because we called it like we saw it. and i must say, the official narrative on covid was so far from act accurate that, well, there were a lot of people who did not want us doing it. and again, the name the dark horse podcast, dark horse is one word. bret weinstein and his wife and evolutionary biologist heather high have put out this book. a hunter gatherers guide to the 21st century evolution and the challenges of modern life. we appreciate your i'm heather moran and i'm the ceo here at sixth and i and it is truly pleasure to welcome all of you here in person and those of you watching virtually from home. so by show of hands, how many

you are here for the very first time? oh, hey, welcome. i would love to share little bit about this beautiful place with. this building dates to 1908. it was a synagogue 45 years and then home to an amish for the next 50 years when the relocated and put the building up for sale in the early 2000s, the highest bid was from someone who wanted to it into a a nightclub. within hours, three local real estate developers with new vision for cultural and jewish life in d.c. saved the building. we think it would have been a banging nightclub. and for the 18 years six than i have served as a center for arts entertainment ideas, jewish life. we aim to inspire more meaningful and fulfilling lives, an unexpected mix of experiences that embrace the multifaceted

identities of those we serve. it is such an honor to introduce michelle zauner as we celebrate the paperback of crying in h mart with more than 750,000 copies sold. there are few books in recent memory that have captured the hearts and that have made for difficult conversations around loss. as much as michelle's memoir, emotionally rich. the book is also artfully written with the kind of lyrical prose that results when storytelling is in the hands of such a gifted songwriter, or as a singer and guitarist, michel creates dreamy, inspired indie pop under the name japanese breakfast, her first year. so i think you've of them. her first two solo albums like memoir focused on grief and her most recent album, jubilee earned two grammy nominations.

in crying h mart, whether reflecting on the experience of being one of the few asian-american kids at her school in eugene, oregon or of struggling with her mother's high expectations of her, it's michelle's reclaiming of the gift of taste, of language and of the history that her korean gave her that are especially poignant. as one reviewer in the new york times, i never thought a book could have me to the pantry for snacks. one moment and ugly crying the next. but here we are. tonight, michelle zauner will be in conversation with kat chow, a journalist, the author of seeing ghosts, a beautiful memoir about the grief, her mother's death. when kat was just 13, as well as the experiences of navigating identity through the lens of her history. it was in new times notable book of 2021, an autographed copies are here for sale tonight. previously, cat was a reporter at npr, where she was a founding

member of the code switch team and podcast. huge fan. huge fan. her work has appeared in new york times magazine. the atlantic and radiolab, among others. now, later in the program, we look forward to your questions at that time, you can line up at the microphones, either aisle you in the balcony feel free to come on down. and lastly, as a nonprofit organization, the sixth and i is proud to bring people together community for shared experience is in this beautiful historic space. we rely on your support to make programs like this one possible and to fulfill the financial gap that ticket sales don't cover. so if you're able we hope you'll, consider making a tax deductible donation, help us continue to bring the best in arts and culture to you. you can share your support at sixth and i talk back slashdot eight or ask a member of our team here tonight. and with that it is time for the main event. please me in giving michelle zauner and kat a warm welcome to

sixth 69. who. wow. oh, wow. wow, wow, wow, wow. what a warm reception. yeah. is amazing. thank you all for being. all right. should we get our yoga routine? yeah, we were joking because. these microphones make me feel like i'm about to teach a workout class. um, so, michelle thank you so much for coming to dc to talk to all of us about. your beautiful book crying and it is so awesome and, so meaningful to have you here. thank you for having me. yeah and you know, i was just

reading your book again this weekend and i had read it previously when it first came out as an audiobook. but one of the things that i kept thinking as i was driving down here was how toward the end of crying and smart you sort of refer to the theaters, the venues where you play as japanese breakfast, as your office, how does it feel to have a sold out for the book? it feels great. it feels great. yeah. i think that in a way, being mixed or, you know, having an immigrant family, you sort of always sort of feel outside of of belonging. you have this kind of outsider. and so in a way, these of spaces have have felt like a real place of belonging. me and i really appreciate it. it's completely unexpected to see so many people here, and i'm

very grateful, you all, for for coming. and it's special and it's something that you've made. you know, i that looking at the your body of work your albums and then also crying and smart and how you've that chance to write and also dedicate it to your mother about the experience says that you had with her and her that is just so special and i feel like very rare to be able to do it different formats guess how has you know your perspective on loss through the different ways you tell stories. yeah, i mean i think that writing this book really came out of music suddenly being enough, you know, i think i've always since i was 16, i've kind of turned to creative work as a way to process difficult and you

know, those things became more serious over you know it was sort of losing friends to different friend groups having break and stuff. and so i always kind of turned to art as a way of processing something. so it felt really natural to me to write songs. when my mom died. but, you know, there was so much of a story there and. you know, albums are only like a thousand words and, you know, my it was a very quick process. my mom got sick in, may, and she died in october and my nuclear family really fell apart. and at the time i had sort of put away my ambitions becoming a musician and. i think i needed to sort of sort through what had happened to make sense of it. and so i, i started writing like an essay about it and i realized that there was such an intense story there of what had gone

down and many things that i was really surprised by i'd never read anything that kind of warned me what i had experienced and felt very important to make sense of that, not only for myself, but also as kind of a warning to other people that this was taking care of someone looked like but deteriorate of health looks like. and so yeah think that that was it felt very for me to write about it and different way. yeah to the essay that i reading crying and where the title comes from in the new yorker when i read it for the first time, i was just complete blown away by. how you put two words, just the things that connect us to the people who are no longer there but then also our sense of identity. for me, as a chinese-american, for you, as someone who is korean-american and mixed race,

how important or why? why food? why were you so drawn to writing about that? i think that that was just sort of where i mean, i just thought it was kind of funny, you know, at first i, i just naturally to it. i in all honesty, i mean, i was going to therapy and and it was even after my insurance was like, i think it was $50 copay and i would take the train to union station. i would to you union square and and know it was the whole like two hour ordeal after a busy day at work. and i kind of sat down and had like a cold look at my finances and was like, i think i would be happier if i spent. $50 a week on like a really nice lunch that this therapy because

i mean yeah and i was like if i had like 200 extra dollars a month like i could buy a lot groceries, you could get some nice, nice meat. yeah, yeah. or some nice meat. that's a nice meat. money. yeah, but it's not, it's like fancy butcher. right, right. yeah. and, and i mean, that was sort of like where it came from was i'm going to if i put aside this amount of money and to like spend on myself in a, in a way of like taking care of myself would like, i guess like ever the immigrant's daughter. it was like, all right that, that's more worthwhile. i could have seven mil. yeah so i started going to flushing, going to work there and learning how to cook through monkey youtube videos and when i would go to each march, i would become very overwhelmed by part of it was hearing my mother's

like language and part of it was seeing other korean moms with their kids and you know, when you lose your mom, you like for me at least was very confused if i like wanted a child suddenly or if i to be the child. yeah like, i would see children with their mothers and and it felt very confusing. i was like, oh, i'm no longer a child i want to be a mother. so yeah, i was just very emotional and i would be crying in this grocery and you know, i thought it was, you know, i came up with the title very early on because i just thought it was sort of funny why am i crying in this that i'm not supposed to be? and yeah, and i think big part of it was for a long time, i, you know, i moved out of the house when i was 18 years old to go to college on the east coast. and then i stayed there. my mom got sick when i was 25, and i lived with her until. she died for six months and that was the last concentrated period of time that i spent with.

and so for a long time, i a really difficult time remembering my mom before was sick and that was really devastate to me and i knew that it would be something that my mom would be so heartbroken to know. and i was in a more and i saw an i'll display of like talk which is korean rice cakes. they're kind of like little and it me of popping through which is korean shaved ice dessert and they would sprinkle this these little rice cakes on top and that was like the first memory. one of the first memories i had again of my mom before she was sick. craig in the ice machine and like the summer dress, like kind of over her shoulder. and she was of life. and i found myself kind of just chasing that, wanting to remember before this kind of

trauma mccloud made it very difficult to and so it became this kind of like sort of like this like ritual to commemorate my mother and remember her in this way. that was also very efficiently feeding myself. i mean, it's so hard. we lose people. we to something that is i mean, it it it takes them it kind of takes over them. i found that really hard when i was writing my book to try and understand my mom was yeah. apart from her sickness and i was also only 13 when she passed and so, i mean, i think that's why i turned her into a ghost in my book. but i mean, i felt in crying and smart, you did such a good job of describing her like she's not a mommy mom. yeah how did you go that? and i loved that description.

mommy, mom. yeah. i mean, i think it was a big part of her personality. i mean, i was thinking about this earlier because some people have asked me why if it was like hard not to shy away from her. but i think that the the characters that we really love in life are all very flawed people. you know, i was watching succession yesterday. i feel like we we all which is so great and we all love we all hate them and we love them and we're rooting for them because they're all i'm such incredibly flawed and we all relate to that. yeah, we all like relate to them in there. i always to like relate to the most despicable who's who do you relate to most unsuccessful logan roy. i feel like i'm my cousin greg deep down, but i want to be like, i don't know who i want to

be. yeah, it's like aspirational, like who you really are. yeah, i feel deeply like, okay. um, but yeah, i mean, i feel like the that i really love about my mom, you know, come with like great flaws. i mean, it was sort of, sort of, um, you know comical how, how cruel she could be sometimes and yeah, i mean, it was really important for me i think also just because you know from the outside i wondered if if people questioned my my love for her, our love for each other, because we were so we could be so at each other's throats. and i think that almost part of of showcasing that complicated was wanting people to know how complicated and deep our love ran and that had to be her and all of her great qualities and yes i relate to that so much too because i think in writing about how complicated it this person

is in your case, your mom, you're spending so much time thinking about them, considering them from all of these different angles and trying to trying to i mean, not forgive that's not the right word. but like, i think it in context of my father, whom i book is a lot about where we just have a very complicated relationship but um, trying to write about him, it wasn't just about him, but it was also about the ways i was imperfect. but that was so hard yeah. i don't know. i mean, did you know when your portraits because you wrote you wrote about your dad you wrote about your mom's friend who came to care take a and you wrote about like you wrote about these people with such compassion. but also with such honesty. when did you or how did you know where those lines were? because i imagine that must have been not easy. yeah i mean, i don't think i knew where they were after until

after like a lot of iteration know. i mean, it took a lot of years to write this book and a lot of time away from it and returning to it to realize i mean, the first draft of this book was very different. it was very angry, like very logan, right yeah, i was extremely yeah are we all just trying to write that? jerri memoir? yeah. yeah. oh, and um, yeah. i mean, it was a very angry version of this book, and i don't think i realized how angry was until i had spent three or four months away from it. and it was in the hands of my editor. and i came back to it that i realized how upset i was. i mean, i was just really angry at everyone. i was angry at my father, was angry at kay and myself and, you know, even my uncle david made an appearance. i was mad at him, too for some reason. i realized that he didn't really have a place in this book at

all. oh, yeah. uncle delia with and yeah. i mean, i think rereading it after like spending months away, i realized that this was not a good story to tell. and if everything was, everyone else's fault, i wasn't a very good narrator. and so one of the things that is really wonderful about memoir for me was was having, was being forced to have this sort of like radical empathy worth the people involved. and if i was going to sort throw anyone under the bus, i to be ready to throw my self there too. and yeah. i mean, i think that i had really look at like, why, um, you know, why, why, what was behind someone's bad behavior here? and what about, you know, their past have led them to, to act in that way or where that sort of energy was coming from. it was really it made a much

better story. and i think that it also made me feel like the it was a fair playing ground. and and i think it just took a lot of yeah. iteration to get there and i don't know, it was entirely successful. it was what i strived to showcase was that know in the end, like i wasn't, i had a deeper understanding of where kay and my father were coming from and i had compassion for them and yeah, i wanted to to show that as much as possible. so it felt fair to present them and it felt truthful definitely. and i think that's such a reminder. like realizing that was such a reminder. me how when you're writing a memoir, it's your life, but it's also story. and it took me a to be able to accept that. and once i did, it felt really freeing because i wasn't as scared i guess i don't know. did you did that ever happen to you where you felt so free by

understanding that this is not just your life, it's also just a narrative to, yeah, i guess i, i just didn't think much about other people, like about anything like her. i mean, i thought a lot, but yeah, i tried to just write as honestly as possible, and then i kind of looked to like, see what. what kind of throughline was. but i did feel. yeah, i know. i don't know if i struggled. i'm struggling with it now. certainly i'm writing the i'm adapting the screenplay and. the people involved are very just like it can be anything, you know, like it's a story and i think it is of hard to get out of that mindset. it's like, you know, because as in memoir especially, you have to kind of like mary carr's of the world really like rooting for you to to find to like there this like real potency to like

real truth that i did feel beholden to in a way and writing and writing this narrative that, i feel like i'm having to adjust in screenwriting. yeah. how is this screenwriting going. what's what's like? it's awful awful. yeah, it was really great. now it's awful. but yeah, i'm sure it will be great again. it's going to be great. yeah, it's going to be great. you'll figure it out. yeah. can we ask more questions? yeah, yeah. i mean, it's it's, it's great. it's, i mean, i, it, it's been really fun to great like steal them and make it your own. i mean it's just a different, it's such a different style of writing and really, really fascinating. see how different screenwriters make it literary and exciting i just yeah yeah there's not much dialog in my book and so

learning how to write dialog is really fun and. now that will sharp our director has come in and i think he really comes from more of this sort of theater background and having an actor's perspective been this new sort of element. think like what will make a certain actors excited to play this role? like what in the lines exists that is going to make them cling to to this you know so i've watched a lot of interviews with different actors where they've talked about like specific lines that drew them to a role and interesting. yeah so i mean i watched, i actually watched an interview with kieran where he was talking about how he was originally supposed to cousin greg but something about he just couldn't hear the of this character. but when he read. roman and the first line that he says it's like, what's up -- or whatever. yeah. just like i knew, i knew this

guy, you know. yeah. and i was like, well, that's all it takes. yeah. you're going to have to get some of that dialog is a lot of f-bombs in my script now. good. but yeah, i just it's been interesting because i'm so from the that like theater world and trying to understand it has been really i mean i have a great for it and to write for those kinds of people is kind of exciting and then it's a different type of writing to where i feel like, i mean, you write so well for the censors. so i could you being able to show the visual direction. well yeah i just in reading screen like reading scripts is so strange. i just got the bound copy of the fleabag. oh, and it's like reading it. i'm like, oh, my god, hot priest, where are we going with this? yeah, it all make sense totally, totally where. where are we going now. the the hot priest in a

synagogue. i know. i just got really flustered. i was like, oh. i mean, oh, when i finished your book this weekend and i got toward the end you had this section. i think you had gotten mother's refrigerator, the kimchi and it was stored at your in-laws and you went through it and you found photos that she had saved that almost made me cry. and actually, i don't really cry a lot when i read. so that was really surprising but can i find a passage and read it to you or would you want to read it please? okay. it was so moving. um, so this is when you find the photos, and you're sort of, you're thinking about what it means to you to have these

things from her. she was my champion. she was my archive. she had taken the utmost care to preserve the evidence of my existence and growth, capturing me in images saving all my documents and possession. she had all knowledge of my being memorized. the time i was born, my cravings, the first book i read, the formation. every characteristic, every ailment and little victory. she observed me with unparalleled interest, inexhaustible devotion, um. and then in the margins i wrote even better than a mommy mom. that was so moving to me. and i think that it, it wasn't just because she did this you as you've written, but it was because you did this for her. um, and i think as i, i was about to say as a memoirist, but as writers and as observers, but

mostly as daughters, i feel like that's almost of the, the hardest things that you can do for your mom, especially when she's not there. so i don't know. i don't know if that was also part of it. writing, crying, and the schmear, was it to help sort of, yeah. i think that there was certainly a love letter to her and i think that, you know, this something i began to uncover a bit in the of it was i wanted to i mean i wrote this pretty quickly in way after i mean like pretty fresh after after she had died i had started this sort of process and i think i was afraid of losing it. i think that there were some people that were concerned that maybe it was too soon after

after she had died, start writing this book in a way that i would like kind of the perspective that i would need to write something like this. but i think i was i was worried about losing it and i felt like in a way i was these memories and so much of what was almost like corny to find these photos in the kimchi fridge so conveniently if it hadn't been true, it would have felt like so phony to put them there. they were really there was that, you know, this was a storage container for from it, especially for fermentation for preserving things. yeah. and it felt like similarly i needed to do the work, kind of preserve these parts of myself and also i ever wanted to pass on this huge part of my identity would that without her, all of a sudden felt like no one would believe me?

hmm. that i would have to kind of do do something to, like, maintain part of my myself in order to pass it on. and so that's sort of how this of little rituals b began of like preserving her and preserving our shared. yeah, someone said something to me once after my book came out that just sort of astounded me, but then i almost wish i hadn't heard it where they said something and i'm trying to get right where they basically said grief or losing someone. basically what have of them is the last memory that you can remember and the last time you've thought of it. and so really like your image of someone is the last you've sort of held an image of them in your head and them and i i think when someone said that to me and they

said it way more eloquently but at first i was like, oh yeah, that's but then after i felt bad it's like i was like that's a really painful thing to think about because these are always shifting and changing and i always feel like i'm chasing this idea of my mother and i've written this book, but i still feel as though that's one version of her and what i have now is just know like this different mom that i've always engaging with. yeah. how, how do you feel your relation ship to your mom has, you know, like since publishing this book but also as you've gotten older. yeah. i mean i think a lot of kids go through this with their parent ends where, you know, you start to see them as a human being outside of you. i mean, i think that, you know, you lost your mom so young. so that had to happen sort of later on in your life after she

had already passed of acknowledging that there was a there was adult in her or like that she existed before you were born, that there was there's a version of her that's not just mom. that is individual. and i think that, you know, i lost my mom in this place where i was just beginning. so to see that and part of what was so heartbreaking was was getting a glimpse of that and not getting to spend time when we were just beginning to kind of return to one another as adults had gone through this difficult sort of adolescent period where you're like striking out on own and finding your own independence. and then in your early twenties, you're kind returning to one another as, as adults being able to communicate with each as peers. and just as that was sort of beginning to happen, she died. and so i think a lot of writing this book, a lot of the way that i think about her now is sort of understanding, you know, the secrets of as a sort of person

and, kind of wanting to sort of uncover that. my one thing that i mentioned in the book that my mom used to say was always save 10% of yourself. and i never knew that she was also keeping that from me. and that was really hard to reckon with for a while, because i felt so close to her and i felt i was very much her confidant and and to discover that there were things that she kept hidden me largely, you know, for my own benefit was really hard for me grapple with at first. i remember when was talking to my aunt nami, her older sister. a lot of what she would say is, like, oh, i think your mom did that because she missed korea. so much. like, i would i would bring up certain things my mom would say or did. and she like, oh, i think she did that because she miscarried so much. and i was i remember like in the

middle of that conversation being like, i don't think she was like a as obsessed with korea as, you. you think that she was and later on i realized like that would have been something that probably never would have talked to my and i about because she wouldn't have wanted to feel like she didn't want to be there or, you know, there was parts of her that felt really guilty that she wasn't with her mom when she died, you know, that she missed out on a lot and there was a lot of homesickness that she endured living in, you know, a foreign country and raising a child there. and i think i realized like that was something that she withheld for me to protect me because she didn't want me feel like. yeah, she didn't didn't want to she didn't. yeah. and that person that she would have spoken to about that would have been her sister and why her sister's version of her is, this sort of like person who's like constantly missing korea. and so i feel like i learned a

lot about that as i started to uncover her a person and finding her painting was finding you know that that we were a lot more more sort of similar than she let on. yeah the moment you find your mother's paintings i think that reading that i was like, oh my gosh, just see your mother as an artist too. and to also just see her progression from the drawings or the paintings and to, you know, even like testing out signatures. i found that really special. i don't. did did you have inkling that your mother was, like, serious lee, you know, going those classes or. yeah, i mean, i don't think that she, you know she sent me like when she first started out. i wish i had like a projector show this like there was a really bad pencil drawing our dog that looks kind of like like a hot dog legs.

and it was a little scary. and so i really know much about it i mean that she was going after her sister died she started of taking on more of these hobbies. but i think more than anything, you know, i mean, i don't think she was going to be a painter or like had real serious ambition. but i think looking back, had a real creative and artistic sensibility. and i think as a as a creative person, you're always wondering where that comes from. yeah. in your and my dad is is very not like that and and when i look back, you know my mom had just like i think there were things that i sort of brushed off as like kind of like housewife activities. you but i think that that's just maybe like some kind of internalized misogyny or something. there was a lot of like, um, you know, like labor goes into, you

know, even just like a fashion sense or, you know, interior design or but even just the way that she said things, you know, i mean, she said she had, i think, a knack for like just, you know, and in everyday moments or she she was deeply moved by, a very ordinary, mundane human stories and would retell them with with kind of beautiful detail. and i think that if had grown up in a family or in a time or in a culture that really fostered the sort of like american entitlement that i that i have. yeah a narcissism that i was i raised with that she she might have gone down that path. i don't think that i was able to see that kind of similarity until i started sort of, you know, retracing image and this in this book there is something

so beautiful like i will always think of this whenever i break in new shoes but you mentioning the anecdote of your mom sending you cow cowgirl boots when you put them on your feet, you realize said that she had worn them around the house. yeah. i mean, i didn't even i don't think i'm not sure how it's written in the book, but i didn't even realize that had been. yeah. and was something that was revealed to me years later, that is after i had like already the, the smoothness of that leather. i know she got those calluses. so you have to. yeah. i mean, i think it's one of those things too where like she would have told she would have never even like rub that in my face. yeah. like something that like came up later that i felt really guilty about. that's a good metaphor. like what immigrant moms feel just to, you know, so we can wear our cowgirl boots and yeah and i think that's sort of what i realized a lot of this this

book is about is like it was really difficult for me to understand and how my my mother loved me compared to my mothers and you know my my husband white and he his mom is very much a mommy mom. and if i had been fired or if he had been fired from a job, she would really get up in arms and say something along the lines like, oh, you know, just typical. that's the man. like, you know. they they don't deserve you. and like, of course, they're just going to, you know, take advantage of you, though. so jealous of people who are raised that way. yeah. and meanwhile. oh, well, just right. and meanwhile, my mom would have been like, well, anyone can carry a tray sandwich. my mom. and that was really hard for me growing up. have a mom. like when you're a teenager and you know you're breaking to be like you have a lot of zits right now. you know, you're like, i know

that mom. so yeah, i think that a lot of was recognizing that the way that she expressed her love was very different and was very potent in its own unique way. i relate to it so much, though. i in the first part of your book, you talked about how your mom, when you injured, she would instead of kissing your -- or something she said and i mean, i can't even imagine my mom having done that, but she would get mad at you. yeah. and i feel like that's set. my my husband's here. he would totally also say that i get upset when he like hits his head, right. right on the car door. i'm like, oh, why would you do that? it's great. they're like, never moves. it's the same car door all the time. but it's i get that way with my husband when he doesn't when, he gets sunburned. oh, my god. i know. i you you should have reapplied like you've got a third degree burn from the portugal sun.

what are you doing? i found this photo the other day like my dad took. my dad and my uncles took their daughters on a ski trip and all of us are sunburnt. and i was like, that's such a dad thing to like. not remember. like, if we're with our moms, we would definitely have my gosh, you would not have that goggle. and it's painful too, like wind burn. oh, yeah. but yeah, i mean, i agree, i ended all the things that my mother to that i, i absolutely growing up are things that i do. and the worst part is like when your mother is dead, you romanticize all of those negative qualities that inherited. yeah. when i yell at my husband for like spilling something on the carpet, i mean it's a memorial to your mom. you're like, that's your mom? yeah, yeah. thank you. thank you, mom. i mean, and he can't get mad because. then it's just like he, can't he can't get mad at your, like,

embodying of your mother? no, no, no. so, i don't know. i mean, i think when i see parts of my mom in me, my self and my mom, i'm like a little bit horrified. but then. i don't know, i try and put a spin it. i'm like, yeah, that's, that's great. her sense of humor, mine, it's really nice to. let your parents live on. yeah. meanwhile, if i see parts of my father, i'm like. no, you know, i'm like the hoarding and that's am i like him that tell me no yeah yeah we can pick and choose i feel like that's what's great coming into our own and one of the questions i wanted to ask when i was reading was how you how your relationship telling, which has shifted over the years.

and i know that's something that you're interested in writing more about, but you wrote so beautifully about korean. i'm going to i'm going to read another quote. that's okay. if i can find it. um. well, i don't if i can find it, but you will basically being able to into it different korean words where even if you weren't familiar with them completely or you might not be able to say it and i'm paraphrasing, you kind of knew what it meant just from having up with the language, how has your relationship to language shifted? yeah. um, i would say that i have like the comprehension of maybe a two year old, um, and it's interesting because i feel maybe like to, confident in my korean in this way that like if i go to spain with, you know, like my

four years of high school spanish, i'm like mortified to say hello, you know, because i just know. i sound so bad and stupid. but yeah, i'm korean even if i if i feel very comfortable in like the pronunciation and i know even if it's not perfect, like i feel like i deserve a sort of seat at the table, more so than would anywhere else. and so actually, i mean, it's funny, it's one of those things too, where like i to kyung lah kyo korean school every friday from like i want to say like first grade to seventh grade which is so miserable, maybe even later. i mean, it was just so miserable every friday after school, you want to hang out with your friends, you have to go to the korean presbyterian church and learn a language for 3 hours. and, you know, my mom always be like, someday you're going to. yeah you're going to really regret not paying attention. and and you're like, you don't know me. and now i'm like, --.

and and so actually, for for my second book, i'm moving to korea next year for year to study the language and, i will be documenting that. and i think part of is is it feels like a very natural follow to this book and so much of what was really about this book was, you know, having to go back and remember things that a long time ago and i love the idea of a project that is really rooted in the present and just the everyday progress of something. and i feel like if i don't if i don't seize this language, it will it will completely escape. me and my mother always said if i spent six months to a year in korea, i would i would probably leave fluent. so i'm kind of hoping to to prove that theory. and so excited for that. yeah. and i think also in a way like her sister, her older sister lives there. yeah. we can't speak.

we have trouble communicating because she speaks very little english and i speak very little korean. and i think that i feel like there are a lot of secrets in her that i need to crack. do it. you're going to get like, yeah, i want to get all her hot. yeah. and that is reason why i'm learning this language. yeah. let's give a little applause for that. i mean, that's why i want to learn chinese, too. yeah, yeah. it's like i want all the dirty secrets. i want all the hackers. i want to be able to, like, order the good stuff at the restaurant. yeah, yeah, yeah so i think it's time questions. so if y'all want to start lining up at these podiums audience questions.

okay, this feels like a, like a reality show. i know, what are we you got are we competing? what type of reality we get? like these are like our next contest. oh, yeah. oh, we're like our flavors and yeah, it'd be fun. have like a succession style reality show. i don't know how we all bring that into. i don't know. i mean, i guess we would be billionaire. or somehow. yeah, yeah, that's not bad. that's like millionaire matchmaker is maybe. yeah. you can you can kick off. sure. i specifically, you mentioned the fact that you're adapting your own writing into a screenplay for it, which from everything i've heard from other authors is i think this is impossible. i'm not doing this. this is too personal. i not feel comfortable doing this at all. so i don't the expertise for it. this feels like i'm in an entire different level of being

personal. and because of that specifically with adaptation. know you shot the car a lot in a book. yeah. you've already mentioned fact. you cut out a lot of your own personal story has been trying to edit it down to just a regular novel length. how does it feel like what is a thought process? have you had to like come across? what you think is discarded? well, when already cut down your own writing so much slash has someone told you to your face yet what they is incredible. yeah, that's a great question. um, i originally was like, i originally cut peter out of and was just like, this is a bold move and i'm sorry, babe. and he was like, cool, cool. i got it. and i, i was like, this will focus the on what's important which is the mother and daughter and i don't have to write a wedding and all stuff and i invented this like i didn't invent him, but like i, i put

more pressure on on an old friend to kind of really, like, shepherded me through the, like, getting into music. and then it took like year and three or four revisions for me to, realize like, oh, peter gets to back and that's, that's sort of what i'm grappling now. i mean, it's really i mean, a lot of it is like how you compress, you know, 30 or 25 years of your life into an ideal an hour and a half, which is how long all movies should be. and yes, that very important to me and yeah, i mean, it's tough. i mean, it's it's it's been a real learning process and it's it's pretty boring. but like, i feel like, you know, you learn like you don't to see someone like going through a door or whatever.

like they could just be in the room. they're like shortcuts that you kind of learn like how to compress time and you know, the real struggle that i'm having right now is like how, do how do i get to a show korea like from deciding to quit my job because that was like a it was like a two year period of like getting into music and touring the country and then working my way up to a show and. korea. so yeah, it's figuring out things like that where you just like compress time until like a moment between people talking. but parts of it are really fun. i mean, is like such a unique language and like i was reading, i was rereading cameron crowe's almost famous, which is just such a beautiful literary work and it's so annoying because like even in scenes where, you know, like penny lane goes down the jet bridge, it's penny lane goes down like walk through the accordion, and it's like, doesn't even need to be beautiful. she's just down a jet bridge. and yet he has to go so far to

like create this metaphor about it being an accordion. you know. so yeah it's it's seen like where you can have fun with the language and yeah. like how to dialog spicy do like five different things at once and yeah mean parts of it are really enchanting and parts of it are really obnoxious so thank you for your time. thank you and then. yeah. as someone who has recently been dealing with a cancer diagnosis in the i want to ask like what advice do you have for appreciating and remembering loved one while they're still around and feeling. yeah. oh sorry. i'm sorry that you're going through that. um, i, i think one thing i wish i'd learned that i'd heard long ago was like that the person that has cancer is kind of like the, the nucleus or whatever and the there's like a ring of people that's close around them. and there's like a ring that of people are for they're around them.

and basically that like that person is allowed to complain, to all of the outside, the outer rings have to also complain the outside and it should never go in. oh, that was really hard, me. and especially when it's someone that you're really close to, you really want to sort of tell them how you're feeling or like communicate and it's hard to remember that part of like them and being there for them, sort of shielding them from that emotion. i don't know if that makes sense, but um, and yeah, i also, you know, it's really hard to yeah, i mean, everyone tells you to take breaks and stuff. um, and i don't know, i mean, and i think that that's really important, but i also think that it's really, i'm glad that i was, i was there and. i don't regret the time that i spent with my mom and, and, um yeah, i think that it's important to remember to take breaks, but it's also your intuition is important to follow. and if telling you to be there

that that is okay too. sorry, that doesn't make any sense. yeah. thank you. yeah. and i would add, um, i mean, i was so young when my mom passed, having others who are going through a terminal illness or sickness, um, i always that i had the time like sit down and interview them there's something like i have this compulsion always just want to record and i think i think you do too. i mean, you wrote this everything but i think asking certain questions that you've always just wanted to ask just give yourself time to consider what those are and maybe if there's an opportunity, ask that, then take it. and also record it. take a video or, do a voice memo on your phone because someone's voice is, it's just such a gift. yeah. hi. um, with a great relationship with food and how much you talk about it and write about it and,

like, enjoy it in the moments, even when you're like, whether it's the first chapter of the book or when you go back to korea with like such a busy life touring, i know you like after yourself as an a workaholic of like always doing different. how do you like make the time and space or like what's the relationship when you're like doing stuff like this and how do you find ways include food or do you save that for something? maybe when you're back home in kind, little more. simmer down. go. okay, well, now i'm going to do that again. i also wanted say that book is help me through really tough time and i really wanted to get a persimmon tattoo to commemorate like the book and jubilee everything. would you be willing to potentially like draw persimmon my book? so i love that. i will say i have been to draw a persimmon in books before and i'm very bad at it. totally. okay. and i really don't want you to that on your body. it looks like a really messed up

tomato and you don't want that. you should get real artist, but i will give you blessing. yeah. do i take time? eat good food? yeah. i mean, it's mostly like at home thing. i went, i this is sort of like the midpoint of the tour and yesterday i got to to the korean spa actually. i flew in to laguardia and which is like near flushing and i went to the gym and i like got scrubbed by a woman in her underpants. i got a saw and then when she got to like my hand, which is like my signing hand, i was, oh, yeah. but yeah, i mean, food is such a huge part of that. i mean, i feel like that is that is definitely i like two whole meals which that, that doesn't seem like a lot, but like in a short period of time while i was in flushing and and yeah, that's

definitely a big part of my self-care. thank you for checking in me. thank you. all right. um, hi. you're such a busy booked woman. like, in the best way possible. have your book tour going on movie. you hinted at a second book, which is really exciting. what about music? because i'm pretty sure, like me and like everyone else got to know your stuff. and he's like this. like no pressure. take your time. but, like, where do you see that? like coming back? like, can you hint anything or. yeah, i feel like i really wanted to make an album this year and this -- movie -- movie that movie you can blame the movie for for the japanese breakfast album i. definitely. i mean i definitely identify a musician and i feel like that is like my my prime identity. but yeah, it might be it might be another year for for another record. i have i have been writing in my

you know, i started writing it and i thought i was going to finish recording an album this year, but i probably won't. maybe, maybe you can incorporate some new songs in the movie. i definitely be writing a new song for the movie and i scoring it as well. so yeah, thank you you. as going, hi, my name is roche. first of all, i just wanted to thank you for your vulnerability just as a whole as a musician, i definitely i thought what you meant. you said that with music is a shorthand sometimes for other that feel like they deserve more volume just as a whole. so in that regard how are you able to slash on or slash slash or you'll the enormity of the fiscal emotional grief that you underwent while also still articulating yourself with such prose and discipline like how are you able, you know, to honor the physicality of obviously

moments that overcame you, which prevented us from writing. yeah. yeah. to see we can prevent us from making music, you know, at times and, you know, really find a way to really honor, you know, the authenticity of, what you were feeling. yeah. thank you. full of crying. yeah, i definitely cried lot writing this book, and it took a lot of time and there were a lot of there was a lot of it where i just felt so stupid, you know i mean, i remember writing the lion i remember, like, just like being like, i don't know, how do i how do? i express this, like, enormous emotion and i wrote the line sometimes my feels like i'm in a room with no doors is. and i was like, that is so dumb. and i and then i let sit there and i was like, but that's really how it feels, you know, and sometimes it's a lot of writing lines that like sometimes are dumb and get scrapped. but i a big part of i think a huge part of writing is editing. and like, if if over time you return to something and it's

still good and something that, you know, george talks about, editing is like, you know, rereading your work with like a, like light bulb. and if it turns green, you know, time and time after you visit, it's probably good. or at that's who you are as an artist like that is your level. and if it's flashing red, something is telling you that it needs more work. and sometimes it feels like it's just so agonizing even after writing, you know this book that has done so well and three albums and even when i'm writing the screenplay, i'm i feel like the child, like writing around on the floor, being like, when is this going to get better? there's like this version, it feels like you are writing. like, you know what smart version of this thing is, but you're not smart enough to get it is is just a huge part of the writing process. i think for everyone and it's just constantly struggling to get it a little bit closer until you drive yourself crazy and give up and you're like, this is

five years of my life and this is just who i am right now. and that was the process of writing this book. and so for for anyone who's who's working on their own creative projects, i think that you as hard as it is having having and just getting to a certain point where you're like, this is the best that i can do. and i've put in the time that's that's what we're all doing. yeah, yeah and allowing it to make a home inside of know. yeah. thank you. thank you. hi. thank you so much the last time i saw you you were touring slow dive and playing at the 930 club. yeah. so it was such a beautiful show. and thank so much for your music and your writing. i don't know if i'm going to articulate this well because i haven't really thought about how to say it gracefully. but i think many of us relate to how you articulate, conflicting emotions and as a fellow half asian, jewish and my mom has cancer right now, i just feel

like reading this has been so overwhelming. i've walked around d.c. listening to you read the audiobook and just cried and something i've thought about a lot is a question i wanted to ask you about how you reconcile or reckon with your frustration and any pain and resentment you've had towards your mother in life who could at times be cruel. we know a lot of asian moms can be really mean. mei is definitely that. but when they get sick. i know that you thought a lot about her life and your relationship with and part of that to be your conflicting emotions you know her not being the best mom at times so i'm just wondering how you reckon with those feelings while you were dealing with her sickness loss. yeah, i'm so that you're going through that. it was really hard know i mean i think like i went there wanting

to be this perfect that she always wanted that i somehow could never be. and i think in the process of doing that, realized that there was that you know that that that's not necessarily she want i mean that i you start to see a little bit from their side ideally like why they're like that you know and i think big part of it is just they don't want they don't want you to make the mistakes that they did. and it so frustrate waiting and they could be really trivial things like you know my used to always say like don't make wrinkles and i was like, let me express my face, you know? and now i look the mirror and i'm like, i have a pretty like solid forehead for a 34 year old. you know. and i get it. i mean, it can be so i have

friends like that now where i want to like shake them and be like, guy sucks. like, please him and you can't. people like have to just make own mistakes. and i think i can't even imagine what that's like as a parent to like watch kid do this thing that you know full well is going to go wrong, want to protect them from and i guess like i just, you know, i mean, it's when, when they're gone in a way to see what they were going for like romanticize is like their sort of bad behavior for for, you know, seeing other side of it. but i guess some that became sort of clear with me with time and i also think that like as you get older ideal hopefully they they start to let some of that go too you know that was the case for my mom was like part of it is they just give up a little bit but yeah i don't know if have the right answer for that but i that for me just i tried to just see things more

from her side and you know bite my tongue a little bit more. thank you so much. and good luck i my name is josh and i just want to thank so much for writing the book. i lost my mom went to cancer when i was 24 and now i'm in my thirties and my life is changing a lot. and i'm changing jobs and cities and, relationships and all kinds of things like that and i wonder just we going through this a similar point in life, how do you deal with the fact that like your is changing and exploding and all of these great things are happening but that your didn't know about that and didn't get to share that with you and like how do you i know this is an impossible question, but like, you know, you've had so much success in recent years and how do you kind of, you know, understand that or find make peace with that? like have in the book and feel good about that. yeah i think it's bittersweet

sweet sometimes it feels like i'm always trying to impress someone that's not here anymore i for the brief time that i allowed myself to see a therapist, i saw like a like a union analysts and i was having a really hard time like with something really weird where you know i would bring flowers to my mother's grave and, you know, as a non spiritual person i, i it, i didn't want to, you know, i like logically i was putting flowers on her grave as a symbol for myself to commemorate this person. but yet in so i also needed her to know that they were there and to see them and that like they were $30 or one and you know, my this analyst was like, you know,

it's like a type of suspension, disbelief. you know, it's almost like when you watch movie and you're like in order to interact it, you have to just believe it's real. and it's okay if it doesn't, that against everything that you believe in and similarly i don't believe people believe in an afterlife and that's really scary to say here. and. but i somehow have to suspend my disbelief and that she knows and know i mean, it's also really weird because i you know, was a i was a unsuccessful for, you know, ten years and the album that i commemorating my mother was the album that suddenly everyone decided to pay attention to and the book that i wrote commemorating my mom you know, did so well and i have to believe that she knows and is response able for it weirdly. i mean, there's so many things in a way that that lead to feel that and even though it it goes

against every belief that i have i've allowed myself to feel that way. and i think that that is okay and a good thing thank you much thank you. we have time for. two more questions. so one on each side right? hi, i'm carolyn. i was wondering if you could to your relationship with your father. yeah, my father and i have not seen other in four years he. claims that he's read the book and. you know, i mean, it's funny because i asked like what he he thought of it. you know, my dad is also like very much an open book. and so, you know, everything is is in the book. i feel like he tell a stranger at a bar. and it's funny, like what people

like take issues with. and so for him it was like not the drinking or checking out of that situation or the infidelity, but it was the fact he sold used cars to the military and, not new ones. and that was just a detail that i sort of misremembered that. he had told me about his time and i actually really admired that about because my father was an addict and a felon and he moved abroad and became very successful selling cars. and it was a very humble occupation where really sort of turned his life around. and i just thought that they used cars and not new cars. and so since we've we've talked about it and we do kind of we correspond now, i've had to like kind of put up some boundaries and that's been helpful for our relationship. and it's also been really challenging, but since the paperback has come, the only my sort of olive branch him is that the only change. the hardcover and the paperback is that it now says cars and not

the used in the book because for him that was like a real he felt like i was sort of like looking down on or you know in the car industry you know to sell used cars is not i guess as reputable of a profession or whatever. so yeah, i mean it's it's tough. i don't have my dad had to cope with his wife of 30 years dying in the way that he knew how and that hard on our relationship but it was also um you know like i've in the process of writing this book and even writing this movie i've, i've like found i understand why he had to do what he did even though it was hard yeah thank you thank. oh, boy. i wanted to thank you both for your time tonight. it's like this is really, really wonderful. and earlier there was a question

your records, grief and the enormity, your grief. and as somebody who has really, really been touched, jubilee especially in the midst of a current rough patch. oops, oops. i to ask similarly, how do you remain faithful to these more optimistic hopeful periods in your life, especially? and i'm sure there's like a similar expectation like the indie music space as someone who is expected to be like kind, like sad girl. yeah, i think like how what, what process of accessing these emotions was like for you yeah, i think that part of it was i wanted, you know, the older as i get older as an artist and like more sort of pay attention to the work i do, the more i want to kind of mess with the expectations that people have for me and to be like have this

narrative being like grief girl made want to write this album about joy? but that being said, you know, the songs, you know, there's not like ten tracks of zip a dee doo like i, i they're about joy. and i don't think any, you know, joy in in the same way like i don't think that you are always like feeling it all the time. and so all of the songs on that album very much about the push and pull to get to joy or the, you know, permitting yourself to feel joy or, the, you know how escape all joy is or fleeting how, how fleeting joy. so, yeah, i don't i mean, when, when we first started performing those songs we had, you know, come out of lockdown and hadn't performed music for a long time. it was like such a blast to get to like being a song and sing about the joys of music again. but now after doing that for two years, i'm like really excited. get like really depressed.

i feel like lp four is like going to be like my album. oh, i mean you're logan roy yeah, it's going to be my logan roy album, yeah, yeah. thank you so much thank you, thank you. thank, thank you. thank you. kat chow i'm. i'm so glad that we had the chance to talk, but also that we have the chance to just have so much more of your work in so many different. i'm so excited. thank you. thank you michel you guy

well, joining us now on booktv

is dr. norman horn. he is one of the coauthors of this book, faith seeking freedom, libertarian christian answers to tough questions. and he's also a founder of the liberty and christian institute, which is what the libertarian christian institute mission is ultimately to try to convince other christians of libertarian ideas. and so we do this by making the christian case for a free society and equipping our people to help defend them. and so we do that by creating all sorts of different types of media, things like our book here in order to try and spread the word. is there a natural antagonism between libertarianism, christianity? yeah, well, to some extent we have seen that in the last 30 to 40 years of american history in particular. and what we what we experience these days. but i don't think it's because there's a fundamental incompatibility. it's more bit more like that. the loudest voices in the room aren't always the christians. and so it's important to