it's a big one. a big topic. the distinguishing thing about

whitey and what makes him at this point historic crime figure in terms of crime figures and where they rank in 20th century america, heehaws the body count to match up with other crime bosses, he's been charged with 19 murders and probably many more. he's got the longevity, he's been around a long time and has made millions but we found with whitey the thing that sets him apart whether it is dillinger, al capone or whoever they might be is that whitey brought the fbi the nation's top law enforcement to its knees. he harnessed the power of the fbi on his behalf and that is what gave him his rise to power and his longevity and no one else in this underworld has that claim to fame so to speak.

that is his historic marker that we should never forget because he compromised the fbi for so many years. it's a subject and a topic we went deep on and check for 20 years which whitey had his so called holy alliance with the fbi we refer to as the black mass years and we have taken those and in the new book whitey we have put them in the larger context, the full arc of his long life and getting into the project to finance the research for the past year or so got away we were astonished by how much new material and information we were able to uncover and work with in trying to put together the long life of whitey taking a look at the making of the monster, the house and the body of whitey.

these are things when you read him you are going to be reading about whether it is tracing the family, the history of the family backed off your land for the first time it's never been done before. whether it is having the benefit of his prison file when he was away for nine years in various federal prisons including alcatraz, 600 pages of previously unexamined material. when you read whitey you are going to be reading letters that were written to the prison officials about his brother and trying to improve his brother's life and you're going to read letters from whitey bulger, from incredible famous people to read again, something we never knew before. you are going to find out about prison reports that tracked his evolution for the prison system that began in atlanta and ended in louisburg in pennsylvania. it's really remarkable stuff. and one of the things that, you know we've been in this story for a long time, but it was eye

opening when you're looking at whitey bulger's long life, doors open to all kinds of other worlds. it might be the 30's and 40's in boston and the study of juvenile delinquency. it could be the science and the study of the criminal mind a and psychopaths. we went there. it could be about the fbi and its history to the 20th century as it waged a natural campaigner against organized crime and created this top echelon in program which whitey was cleverly manipulated in his behalf. it could be about alcatraz, the most famous prison. some stuff i don't know if anyone is familiar with the famous alcatraz of the escape from alcatraz and putting all this stuff together, the various resources and realizing that while he is an alcatraz and they had both been in atlanta previously, that while frankly

morrison and two or three other inmates were using spoons to dig these tunnels from whitey, the smartest one of the mall probably was working with his brother and the house speaker one of the most part or whole mind in the country to go out the front door while the others were going out the tunnell never to be seen again. that's the kind of thing you can end up putting together when you have these resources that we have. another door that opens up is the cia lsd product that was under way through the late 50's and into the early 60s and whitey played a role in that and that is the excerpt of the passage i wanted to read from because when whitey went away as a 26-year-old to start serving a sentence for bank robbery in 1956, his first stop was ballan tough and within a few months she had several other inmates and one thing about whitey

bulger we realize is he is a control freak and he pretty much freaked out when he had other inmates veteran criminals that he had to share a small space with and they were charging him not to and within three months of his incarceration, checked himself into the psych ward at atlanta. within a year or so he became involved because that is where it was going on, this so-called lmsb project. and that is where i want to read briefly to you about. in july if 57 about a year in an atlanta she had gotten a job at the prison hospital. that is where his work assignment -- that's where his work had become. it was the new job that gave him an up close look at the lsd project. now nearly 2-years-old, held on tuesdays and thursdays in the basement of the prison hospital, or about the project already

spread publicly beyond the walls of the present. the alana the journal constitution had run a feature story about the experiment under the headline drug fed prisoners aged study along with a photograph showing one of the doctors interviewing an inmate volunteer. the article began 16 prisoners of the atlanta penitentiary are helping medical researchers study mental diseases by voluntarily taking a potent drug that induces symptoms of schizophrenia. that was the idea of the lsd project. it's hard to go back in time and it certainly was before my time, there was a public face to this project that was going on in the prison, was going on at harvard and a couple of their facilities. doctors were trying to come up with a cure for schizophrenia, and this new drug called lsd seemed to make someone recalled instantly insane. so, they would have volunteers take lsd, the trucking their brains out, and then they would

try to test various drugs on them to see if it could be a cure or a remedy for the schizophrenia. that was the idea behind it. it wasn't secret at all. as a free public thing. was written about come and whitey bulger was one of the volunteers that volunteered -- inmates that volunteer. we always heard a little bit about perhaps that the cia had a secret role in and where they were feeding these doctors in atlanta at emory who were involved in this other drugs to test on the subject in addition to the lsd as part of their espionage and counterespionage chemical warfare interest so that was the secret private side that didn't come out for years later but it was a very public project of the time. so there was a big story in the atlanta pure. the paper interviewed the leah

doctor of emory university and quoted from an account of one inmate's trip. the newspaper didn't identify the inmate but whitey and the other prisoners could have for leggitt fais hammes wingfield bernadette, the newspaper without credit have listed the description that he had written for the atlanta in which was the prison magazine. they covered it in their own prison magazine. the inmate publication. in an issue that included such articles as ted williams, she'll or hero, and virgins would you marry one? ran on a cover story called i went insane for science and the author was a doctor writing anonymously about his experimental trip and the article included the mention of his work in the atlanta prison. whitey met with pfizer and his associates just a few weeks after he started working in a hospital in july.

the heat under -- he underwent a process to the site cord the previous october. the inmates called him the not doctor. dr. brough and interviewed whitey and administered psychometrics tests which included tests designed to confirm a volunteer was normal. doctors involved in the ilyse project when writing were talking about the inmates meant normal in quotation marks because none of them was that. the lead doctor was quoted saying inmate volunteers had all score high and tested for psychopathic tendencies. they were not normal, he said, they are psychopaths. the point of the psychological screening the most to make sure the inmate was stable and could withstand the project's risk of lsd and other drugs. except for character disorders, no psychiatric abnormalities were present in the subject,

doctor wrote in a journal article about the prisons lsd experiments. finally, to make it all seem legal and ethical, whitey sat down on august 5th, 1957 with 1 of the doctor's associates and signed on the dotted line. it was a document of disclosure explaining the benefits and risks that the doctor had created specifically for this lsd project, and the one-page form bearing a signature of james jay bulger carried a heading in capital letters contract between department of pharmacology, emory university school of medicine and human volunteers at the u.s. penitentiary, atlanta georgia. so that's the kind of thing we were able to get our hands on ourselves was whitey's so called contract to participate in the gillespie project. it to continue, one morning, two months later, after eating a light breakfast in the dining hall, whitey was taken by a

guard to the hospital, a building located on the west side of the prison compound behind the house he had been cut initially in the eight man cell. with a prison population of more than 2,600, the size of many small towns across america, the hospital was fully operational. it has 75 beds and four full-time doctors assisted by 11 medical technicians. prisoners staff to other physicians from clerk to head operating nurse in any given year 250 major and 750 minor surgical procedures were performed. whitey walked through the main door, the main floor in the down into the basement words f where the nero's psychiatric ward where a large room secured with a steel door was set aside for the lsd project. he was a member of the tuesday group of eight inmate volunteers checking in for a 24 our statehood hafed and he joined

the others. by now whitey new futrell come he did in part of the project for more than a month. he sat on the bed. the doctors always encouraged subjects to remain in bed for the duration. by 8:30 a.m. or about two hours after breakfast, whitey took the lsd dosage prepared for him, drinking it in a glass of liquid. the drug was odorless and colorless. then he waited. could this be what the doctors called a trivial dose meaning 25 micrograms or something stronger? in his first month he had been given increasingly stronger doses of the psychedelic drug so that he could come as the one doctor wrote become fully familiar with the effect of the drugs, both qualitatively and quantitatively. the first dosage was 25 micrograms and the second, 50, then 75 and finally, 100.

he would know in about an hour and the dose as the symptoms began to manifest. when the lsd begin working on his brain causing havoc on the interaction between his nerve cells and the transmitter serotonin the human body the serotonin system that acts as a kind of control tower for the behavior, perceptions and mood. the first sign he was on his way was the sensation that the lights were alternately dimming and brightening as if someone were playing with the power supply. in fact the lights for constant but his pupils were violated, changing in diameter and affecting his light perception. to help him can down the power of this trip, the doctor readiness as the and would soon come by to ask a series of 28 questions. certain questions addressed symptoms evident from taking a low dose to read as the light bother you? you feel fatigue cracks others suggested it was seen with

higher doses, dosages. are things moving around you? do you feel as if in a dream? he would know what was on the stronger side if when he closed his eyes he saw an array of geometric patterns accompanied by a kaleidoscope of colors. i don't know who in the room has been there but that is what he put. cutting go could not have come easily. whitey bulger have always felt most secure when in control. the prison had changed all that. he lost nearly every measure of control. the eight man cell being one ever-present reminder. hallucinating on lsd meant losing even more. for someone who has a tremendous need for security for control, this could lead to a tremendous sense of anxiety, the doctor a psychiatrist at mclean hospital in massachusetts commented leader about the combustible mix of whitey bulger and lsd. it was october 8th, 1957 when whitey began this particular round of the drug.

the date was exactly one week after america began sending b-52 bombers loaded with nuclear weapons airborne are not walk in case of a soviet attack. and it was only four days after the soviet union shocked america with its successful launch of sputnik satellite. the focus of the world was on the cold war and russia's ride into space. while whitey was lying in a bed in ward f base in himself for a different kind of trip with marmalade trees and skies. okay so hopefully that gives you a flavor of what kind of storytelling that all this new material enabled us. whether it was his actual prison file, whether as a prison inmate publication, secret cia files that have since become public and working all this material and having documents about whitey in each calendar of the

days and the times when he participated as a member of the tuesday grew, weekend and week out to drop acid. so with that, i would like to turn it over briefly to jerry who will talk about our history in the story coming and then we would like to open up to the floor for questions because in the past we found people have plenty to say and ask about when it comes to this story. okay. thanks. [applause] >> thank you. thank you. i sort of have historical context. i think what dick and i bring to this discussion is a unique historical perspective. we came to this story early and we've stayed late. it's a career undertaking and has a body of work that goes with it. the chronology is 25 years ago

when its investigative reporters on the globe we did a series of articles on the two brothers at the height of the call and at that time we reviewed whitey was an fbi informant. the reverberations from that were strong and lasting and recounted in the book we are talking about tonight. the next stop was ten years after the revelation about the informant. we did a black mass which dick talked about that chronicles the fbi descent into the total corruption of the boston office, and we were able to hint at some of the poverty have whitey bulger. that's going to become a movie hopefully. production starts in may. that's hollywood scheduling. but a lot of fits and stops about the movie and black mass.

but i think we have some reason for optimism now. at least we have a good director with barry levinson, quite accomplished. and finally come here we are tonight on whitey, the third installment on this long story. dick sort of recapped pretty much everything. but i would like to stress that its comprehensive and a full-blown biography. and it goes back two centuries, retracing back to their roots and newfoundland. i had done some research on the emigration department from the family in the mid-19th century, and i was surprised and fascinated to learn the most enjoyable and lasting immigration was from the harbor in southern ireland to st. john's newfoundland.

so we had a lot of new information to bring to bear on that. dick and i have an investigative reporters or whole career and ask a lot of people tough questions. so we are now trying to turn the tables and fire away on one of the questions about the writing and the research and the history [applause] >> in your research did you find it remarkable that the congressman who lived through all of this came away with a clean slate, he must know what is going on if he were not in any boehler. deneen bridges after him. were you surprised -- >> he is a good friend. he gave his eulogy.

as far as i know, he stayed clean. i never saw anything that would implicate him. >> that is an interesting question. in terms of his prison file that had fingerprints on it and sean mccormack or not there. >> remarkable. >> thank you. >> it sounds like there's quite an education anyone could have with this book and i'm looking forward to it. i haven't read the other and i was stopped short beginning with when you said helm masterfully whitey had used the fbi, and i wonder how the fbi was able to exploit whitey bulger and i wonder if you could just say something about that side of the relationship.

>> that's news to me, that the fbi exploited whitey bulger. [laughter] i mean, he gave them some information, but he certainly was the tater on that proposition. >> it was an imbalance of power in the end, and i think instead of the fbi taking advantage of whitey were getting some huge benefit, i think that if we zoom in closer on the certain fbi agents within the fbi world, namely john connally, who was officially whitey's handler and was also the center of the storm, center of the corruption, having whitey bulger getting him to sign on as an informant was a career maker for john connally, who was also from south boston. and the supervisor was a man by the name of john morris. again, also very much in the center of corruption at the heart of this. for them, riding "whitey" come

and his partner also from the mid-70s and on until the late 80's, again, they were career makers. in that sense, they exploited it professionally, they kept them on even when they should have cut them loose and gone after them. as a come individually, personally, professionally, i think it benefited a handful of people. but institutionally, it's turned out to be the worst informant scandal in the history of the fbi. >> and even for the individuals, it brought them all down. he was still in prison, it was a total disgrace. so even though they moved away for awhile and crashed. >> [inaudible] >> two questions pagen of the investigative reporting and research, any death threats?

>> not with him around. [laughter] >> no, the most intimidating thing we encountered i think and i speak for myself is the fbi tried to talk us out of the original story in 1988 about revealing the informant. and they said that she would have no compunctions about killing us. so that gets your full attention. >> he threatened publicly and i wondered if you guys ran into that. >> it's hard to go back in time to 1988 when in that period the idea of publishing were discovering and then publishing whitey had a special relationship, this informant thing with the fbi peter was meshaal dropping and unthinkable. whitey his reputation as not

only st ultimate stand of the gangster who demanded and required a supreme loyalty, that was his reputation, but he also had the reputation of being the robin hood of the underworld. something charismatic about him and all that kind of thing. so, you know, we were -- it took a long time to even rather our head around it when we were getting close to confirming it and now it's a given, it's accepted -- >> i share with the editor of the globe was we could set off a gang and of the bodies dumped on the front steps i don't think the publisher would like that much. it was a daunting undertaking. it really was. >> i commend you. the other question, billy johnson had whitey in custody at the airport and an order came down from some place to release

him. in your research or in your opinion where did that come from? >> welcome that's always been a confusing thing to me because the obligation was that davis that was the head of the port authorities intervened and between the lines it was bulger reaching the head of the port authority to interfere on that case. but as far as we could tell, that was never documented. and i think unfortunately the trooper may have exaggerated in his own mind the problems until after we encounter whitey bulger. >> thank you.

>> you mentioned that bulger is the one that published in the fbi in new york. [inaudible] was working with the colombo family and there were about 32 murders. he was working with one faction they were fighting coming and he was acquitted in the trial in the state court. it seemed like when they pulled that stunned stunt they were using the state courts to do their bidding because of was less questioning of the federal agents it seems how to manipulate the state courts. what i want to ask about is are we to believe that after james bulger became the fugitive that all of these gambling and drug dealers just evaporated and all the police that were providing protection and the were providing protection just went

straight and all of the criminal activity just stopped in massachusetts? [laughter] >> there's nothing else. i read your first book and all the other books written about this stuff and it's like nothing else is going on any more since he became a fugitive. it doesn't make sense. >> it is hardly the case on the street. there are -- but no one has risen to the level of notoriety or power to replace whitey bulger or to place in the mafia -- >> there's mafia remnants and then but she's man who was rather bumbling and is in jail and those people have taken whitey speed -- whitey's place. >> he didn't create an organization like there were

lines of succession or what not. when he was gone and basically did collapse and it's been reorganized into smaller ways and smaller groups and i can't even begin to tell you who they are because we don't cover it anymore. but i know from talking to law enforcement that there's still plenty of bookmaking and drug-dealing and all the kind of things that whitey had amassed in the central authority and power. >> mika other question as about the investigation on connally he was a problem and also beyond that, it was nobody else in the boston office of the fbi that new about this or was participating. what about the people that pulled the frameup what about those fbi agents? >> you're making a good point

all of the investigations are looking into getting past john connally and his supervisor john morris trying to pass that corruption at the fbi to get the public's arms around it. so we know how deep it ran and all that coming and we have never had a full accounting. it's true. we have had a full accounting that maybe you realize in our book we certainly name of your agents who never were prosecuted, but certainly their names have been brought in and certainly whitey and his associates had them on the pad according to the internal documents in the cross t's envelopes and so on. they were not prosecuted so it's harder to see that but it's in our book, and that is disappointing about this prosecutor as you mentioned from connecticut who came up and prosecuted john connally. we were all waiting for the report that documented and explained in full detail. >> was promised, too.

whitey means seven agents who took so many from whitey bulger, and it comes from the law enforcement debriefings. islamic leader the statute of limitations had run on some of those crimes and so they ended up not being prosecuted. that's one of the things in a way that i look forward to with whitey's trial scheduled for june. and whitey's defense attorney, jay carney is one of the best in town and is doing everything he can to make it ugly for the government and i am okay with that in a way because i'm hopeful that we are going to find out some more about the fbi and the institutional corruption. that is a point i want to know more about because that's the thing that ultimately matters or should matter to most of us. they are the cops. we expect the bad guys to be bad. but what about the copps? you know. >> i have plenty of questions.

one of the things they did in new york city especially and sometimes new york state is the form a commission to investigate the police because by their nature they have so much power over us that they become corrupt. it's the nature of them and they do a lot of bad things. and there's never as far as i know in their recent history than any investigation of the police department in massachusetts with the fbi. and in fact as far as i know, there's never been an investigation and the fbi national the which is another big problem. so they get into a place where they are doing so many bad things and they get away with it and it becomes normal. and it's criminal, but they are doing it and its normal. so, why isn't there any push? or the devotees blue-ribbon commissions to investigate police heroes. >> the scale is so much

different. there are 22,000 police officers but you raise a very good question. i am convinced from 30 years of investigation if your work directs boston it has to be on the table. that's probably too sweeping and i'm sure that there are exceptions. if you don't take in those scores, you are frozen out, that's the way that works. >> that is a question for the governor or someone else. >> i'm serious, journalism can play its role. its role is to, you know, in theory ideally to be the watchdog and regional things but we don't have subpoena power. we can't call commissions. and it's an important role the

globe please and continues to play is to uncover these things and then it is a handoff. some other part of our space process is to take up. >> i think one of the hardest investigative things that we did was to find that there were a true drug detective's in boston because what is a drug dealer to do when all of the money and all of the drugs are on the table and the police come in and they scoop up. what is he going to report his illegal drug money to? so we were able to document that. it's very hard and the boston police department is very hard on that. but those cops went to jail. >> i agree with you there is a problem and that is my question if we can get this done. considering any group of citizens can go to court with five or ten -- >> thank you.

>> where were they? >> on that same coin, the fbi or the good guys because initially of course the intent was to break up the italian mafia -- i'm sorry. sorry. the whole time that whitey bulger was on the run, mostly in the boston area we kind of knew that if the fbi or the federal government wanted to find him they would have found hampshire and that there was a reason that they were not finding him. now refusing to back and i think it might have been in your bucket, governor -- not governor at that time, but she was the federal prosecutor that was overseeing the entire project if

you will and that there was a cop that actually made his way into his office to talk to him because at that time the state police in massachusetts and they were very clean copps. they were the watchdogs and they shut them out. then he became governor and it was kind of interesting. i worked with the legislative service bureau and every time he would do an interview his back was always against the wall ironically enough. my question is do you remember when the federal committee was formed and they brought billy bulger in and he pled the fifth on every question do you remember that? >> as a grand jury investigation that had been convened in part to find out who if anyone is

helping whitey stay out there and initially he took the fifth. but then he did testify. he had to testify before congress because taking the fifth in front of a grand jury in the university of massachusetts. so anyway, he claims he had one conversation with whitey and that was it. >> but it is all we can document. >> really? it's amazing to brothers that grew up in boston during that time and there is no evidence that the two of them never had a conversation? >> there was one there was documented. and we write extensively about there were plenty of conversations documented between

whitey and the other brother, jackie bulger. but they didn't need to talk to bill, they got jackie talking. >> billy ran at from the state house and whitey ran at on the streets, and very effectively as a matter of fact, and if you passed off billy you were shot off and basically had no income and if you applied to him then he put you in a nice job or whatever. but the point being that it's interesting with the prosecution because can you imagine the nuggets that are going to fall out of that? bill was and realized -- nobody talks about him. as the mccuish got to get to some questions i think. >> sorry. [laughter] the point being i guess my question is well billy ever be

prosecuted or do you think, not having anything to with his brother whitey but on his own? >> there is a chapter on whitey on the testimony before congress that is highly questionable. there is reprisal legislation that targeted a state police commander who was after whitey that would have forced him to retire and take a reduction in pay. bill's position has always been that he had nothing to do with it because he doesn't know where it came from and there was none of his doing. on the other hand, in his debriefing, the enforcement said whitey went to bill and asked him to put this in as a budget amendment. so that is in the book and you control your own conclusion you want to believe. i'm sure bill's argument would be how can you trust him, but he

was debriefed on the basis that he faced capital punishment trial, so there is that. >> i'm sorry. >> can we get to another question? >> [inaudible] somebody else from the globe, a couple people from the globe recently published something about whitey. what's going on with the song and dance that whitey is to bank and the letters? you talk early on about whitey and wanting to be in control, and i have a feeling that he is. >> does anyone know what he is

referring to? the globe has been running stories in connection with their book about whitey, but one of the things they've been running about is they have a relationship with a former inmate by the name of richard sunday who is whitey's pal and alcatraz. we interviewed him in our book as well but whitey write him letters and richard gives those letters to the globe. it's like an open microphone. whitey gets to talk at nauseam come and there was another version of it today in the story. so -- and he gets to talk about what i call what a good bad guy ibm. soa and richard sunday is an old pal and he lets the word out. there is no question the letters have value and there is news in them. but like i said, there is also a time to step in and take the microphone away a little bit, and that may be some perspective

yes, ma'am. >> i will do it from here and talk about -- [inaudible] this dichotomy between bill es and whitey is -- bill is an accomplished man on the right side of the law. i think that i read he knows a greek and latin and is very accomplished and has a very leered career in politics and outside politics, and then you have whitey. do you have a way to account for how these guys did this in their house? one went this way and one went the other; and do you also have a read on how bill might feel about the brother from the wrong side of the tracks? >> that is layered in the book throughout in terms of their incredibly close relationship.

>> they still have a close -- >> unbelievable. it was astonishing to realize how far back and how tv and how we were able to document that back to the housing projects when they were boys and a bill being the number of the two. i think it is a lot more complicated than you began describing. there is a good bill and that the whitey. they are both accomplished in their field and i think they share a lot of the same traits. >> do you feel that whitey wanted to get talk to the cocotte, that he wanted to turn himself in? it's hard for me to believe that he lived in california in that unit with all that was going on now? was that time that he turned himself in basically on this? >> i don't think so.

>> so someone did get a million-dollar reward? >> there's a lot of skepticism being voiced in here about how things seemed to have gone down, and especially after his capture. you know, the fbi was standing up for the big high five. they finally arrested the man and nobody believed him. we are still hearing it tonight. we were not able to find anything that would contradict the way it happened, nor has anyone else. it happened the way it happened. but i think what it reflects is that when it comes to whitey bulger, the fbi has of celaeno credibility. so instead of a parade, they were still taking it in the chain and to this day they are. that reflects the depth and how long and how deeply indebted the tarnished reputation is when it comes to whitey bulger because we are not talking -- that is what makes it historic we are not talking about a single

murder case would investigation was compromised because the agents made a wrong choices on the fly or something. we are talking about a way of life. a culture that went on, and some of us have lived through it and stuff like that. that is what is sometimes hard to fully appreciate or grasp is that it was a way of life and the fbi culture and sure, i think there is a question referring to new york and there were other instances of corruption, but nothing like boston, nothing like what went down here. and i think we are going to be paying a price for years to come. >> i think for the fbi you reap what you sow and this disgraceful performance for at least two-thirds of whitey's life on the whim. i think i will stop with that. >> is there one more question i think we have time for one more. the head. shout it out. >> it's unbelievable what took

so long to find him, that is why everyone is in shock that they did. it does seem like they really were not looking for him. >> that's true. you're asking the questions we were asking and then other people have been asking ever since he was captured. looks like maybe in the beginning there might have been -- when he first went away because there were too many people treacly involved in the corruption. they really were not looking for him kind of thing. but in the more recent years we talked to a lot of people. they were not looking for him because they didn't know what more to do. it's not like they didn't want to find him. i know a lot in the of the ausley and law enforcement. they wanted nothing better. we're talking about a new generation of aging. with a feather in their cap to capture the sky. so, but they had this task force and they always talk the big talk about how every agent everywhere is looking for this guy and that isn't the case.

remember, 9/11 happened in the that is a bigger problem i think dan finding bulger, so the allocation of resources. some of the guys looking for him, they genuinely believe and concluded he was dead. they couldn't confirm if that was their hunch. sometimes there's just a few guys with the lights on in the office saying what we do today, but the kind of got ram up with the entry of the u.s. marshal and i think they made a difference in that last year. one last question. yes, ma'am. >> [inaudible] >> i recognize you. you've been to the fence before. >> we've been to his arraignment [inaudible] and then pushing his luck tends to change the date. my question is do you think the judge, that hasn't come down yet, do you think that he is going to be the presiding judge over the trial?

you do? >> i do. >> i don't. >> not to the appeals court. so it's taking a long time, january 7th. >> they could have said no and they didn't so who knows. estimate he went last weekend judge stearns presided. >> i do think he's going to stick it out. islamic we are talking about there's been a real legal challenge, the presiding judge because when in the 80's he was the head of the criminal division and the attorney's office, so jay carney has been arguing that and the standard and the appearance of the conflict that jay carney says he wants to call him as a witness at all this kind of stuff so if it is an appearance of a problem i think that jay carney is kind of -- [inaudible] >> that is a pending issue right now. thank you so much for coming out. appreciate it.

[applause] >> back to attend this congress doesn't want you to know about how it does business. number four, powerful members of congress in a safe on competitive seats often hold fund-raisers outside of their districts to increase their leverage over other members. number five, congress spends more than 100 billion every year on welford to enter the programs that are not authorized by law, and number seven to cover the general revenue shortfalls. >> if you get the appropriation bills that haven't been done the last two years because the political dynamic that is going on and you go in and say we are appropriating x amount of money and then you look at how many programs it is actually a two for three ander $50 billion. of the programs are funded that

are not authorized by the congress which tells you that there is an imbalance in congress held to be appropriate funds for a program we should be spending money on and it tells you the power of the appropriations committee and of the poor or benefit going back to the state of what is most important. is it most important to actually look at it in oklahoma by the amount of money that i can direct or is it more important to think in the long term what is the health of the country going to be in the long run and how we make those tough decisions cracks and politically it puts you on the losing side of every argument based on the force of here but you have to look hard to explain yourself in the state. >> number seven, the members of congress frequently do not have the opportunity to read the bill they are voting on. number eight, one of the more secret and anti-democratic ways in which congress spends

restricting money and report language that only the members of the committee can vote on or amend. number nine, each year congress spend countless hours preparing and debating a budget resolution that has no intention of keeping, and finally, number ten, the congress circumvents its own budget limits and avoids public scrutiny by exploiting its own arcane budget procedures >> those are all true. estimate the budget resolution we are about to begin that season and the degree. is it a waste of time? >> no. look right now we have a $3.65 trillion spending. the big criticism of the last two years is congress's gridlock how did we authorize spending

$3.65 trillion? we are gridlocked spending money that we don't have on things that are not absolutely necessary. that is what we are gridlocked over so that we can make ourselves look good to our constituency. so there is no gridlock when it comes to spending your kid's future in washington. we've spent 3.6 trillion if we had a budget last year. but we did a continuing resolution that passed which means it is bipartisan, passed the republican house and senate and the president signed it and yet we borrowed $1.2 trillion that we didn't have of which i would contend 600 billion of it was wasted, was literally did no benet directly for the citizens of this country other than those that took the money to read minister or develop or get out the program.

so in all want you could look what they want and say every program stand up with an effective and efficient. and when you see is minimal. and the reason that is so its members of congress have an oversight. members of congress haven't done their job. they turn a blind eye and say it's hard to oversight and besides i'm going to get criticism when i do. so therefore, let it go. so it goes back. now we are -- now last year $350 billion worth of programs with appropriated money that has never been authorized by congress or the authorization has lapsed. so it means the authorizing committees in congress are not working because if we are going to appropriate money whether it is authorized or not, why not just have an authorized and appropriating committees and put them all into one? so we'd hardly ignore our own

rules -- we totally ignore own rules. >> how much fear is there in congress of the constituents of criticism of not being reelected? >> well, i think it runs the gamut. i think you need to look at maybe a larger perspective. i was a businessman long before i was in that position, built the business, i became a physician as an elder in the vegetable. i was known as grand pa in my medical school class and practiced for 25 years. my goal was to be a physician. i wasn't at the risk of my populace other than the reputation of my physicians, my patience. so, if you put it in context it depends on the goal of a member of the house of representatives or the center.

if the goal is to fix the problems in the country, to create at least as good a future for the next generation as we have had, and if that goal is above your personal goal of getting an office that has no variety, power and position, then that's fine because you are going to keep that year in perspective. when you know your number one goal is to position or the notoriety and the secondary goal which helps you get to that goal is to secure the future, what happens is how you value your position on certain policies changes that's not in in pure, that is just human nature. so i make the point in "the debt

bomb" if we are going to secure our liberty and freedom for our kids and grandkids, we have to stop sending career politicians here. >> senator coburn, did you get any hostile reaction from your colleagues from "the debt bomb," or "breach of trust"? >> i'm sitting here talking to you about this and i make those speeches in my own caucus and i do that on the floor. i am okay to take the consternation of criticism of my colleagues if i think our country is in trouble, and it is in trouble. we are bankrupt. you know, there's a great article. if you take a generally accepted accounting principles, the same thing c-span has to operate under, the same thing every other business has to operate under, most county governments operate under, we right now have

$88 trillion of things we have to pay for but we have no idea where we are going to get the money over the next 75 years, 88 trillion. that is about 1.05 trillion more in the bills coming due than what we have over the next 75 years. if you didn't grow the government or the economy at all why would we put ourselves in that position? so the fact is we are now the federal reserve has increased its balance sheet while we've created $2 trillion worth of the funding money, the printed $2 trillion worth of money, and ultimately the pain of that is going to fall on the middle class and the very poor in this country. and it's going to defeat what both parties say they want, and yet we don't have the courage today to make the tough choices even if it means we lose our seat to secure the future for

this country. we put ourselves first instead of the country first. it is not hard. any american citizen if they read back in black, go to the website and reid, there are a lot of common sense ways to save money. just this last week the airports announced, this is a great example, in the federal government this year we are going to spend $64 billion on the i.t. project is. that's 64 billion. the gao says at least half of that will be wasted. it will never get completed, it will never do what it's supposed to do. in back and in black they said you ought to cancel this because it is never going to work. here's how inefficient the government is. this last year they canceled it,

finally. another $180 million before the canceled. they paid a settlement fee to cancel it of $8 million. but two things didn't happen. if a person that was responsible for that contract didn't get fired and was not held accountable, and the company that didn't provide the service didn't get sued to get our money back, the taxpayers of this country. nobody runs their household that way. most of governments don't operate that way. but we are totally incompetent when it comes to spending america's tax payer money. so why do we continue to waste $32 billion a year on multiprogramming that don't work for the federal government? ..