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♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ medco along these television companies support cspan2 as a public service. >> good evening everyone. i in new york historical society president and ceo. and i am thrilled to welcome you to tonight's virtual program the words that made us, americans constitutional conversation. 1760 -- 1840. i am particularly grateful this evening for the wonderful work sponsoring the program tonight. i am also delighted to welcome guests and to thank you for your great partnership. just before i introduce my speakers i want to recognize and thank new york historical

trustees who are joining us this evening. first and foremost the outstanding chair of our board of trustees, the chair of our executive committee richard and trustees goldman, kain, suzanne pat, and tonight's -- one of tonight speakers akhil reed amar will be joining us momentarily on our virtual stage. i would also like to thank the chairman's council. we are so very grateful to each and every one of you for your encouragement and support especially at this challenging timeur. well then, we are pleased indeed to welcome akhil reed amar back to our virtual stage. he is a professor of law and political science at yale university. before joining yale's faculty he clerked for judge, now associate justice stephen breyer. he was judge on the u.s. court of appeals for the first

circuit. akhil reed amar is a visiting adjunct professor at columbia law school and author of the recently released book the words that made us. americans constitutional conversation 1760 -- 1840. joining us as moderator this evening is richard brookhiser senior fellow at the national review institute. senior editor of the national review author of numerous books including give me liberty, a history of america's exceptional idea and john marshall the man who made the supreme court. curator for new york historical 2004 expedition alexander hamilton the man who made modern america. i was delighted to be able to work with him back then. and in 2008 president george w. bush awarded him the national humanities medal and a white house ceremony.

tonight's program will lessen our including 50 minutes for questions and answers. your questions can be submitted via the q&a function on your resume screen. in the interest of simplicity say the check -- and close the chat function tonight's a place which is a q&a. our speakers will get to his many questions as time allows. and now i am happy indeed to turn our virtual stage over too tonight speakers. thankk you. >> okay thank you louise. thank you akhil reed amar for joining us. it's always a pleasure and archery part of the new york historical society. it's always to be with professor akhil reed amar i will call him a bar for the rest evening he's a dear friend. he has written this terrific book words that made us america's constitutional

conversation 18 -- 1760 to 1840. and your book covers a lot of things you would expect to be covered in such a book. you talk about the federalist papers you talk about the constitutionalpe convention. i think a lot of the real richness of this book and whatbo impressed me so much about it is it's richness. it's things that may be less expected may be a little surprising. yi want to start with two words from your title and your subtitle. i want to start with the words and conversation which maybe is not the first thing people would think of when they think of thef constitution in its history and development. so what conversation are you talking about? who are the people in it?

what kind of thing are they saying? >> they begin as a british subjects in the new world. by talking to each other in newspapers especially but in letters, face-to-face conversations, they talk themselves into becoming americans. ththey began to realize whether they are up in massachusetts, down in virginia, or in still other colonies my story begins in 1760. begin to understand what they have in common with each other. they are talking to britain initially. they see themselves at the beginning of my story as a british subjects in the new world. they are trying to persuade their brothers, cousins, friends and britain that britain is not treating them well. and yes, i think some people may

be don't focus the idea of conversation. but the constitution is a text. so it is words of course. but it comes to life in a deed and ordained constituting an act. that act is not just putting the document to a vote. an ethic vote up and down the continent of which more people were allowed to saint leo rene then had ever been allowed to vote on anything significant in world history. but it was not just a vote for it was a series of conversations. it was a dialogue. some people for the document other people were more against it. people in the middle were on the fence and listening to both sides. and newspapers for you are a journalist. newspapers in the print media are indispensable to this democratic projects.

they are talking initially about becoming americans. that will become the declaration of independence. and then eventually talk themselvesen into becoming into visibly americans. one nation, indivisible that is the constitution. they do it ethically through words, through pictures, political cartoons. some very high polluting things the federalist papers some really simple stuff poetry, limericks. it is an amazing, inclusive, robust on inhibited wide open distinctly american experience. >> like a free-for-all. we are talk about morewe than jt the big names. and you do cover them. you cover the people on presidential placemats and the people in our wallets, and our change purses. but this is a much bigger

conversation the cast of characters is much bigger. >> it is. and so for example act one scene one is a pretty big name but he is not a household name, james otis. as a firebrand of the american revolution recent new england's patrick henry and he was patrick henry before there was patrick henry. i tell the story in that chapter of three people who are going to be significant over the next 15 years. my story starts in 1761. one of them is skeptical of the people who will call themselves patriots. he actually is the most in americanyalists born loyalist on the continent by 1775. and what b is stunning is that most people even really read people do not really know his name or don't really know his story.

his name is thomas hutchinson. he's going to become the royal governor of virginia of massachusetts excuse me it's my story delete begins he is american born. if you had asked someone as late as 1770 or so definitely 1765 which of these two famous boston born smart people going to end up supporting american independence and who is going to end up siding with the king? and benjamin franklin thomas hutchinson bothnj boston born bh very smart. people might have said franklin's going to end up supporting his illegitimate son is the royal governor of new jersey. and hutchinson will side his fellow new englanders or something. lots of people more obscure but i picked hutchinson in particular because i want my audience to see there was another side even to the american revolution. thomas hutchinson were alive

today he was not a demon at all. my analogy he is harvard educated, he is sober, he is a traditionalist party believes in hierarchy. he loves his country but his country's britain. he left his hometown which is boston. if he had been lucky enough to been born 20 years early he would not have had to pick between them. but he does and he ends picking his king. so i do try to widen the cast of characters beyond the big six the first for president washington, adams, jefferson, madison plus of course franklin hamilton. >> you just mentioned cartoons and you also mentioned benjaminn franklin. so in a wayay your title almost sells your conversation short. it's also images involved in this. rateha this great cartoon that franklin generates very early on in the conversation.

>> he is such asa genius. he invented bifocals. he invents the franklin stove. he invents the lightning rod. he invents social institutions of first secular institution a lending library a philosophical association. he also invented world first real's political cartoon. it is not from britain very democratic culture. it is simple the picture is 1754 the picture of a snake that is cut up into pieces and he has a slogan as a first viral meme join or die in 1754 is in color except to work together, we are the mother country we have in

britain defeat the friendship. this is in the early stages of what will become of french and indian war. on that very same page in 1754 of the newspapers he is a newspaper magnet. if he were alive today might be something like that paren very same page there is a picture of the snake and this viral meme # joint or die. in effect is telling his audience about a young 22-year-old military officer from virginia, two. customer to hear from him again. joint or diet cartoon which is so simple. it is easy to replicate. a cartoonist up and down the continent start toon copy it sot

of reach weeding today. printers don't really pay a lot for content yet for the not paying scribblers like you and me too write stuff. the proceedings of local assemblies also republishing things it appeared elsewhere. if you are in new york reprinting some from philadelphia or boston or london. and this join or die image goes viral first in 1754. but then ten years later when the colonies are beginning to unite against london has eight rebirth. then ten years after that and has a rebirth he hibernates and then he reawakens like a

phoenix. he reawakens back in franklin philadelphia which is going to involve joining against britain. if you don't joint you will die. and eventually this meme is going to be the single best federalist argument for the constitution. we have to hang together otherwise britain will cut us ti pieces, or france or's pain printed geostrategic argument for indivisible union.li and my god, franklin is seeing a version of that a more british version of that as early as 1754 pre-puts it in a simple picture that ordinary people can understand and three simple words that make a powerful political argument, joint or die. he is inventing -- mckee is

imagining twitter -- how many characters is not 140 but it's instagram it's amazing it's snapchat. >> 130 characters. but he is smart enough to stop when he is ahead. we want to get back obsolete to george washington. you race your very important point. which is america's constitutional development and conversation is not just happening entirely within our own. it's alsown being impacted over and over again by the world. us more about that. what is our position in the world have to do it our thoughts about how we govern ourselves? it's affected by oceans right? or wrong? works we are if we join together but if we don't were going to have land borders between south

carolina, north carolina, north carolina and georgia. georgia and maryland and the mason-dixon line in pennsylvania, new york, and son on. the genius of franklin and eventually washington and hamilton the atlantic ocean will be an amazing moat that will protect us against the old powers of europe. but only if we unite and don't fight each other and europe can place up against each other andr a divide and conquer fashion part we have united policy towards the west and make it an american domain and national domain not virginia's backyard or pennsylvania's territory or connecticut evil is a piece of what becomes ohio. so the western reserve. so yes americans as early as

1754 franklin washing the possibility of a world at war. in the constitution comes out of our revolution as a part of a larger global struggle. our audience is very impressive, very sophisticated historically. of course if you ask of them to the first world war start? they would say it start in 1914 in the european falcons. no. it started in 1754 in america's backcountry when a young officer named george washington gets involved in a confrontationt between the two great superpowers of the world france and england. that is going to eventually the thing that happened in 1754 connected to joint or die in a thing called the t albany congrs

which some of the colonies get together is going to become the world's first global war. sucking in the two great powers -- but the two greatest powers in other european powers involved in the action. this work will be called the french and indian t war. the rest the root cause of the seven year war involves conflict on multiple oceans and multiple consonants in the new world and the old world simultaneously. it's going to culminate in the massive redrawing of the global map. canada will move from the french call into the british. h and no conflict in world histy before had ever involved multiple continents multiple oceanic struggles. it is the first world war and at the same time it is in generating that world war, a

world conversation. warships could move trips more quickly than ever. but trade ships can move newspapers back and forth more easily than ever. london newspapers are being read in austin boston newspapers being read in london. both of them are being read in philadelphia, new york city, charleston. you are beginning to have actually a genuine world conversation. it is a conversation about constitutional first principles like what should be the rules for the empire? and britain having one candidate is going to have to pay for this really expensive war. and they think it's only fair that americans chip and they are the big beneficiary we just got rid of a big french threat to the british colonies. they're going to start imposing taxes immediate after wars and. the seven years were conventional begins in 1757, ends with the treaty of paris in

1763. but the aftermath of that to pay for that war britain is going to try to tax america that's seventually going to lead to the american revolution. and the american revolution is going to be the continuous world war. eventually france is going to jump back in. and again our audience might know in that they are very sophisticated american revolution the war for independence was part of a larger global struggle. britain has to defend colonies in india, and africa yes to keep troops at home so the french will not invade. we might think we won the battle of yorktown. there were two french fighterslu on land and sea for every american even at yorktown. we are part of a larger world struggle. and at the time we are puny 3 million americans at 10 million bricks, 30 million french.

>> washington noa starts all of this with his frontier fracas. but by yorktown he is there commanding the american army. and then in the next decade he will become the first president of this new country. you have him and you praise him as a constitutional thinker. this might strike people as a little odd. we note george washington was a brave man. we think of him as a great general obviously we think of him as a great executive. but he did not write any federalist papers. he did not write the declaration of independence. he was at the constitutional convention but he hardly said ndanything. and yet you identify very important constitutional

thinker. so what is his contribution to this conversation? and how does he make it customer. >> substantively and methodologically he is the indispensable man. without him there is no constitution that looks remotely like the one that we have. so first let's take the idea of conversation the method point. speak in a conversation beating someone to listen. washington is not a great scribbler. he is not a big talker or a great writer for a pamphlet. but, he is a very good listener. he brings people who disagree and listens to both sides for it as a president is going to have hamilton on his right and jefferson on his left he has work councils and listens to his advisors. and actually he is a good generator of words.

but he does not write up ads or pamphlets. hhe writes letters to people. he is a wonderful correspondent. and his correspondence in turn, pun intended, they are like network correspondence today for they are giving him intelligence, information from all parts of america and eventually across the broader priests affect asking lafayette is happening in france, so he writes more and receives more letters than just about anyone other than thomas jefferson i think. audience can confirm this to look at the national archives founder online database which is free to everyone and word searchable. you will see how many letters go back and forth to washington. he is a wonderful listener. he is unanimously elected president. everyone votes from even the people that vote against the constitution vote foro washington. he has unanimously reelected in part because he is trying to listen to everyone and unify the country and hold it together. the symbol of h union.

now substantively moving from meth and he listens to everyone and he is sober and we love jon adams he wrote a great book on the adams family but jon adams is not always the world's best listener pinky might think jefferson is great, thomas jefferson is so ideological cannot hear what he does not want to hear, sound familiar? we have that problem today prim so impressed that washington who does not have strong ideological commitment says let's get to the facts. i want to hear both sides carefully and then i will make up myea m mind. so jefferson is not the world's best listener. jon adams is of the world's best listener i. some of these people are better at projecting. but what is washington's substantive idea? union. just like franklin understands

it join or die. on the very page the joint or die appears in may of 1754 print on that same page as a reference to the young officer george washington. benjamin franklin talk about age 22.ashington at he understands from a military point of view that unless the colonies hang together 1776, they are done for. it is a continental listed. tawho is that it's the hand throughout the american revolution? pretty early on, alexander hamilton. alexander hamilton to borrow a phrase, alexander hamilton is not just about massachusetts the way jon adamsus might be or virginia the way thomas jefferson or james mattis. he does not have a single loyalty to any one state although he ends up coming to new york.

he comes from abroad. he loves america as a whole priests going to help summit into existence and the key idea is union, join or die, national security indivisible unit which washington is advocating for in the early 1780s of the continental us are far more influential make an geostrategic argument to hold together. we don't need a big army will kill us as long as we don't kill each other got a get rid of 10 million people they beat france with 30 million people. how did they do that?

hamilton jefferson not so much the strong individual union between england and scotland that's only the model for the more perfect union of america. at the different kingdoms mary queen of scots is getting involved. that leads to liberty first, last always. he understands says that during the revolutionary war with got

to move beyond state sovereignty. he says that in the farewell address, written by largely hamilton. he lifts up to everyone in the big ideas were all americans we are seven or who understands the north and understands time in the west. he is the embodiment and the continental army is really the only genuinely continental institution that exists. the continental congress, the confederate of congress is very local basically. so it washington is the embodiment of americans. he is franklin's stake. >> there is another virginian another veteran also linked to washington and to hamilton. who outlives up both of them not only outlives them that stays in office and many years after they are gone. and that is john i marshall. what is his role in this

conversation? quick so you mentioned to the audience we are friends. one of things i'm most proud of but i'm proud of my work as an author. i also proud of my work as amused. i try to inspire other authors, my favorite authors. and i try to learn for my favorite authors read both you and i really respect gary wills his interested in images i do that with cartoons. but i encouraged you early on to write a book about lincoln for i this only 18000 books written but he said we need another one by you. lincoln's relationship to the founding and i love that book. i think i helped her with the title founder's son. >> you did. >> i gave you a title i then told you write about john marshall, you did you didn't use my title though. my title for that one was the

last founder. and yes actually madison outlives marshall by a few years. but madison has been out of office since 1817. and he dies in 1836. and marshall predeceases him. but marshall is in office as the chief justice for 34 years or so. so he is the last founder and that he is continuing to have an impact to the 1830s were hamilton i'm sorry matt -- franklin dyson 1790. and washington dies in 1799. does not sit in a century. and hamilton is killed in a duel in 18 oh four. and famously adams and jefferson are going to die on july 4 the

50th anniversary of the declaration of independence. but throughout all of this marshall is in power and what is he doing? he is vindicating marshall's vision for he is the great nationalist carrying forward a continental sprag of george washington under whom he fought with whom he served at valley forge. if you are at valley forge we have a washington and hamilton, you understand we need money, we need to support the troops. if we don't we are dead. adams was in therapy jefferson wasn't there, madison wasn't there but they do not feel in their bones the way marshall does. he has immense respect for washington trees washington's first biographer. and has an interest back for hamilton a brilliant lawyer and

marshall used the hamilton's legal idea about the bank and many other things. and one other thing he does, he is a national speaker also can be a good listener. i talked about l relationships between some of the founders jefferson and madison adams makes enemies he teams up only with abigail he first hates thomas hutchinson. and then he's going to feud with hamilton even though hamilton was trying to help them in various ways. he starts off friendly with jefferson t but then they become rivals. teams are important pre-jefferson and madison teamje up. hamilton and washington team up. and marshall finds a team make the great joseph. on the teams in america at work particularly well when they

combined north and south. in particular massachusetts and virginia. so marshall is virginia story is massachusetts. think about all the other, virginia, massachusetts teams rhetorically james otis from massachusetts and patrick henry from virginia, your first president and vice president going to be george washington and jon adams and they work together in 1776 buried by the wayon so did jefferson and adams again virginian and massachusetts person. adams is vice president is a virginian. thomas jefferson. one of jefferson's vice president is a massachusetts guy and he is also going to be one of madison's vice presidents. the north-south team of a massachusetts and virginia is important.ou the answer to your question about john marshall he is the last founder. he strengthens the judiciary. he is out washington man, a

hamilton man, a continental us he and story together make a really impressive team just as washington and hamilton do and just as a madison and jefferson do. >> i think it's fair to say both of us and we are not exactly members of the federalist party were very sympathetic to it. this is an animating we been talk in the last few minutes. say a good word for thomas jefferson. >> i agree with what you said. but after all he is hilly it is. what does he add that is precious? >> let me had been sent as a young person i adored jefferson and was very skeptical of hamilton. he and other people change my ideas about hamilton to change

my idea about hamilton. an idea about hamilton rices gassman age 20, we were real college together. i said i am a lucky enough to ever have a son i'm going to name them jefferson. semite views have changed. especially the young jefferson. he is such an idealist. he dreams of a world that could be better. he is the architect will become a northwest ordinance that proposes initially to end assignmentot not just in the northwest but all western territories. and he dreams of an america that is open to talent. smart kids who are not born

privilege because of their native ability and academic aptitude. he inspires ordinary people with his belief in ordinary people. and all his impressive attributes this not get the common man. he is a little too stiff and thomas jefferson. from a geo- perspective, thank goodness for he lots of silly things truthfully. but when he is president and npower he doesn't do separate custody smart things. and one of the smartest things he ever does is double the landmass of the united states. the louisiana purchase is an epic achievement. yes it is completely consistent that you strategic idea. and i'm not sure the federalist could have done that. french like jefferson.

he likes the french. he is a wonderful buttering people up. so i am not sure napoleon would have ever done the deal jon adams. jon adams might have found a way he did find ways to annoy napoleon he celebrant and blunt spoken yankee. he found a political party we have to respect people who are good at what they do. he pretends he's not appalled what she really is. a madison is more openly political. they m make an amazing political partnership and they create a dominant political machine that will basically any champions of free speech, really important. jon adams does not get free speech. thomas jefferson gets it a lot. his partner madison gets it even more per the champions freedom of speech against the act against jon adams for the going to form a political party that will be the dominant political party all the way to abe

lincoln. you and i people have to respect that. he creates a newspaper empire of affiliated newspapers that support his way of thinking about the world parties secretly funds. in that respect he creates fox news network. he understands the democratic newspaper culture of america. he's always telling madison, coat write op-ed against hamilton o. ripped them to shreds. he is too good a newspaper scribbler. you've got to go after him. there is a reason the guy is on mount rushmore. now, i criticized him something that is really important to me, slavery issue. he gets worse over time party founds a political party that is basically has a southern base.

here's the relevance of this today. today there is a party, both parties had to some just talk about the republican party. i am with liz cheney. i think in the end you have to protect the soul of your part of the conscience and you can't get into big lies. i respect her for that. i see the pole on the other side were going to lose votes to single thing they know it in their heart they know it in their bones in order to defeat jon adams whose made criticism a crime they create a party. that party has a southern base. they are politicians that watch the political bed we made. we are going to lie in it. if it requires some compromises okay. they get worse on slave even though deep in their bones they know it is wrong.

i respect their idealism but in order to keep the political machine operative may become increasingly proslavery. consistent told by their biographers you felt better than anyone else in your book on james mattis. you say on slavery madison disappoint scott add to that is getting worse over time at the end of his life since no let's send a slaves out into the west. spreading the virus will somehow cure the virus. this is the opposite of what jefferson and madison said early on let's prevent spread in the west is going to trigger the war and the west. so washington gets a better as time goes on. he realizes it is wrong his last will and testament jefferson

doesn't, madison does it. franklin gets better on slavery as time goes on. his last acts i tell. >> tell that lester frankel before get the questions. it is so funny is just a great story. excellent talk about these great man i kill them all off pretty give you the death scene dramatically i love them but they did die. i tell you how each one in-depth there is some deep idea there. and for both washington and franklin their dying breath is basically emancipation abolition we should get rid of slavery. washington does that he is a quiet guy pretty doesn't make a big scene about it. he does it as a business person, a plantation owner the freedom of his own slaves.

who is franklin? he is a newspaper guy. he first proposes to congress pretty writes a petition is head of anti- slave abolition society that congress should do to the maximum extent possible congress should diminish slaves. the people from georgia and south one guy at what does ben franklin about the constitution democratic culture some of the arguments why we should preserve slavery made by the georgians put me in mind of something that happened 100 years ago.

and there was this slaveholder who actually was defending the enslavement of the infidels christians. and every single argument the georgians made makes this up of course. or enslaving white european christians. somebody has to do the work. they are better off here who wants with a lesser blood. and holy scripture authorizes this. and actually this is good for them. it's a positive step. he takes every one of the georgian arguments, grips it around racially. at some brilliant it is the same guy 16 years old, pretended he was a middle age matron.

fifteen years old he spoofs his own brother who runs the newspaper doesn't realize franklin has created the fictional character britt he does it ate the end and he knows it. he knows that america will eventually recognize this is his dying message to america. do we want to actually, 100 years still be defending slavery the weight 100 years ago and slavery was defendant were people were enslaved were european christians? >> one of the funniest things about that he claims this isn't some book that was written 100 years ago the memoir of some famous diplomat. the people in philadelphia to booksellers y. and so firmly tongue-in-cheek. now we have some questions coming.

here is one. very pertinent to what you have been saying. how did a literacy the american people about between 1760 and 1848? it other words how literate were we? we already literate of us is got to be a base year. exit is spectacularly widespread. female as well as mail. partly because america is a protestant culture. protestants believe, deep --w especially americans and especially in new england which is a puritan. even places like virginia which is more cavalier. new england is more of a puritan around head of english dissenters. if you are a protestant you believe you have to read the

bible. even as someone as late as andy jackson and i have good words to say about andy jackson on some things. going to stand on jackson's shoulders and resisting secession. self-taught he goes to church every sunday and listen to people preach in the pulpit. preach the gospel from the bible. it is a bible reading, bible discussing culture very famously someone like jonathan edwards. even in 1760 remarkable literacy rates among whites. by 1790 america has readers per

capita in thein country in the world including britain. we get for example all the way around america just like you can go all the way from britain. you go through chicago to the great lakes and buffalo crossss erie canal from hudson to new york than all around florida delivered to new orleans and up the mississippi. letters could travel faster. ships can travel faster but eventually going get railroads by the end of my time. 1840. it is a remarkable letter writing and who is franklin?r he is a postmaster. obviously our newspaper guys and

so five of them are newspaper scribblers in the sixth reads more newspapers than anyone around. they are also letter writers. our audience can read these letters free online for the national archive founders online has every letter, or searchable to and from every major founder. and so a remarkable literate culture that includes women too. we don't talk about women and i feel bad about that. adams does have a partner and his name is abigail. because adams is a public servant and he sacrifices himself virtuously for his country breeze away from abigail for a long time. because he is away in france there are lots of letters back and forth. if they had been in the same place happily they would've

loved to been in the same place but they really love each other and respect each other and she is really smartun and fun to re. between abigail it's really a highly literate culture. >> one thing to ask about linguistic diversity in the united states. to these documents to what extent were they translated into german language and newspaper? it's because i don't speak german i did not look at that. one third of pennsylvanians at the time of the declaration of independence in german newspapers are really important as late as the first congress there is discussion about translating congressional proceedings at least in pennsylvania into the germans the muhlenberg's speak of the

house i don't it's frederick as a couple of them. and you may know because right mutual friend who is a great friend of the new york historical society. our man lincoln is the secret owner of a german language newspaper in springfield, illinois. german language speakers are about 10% of the population of springfield. they are all prone lincoln because secretly he's the owner of this newspaper that's always think nice things about lincoln. lincoln at a freakishly early age but he does have books in the somebody reads every scrap of paper and reads newspapers wherever he could buy them. early on he is writing op ed after op ed anonymously many of them are partisan op ed because newspapers back then not out of partisan affiliation. while at the national review today. or the new republic with the

ideological newspapers think the "new york times" is on one side. the watch post. >> they didn't. [inaudible] >> lincoln reads newspapers and rights op ed's. he also owns the german language newspaper. there were german language newspapers. i have hundreds of citations to newspapers. that's one of the big things ini my book. it's not because i'm better than the folks that came before us, lbecause until ten years ago, five years ago there were not online and word searchable and now they are every academic can get for free and historical newspapers i do not have to go to 40 different cities and find molding piles of newspapers i can find them online. the truth is i did not really look at too many of the german language newspapers that are around because i don't speak

german. >> one question what about religious diversity in america during this period? and is that a problem or it doesn't somehow benefit? >> it is a challenge. building on experience even in virginia between the baptist and the anglicans and the episcopalians. today they say that basically all christians. i promise you it only takes two to kill each other. any two things will do. protestants and catholics will do. for 100 years there is warfare in central europe but any two will do.s catholics and protestants, christians and jews, jews and muslims, and it will do.he any two will do an america that

congregationalists up in new england. it is the great, great grandmother of thomas edison by the way. from congregationalists in new england in new york is very -- very many different. quakers in pennsylvania and delaware. a lot of anglo tenants especially in virginia and the carolinas. and then there's going to be new sets by the time of 1840. the shakers, the methodists and more baptist coming on board. baptist more important in virginia and madison befriends the baptist in particular.

so that is a lot of religious diversity. that's going to be a stumbling block. for geo- strategic reasons think we have to hang together. first so first congress even though we recently fought a war against you. in that era catholic and protestant your french-speaking and we are english-speaking. geo strategically useful for us to have you on board. see you do not status in the inback. enema nice letter this is like a membership. you're like a credit card. preapproved for a gold card for

american express or mastercard or whatever. they thanks but no thanks. so americans tried to conquer and benedict arnold comes close but fails. religious diversity is one of the things is going to make a hard for americans. thirteen different colonies founded at different times for different reasons. virginiat is basically about making money and massachusetts is basically about religious freedom. and so when my story begins in 1760 they're not americans but there are virginians in south carolinians and massachusetts to men. but because of newspapers the british tries to treat them all pretty badly with the stamp act and later the coercive acts,

they talk themselves into beating american and basically saying to themselves okay it's a lot of religious diversity. but that can be a strength rather than a weakness. that is where it madison comes in with religious diversity. a fact of the time that many peopleth in geostrategic one of washington to join or die idea. but religion is going to be a stumbling block. and here's one final thing. i don't know if i told you, the two places in the world that are pretty self-governing and free are the brits active union and the swiss. the swiss do not have a single language they have four. they do not have the same religion they are protestants and catholics soo how do they hang together? what makes switzerlandes work? we have got catholics and

protestants in high and low church people in britain. as with the federalist say. defensible borders. you only need and maybe that is defensible you know they've got protestant to catholic that got a defensible border called the alps. we can create a continental union, hang together we will have a defensible border called the atlantic ocean. will not need a big army threatening liberty. we just need a navy english navy has failed to beat the spanish armada. navies are less threatening to people on the coast and the hinterlands less threatening. that is the idea. geo strategically we are one people. even though it religiously were not quite whimpered it has worked for the swiss so we can make it work for america. talk about the swiss and british

example. >> just a brief time for a last question it is an interesting one. constitution never mentions. and yet very soon there were two political parties. >> that is the story i tell about former friends and allies jefferson and adams work together in 1776 begin to diverge and adams makes the crime to criticize adams and inu response by the late marshall does not join adams in that to marshall's credit. he is never all in on the act. but in response to that, jefferson takes a loose c coalition and turns it into a much more organized clinical party. will become kind of permanent political party in seeds of a

two-party system a strong two-party system emerge. after washington passes missing you mentor he's unanimously elected. you are going to gifted the seeds of that in the contest between jefferson and adams. it is going to become institutionalized and a 12th amendment is designed to make the electoral college safer two-party system. there are not going to all the details nobody promise in the book idea. >> we still have it jefferson and madison's party still walks among us. >> is called the republican senate became the democrats. oldest party in the world isn't it? except maybe the tories may be old question of. >> it is. one of the things i actually said about your book on madison is i thought it was a spectacular biography because it captures madison. he had no other job basically except public service. hamilton was a lawyer.

washington was a general and a surveyor and a business person. and jefferson actually dabbled in law and franklin was a printer. this is the only thing that madison does. and he is a party guy pretties creating a party he's not that different than martin van buren or mark hanna or mitch mcconnell or lyndon johnson or franklin roosevelt. i'm trying to pick people across the spectrum. abraham lincoln is a party guy. he loves politics he understands he creates the party. and that is what you get distinctly sourcing right now versus lynne cheney or lindsey graham.

the core principles the kind of thing you will not understand if you think these guys are pure theorists. as opposed to political actor. >> 's not a front up to be hopeful that. madison would be a politician for on the other hand i'm saying politicians can be like james mattis. thank you, thank you louise scriptwriting book tv senate for our newsletter is in the qr code on the screen. to receive a schedule of upcoming programs author discussions book festivals and

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