it's not about obama care. it's about bringing washington -- obama care is another example that you know what we need? we need even more washington, more government to solve all of america's problems when they haven't solved anything on education. it's a wreck. when our retirement system which washington is supposed to take care of is a ponzi scheme. health care, look at it's doing a great job on health care. the most regulated industry in the world. >> bag of gripes and throw them on the table and try to dodge a fact that republicans have done this the. >> the world didn't start yesterday. >> it has nothing to do with when the world started. [ overlapping speakers ] >> one at a time. >> many different points not even connected to this point. >> charles the world wasn't working all that well when republicans said guys we got to do something about a big problem. we need real reform. >> this is about obama care to you. >> yes. alex, you're a pollster.

you know these things. you said at the beginning of the show this isn't the strategy you would have chosen. your newspaper -- i'm bringing in both -- your newspaper tonight had a poll, the "new york times" had a poll in which 87%, that's 87% of americans say they're either dissatisfied or angry about what's going on in washington. tell me how that works for republicans. >> they should be. >> well, they should be. but wait a minute. more of them are blaming republicans, a majority blames republicans. two-thirds say congress's priority should be to get the government back up and running. so that's not a workable strategy. >> go ahead. >> i would just have to add i don't think it's helping the republicans' case to see them quite so gleeful. gleeful about yea this is like christmas. we have shut down the government. >> let me play a little conversation. >> harry reid seemed to be very happy to --

>> a conversation between rand paul and mitch mcconnell that happened. they didn't realize they were miekd. or mitch mcconnell knew. let's listen to the conversation. a fascinating window on two politicians talking. >> all wired up here. >> i just go over and over again. we're p willing to compromise. we're willing to negotiate. i don't think they poll tested we're willing to negotiate. that's awful for them to say that over and over again. >> i do, too. and i just came back from a two-hour meeting with them. that was the same view. >> i think if we keep saying we wanted to defund it. we fought for that. now we're willing to compromise on this. i think -- i know we don't want to be here but we're going to win this, i think. >> charles, when you hear that what do you think? >> oh, my gosh. it's just disgusting. really. >> politics. >> wait a minute. this is disgusting. because what this is saying is, this is not really about the american people.

this is not about governance, not about running the country. this is really about arm twisting. this is about trying to put the president and democrats in a position where they will have to talk to give the republicans a way off the ledge. they have walked out onto the ledge, an now they have to either jump or go back into the flames. now they need a way off. they are trying to force the president to be the person to give them a way off. >> this is a fight in the republican party. and alex, you know this. there are people who, including the house speaker by the way, who was dragged into this kicking and screaming. he did not want to do this. he had to appease his right. we've been talking about this for days. people are worried about getting primaried on the right by more conservative republicans. senators stood up in a closed door caucus the other day and lamb basted their colleague ted

cruz. one attendant said he was completely unapologetic about being in ads against his own party. >> first of all i'd say the nsa's budget can't have been cut too much. they got a good bug on those two guys. >> did they not know they were miked up? >> but your point on the republican party being divided? yes. there's a group of 30 or 40 republicans who i think have chosen to play an unwinnable hands of card at the wrong time here. but look at the democratic party. these republican congressmen, i think you've noted this, charles, they're in safe districts so they're only worried about a primary on the right. they're not worried about a general election. guess what? there are a lot of democrats in safe districts. how come they're not worried about a primary on their left? why? because the democratic party is united on the left. there is no division. there is no middle. there are no new democrats. [ overlapping speakers ] >> it has. but it's all about left. democratic party is now the party of elizabeth warren not hillary clinton. democratic party is the party of

deblaze yo in new york. this democratic party is united on one ideological idea. that's why we need more washington, we need to grow washington's economy and maybe it will trickle down to the rest. [ overlapping speakers ] >> united on this point. the democratic part wants to keep the republican party out of women's health care. they want to give gay people the rights to marry. the democratic party is -- >> that would be less government. >> the democratic party is united on the idea people shouldn't starve to death. democratic party is united on those basic principles. >> have you ever seen washington like this? >> well, i live far away from washington now in new mexico. but it's like every american, and in europe they're absolutely looking at us like we have completely lost it. what you were talking about gerrymandered on both sides, there is no incentive to compromise and to govern. and i think most americans want to shake washington and go, govern. >> do something.

it's great to have you here, valerie plane, a pleasure to meet you. up next are millions of single moms, low wage workers and poor african-americans collateral damage in the battle over obama care? a column in the "new york times" raises questions of race and health care. talk about with the panel ahead.

welcome back. looking at new york there. amazing, lovely shot. a new analysis by the "new york times" says there are 8 million

americans impoverished, uninsured and stuck in a health care limbo, their income too high to qualify for medicaid but too low to qualify for help in the federal health exchanges under obama care. two-thirds of the poor, and more than half of low-wage workers who don't have insurance as well. they are caught without any help because the states they live in, largely republican controlled, have decided to not participate in a vast medicaid expansion. 26 states have projected it, including every state in the deep south except arkansas. back with the panel now in the fifth chair dr. drew pinsky of hln's dr. drew on call. what do you make of this? >> it's sad. listen. this whole phenomenon, as physicians we want to help people have access to health care. we're all very clear we have to do something. i think most physicians are applauding the attempt to do something. the fact is this seems like a deeply flawed attempt. we're seeing examples of that by state by state people who really need the help the most are being opted out. >> it's interesting to hear people who want to defund obama

care, it seems like this is one way to kind of go about doing it state by state. >> right. but i'm trying to understand what you're saying. deeply flawed. >> there's flawed aspects of this. we're all going to find out what they are. not even sure what they are. one of the flaws anderson pointed out people that need this coverage aren't going to get >> it that's because the state governors have opted their state out. >> that's because the constitution allows certain rights. >> i don't know if you can reflect that back onto the law. that's the ideological refusing to do this which is basically withholding health care from these people. so i don't know how you reflect that back to the law. >> i'm saying it's the application of the law. >> well, they also can't be penalized for it. when the supreme court said that the affordable care act is constitutional, it also said that you cannot penalize the states for opting out. so there is no penalty. so politically, the states that

are the most conservative with the most conservative state legislatures are opting out. that also happens to be the states with some of the people who need this kind of health care the most. so there really isn't any penalty other than at the ballot box right now. >> the "new york times" has made this miraculous discovery that states that had more republicans in them have republican governors, and yes, they're actually attempting to be responsible about this. for example, louisiana is a state that figured out this would cost them $1 billion. by the way, this is not free money. this is federal money. it comes from the country. we do happen to be in debt so we don't have it. so a lot of governors said, you know what, besides that it's bad health care. it's medicaid. we can do better. let's reform something and grow it. louisiana has as a matter of fact a public hospital system. there are other ways to do this other than to try to impose a bad thing that bankrupts you. >> i get people who have problems with obama care. i certainly understand that. but i don't hear a lot of an

alternative that would give insurance to all these people with preconditions, with hiv, with other conditions that don't allow them to get insurance. what is the plan to insure them if it's not this? >> it's not this, either. this is going to leave 30 million people without health care, right? [ overlapping speakers ] >> because the republican governors are making the choice to do that. and in fact, on a deeper level it's very callous move, right? because these guys know -- they may not necessarily set out to make sure that these particular people do not have health care, but they know the net effect is that the people who they're denying this health care to are people who will never vote for them. take mississippi, for instance. mississippi has the largest percentage of black voters of any state in the union. it's like 37%. it's also the state where barack obama won the least white vote of any other state in the union,

about 10%. so all of the black vote democratic and all of the whites vote republican. and so they may not necessarily set out to make sure that they -- >> necessarily. >> do this. but they know the net effect is on the back end is that they will pay no price because -- >> they might. >> the people who are not getting the health care will not vote for them, anyway. >> charles, you got it. that nasty republican governor in louisiana is racist. >> oh, my gosh. you just lost the whole argument. the moment you start trying to throw around this racist argument. i'm saying they note the net effect of it is that the people who they're denying this health care to were not going to vote for them, anyway. so they don't have to pay a price if they do make this move. that's what i'm saying. [ overlapping speakers ] >> you don't believe politics played a role in this? >> i think there's a lot of politics involved in politics this. should not be news. however, do i think just because you're a republican and you want to be fiscally responsible in your state, something you think's going to cost $1 billion

and give you worse health care, we medicaid is, to say that this is just political -- excuse me, charles. to say that's just for political reasons. that's a little insulting. [ overlapping speakers ] >> one at a time here. no one can hear when you talk over each other. >> 19% after 2016. i'm sorry. that sounds like they're doing more than their sharon the federal side to try to get people health care. these poorest poorest people. when republicans always talk about we're trying to save the country for our children. there are children right now who have diseases, chronic illnesses. cannot get health care. what about those children? >> i love this. one of the problems is that the democratic party today thinks everything is the number one priority. you know, we just threw away half a billion dollars on solyndra. [ overlapping speakers ] >> i'm saying you spent the money. you don't have it now. that is a reality.

i'm sorry the reality -- >> the whole republican platform here. [ overlapping speakers ] >> one at a time. really no viewers can hear anybody. but for somebody who's living and dying or who's going to dierks you only get one life. it is pretty much the biggest priority. >> louisiana has a public health care system. >> if you're louisiana, why not move to new york if you're going to get your health care there? travel. >> making less than than $3,000 a year how is he going to move? you're talking about louisiana. we had hurricane katrina. i'm from louisiana. people kept saying why don't they just pick up and leave new orleans? they're poor! they couldn't! they didn't have -- people don't have transportation. they don't have ways to move. they don't have places to go if they have to move. this idea -- i think most people do not understand what poverty means in america. what it actually means. when people say -- >> i can tell you what it means. >> we can't vote.

why don't they have i.d.s if they have to take a flight they take an i.d. they never take a flight because they're poor. >> that's why it's unfair. that's what i was saying. i think it's unfair. if there were penalties, if there were pent penalties what would the states do then? since the supreme court said there are no penalties maybe there's a way to reinstitute those penalty. >> shucks i'm just a physician. the fact is we're trying to help patients. look at all that swirls around this. >> do you worry about a huge inflow of patients? zblbs. >> absolutely. i brought this up two nights ago when i was here. it's going to be an issue. there's going to be requirements we use physician extenders. >> i never heard of term. >> nurse practitioners. too many patients. you did a report on addiction treatment in california. that's medi-cal. physicians sit up here and extenders do the work. you're not going to like the way they actually place out. medi-cal, medicaid. not a great program. but we're trying to help people that need help.

thank god we have a catchment that catches people and institutions that step up and suck in these patients free, take care of them for free. i'm having a problem right now where my patients don't want to sign up for insurance. interns here, i couldn't get them to sign up today. they don't have insurance. because they're not used to paying for insurance. they feel invincible. they don't want to. there's a person who doesn't have a computer it's hubristic to tell them to go online. it's a massive cultural problem as well as political and institutional and insurance problem. let's all keep in mind what needs to be reformed is insurance. the tail has been wagging the dog the last 20 years of my practice in medicine. things i can't do because insurance companies tell me i can't do it. doctors, their judgment, tort reform their judgment doesn't mean much anymore. it's the systems that dictate people's care these days. >> dr. drew, good have up you. panel as always. up next in the panel key developments of that violent confrontation between bikers and an suv. the video has gone viral. mark geragos will join us.

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welcome back. developments tonight in that really violent confrontation between bikers and an suv. new york city police are seeking out witnesses who may have information and they're asking any bikers involved to come forward. the wife of the driver of the suv released a statement today saying her husband took the

actions he did because he feared for the safety of his family. i think a lot of people who see that video, saw it with him while trying to get away from the bikers the suv struck three of them, seriously injuring one man. joining us on the panel are cnn legal analyst, mark geragos, sunny hostin, former federal prosecutor, and the rest of the panel. >> you call called -- >> i want to specify one at a time. i know you all get on each other. but mark, you raised an interesting point. >> the fact you used to ride a vespa. >> suzuki. but people pretended i rode a mo-ped. you actually raise an interesting point on this. you say there's a lot we don't know, and that there's no way to tell what was in the head of all these bikers. >> you can't make a judgment.

and one of the reasons i think the prosecutors did the right thing. >> prosecutor released one of them yesterday. >> yesterday said we don't know enough. we're going to find out more before we decide what we're going to do. but remember something. that video, people watch that video they say everybody identifies or at least the people who watch this, your demo, identified with the suv driver. oh, i'm on the east side highway. i see these menacing bikers. i get it. the fact is, in that video the only person you can say beyond a shadow of a doubt should be charged with a crime is the suv driver. and the reason for that is, they ran over the motorcyclist. right then. and they accelerated. that's a hit-and-run. now, you can say -- and sonny's going to say, well, the duress, they were scared. that's fine. guess what? under the law, that is a defense. >> so wait a minute, the person who took his helmet off and slamming it in to break the window and pulling the guy out? >> that is not a per se crime. that is why this case was

rejected. >> really? that's not an assault, mark? that's not an assault? >> what's your position, sonny? >> i think that just like a picture speaks 1,000 words, think about a videotape. we don't need to ask questions about what was going on in everyone's minds. we can see it. we can see that this biker stopped short in front intentionally, probably because he wanted to be a bad ass, he wanted to make sure that he controlled the driver. >> that means you can run him over. >> bottom line is, i think the question is, was the suv driver's fear reasonable? should he really have been fearful for his life? because they attacked him. >> when the person runs over the motorcyclist and does not stop -- >> it's fight or flight. >> defense you don't get to just drive off. >> can i ask mark a question? mark a favor. please don't tell anybody in washington that it's not a crime to break windows out with helmets. >> of course it's a crime. >> everybody will be doing it in the capitol tomorrow. >> what do you make of this?

>> i'm interested. >> there's a lot we don't know we should say. >> the breaking of the window comes quite a distance after the running over of the guy on the bike, right? so i'm just not clear about what you are entitled to do. so if you feel like -- if you feel afraid, i'm not sure that that means that you can run somebody over. and that's what i see. >> reasonable fear. imminent harm. reasonable fear of imminent harm to your body, right? bodily injury. >> one at a time. >> great bodily injury. >> inside the vehicle? >> absolutely. it was reasonable because they swarmed him. they stabbed his tire. and when he got away, what did they do? ies it reasonable? they slashed his face. they beat him up. that is a reasonable fear. >> sunny, that's after the running over, though, right? >> there is a child in the car. >> the tire was allegedly

slashed before the run. >> your wife is in the car, your child is in the car. >> can i tell you how many cases -- >> i don't know what happened exactly before all of this. >> there is video taken before but not involving this suv in which they're acting recklessly, doing wheelies, stuff like that. >> from now on i love this. i love this panel. because from now on, every time i've got a guy in a road rage case, i want you guys as my jury. because all of this is complete nonsense from a legal standpoint. you don't get to -- if somebody slows down, there's nothing that says i've got to pass because i've got a 2-year-old and my wife in the car. i'm going to run them over. >> what should the driver have done? >> the driver has a legal duty once he runs over that person to pull over and stop. >> while they're pursuing him? he's in danger. you're wrong on the law. >> that's the law. >> the law does not require you to walk back into harm's way, does the law -- >> the law requires you to stop. an i will tell you something

else. the law also gives you the people who pursued him after he didn't stop, after he committed a felony or at least a prima facia case of felony, you can use legal force pursuing a felon. >> you're wrong on the law. >> sunny, how? >> if you are in reasonable fear of great bodily injury you can flee. you don't have to stand there and wait for somebody to slash your face. you don't have to go back night. >> he just ran somebody over. you're talking about a situation where you walk up to me on the street. i'm not in a car. i'm just talking about the law. if you want to talk about practical whatever i'm telling you when somebody slows down you don't get to run them over. when you run them over, you don't get to flee. >> there was a police officer and some security people quoted in the "new york times" when asked about what you should do in a case like this. and they all said look, it's a confusing situation.

a lock your door. he didn't have his door locked. somebody was able to open his door which led to the sense of panic. you should drive slowly. you're in an suv. they're on motorcycles. you will win that fight. you should just drive slowly. go to 911. stay on the highway. >> i'm going to tell you something. i want to agree with all of you. as a criminal defense lawyer i want everybody to start running over people, fleeing and get arrested and i'll defend you. and i'll charge you. >> i'm not taking a side in it. i'm just trying to figure out, it seems to me that the cracking of the window comes after the hit-and-run. and to me, i'm just trying to figure out, could both parties be wrong here? >> correct. both could be completely wrong. >> the driver could be completely wrong for running someone over and driving away from that. and the other biker -- both could be right. >> both could have the perception. [ overlapping speakers ] >> one at a time. >> this may not have been a

motorcycle gang. but these are vehicular exhibitionists. they're called, what hollywood thunder, right? they go out there and they block people on highways en masse, groups of them. they're breaking laws to do this, by the way. to do what? to perform stunts that people have never seen before. apparently one of the bikers didn't have a license? >> exactly. >> so this is not your going for a little walk. [ overlapping speakers ] >> should there be a law against it? >> you can have laws against it. what i'm just saying is, what is lost on everybody in this is you cannot just because somebody slows down, you can't run over the bike. just because you run over a bike -- >> so you're saying the person should have at that point when he hit the motorcycle. >> call 911. tell them what you did. >> he did call 911 many you're shading the facts just like you always do. you know you are. >> one at a time. >> if i'm in a car, in an suv with my wife and my child, and

i'm surrounded by a gang that looks menacing. >> you don't even know what they look like because they've got motorcycle helmets on. >> menacing motorcyclists. >> do i have the right? i'm afraid for my family. do i have the receipt to flee and by accident run over somebody? charles pointed this out, they didn't have the same point of view you see on the video camera. they didn't know hey let's run over that guy. they were just fleeing. is that a defense? >> there were bikes -- it's hard for me to believe they didn't see the bikes in front of them. >> by the way, bikes which had stopped on the highway in front to block this vehicle. >> bottle him intentionally. >> an intimidating act. >> i think that's true, too. >> do we know the vehicle apparently when this biker stopped bumped him. >> we've got to take another quick break. >> and stopped then they stormed him. >> let us know what you think. #ac360. up next we'll ask everybody what

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welcome back. it's time now for our segment what's your story where we ask our panel for a story they want to talk about. maybe you missed or they are passionate about. my story today is i did an interview with madonna earlier today only on cnn.com. you can see it there. a really interesting in-depth discussion. she has a thing called art for freedom where she's encouraging people to basically make works of art that define -- show what freedom means to them. make works of art about oppression, injustices in the world. and so i did an in-depth discussion. you can see it on cnn.com. i'm a huge madonna fan if you hadn't noticed. >> me, too. i'm jealous. >> she introduced me at the glad award. >> she was wearing a boy scout uniform. >> i asked her about that in the interview. i went to three of her concerts this year on tour. i'm like her oldest groupie.

>> groupie. >> yes. it's no longer age appropriate. i'm like there in the mosh pit like whoo! a little embarrassing i will admit. hopefully there's no video of that anywhere. but it was good to interview her. >> i would pay to see that. >> gloria, what's your story? >> nothing like that by the way. so boring. so we could skip me. totally boring. >> justin timberlake introduced you. >> no. my story is back to washington and the debt. my favorite solution to all of this, the folks out there who say you actually can just coin a platinum trillion dollar coin and solve the debt and the feds should just approve it. the fed could just approve it. you'd have it. solve the debt crisis and that's it. >> sounds like a big coin without the drugs. >> it's actually a law that authorizes the treasury secretary to do it. but these are supposed to be commemorative. not to solve the deficit. >> invest in platinum. >> mitt romney has a couple of these in his pocket.

what's the big deal? >> didn't they have to come out at some point? i thought this story was percolating before. somebody had to come out and say in treasury and said no we're not going to do that. it's starting to gain momentum. >> right. they still say they're not going to do it. but i still think it's a great story. >> we only have about 30 seconds. >> wendy davis is running for governor of texas. do you remember wendy davis, filibuster? filibusters make legends. they work if you have a good filibuster it raises your profile. >> did it work for ted cruz? that wasn't actually a filibuster? >> the purpose of it. >> rand paul nomination. >> i think he'll be one of the men left standing for the republican nomination because of that. >> because of the filibuster. >> alex great to have you. gloria, charles as well. mark geragos. sunny. >> frank sinatra comparison. >> thanks for watching. capitol scare hosted by jake tapper coming up right after the break. break. i'll see you tomorrow night.

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