tomorrow night a man who's never shy about expressing his opinions. donald trump. donald tomorrow with a message for washington on the art of the deal. that's all for us tonight, though. though. "ac 360 later" starts right now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com good evening, everyone. welcome to "ac 360 later." a lot to talk about tonight.

at the table are american adults falling behind the rest of the world in math and reading skills. a detective charged with assault for being allegedly part of that biker attack. we begin tonight with the government shutdown day nine. tonight's shred of a sliver of a glimmer of possible hope for an end in sight. how's that for a sentence? people actually talking to each other on the hill. amazing. with me on the panel tonight, cnn chief international correspondent, cnn senior analyst, cnn political commentator and in the fifth chair "new york times" op ed columnist. let's start with the shred of the sliver of a glimmer of a hope to an end of this. chief congressional reporter dana bash is on the hill. >> reporter: are you sure that's not a dr. seuss book? if not maybe it should be a new one. >> we've had enough dr. seuss in this shutdown. no more "green eggs and ham" for

me. >> well put. i'm having trouble reading it to my 2-year-old anymore. but back to the most important information about the sliver of a glimmer of hope. that's basically along the lines of what we talked about last night except that was from the perspective of republicans. they were telling me and others that they thought maybe a six-week debt limit increase could be something they would go for to give the republicans and democrats time to start negotiating what we know they've been trying to negotiate for years, which is entitlement reform, tax reform and so forth. but what i'm told from now a couple of democratic sources who were in a meeting with the president today, house democratic lawmakers, that the president went even further than he has in public in this private meeting, saying, you know, if this helps get john boehner i think he said something like off the tree that he's climbed onto, then this is something we're going have to do. so this certainly does seem like both sides are talking again

through us, saying that this might be something they could go for. >> that is what the democrats told cnn earlier today in fact that they had been at that meeting and that did seem to be possible. and they were potentially looking at some negotiating route to try to make sure the debt ceiling does get passed and we don't have this issue around this. >> paul ryan now did this op ed, did not mention obama care as one of the things that would have to be on the table. >> though he did mention entitlement reform in general. and he counts obama care as part of entitlement reform. but the tone is different today from both sides. i will tell you than it's been the previous seven days. i'm beginning to seat ice start to melt. the president is giving on accepting a short-term solution. he's also giving on negotiating even if it's post-facto. and i think the republicans are also beginning to give. and for the first time we saw today something which is

extraordinary, which was the house minority leader, nancy pelosi and her leadership team called over to the republican leadership team and there was a bipartisan meeting of leadership in the house of representatives today. i don't know when the last time woe saw that happen, dana. >> talk about the soft bigotry of low expectations. there was a meeting. that's wow, that's great. >> it is wow. i sent dana an e-mail and said girl, run, because lightning's going to strike. >> something very interesting caught people's imagination today. the senate chaplain has been speaking every day in his invocations. he spoke about this appalling situation where dead servicemen's families are not getting their benefits. he said when our federal shutdown delays payments of their benefits it is time for our lawmakers to say enough is enough. cover our shame with the robe of your righteousness. >> lawmakers are saying they were stunned, no idea about

this. there were warnings about this. the pentagon made a statement about this. >> private charities had to step in. >> congresspeople -- >> republicans have the nerve to be outraged when the government shuts down when they voted to shut down the government. this is the government. it's not just the parts you like or don't like. this is the government. when you shut down the government stuff happens. >> part of what you're saying here, no one is exactly sure when yu shut down the government what goes on and what doesn't. there are some quote unquote essential services that are still performed. i think what you see a lot of suspicion on both sides things are going to happen are, going to become political theater maybe and didn't have to happen. but i have to give dana a compliment. you were interviewing a congressman today who said this isn't the normal way to do things. and you said, there's nothing normal around here. i think that should be the new washington, d.c. motto. >> it's embarrassing. >> the new nothing normal? >> dana, we've seen a plethora

of polls come out in the last few days. congress right now has an approval rating of 5%. which is mccain had this joke where the approval rating was down to blood relatives and paid staff. now it's no longer a joke. it's reality. >> because they don't have any paid staff. they're all shut down, that's why. >> cnn says 57% blame democrats, 63% blame republicans. are these polls having an effect? are they having any effect in there in the capitol? >> reporter: no. it's not because -- members of congress already know that they are considered about as low as the dirt underneath people's shoes. i mean, they know it. this is not a news flash to them. they get it. and they all sort of shrug their shoulders and say oh, my gosh, people think that we're just horrible. then they go on. and this is everybody. go on and do the same thing that they've done before. so it's not having an effect at all. if it dropped from 50% to 5%, of course it would. but this is a lot of what we've seen before. >> dana, i wanted to bring in republican congressman robert

pittinger of north carolina. thanks for being with us. do you see a sliver of a glimmer of a possible deal or the makings of one? >> well, i sure hope that there is. there's every reason that we should be working toward that direction. we have a major concern in this country as it relates to our national debt of $17 trillion. you know, that's really the big elephant in the room. when you look at where we're headed as a country and the economic collapse that could occur, peter orzack that you had talked to, erskine bowles or of course paul ryan, they will tell you the same thing that. our country is headed toward a collapse like greece. >> can you see a deal being done that does not in some way defund obama care from your standpoint? is that something you would approve? >> well, i think to be very clear with you, we have made three proposals to the democrats in the senate.

and the last one said, hey, what about this subsidy? we don't believe it members of congress and the white house should have a subsidy. we also said how about those 1100 corporations who are able to get a delay? why shouldn't individuals have the same delay? >> but you're still talking about amending or changing the affordable care act. >> you use the word defunding. and that's really not part of what we proposed. in the last bill that we sent over, it was the entire shutdown would be completed if only the democrats would be willing to agree that we should not be entitled to the subsidy that is members of congress an the members of the white house and also that individuals should have the same privilege of a delay as 1100 corporations who have been able to enjoy that privilege. >> congressman, it's christiane here in new york. tomorrow in washington the imf and world bank are going to be meeting with american officials, and there's a huge amount of worry. christine lagarde the director

says it's mission critical to raise the debt ceiling an get this done. china has $1.3 trillion of u.s. debt. japan 1.2. switzerland nearly $1.2 trillion. you talk about being sensible and economically responsible. you have to pay your debts. you've got to pay the interest on your debts. are you one of those tea partiers who's accused of not taking that seriously enough, or do you think this country has to pay its debts? >> i'm very clear that that is a very serious issue. i believe that we have to be focused and come together as a body of people in washington, d.c. who recognize the real challenges that we have. so that is key for me. however, you have folks like moody who said that interest could be paid. we could address those priorities that the treasury could do that to avoid a real collapse there. so i take it seriously.

i think it's unchartered territory. >> you don't think it's catastrophic? >> well, we don't know that. i would hayes hasten to say we need to move as effectively and quickly as we can to try too to resolve these issues. that's why we are asking the president of the united states to come to the table. we're asking the leadership in the senate to come to the table. we're grateful that they finally heeded that call. >> congressman, can i ask you a question about a possibility that gloria borger raised earlier? is it possible that the house republicans will say, we'll raise the debt ceiling but we'll leave the government closed? do you see those two -- that as a possibility? >> i wouldn't speak to that. i don't see that as -- the debt ceiling is such a much more critical issue. i think we've got to focus on that. as i said, to shut down the

government is senseless right now. all the democrats have to agree to is the reality that we shouldn't get a subsidy. and that individuals should get the same right and privilege of 1100 corporations to not be penalized for the first year. >> but as you know that's a nonstarter for democrats. that's a nonstarter for this president to delay the individual mandate for a year. the democrats fire back and say, well, why not just bring this up for a clean c.r.? why not just bring this up for a clean vote? do you believe that the votes are there that it could actually pass a clean c.r., the house? >> i think what we have to stand for is good policy. >> do you think it would pass, though? >> well, i frankly don't believe that the numbers are really there for that to pass. >> why not bring it up, then? strategically if you don't believe it's going to pass, why not allow it to come to a vote so you eliminate it from the democrats' arsenal of weapons to use against you? >> well, i think there's a principle here. the principle is that there are

issues out there that we need to address. we need to stand for good policy. right now obama care isn't ready for primetime. we've recognized that. even your own wolf blitzer said we ought to delay it a whole year. there are many reasons why we have to -- >> can we stop you right there? >> wolf did not say that. wolf asked a question. he even tweeted a clarification later. he asked why would you put up a web site that wasn't ready. but he wasn't -- >> he does have a situation room. >> the point is that delaying obama care is a nonstarter as you have said for democrats. and we are fighting over something that was not ready for primetime as it has launched we're realizing that numbers of people that have been able to enroll are very small because there are systematic problems. >> talking about a web site and a badly designed web site rather than the actual program itself. >> but you have to enroll into

the program. >> yes. >> you have to have a program to enroll in. >> congressman pittinger, appreciate you being on tonight. follow me @andersoncooper. use the #ac 360 later. up next is the shutdown catastrophic for the economy or is it no big deal? more with the panel ahead. [ coughs, sneezes ] i have a big meeting when we land, but i am so stuffed up, i can't rest. [ male announcer ] nyquil cold and flu liquid gels don't unstuff your nose. they don't? alka seltzer plus night fights your worst cold symptoms, plus has a decongestant. [ inhales deeply ] oh. what a relief it is.

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tonight the "ac 360 later" earlier david gergen described the difference between a government shutdown and debt ceiling default. one he said is holding a gun to president obama's head, the other is holding a gun at the economy's head. back with the panel talking about what a default could do and the politicians who are saying no big deal. when you hear that, christiane? >> i find it very difficult. all the economists who are actually professional economists, not to mention world leaders who are holding trillions of dollars of debt, et cetera, are saying this could trigger a 2008-style economic meltdown or worse. to me that's freaky. and there's so many people who are saying it that the few deniers in this corner cannot be equivalent to the bulk of the opinion which is that it would be catastrophic. not just that, i said the other night the united states ace

superpower not just because of the great military, not just because of the great democracy but because of the confidence in the dollar and backing up the world economy in currency. the minute you start chipping away at that confidence you start chipping away at your economy and the global underpinnings of the economy. >> the shutdown is a thing that's easier for people to understand. this is something, the debt ceiling is a lot more complex for people to understand. >> very much so. in part because it's never happened before. we did have government shutdowns in the 90s and we know what it's like. and the national parks closed. the debt ceiling has never failed to pass congress. so what that means, i think, is a subject of speculation. most people agree with christiane that it would be very bad, but no one knows exactly how it would work. >> on the other hand, there are people even democrats who say, perhaps the debt ceiling is something that actually ace area where you can negotiate big ideas. not gun to your head kind of thing. but it's about the debt and all

that. whereas obama care shutting down the government is actually apples and oranges. >> qualify when you were talking about it as a few in the group of debt ceiling deniers. because it is a small number of people who are saying that -- they're making noise. but it's a small number. and they're not going to win this battle. >> maybe not. >> a former u.s. comptroller general head of the government accountability office, founder and ceo of the comeback america initiative. david good to have you on the program. >> good to be back here. >> how big a deal would this be if this did not pass, debt ceiling was not raised? >> first i'm embarrassed to be an american today. the fact we're even having a debate about whether or not we should pay our bills is rather ridiculous with the world's soul superpower. but let's talk to the ground troop. the article iv of the 14th amendment of the constitution guarantees u.s. debtholders. the treasury department has the ability to make sure that debt is serviced on time.

believe it or not, this country has such poor financial management systems that it doesn't have adequate transparency to be able to prioritize other payables if you will. but there's absolutely no reason that the united states cannot pay all of its debt obligations on time. but if you don't have enough cash to be able to pay all of your payables, you've got to set priorities. we shouldn't be in that position. and we should be extending -- we should be having the c.r. and extending the debt ceiling for two to three months and entering good faith negotiations to be able to decide on funding for fiscal '14 and set a target to restore fiscal sanity over time. >> david, there are people out there who say we've heard these doomsday scenarios a lot of times in the past. they said it about the sequester, about the shutdown. what specifically can you say would happen if the debt ceiling is not raised? is there a timetable of what would happen? >> first, treasury is not real

certain that october 17th is the date, which really hurts the credibility. when you set a date, you need to make sure that it has credibility or else you're undermining your whole position. what would happen is we would continue to pay debtholders, but to the extent that you don't end up having enough cash to pay all of your payables, you would have to pay slower than normal. you would end up incurring some penalties under the prompt payment act. let me tell you what the real date is. the real date is october 31st. because what's different this time than in the past is social security is paying out more than it's taking in. it is negative cash flow. by law you can only pay social security benefits from the so-called trust fund. which means that the benefits would not be able to be paid on time if they don't resolve this by the end of october. my view is, we're seeing some movement in the last 24 hours. hopefully reason will prevail

and that they'll enter some substantive negotiations over the next couple of months that will end up helping us to achieve some real progress. >> david, shouldn't we be clear about one thing? this is one person's decision. john boehner's decision. if he brings up a vote to raise the debt ceiling it will pass. if they doesn't bring up a vote we're going to have this potential calamity. shouldn't we be clear that this entire matter is in john boehner's hands? >> it's not, david. >> i don't agree with that. >> why? >> first i think there's a failure on three parties. i think the president has failed to lead. absolutely failed to lead. he's the only person that is elected by all the people of the united states. he's the chief executive officer of the united states. secondly i think the republicans made a dumb move. and i've said it publicly. to try to attach the affordable care act to the c.r. that was just downright dumb. thirdly, i think the democratic leadership in the senate has refused to negotiate. so look, there's nobody that's

got clean hands here. the american people are disgusted with washington at large, and frankly if there wasn't so much gerrymandering of the house of representatives, you could end up having a major effect on the elections but we've got so much gerrymandering we now have a republic that's not representative of nor responsive to the public. >> do you think that's a false equivalency? >> i think it's a total false equivalent. this has never happened before. there's never been this kind of hostage taking, to use a word we discussed a lot last night when it comes to the debt ceiling. you've had people like obama himself as a senator vote against it but everybody knew the debt ceiling was going to pass. john boehner alone is deciding whether the united states will go into this crisis or not. this is up to him entirely. and that's just a fact. >> jeffrey, you're assuming he has the votes. where's your proof that the

votes are there? >> from every news organization has said that the votes are there. but there's only one way to tell, isn't there, whether the votes are there? which is have a vote. >> but understand this, jeffrey. i came to washington the first time 30 years ago. if you're saying that presidents have never negotiated over debt ceiling before that's just flat false. it's not reality, okay? the debt ceiling was the only thing that actually got people's attention to where you could actually get something meaningful done. and i come back to what i said. there's no clean hands here. and it's time that we get to work and start solving problems, which is not what's happening in d.c. today. >> he's right. we have got to stop -- we have got to stop, you and me, this blame game of trying to blame one side over the other. because i think all of them. you've seen that. the public outcry you're seeing is about everybody. everybody is disgusted with congress, with everybody in

washington. >> that's the easiest thing to say. what's different is the way the republican party is acting today. that that is completely different. the republican party of bob dole, of howard baker, it would never happen. >> you only like to see what the republican party does. but this is politics 101. to the victor goes the spoils. you would not expect senator reid to put on the floor something that would be passed by a majority of republican votes in a minority of democrat votes. >> if it meant a meltdown of the world economy? of course reid would do that. >> well then he's got things he could put on the table right now. >> it could be true there's a radical element in the republican party in the house that is particularly to blame here. that is true and can be true. that doesn't mean everybody is is blameless. to anna's point everybody has to stop speaking in the language they are and throwing around the sorts of words they do. that can be true. there can be blame going in a lot of directions there without it being false what you say

about the republicans. all these things are true. >> people not only have to stop slinging mud around but they have to start talking. so clinton, president clinton skro described a few weeks ago even at the height with the ack acrimony of newt gingrich they were negotiating. he has to explain today that once clinton and the congress were dealing with a budget thing, clinton was on an africa trip, ended up in ankura. at 2:00 in the morning hastert calls clinton thousands of miles away and said it is done. >> we haven't seen what we've seen until now. the white house inviting congress to come in and discuss what they're going to negotiate about. this is a new thing. >> 200 plus members of the republican conference would have gone to the white house. north going but they were invited. the whole lot were invited.

>> we've got to leave it there. it's always good to have you on. i appreciate you staying up late with us. up next americans pretty much bomb a reading and math test compared to adults in many other countries. talking about adults as well not just kids. what is going on? back with our panel in a moment could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. yep, everybody knows that. well, did you know the ancient pyramids were actually a mistake? uh-oh. geico. fifteen minutes could save you...well, you know.

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. welcome back. when it comes to basic math

skills, reading, for instance, which i'm not doing a very good job of right now, americans aren't quite making the grade compared to what's happening in other countries. i don't mean just school kids. we're talking about grownups here, adults. adults scored below average in math, reading and problem solving using technology. researchers tested about 166,000 people in more than 20 countries in a study called the program for international assessment of adult competencies. back with some of the most competent adults i know, christiane amanpour, jeff toobin, anna thnavarro and fran kooby. >> it's distressing but not surprisin surprising. >> u.s. spends more of its gdp than most countries. >> i didn't say it was acceptable. >> the most nobel laureates. >> all of us have been talking

about it for years about how much education needs improvement in this country. what this survey does it ex trap hat trap lates. it's an extrapolation. >> 3 million jobs are available in the united states right now. perhaps even more. and they are unable to fill them because they don't have enough qualified or skilled workers. >> that's a big part. that's one of the reasons we debate immigration. >> not only about immigration but also about having to educate and help adults transition, mid-career adults make the transitions. >> what's distressing about the study it shows the difficulty if your parents are not well-educated. didn't go to college. the difficulty of surpassing them. the difficulty of getting a college education if your parents haven't. >> upward mobility. >> which in the united states is a huge deal. >> our whole national identity is tied into it.

when that goes away we lose our national identity. >> let me tell you something so we don't all get depressed about the future of this country. as you know i'm at harvard this semester as a fellow. i have met a number of kids there who are just the most spectacular kids. at harvard there's a very generous policy -- >> a little bit of culling is going on here. >> there's a lot of kids at harvard whose parents make under $50,000. i have met kids whose parents are jan tors, whose parents are gardeners who maybe had a second-grade education or sixth-grade education and are at harvard. they're having great socioeconomic shock making the transition into a place where the brick walls are covered by ivy and where there's all those resources. but there are still some incredible, spectacular, amazing, smart engaged students america. >> of course there are. and frank is right. i didn't mean to say it's not surprising. it should be surprising given the amount of money. >> it's scandalous. >> it is scandalous. it is dropping and it's not

right. it means america is less competitive overseas. there are many reasons for it. incredibly high tuition. it's gone up five times the rate of inflation. incredibly high student debt in university. a lot of burdens. >> college educated. the kind of things they're testing are basic reading skills. now, it is true that many states are now adopting something called the common core which should at least in theory focus people on learning just these sorts of things. >> i want to bring in author amanda ripley. she wrote a book called "the smartest kids in the world and how they got that way." a. amanda, what are the headline force you about this study? >> i think it's partly very depressing as you said. but partly there is some hope in here. one of the things that struck me is how much our adult skills mirror our kids skills. it's particularly true in math. we have a real challenge, a real deficiency in math. less so in literacy particularly among 15-year-olds. but we only have two countries

that performed worse than we did in this test in math. this is a big problem. but it's not that we're going backwards, not that we're getting dumber, but it's that our younger generation, our 25 to 34-year-olds is not keeping up with 25 to 34-year-olds in other countries. so you're seeing a real surge in skills in countries -- >> so what should we be doing? >> one of the things that we know that's actually hopeful about this is that the u.s. population is pretty young compared to other countries around the world. so changes we do make in kindergarten through high school tend to have a bigger impact more quickly. the common core standards for math and reading are definitely a step in the right direction. more aligned with international norms. that's kind of a no-brainer which isn't to say it's going to stick. that would add rigor into the process. the other hopeful thing here, the top of all those charts just like at the top for 15-year-olds is finland and japan. finland had a 10% high school graduation rate in the 1950s. japan wasn't much better.

>> so you're saying change is possible. >> no, totally. >> explain how. >> frank? >> i have a question. there's a very funny quote in the survey by a georgetown university faculty member. he says whenever one of these types of studies come out people say yeah but if we're so dumb why are we so rich? it's a way of deflecting the whole thing. what is the answer to that? if we're so dumb why are we so rich? >> there's many things that effect a country's economic growth. but we know that these kinds of scores are tied to a country's long-term economic growth. and they're becoming more weighty, more influential in a way that they weren't before as jobs become automated and globalized. >> christiane had a good question, how did finland and japan do it? go from having a 10% graduation rate to 90%? >> right. they were up against it economically. they were in a time of of serious economic peril that should sound familiar to us right now. one of the things they did they got very serious about education in a way that we have not.

one of the things they did just to give you a quick example, in the late 1960s they shut down their teacher training colleges which were of wildly varying selectivity and quality. and they moved them all to their most elite universities which obviously had the the effect you're getting your best educated people into teaching. it had a signal effect. kids pick up on the fact that getting into teacher training college in finland today is like getting into m.i.t. in the united states. so it sends a message that you're serious about this. >> exactly. >> how much of it do you think is teacher quality, teacher accountability here in the united states? how much or what percentage would you account for that? >> there are again a lot of things, but certainly teaching quality is one of them. one of the things you see is that the most impressive, the real education superpowers in the world, they elevated -- they raised the ceiling on teaching quality by make it much more

selective and rigorous. then they were able town wind some of the more draconian accountability measures. it's only once you're able to do that and have a high trust workforce that you can really lift the creeling. >> can we really look to japan and finland as examples when they're smaller, not nearly as diverse as we are, don't have the poverty rates we do? how much can we draw that we can emulate? >> in terms of innovation, isn't the united states still kind of a leader in that in terms of creativity? or am i living in a fantasy? amanda? >> the u.s. has a lot of assets, a lot of strengths. when i surveyed hundreds of exchange students who had spent time here, they liked their american teachers, the kind of interaction. that kind of interactivity is important. nine out of ten of them said their classes were easier in the united states. so that kind of interactivity and freedom has to be coupled with rigor. so there's a lot of things at work here. and we do have a lot of poverty,

a lot of diversity. but there are countries in that study that have a significant amount of poverty. canada, estonia, that are significantly outperforming us at every age group. it's a mix of things that kind of get together. >> one governor of a western state said a couple of years ago she was always so frustrated when businessmen would come and meet with her. where's our educated workforce? she'd say you know what, the pressure is to first thing that goes is the education budget. and it's a big deal. and the proof is in the pudding. >> if you were going to prioritize where most improvement needs to happen, grade school, high school, college, universities, where would you put it? what would you make the first priority? >> that's a great question. i would put it in early education. there's a certain irony here. if you were an alien and parachuted on to the earth and read the study results and about how due to sequestration and the government shutdown we're pulling low income kids out of preschool, you would see that as

a bizarre contradiction. we know that quality matters more than quantity. we have a lot of testing and homework in the united states. we spend a lot of money as you've noted. but we don't have a lot of quality. we don't have many smart tests and homework. i think that starts but doesn't end in the quality and selectivity of the teacher training program. >> how come it's so much better to talk to you than to talk to any member of congress? >> it's a low bar. >> a.m. mmanda ripley, thanks f being on. attack on an suv driver by a group of bikers. an off duty nypd detective has been arrested for participating in the assault. was it his job to step in to stop what was going on? we'll try to get answers next. i'm beth...

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welcome back. new york police say at least two undercover officers were riding their motorcycles the afternoon that some of the bikers and their group got into a confrontation with the driver of the suv. the cops were off duty at the

time. today one officer was charged with assault. as for the second officer police have no information he took part in the incident. as this intense situation spiralled into violence, did the officerses have a duty to stop it or to attempt to stop it? some insight from a form police officer. what is the right protocol in a situation like this? joining us is a former nypd detective sergeant. what is the responsibility of an undercover officer off duty, not on a beat, and a detective no less? >> well, an off duty undercover officer has different responsibilities than just a plain old off duty officer. an undercover officer is supposed to protect his identity at all time. that said, that's always a guide. and there's always the flexibility and possibility that an undercover would break from his undercover role and take police action if somebody's life was at stake.

>> the allegation is that this officer banged on the rear windshield, banged on one of the windows of the vehicle. i suppose he could make the argument, well, i was trying to -- i thought the person had done a hit-and-run. i mean, there's any number of defenses he could make. but the fact that he didn't report or apparently did not report to his superiors for several days that he was there, does that concern you? >> yeah. an undercover officer who's caught up in a violent situation, he certainly can observe, take down license plate numbers, memorialize descriptions with people that are taking bad acts, and then immediately go to his superior and his command and say, hey, i was in the middle of something and i need to pass along information i was able to gather. it seems that the officers involved in this incident didn't do that. >> but isn't there a distinction between when an undercover officer is on duty and when he's

not on duty? if he's not on duty, what difference does it make if he's an undercover officer? he should help, right? >> well, like i said before, certainly there's an opportunity or a possibility that he would have to act if he should. and i believe that especially at the end when the man was dragged out of his car and was being beaten, certainly he could have been killed at that moment and someone should have acted if there was a police officer there. and it seems there was. but that said, undercover officers off duty and on duty come across crimes all the time. and in their undercover role what they're looking to do is build big cases against criminal enterprises or other bad actors. and they'll record that information, they'll report it. but they don't jump in and act all the time. and so if the training is sometimes confusing for these guys, and the rules are sometimes confusion that's because there's a million

different possible scenarios these guys can come upon. and what we hope is that they'll use good judgment when the time comes. >> we should point out this is a detective we're talking about. i've worked with detectives on personal stuff in the city. and i have a huge respect for them. i mean, this isn't somebody who's new to the beat or -- i mean, detectives are of the highest level and have great respect in the new york city police department. >> oh. it's a prestigious rank and it's respected all over the world as it should be. it's possible this detective is a very good police officer and has been and failed to do the best that he could at this moment. i don't want to judge a guy's whole career. >> mark geragos made the point last night. i talked to somebody today who was there just on background. but in mark's point was, we don't know what each of these bikers saw, including this detective. for all we know, this detective

saw a hit-and-run and a driver take off and was banging on the windshield in order to stop the guy and even maybe he could argue trying to get the family out the other side. we simply don't know what this person's defense is. so it is very easy to rush to judgment and one should always be cautious of that. but certainly raises a lot of questions. >> i mean, it's literally hundreds of bikers in some of these groups. so it's hard for anybody to see all the things that go on. >> do you think maybe cops should have a different hobby than riding with hundreds of motorcyclists up the west side highway? >> you know, tees groups, everybody knows what these groups do. they use their numbers to slow down the traffic and basically take ownership of the highway. i don't think any off duty police officer should be in a group like that. >> appreciate your perspective. >> so they were up to no good.

>> i mean, if you've ever seen these -- it's not a gang. >> but that's the first time i've heard somebody explain. >> there's a long history of these large groups. >> the answer to your question is yes. >> do we know now how many undercover cops were involved here? >> no, we don't. >> we know of two? >> we've got to go. stories you've possibly never heard of. i'll ask everybody what their story is next. [ male announcer ] this is pam. her busy saturday begins with back pain, when... hey pam, you should take advil. why? you can take four advil for all day relief. so i should give up my two aleve for more pills with advil? you're joking right? for my back pain, i want my aleve. 20 years with the company.hool.? thousands of presentations. and one hard earned partnership.

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time now for what's your story. we ask the panelists about maybe stories they are interested in and other people missed? >> i just finished a great book "the skies belong to us, love and terror in the old engage of hijacking" by brendan kerner. the story of the hijacking epidemic in the early 70s. i don't remember. i was alive. >> you don't remember? >> i mean i remember there were hijackings. >> what were you doing in the 70s that you don't remember? >> i was a little kid. there were five week sometimes. and the stories are scary and frequently hilarious. it's a great book.

>> i flew out of beirut and this and that. my favorite story is molalla. i'm interviewing her tomorrow talking about education. this is a girl who's put her life on the line. i think she's a prodigy. the way she talks is unusually sophisticated and clear and very beautiful. only 16. >> she is a picture of grace and posture. love her. >> she is. >> what's your story? >> we talked about the redskins controversy? i think there's a bigger story in the nfl, the dysfunctional culture, the violence, aaron hern hernandez trial began. widespread problems with the nfl, denial of chronic brain injury. >> a documentary about the concussion. >> it's really upsetting as a fan. >> all i want is for them to stop asking me for money to stop building stadiums for billionaires. that's a bill problem well,

today something happened unexpected, unscripted photo bombing of harry reid and democrat presser going on at the capitol going on in washington. and it got broken into by the mayor of washington, d.c. >> there's the video right there. >> they've got a real problem. because their funding comes through d.c. appropriations. so they are not being able to perform some basic duties of the city. and they went in there, demanded -- he demanded. and harry reid said to him, don't screw this up. i'm on your side. sort of an unguarded moment. it's why i'm telling you, everybody's getting the blame. even these folks in d.c. who are mostly democrat are very angry at what's happening. >> we are out of time. i want to thank everybody on our panel. thanks very much. that does it for "ac 360 later." thanks for watching. we'll see you again tomorrow night at 10:00. hope you'll join us. up next, "shutdown showdown" with jake tapper. create moments of value. build character through quality.

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