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booktv.org. >> now i am pleased to welcome 3 individuals familiar to us who can shed some much needed perspective from the tragedy of october 7th and allen that has unfolded since. coauthor of the best seller start-up nation dan is senior fellow at the council on foreign relations, former spokesman and senioris adviser for the u.s. ld coalition in iraq and pentagon adviser in qatar and adviser to prominent figures on capitol hill. he's a frequent contributor to the financial timesor and the wl street journal other publications too host of the call me back podcast and now the author of a new book the genius of israel. dan is joined in conversation by former u.s. ambassador who has balanced distinguished professional career between finance and public service. he's been ceo managing director

and vice chair of morgan stanley as well as deputy secretary of state and chief operating officer of the u.s. state department service for which he was awarded the nation's highest diplomatic honor by secretary of state hillary clinton post in israel this past summer. their discussion will be moderator edited by bianna gologryga, a senior global affairs analyst and anchor for cnn. prior to joining cnn, she was co-anchor of cbs this morning and good morning america's weekend edition and a business correspondent for abc news. i'm so grateful to them all. would you please welcome dan senor ambassador thomas nides and be honored? golodryga. good evening, everyone.

it's good to be with you on another wise, very somber news subject that sadly i think we're going to be covering for a very long time. dan, welcome. ambassador, should i call you ambassador? no. yeah. yes, i'm ambassador. at least for like a couple more months. he gets it. so as you've heard this is a fantastic book. so congratulations, dan and a great follow up to startup nation, which is a hit book. and so i know that it went to press before october seventh when the world literally changed. and i was thinking about how i would have conducted this interview with you if it had been on october 6th. because there does seem to be a disconnect in the theme of this book, where a young, vibrant, healthy, happy, cohesive nation, as you've found through your research, is now in parallel

with the first nine months of this year where we've seen massive protests, concerns about an existential threat to the country coming from within divisions over legislation and judicial reform, which sadly all seems quaint given the crisis that israel is now facing. so that's where i would have taken the conversation and started off from. but given the current circumstances, i'd like to flip it a bit and help us understand how the israel that you've discovered in this book is most likely going to deal with the war in the weeks and months to come and how they survive and come out after it as a nation. yeah, there's a lot there. thank you, obiano, for doing this. and thank you to streicher for hosting and thank you, tom, for being here. tom, as i was, we were just chuckling backstage. i feel like tom is like the third coauthor of this book because his name's not on that

book by the way. he's sitting there wondering why his name is on that book. but when tom was ambassador to israel, while i was traveling back and forth to israel quite a bit, both to work on this book and for work related things and to spend time with family. and tom wound up we spent too many meals together around shabbat dinner tables or shabbat lunch tables, and we'd often talk about the book. and so i am grateful that he can be part of this conversation. you are right that it was almost like at every stage that we wrote this book, our publisher was saying to us, you sure this is the right time? like, really, every stage now, sometimes their concerns were a little more superficial, like when they sat down with me to tell me that two weeks before our publication date, britney spears memoir was coming out and literally, that's true. you can like i know there's a lot of buyers in here who know that already. but and they were concerned that we were going to be competing with the britney spears memoir. i tried to explain these a

different demographic. we were going after. and then they said, okay. and then they sat me down again. by the way, not to digress. and they said, do you know on your exact pub date, the exact date, our public form of publication date was yesterday. do you know that barbara streisand's memoir is coming out and see now i know there buyers they're buyers of the barbra strike. see, i got a heads nodding and i still felt that we would be okay. and then at one point, they sat down to your exact point and said, are you sure you want a book to come out about the health and strength of israeli society and the solidarity of israeli society when it seems like the country is going through a cold civil war and the country is tearing itself apart and our reaction saw my coauthor and i reaction to it was big precisely because israel is going through this moment. we need to publish this book because what we thought was being lost from the commentary about israel is there is political polarization going on all over the world, all over the

world, mostly in western affluent democracies, but all over the world and israel is no exception. but we've learned from those nine or ten months is that israel is not immune to intense political polarization. tom was in the thick of things when he was ambassador to there, dealing with the various factions and parties on it. but we felt was that unlike some of these other countries, including the u.s., israel was far less likely to tear itself apart and to enter into kind of really israelis were far less likely to ultimately be at each other's throats because there were these societal shock absorbers, there were these building blocks of israeli society that just when it felt like israel was going to kind of go over the edge, it kind of pulls them back and pulls them back together. and so what we thought is we would go through the book and explain what israeli society has, is that most western countries do not have, and that holds the country together and even if you think it's hard to believe, we say, look, this country's been through some

pretty rough periods in the past, whether it was the assassination of yitzhak rabin, where literally half the country blamed the other half for creating the political environment that led to his assassination, or go back to the 1950s when there was a deeply divisive debate, debate about whether or not israel should accept reparations from the west german government. violent protests at the knesset calls for the violent overthrow of the government. i mean, you go to the first lebanon war where the protests were way bigger, way bigger than the protests we saw over judicial reform over these last few months. they just there was no social media. so people weren't aware of of what was going on. so in every period in israeli history, you have these moments, this one was bad in 2023. but we argued there's something here that holds the country together and there's something the west could learn from. and then october 7th happened and then we watched out of this horror, this unbelievable, unbearable horror, the country actually did come back together.

so what separates israel from other countries specifically democratic countries at a time of war? because we saw in the u.s. rally around the flag in the first gulf war, we surely saw that after 911. how does israel differentiate from what we've seen in what we experienced here in the u.s.? so we did see it after. the the first gulf war. we saw it less after 911. we saw it immediately after 911. and then it dissipated and i, i hate to start speculate on what would happen today in this political environment. we're in today. if we had a national security shock on our country. january six was pretty close. january six was pretty close. and our and our politics seem as polarized today as they did on january 7th. but does it matter if the threat came from within, which is what we saw happen on january six? yeah, i mean, i look yeah, it's a shock to the system and you

would have thought that would have been a moment where leaders say, you know, cooler heads need to prevail. this was this was an unbelievable trauma. but, look, i think the reality is what israel has dealt with post october seven. i mean, first of all, let me just and i know eric alluded to some of this, what has happened in israel, beginning with the morning of october 7th, is it's it's it's so impressive. and i hate saying that because it's half the country coming together. it's unbelievable. i mean, okay, let me just paint a picture. a month ago in tel aviv on yom kippur, a little over a month ago, there was the or i'm not going to get all the details. the details aren't important. but but but the big picture is there was an orthodox service on yom kippur every year in the center of tel aviv. and there was some ruling that came down that said there could be an orthodox service, but they couldn't impose certain things

on public property like a makita, like the divider, the gender based divider between men and women in service and other elements of an orthodox service and the community, the organization that put on the yom kippur service still put up the makita, ended other things in violation. apparently, of the rules and the ordinance. and they were protests and secular israelis from tel aviv came and they tore down the makita and they started getting in the face of the orthodox -- and the israeli press was history iconic like this is the depth of division that here we are on the holiest day of the year and we're in each other's faces like this. we've never seen before. we've really like this is the worst. okay. and you you heard these conversations like the orthodox and the secular israelis or the ultra-orthodox. and the secular israelis could never coexist. okay. so then you fast forward five weeks later, six weeks later to the october seventh, israel has this massive call up, 360,000 reserves. they have there.

it's been a very long time. they've had to call up anything comparable to that number of reserves. it's larger than the standing armies, standing army armies of the uk and france combined. and there was, you know, the way the idf does its call ups is they always overshoot in the call ups. they call up more than they need in normal times because, you know, people are traveling and people are overseas. two parents, one of them, you know, they've little kids that both can't show up. they have people working overseas. so they overshoot and call ups and they hope they get about 80%. and then the you add in there was all this concern about these reservists who were saying they wouldn't they stopped training. they wouldn't serve. so they overshot on the call ups and everybody turned out. so the turnout now in the lowest turnout is 120% of those called up in some areas, it's 150%. in some parts of the country, it's 180% people. so that's of people who are called up. then there are people who weren't called up, who just started showing up. and then there are people who've aged out in israeli reserves. when you get into your forties,

you don't have to do military, you have to do reserves anymore. they just said, look, i know if i want to show up so that. so there was this surge in supplies, demand for supplies, because they needed to service all these people who are showing up. they didn't they're totally backlogged backlog. the supply chains weren't set up. so this community that had organized the protests against the government, the brothers in arms, and so the reservist group, all these groups that had organized all these protests for nine or ten months and then built incredible infrastructure to organize these protests against the government and, you know, you know, you were covering they were excoriating the government at 10 a.m. on saturday morning, october 7th. about 20 of them met some of the prominent people from the high tech community who you know, tom, they met and they said, okay, we got to help. they immediately called the ministry of defense. they immediately called the government that they've been at war at and said, how can we help? by that evening, they had thousands and thousands of the people who are the architects of the and activists in the

protests stepping up and they just started filling all the gaps to get support for these 360,000 reserves. and they've taken on many other roles which we can talk about. and so this whole thing just happened. and then the coverage team are the idf is unheard of, unheard of. i mean i mean unheard of. so the haredim are completely so so we're told lead a completely different life, almost like they're not part of the state, that there's like a tribe that they're part of. that's not part of the state. that's the characterization. now, we in our book, we show that that's been actually quietly changing. there's been some softening in the in the haredi community. obviously, the political leadership is its own thing. but if the rank and file, the haredi community, there have been signs that there has been some more integration than people realize. so there was more hope. but i was hopeful that there was. and we interviewed a lot of community leaders who were pointing to trends and data that show that there was integration of the community. but and so i'm about as

optimistic as anyone that that things were going to soften. i didn't expect this. they're trying to enlist in the idf. so so during the whole nine months of the of the judicial reform protests, one of the big issues of debate is whether or not they get a formal legal exemption that it's formalized to not serve. and here they are. and now the baseline is low. so i don't want to overstate it, but it is a surge. they are showing up and they want to serve. i'm also hearing stories of these temporary bases that are being put up to accommodate so many of these reserves. these like sort of impromptu, temporary makeshift bases and they're really uncomfortable because they were put together in a couple of days near one of the bases. i know someone who's a reservist who was called up at his base like it was a dump right. was put up overnight. there was an already a shiva nearby. and the the leaders of these shiva came to the to the base and they said, our students will all move out. so you soldiers can take the beds. so the so the soldiers can sleep in real dorm rooms, in real beds, so they don't have to sleep where they're sleeping. and the commander of this unit

said, well, where like where they don't worry, they'll figure it out. they'll scatter. they want the soldiers to have the beds and sleep at the yeshiva. i can tell you a story after story after story. i'm not i don't want to sound like totally rosy. i think once this war is over, we'll be back to real division. but the baseline will have changed. and i think they will be starting from a different place than they were on october six. i mean, they have to. right. so, ambassador, you're not just sitting here to to look pretty and he's enjoying this. so i love you, dad. talk to you. i want to bring you in. you just left office in july. perfect timing, i might add. went back into the private sector. and now, after october 7th, decided that you were going to go once again and try to help, given the crisis in the middle east. can you talk about what you've been doing? i know you've met with some of

the families of the hostages, and you describe this as the worst 30 days of israel's history. well, first of all, i model to be here. it's a beautiful synagogue. so i'm. i just went to the main sanctuary and been here before. it's gorgeous. so those of your members, you're very lucky. and at the end. that's right. i, i felt because dan's sister and his coauthor, the brother in law, live in israel, live in jerusalem, lives literally three blocks from my house in jerusalem. yes, the residence was in jerusalem. they moved it from tel aviv. that's a home, an issue we'll talk about later. and and i spent many nights talking about the title of the book. and and the reason i was so interesting in the title of the book is that startup nation, i can't even explain to you how that's become like a noun and a verb in israel. i mean, startup nation, which was the title of their first book, has changed really people how they see israel from a

business perspective, a technology innovation. and i, i give these guys here the the the credit for really taking this to a whole new level and creating a whole infrastructure and a real bricks and mortar as a building in in tel aviv. that's the sort of nation i just all of you should understand how important the role that only the book played. but the role that the dan and his team have played and really talking about innovation in israel, which is extremely important. listen, i am i said yesterday or today on some show and i really do mean this. i think israel is going to go through the most difficult. 30 days is coming 30 days in their history and people say, well, what are you talking about? the war of independence. young people, war, because israel is going to try to do something here which all operate in and conflict with each other. one is they have to rid they

have to rid gaza of hamas. let's make no mistake about that. okay. well, it is it is as important as anything that israel's ever done, not only for the threat that hamas did to pay for the least of what they did, but as a deterrent for the rest of the actors in the world, especially in the middle east. to whom? my question is real strength. and no one should question israel strength. there were two. they got to get these hostages out. and as as as many of you know, i you know, i've spent time and one spent time there's there's 240 people hopefully still alive. these are grandmothers and grandfathers and children. it's and having been on the phone with them, he can't it's impossible. the words don't the words the words aren't available and you can't even even think about what these families are going through. and israel is always true to the idea of of helping and getting these hostages out. but that runs a little bit in

contrast to getting rid of hamas, because ultimately hamas doesn't care about people. they they have no interest and they want to use these people as human shields as we all know, a third they've got to keep hezbollah out. and that, quite frankly, this is not a political comment, but it's a fact. it thanks to to joe biden and the decision of this administration to put these aircraft carriers in the mediterranean. you know, joe biden likes to say you superpowers don't bluff. he means this, he means this. and i think one of the message he's sent to hezbollah, don't screw with us. that's a diplomatic term, by the way. and i think they're getting the message, as you saw it earlier today, there was a the the the white house shots of missiles off into syria as a retaliation for some of the activities are doing. so i think they get israel it serves the fourth thing and we none of us should forget this. we have to do everything we can to protect innocent palestinian lives. okay. the hamas doesn't care about

palestinian lives. they made it very clear the their martyrs, the more palestinians that die, the better. because it's the cause. it's their desire to make sure there's a regional war. so the more palestinians and more and more condemnation of israel, the more activity. that's what hamas is all about. israel needs to do whatever they can do, whatever they can do to try to prevent innocent palestinian lives to be lost. and i think it's very important the hamas is to represent them and we've got to hope and work with the israelis. right. this is a war. palestinian lives are going to be killed, innocent, a people to be killed because it be used as human shields. but we need to make sure that the quarters are open from egypt to get to the palestinians in southern gaza. we should be thinking about this. have been calls for a pause, not a cease fire, but a pause to allow hostages to be released. we have to keep our mind on that because a lot of innocent people are suffering. so i've tried to be helpful as best i can as someone who was an every day i'm on the phone with israelis, as many of you are, i like to remind people would be

like the 350 million americans potentially have lost could have lost someone at the twin towers. just think about that. every single person in israel knows someone who was either killed in the concert has been in the military in gaza, have been kidnaped. and certainly everyone i know has a family member who's been called up. this is what israel is going through. and and to dan's point, it has it only it took hamas to bring the country together. can you imagine from the left to the right, the son of the former, his broth his country got, the country will come out of this. they will come out of the stronger and better. and it but it's going to be a very, very, very complicated time for all of us who care deeply about save israel. and certainly for the israelis who are living there every day. yeah, i mean, i don't think anyone anyone i know anyone here, any of our viewers enjoy seeing innocent people suffer are civilians and babies and

women and elderly suffer and be killed and have to walk with their hands up in the air as they're led into southern gaza. so the only party that benefits from this from dead -- and dead palestinians is hamas. dan, i think it's pretty fair to say, especially in the days after october seven, that no u.s. president has embraced and come to the defense of israel as unequivocally as joe biden has. i think his speeches, his trip to israel, he instantly became much more popular than even prime minister netanyahu, not that he was so popular, but he needed him more than the other way around. and understandably, as the war has progressed, as these images have shocked people around the world, just seeing the devastation in gaza, because hamas does use people there as human shields, the u.s. has

raised some valid concerns, not only in how they're conducting the war, but more importantly, what after what the war looks like, what the exit strategy is. the u.s., it has been reported it was surprised at how little time and attention the netanyahu government, this wartime government, has given to that concept. and today we heard from secretary of state blinken say that it's the u.s. is view that gaza postwar should be run in conjunction with the west bank by the palestinian authority. so i asked mark regev, adviser to prime minister netanyahu, about that today and whether that is a policy that israel would support. and his answer after i followed up a few times was that it is more complicated because the pa has yet to condemn the attacks themselves. so are we starting to see some fissures between these two countries and do both sides not have a valid point in saying,

yes, we do need an exit strategy, but israel also saying we can't trust a partner who can't condemn what happened. look, i think what president biden did, especially in those early days, were what he did was extremely important for a variety of reasons. a, the speed with he spoke out. i wasn't privy to these conversations, but my understanding is everything prime minister netanyahu and ultimately the war cabinet asked of president in those early days he delivered on and as you said, i think it was something very dramatic about the commander in chief of the most important, most powerful military on the planet getting on air force one, flying in effectively into a war zone and not just being there, but spending time with the victims and families of victims of the attacks, spending time with families who have loved ones who are being held hostage, meeting with the war cabinet, the united states, going to whatever. but i mean, you never see that.

and but the most important thing he did was the raw emotion he spoke with. and that was like, you know, you felt like this is a guy who kind of believes it in his kitchen, is like he's not reading talking points like this is this is real for him. and i think that came through and and it was admirable i think i have to response is on on the future of gaza one is obviously israel did not select the timing for this war. israel was completely caught flat footed. we say, you know, our book, the united states has strong institutions, but a weak society. israel has a very strong society but weakens situations, as we saw throughout 2023 in the debate over the balance of power of the government. and we're now seeing that some of the security institutions were also weak in israel, which which was surprising. so israel was completely caught off guard. the idea that israel is subjected to a quasi genocidal, if not an outright genocidal

invasion on october seventh, that was brilliantly planned that involved tens of thousands, if not more, people. in other words, it may have only been a couple of thousand people who crossed the border from gaza into israel. but when you think a couple of thousand people doing any kind of operation military experts will say for every one person in operation like that, there's three, four or five people. when you think about fundraising moving money around the logistics, training, i mean, it's just it's a it's a huge operation. so tens of that was some israelis are estimating close to 200,000 people were either involved in gaza or or knew knew it was coming. so is this massive operation is planned and executed on israel and this is not a fight for israel that's six or 7000 miles away, like in iraq or afghanistan. for the u.s., it is like a two or three hour drive from tel aviv, from your biggest population centers, all is thrust on israel, is you know, we had the ratios, we talked

about like 49 elevens. while there are hostages taken while in the first 24 hours, there are operations still going on like they were in 20 communities. the idea that the first among the first questions asked of israel is what's your plan for post hamas, gaza like? are you like they i got to fight this war. i got to get rid of hamas and we'll spend some time at some point figuring it out. but that's not the task right near right here at hand. i mean, in 2016, when the obama administration rightly decided they were going to eradicate isis and they went into mosul, i mean, go back and look at what the u.s. did in mosul in 2016. we flattened mosul there were civilian casualties that were extraordinary. there wasn't a great plan for what would what would succeed isis in mosul. i mean, the it's just it's war is incredibly messy war where the timing you don't select is doubly messy. and so israel's got to figure this out. i think the most important thing is israel's not going to ask the

u.s. to be some kind of peacekeeping force in gaza. so israel saying there's going to be a transition period. they don't want to rule permanently. we're going to have to be here for a little bit until we transition to something else. now, i think the palestinian authority that's interesting what mark regev said to you today. i think the other challenges. abu mazen, the leader of the palestine authority, i think is thrilled to see hamas be hopefully eradicated. after all, it was hamas that threw abu mazen and his government out of gaza in a violent coup and to send off of buildings like literally, literally took them to top of buildings, threw them off. they were killing officials of the it was it was a as violent a coup as you can imagine. so i think he's probably thrilled to see hamas gone. what he has apparently said is, i don't want to run this place if i have to arrive in gaza on the back of an israeli tank, you have an israeli tank, meaning the israeli military come in and take this place over and then i come in behind them because that will have no credibility. and so this is going to be you know, there's no there's no good

answer right now. but the idea that israel to sequence this and have this figured out before they conduct their operation against hamas, given what they went through on october 7th, is, i think, completely unrealistic. and there has been a lot of and there has been a lot of criticism that whenever the issue comes to israel, there's a stop clock, that they have a limited amount of time to respond, and yet when their greatest advocate and ally is off the record, on the record, publicly saying that there needs to be a plan, that you need to control civilian deaths, it puts them in a bind. well, let me just push you a little bit on that, because i think you can have it both ways. and i think it's it's important for you, for us peters's perspective, and i think dan said and this administration, when joe biden came to israel for the 10th time in july of last year when i was there, he

got off the plane at 3:00 in the afternoon. he up to the podium. he looked into the camera. he said to clear, you do not need to be a -- to be a zionist. and he meant it. he here's a guy. one of the benefits of being too old is he's he's he's been through it all. he's seen it all. he's been involved in middle east issues for 30 and 40 years. he's watched these relationships. he's had these you disaster. he'll talk to you about golda meir. you i'll walk you through this. so you're dealing with a president who understands. i think, what's going on there. and i say that only because when we say, you know, we've got israel's back, that was an except really important view at the time. on october eighth, ninth. and today, you know, there has been no air between us. anyone in the administration for and i'm a former governor of the scene that there should be a cease fire. but to be clear, a post recovery

and there will be a post recovery as my our mutual friend rahm emanuel likes to say, which, of course, he stole from winston churchill. don't let a good crisis go to waste. we cannot allow this to go to waste. we've got to we got to rid we got to rid them of hamas. yes. we then need to think about the future. and dan's right. you can't dictate a future today, but that future has to be part of a broader middle east. it can't be israel dictating or the united states dictating what goes on in in gaza. but make no mistake, if we don't want this to come right back again, what the solution in here in gaza is going to have to be, not only in israeli, american as well as the saudis, the qataris equations, and to try to figure out how governance will be able to govern gaza in the long term, not immediately, but in the long term. and i think ultimately some role for the p.a. is going to be critical. and how that is actually

operationalized, i have no idea, nor do they, because, again, as i said at beginning, they got four things that are trying to do it simultaneously. this is the fifth thing, but the united states will have the ability to help them think through the next steps. but it's going to take time in the security piece. this is going to be the most important part of it. but make no mistake, long term, we have to be talking about a two state solution. we've got to be thinking about long term helpful for now, the security of israel. but the future of or how palestinians view this conflict and the future of how they're going to look upon their lives. and that's going to be very important. you mentioned the role of sort of a pan arab control, at least maybe temporarily, of gaza in, the saudis specifically, and dan, i want to pick up on sort of the logic behind, the timing for hamas to do this. and there does seem to be

evidence showing that it was the normalization attempt between the saudis and the. israelis, sort of circumventing the two state solution or the palestinians as a whole that led them to decide that now is the time to do this. so initially, people assumed that any normalization was put on ice and there was even concern about what would become of the abraham accord. but in a conversation i with an arab-american scholar, he said, what's notable is what you hear in the arab world among arab leaders in arabic. in response to what hamas did in condemning it, as opposed to what you hear the arab english speaking diaspora. and i thought that was interesting. and so picking up on what you've written about in your books about the relationship between and arab countries, is there a future you think now? yeah, i don't i don't think the first of all, you're exactly right about that. there's the conversation in english and then there's the

conversation. so there's this. if you haven't seen it, i highly recommend it. there was a interview on al-arabiya, which is one of the pan-arab satellite networks. it's based out of saudi arabia in where the anchor was interviewing khalid mashal, who's a former current, sort of somewhere in between leader of hamas and the political wing of hamas based in doha. and she went after him. i mean, the whole thing is in arabic, but you can read the subtitles. she went after him because he was defending the hamas attack on the massacre and she just said, what were you thinking? she i mean, she really like this is terrible for the palestinians. this is terrible, terrible for the arab world. it is barbaric. i mean, it was really so, so and i think you're seeing versions of of that conversation behind closed doors. look, the normalization of the gulf states was made mostly the sunni gulf and israel was their motivation was not love of zion. right? it was it was they weren't

hoping to get invited to shabbat dinner. they were they were attracted to israeli strength. and i've i'm sure, tom, you've had conversations. you speak to these leaders in the gulf and they what do they see in israel? they set up until october 7th. they see a regional economic superpower, a global technologic superpower. so they want they want part of that. you i spoke to leaders in saudi arabia who said to me, we want to innovate. we have so many problems to solve on a range of fronts. why do we have to fly to silicon valley? what if you fly 15 hours to to innovate, to try and solve problems through innovation? when we've got a we've got a silicon valley in our backyard, we're just not allowed to fly there we're not allowed to do business with it. so they wanted in on the on the startup nation ecosystem. israel projected strength economically. it projected strength politically and jayapal globally, certainly punching above its weight. and then obviously it was perceived to have a world class

military and intelligence capability. i think the biggest risk for israel on october 7th in terms of israel's position in the world is it is making some question whether or not it really does have that military and intelligence juggernaut and if it doesn't have it, are these countries in the arab world going to be as attractive to israel part of why they're attracted israel is is because they want to partner with israel in the security strategic front because they share a common threat in iran. but if a bunch of guys in pickup trucks and motorcycles, sort of what was characterized but it wasn't but was characterized as a ragtag militia can just roll through your border and do what they did and wreak havoc on your country. maybe you're not as you know, maybe don't have your act together as much as we thought. so i think it's extremely for israel, not only to go go back at isis, but go back strong. they have to demonstrate that they still have it. october seven was a setback. maybe it was a hiccup, but it in

no way should diminish or dilute how people perceive israel's strength. i think it's israel's strength that give a shot at resumption of saudi normalization, not israel pulling back and to make everyone happy in the international community. so, ambassador, as much as president biden and it may it may be his true conviction, i do believe it is not only his support for israel as a zionist, as a catholic zionist, but also israel's right to defend itself with is with the united states having its back. he also is facing political pressure here at home. and this is prior to october 7th. and as the democrats, yes, had a good night last night, but there is growing concern, especially within the party, about fissures amongst progressive democrats who are calling more and more vocally for a cease fire, for president biden to intervene and more moderate democrats. and then you have the republicans who i think overall

cohesively as a unit are more hawkish and supportive of israel's actions. i know historically overseas wars don't play a huge role in in elections, but everything sort of on the table at this point. how much of a liability or how much of a factor do you think this is? and what we may expect to see in terms of u.s. policy in the months to come. you know, i see this with with i'm a little bit in the tank, so i got to be, you know, obviously, i was appointed by the president and i'm a democrat and all the things we all know. but i'm telling you something, even i was a little bit taken back. and how aggressive of biden has been. i mean, you know, he he didn't just check the box. he was the box. and this is all him. make no mistake, he and tony. but it was really driven by him personally.

he's driving the policies, driving what his speeches are. he's really, really committed. and there is believe me, there is a lot of pressure on him. you know, you see stories about the polls in michigan and you see that the the the the the letters that come from the senate. and there's been an enormous amount of pressure on him. and he has been steadfast, steadfast on the desire that, one, israel has a right to defend itself. number two, they need to rid themselves of hamas. and number three, we got israel's back. it doesn't get much better than that. okay. and i think his view has been let politics be --. so far. this is by this whole shtick now by we this will this will soften over time. don't get ourselves i mean, it just naturally will as as as as as it becomes farther from the catastrophe and as as this wears

on. and so i think ultimately, like anything, i think over time, will, will will march on. but i think the fundamental view in this white house is we're going to instead forefront front and help israel any way we can. and i think, you know, i you know, it's and it's a little bit of a digression here, but i want to make the point, you know, we talk about the left and you know, who's on the left and what they're saying on the left and are some of the people on the left care about a ceasefire? okay, whatever idea there is going to be some of that. the biggest problem we have right now today is what's going on on college campuses. i have been talking about this for two years. when i first got to israel, when people call me up and say, oh, we got to go after this member of congress because they've said this in congress. and i'm like, whatever. you know, that's interesting to me. but what's really the problem here is, is what's going this is before october 7th. what's going on on college campuses today. and many of you have kids on

colleges or our cousins, our grandkids or whatever you may have, you know, what's going on. and we got to get we got to figure this out because if people are upset about the handful of liberal calls and i consider myself a liberal, whatever that might be, but those people who are liberals who are speaking out against israel and they're upset of the ten, ten or 15 or 12, what are the number is in a decade from now? we're to have two or 300 of them. if we don't get our act together on college campuses. so we're going to have to figure out how we talk about these issues. we have to figure out what how israel communicates. it's about how people who have big foundations and how we work this situation. we've got to do we've got to go and have a moonshot program, a moonshot program on universities, because end of the i say to everyone, you know, you can be pro-israel and pro the palestine mission people. i spent half my time when i was the ambassador to israel working on the palestine issue because i

thought it made israel safer by giving technology and 4g and open the allenby bridge in the west wing. i thought it made israel safer, so ultimately i think we're going to need to be focused on what's going on in schools. and as much as we're worried about the liberal politics of this, which is clearly going to be on people's minds, we got to really think about a really new strategy about how we address the issues on college, how we deal with anti-semitism. so let's so let's go there in our final 5 minutes before we open up to questions. you know, -- around the world feel very vulnerable right now. it is not a great time to be a -- in terms of feeling supported or protected living in the united of america. when you have to question whether you can wear a star of david or what you do with your mezuzah and what you talk to your jewish children about. and i the life of me never

thought, you know what hamas did. it's not that they just killed 1400 people, they killed -- and they tortured them. torturing was part of their plan. and the fact that we've seen massive rallies around the world in support of hamas, in support of what happened and not in support of these 1400 innocent victims and the 240 hostages. i and what kills me, in addition to what we've seen on college campuses, is the ripping down of the posters, which i do not understand. it's like, how did that become a thing? the -- hatred is just so high. and i don't know how we tackle that. and it keeps me up at night and it is so painful to say that as a jewish, it is so to say that as a refugee from a former

soviet union, i came to this country where jewish freedom and to not feel support and to see images that we're seeing and i don't know how we tackle that, because i think the result is that many feel this is the exact reason a jewish state is needed as much as we love this country. so. i, i feel that exactly is the way you do. i am the son of a holocaust survivor. i my mother was hidden child during the. basically 1940 445, hidden out by righteous gentiles, saved her life. her father was killed at auschwitz, the holocaust was just something like that was in the water when i was growing up. the stories of the holocaust, the family's experiences, the always being concerned, always looking over your shoulder,

always be, you know, it was just it was just present in my upbringing. and yet it was present. and i never felt vulnerable, like i would hear these stories. it had an effect on my worldview, but i never felt physically vulnerable. this is the first time in my life i think i actually am like, wow, like this. i feel vulnerable. i, you know, i worry about my kids. i worry about people in the community. so this does feel different and much different. i mean, as you said, the tearing down of the posters is like just that. that has become, as i said it like a thing. that's a thing. like what? how did that happen? i wish tom were as simple as and i know you don't suggesting it's simple, but i don't think it's about getting people to understand you can be pro-israel and pro-palestinian because i don't think the campaign against the -- post october seventh is really about the palestinians. i if it were then i would be happy. i would be enthusiastic about having the discussion. you you say you want to educate

these kids on. but i think that there's something much deeper going on because these aren't dumb kids and and they are they are latching on to really dumb ideas and and so i just don't think we're going to necessary win them over with arguments. there are two there are two elements to october 7th that are eerily distinctive from the holocaust. one is you talked about the torture and the rape and the in the end, the beheadings, burnings of live burnings of people. during the holocaust, the nazis went to lengths to hide what they were doing. they want to hide it here. the strategy was to do the opposite. it was to broadcast it. they weren't interested in hiding it. they were. they were they were broadcasting the world. they ran with gopro cameras. they someone in our community here in new york has a niece, an israeli woman who has a niece who they took her phone. her niece was at that concert. they took her phone. they raped her, and they filmed

the raping on her phone on facebook live. so her family could watch it. it was all designed to broadcast to the world what they were doing that was unique and unprecedented. and secondly. there was like a legitimization campaign after it happened. that is to say, you know, after after the holocaust for many years on the fringes of of academia, real fringes, there was all this holocaust denialism. right. and it was actually denialism. they didn't say the holocaust didn't happen. they just said, oh, well, the facts are a little different than you thought. and it wasn't 6 million. it was really and a half. and they well, they weren't gassed chambers. they were labor. you know, it was to chip away at the facts. but it wasn't legitimization. and what's so jarring and unnerving to me about this moment is you hear these arguments in respectable corners, in college campuses, in columns of prominent journalists that mainstream organizations in the chancellor rise of certain governments around the world,

that u.n. vote the general assembly, completely lopsided u.n. vote during, the russia ukraine war. russia invaded ukraine. the world was more divided. some thought russia acted badly. some weren't willing to take a position here in this u.n. vote. it was there was no divide. everyone was against the u.s. and israel, except for a handful of countries. most of the world basically supported a cease fire with no mention of hamas as though hamas didn't exist. and when and you'd hear the arguments and you'd say, yes, these things happen. yes, the torture happened, but and then it's always the yes, but but you need to understand. you need to understand they live in palestine, live in an open air prison, and they live in these horrible conditions. and ed and that creeps me out that legitimization it's to say that there is yes we think these things are terrible but you need to understand no know we don't need to understand there is no there is no understanding and it's not to say that we shouldn't be for a two state solution. we should absolutely be for a two state solution. but but this was a unique form

of barbarism that that was unleashed on on an anti-semitic comprehensive scale. and when i say anti-semitic and comprehensive, sad, leigh, the fact that there is this symphony of support for it, i think tells me there's a global anti-semitic semitism problem that's rearing its ugly head in the creepiest of ways. and i don't think that's going to be mollified by getting those people to understand that we mean well in trying to develop some kind of constructive two state solution. but then i think it is. i don't think anyone would disagree with it. certainly, i wouldn't disagree. having given having just lived there for two years, what i what i'm trying to articulate it is we have to fight back. we have to look at all the tools we have in our arsenal, including the the focus on the raging anti-semitism and what's

taking place on college campuses and in and around the world. we all sort of have a strategy. a strategy can't be just, you know, we're mad. we have to have a strategy. we have to think about a process. and when we say, i spent so much time on the idea of college campuses, we cannot just say it's happening. fine. we got to say, what are we going to do about it? so we have to figure what's what has been happening isn't working. so what we're doing isn't working. so now we got to step back. we're --, we can figure this out. we've got to figure out how we're going to get communicate with these kids on college campus and figure out how we want to make sure that they understand the facts on the ground and make sure they understand what they're saying is a bunch of nonsense, but it takes it takes energy. it takes time. and so my view has been i always you can't do this without a strategy. you can't do this without force and focus. and that's how i think we need to look at this as we understand when we look at what's to come

after this, we have to figure out how we're we can't just do the same thing over and over again. we've got to figure out how to do that. what we're doing even better and stronger, and having a stronger israel and a stronger jewish community. and one thing hamas has done is brought the community gathered. it has wakened many of us up. that is for -- sure is waking us, a lot of us up. that would never have been engaged in these topics before and have gotten us to and are now going to take this energy and we've got to do something about it as we think about the future. and university leadership has been, at worst complicit in at best pathetic in dealing with this issue. okay. i know we have question from the audience. so we have about 10 minutes to answer. so let's start. how do you see the mideast in ten years, 25, 50, 75? do you believe the concern with proportional in retaliation is being reasonably addressed by the israeli government?

so whichever one of those two you want to address there, i'll i'll go quick. look, i think that i'm quite optimistic about. the future of the middle east if iran is somehow dealt with. i just don't think is at the center of so much of this from hezbollah to hamas to even some more radicalized elements in the west bank to other proxy militias and armies they support in the region. this is even before get have a nuclear weapons capability. so i think that it's just unrealistic that israel can can continue with some kind of containment strategy with iran. now far be it for me to come up with a plan or tell you what you do with that policy. but i just think iran is is wreaking havoc in the region. and i'm not persuaded they can be contained. so i am hopeful if somehow the region figures out a plan to

deal with iran. okay. yes, i mean, in one in one of the keys of this and we in and i've been a big advocate of this and that's a normalization with saudi arabia. and i know it's you know. everyone's like, oh, now that all this has happened, i'm telling you, it's imperative. imperative. once the once we get through this period of time and once we get rid of hamas, it's to dust off this idea of a normalization with israel, because it's not just normalization with israel. it is normalizing. it's hard to even think about this now in the current events, but it is normalizing with the rest of the muslim world and ultimately that is the future that the abraham accords was a brilliant idea. we could debate it. the who actually did it was brilliant. but that's a whole other issue. that's a editorial point by the way. that is a declaration that was mean. that was not called for. but but but nonetheless, the actual agreements themselves

were very well done. okay. cheap applause. okay, exactly. but we're very well done. and i think it is a lesson for us because normalizing with morocco and bahrain and the emiratis has been important to the knowledge security of israel even during this crisis, although there's been criticism some of these countries is nowhere near what it would have been if the normalization had none of them have pulled out of the normalization by the way. so that's a good lesson for us as we think about the future. and i think the saudi piece of this could be enormously important for the security, the state of israel and for the future of israel, which is a byway i don't disagree with you all. iran is the single issue which is the your common enemy is your friend. believe me, the kaiser is worried about iran is israel is so as well as most of the other. as soon as she countries. okay let's move to another question how can the soft power of economics maybe you can take from what you've learned from both books, how can the soft

power economics be used to promote peace between israel and the palestinians? i mean, by his book, just buy a lot of copies of his book. don't share it with anyone, you know, don't do the sharing leads to a drop in sales, right? we exactly buy the book. look, i the potential in the arab world for technology revolution is enormous. there are parts of the arab world, the broader arab world, that are way behind the west, way behind israel, way behind europe in on the technology front, there's a huge opportunity there. the dynamism of the technology startup ecosystem in some of the ecosystem is in some of these countries are at best uneven. again, as i was saying earlier, it's what attracts many of these countries to work with israel. israel has the venture capitalists who know how to build companies. they have plenty of entrepreneurs who know how to

build companies and they could work with palestinian entrepreneurs, particularly in ramallah, to, you know, co to develop companies together, co-develop companies that market product and services to the arab world. tom was involved with a lot of this. it's a very specific and concrete programs to try to to try to capitalize on what i'm talking about. do you want to speak to a couple of things? i mean, i going this is the the magic sauce. the magic sauce, what israel has what dan's first book talk about right. the starvation. this is what when he speaks his com this what these arab countries want a little bit the magic does 100% they want the little israel magic dust. and by the way, we have to take that magic. does it make sure that the the palaces live in ramallah also get it? and so i spent a lot of time with google and microsoft and all the big tech companies to basically open centers in the west bank. and again, to try to use the what the magic is. they call it soft power, ask questions a great question,

because it is exactly what we need to be doing. it's hard to think about it right now, what's going on. so it's it's impossible for any of us to think about anything but, ridding that of hamas and getting those 240 people out and making it doesn't turn regional. i get that. but there will be a future. we will get past this at some point. and the soft power piece of this, we cannot lose because that will be will keep this country the 75. this country is only 75 years old. i celebrated the 75th anniversary in july. i at the embassy. i did 100 different 74 then it's always it's a little young little country and. it has a very, very bright future. it's got a few bumps right now, but they're going to through this and this things like soft power and technology and the stuff you've been writing about is exactly, you know, in this first chapter is book. it talks about why israel is such a the happiest country, fourth, fourth, happiest in the world. okay. according to a u.n. ranking, which is the nicest thing the un

has said about israel, though that is, no one should forget what he wrote because that hasn't changed that that is what keeps israel israel. it is a remarkable place. and that piece of it what you what you wrote about in that first chapter, i was right i was reading i was trying to say how i'm going to talk about this, given all the stuff we need to be talking about it, because that hasn't changed hasn't changed people's psychiatry. they love being israelis. they love they love being there. and is why this country's been so successful. can i just want to say two things on that? two points in that responding time. one is, i think when they talk about these international rankings and we focus on these happiness rankings throughout the book, it's happiness is not the right word. it's sort of like a slippery term. what they really mean is life satisfaction. i mean, if you really drill down in what the language lives, are people satisfied with the lives they're leaving and when you draw down on what satisfied, satisfy action in life means, it means are you living with purpose? are you living with meaning? and i think tom, you would

agree, having spent two years there israel is who have plenty to complain about. they can complain about the security situation. they complain the cost of living. they complain about the traffic. as i say, as i tell israelis, you know, ranks israel, the fifth most traffic congested country in the world and yeah, you know, waze was an israeli company. they always want to remind me that. anyway, they think manhattan's a vacation. exactly. they. that's right. they come to manhattan to to to relax. and so that's from the book. and so so there, i think what's important is to remember is they lead difficult lives, but they lead meaningful lives and they lead lives with purpose and that's why they rank so high in these happiness rankings. they feel every single israeli, every single israeli feels that, you know, as micha goodman, who we call in the book extensively, says in israel you can touch history, you can shape history. it's a small enough country where you can have impact, but it's a big enough country with a big enough story that what happens in israel really matters. and you can a role in all of

that. and that has been the case for every israeli --. coming back to the point tom has been making, it's also increasingly and we're way to go happening with israeli arabs. and i think we'd be remiss if did not acknowledge the way the israeli arab community has responded since october 7th. it is quite inspiring and i don't want to overstate because in may of 2021, in in mixed cities in israel. you were there. yeah. the fighting broke out between is israeli arabs and israeli --. but so far, like in jaffa, this was all from the ground up. there was there was a a civilian volunteer security commission created by israeli arabs, israeli -- in jaffa to work together to say, let's never let what happened in may of 21 happen again. we will protect each other if things get tense between our communities, will be there to bring the temperature and thousands of people are now volunteering for this for this effort. one of the members of knesset in

the ra'am party, which is the islamist muslim party arab party in the in the knesset, basically start to question about the maybe the beheadings didn't happen the leader of the wrong party mansour abbas, who served in the last israeli government as a kingmaker, as a kingmaker, he actually formed the coalition government. tom knows abbas well. in fact, we spent an afternoon, sal and i, mansour abbas, because for our book, because of an tom brokered and an mansour bus basically told this member of his knesset of his party, get out. i want you out of the party and out of the knesset. you are not going to deny what happened. and so i, i think there's stuff happening again. i tend to be my wife always tells me too optimistic. you're too optimistic. don't be so this about everything, by the way, not just this, but. but i am. but i think there's i, i don't know if hamas brought israel together. we can get into that. but i do think hamas may have

had an impact on the israeli arab community, or at least some of them. well, you know, i and i know we have to, but literally today at 4:00, i got a from mansour. there you go see. and he said i have a sponsor or i have a i have a letter for you. this guy is i'm fan boy. i a i have a letter. i need you to give to president biden. well, i said i'll start call the president, read to him. and in a letter was about the hostages. so on the behalf of the arabs here in israel, we need to save these. and he went on and on and on about the importance of saving these lives. and when you say there's hope, there's plenty of hope. and this is a guy who, you know, was was a hero in israel, is bright. he was the kingmaker. but here is a, you know, muslim brotherhood. you know, guy who has has decided that he needs to be in the his needs to be part of the

israel magic. so it was the i read that letter today and i of course i haven't called biden to read him the letter, but i will soon. in fact, he told these people before he told biden, you know, don't him if you if you see him tonight. well, listen, that's not a trivial point. israeli-arabs make up percent of the population. and don't forget, hamas killed muslims and israeli arabs as well. that heinous day. okay, we are out of time. i don't want to keep you guys any longer. i do appreciate you all coming. congratulations. can i just say one thing before we let people go? just one minute. i promise. one minute. there is this like that. we open the conversation that. the national security brought israelis together that hamas, as tom said, who would have thought? i just think it's important to remember that those 360,000 people who are serving right now, who are called up and i'm sure, as you know, tom mentioned, many of you have

family or friends, as i do, who are those people who called up there? are so many images flying around social right now that obviously horror horrible were inundated with them. they should be out there i'm not saying anyone should suppress them. the world needs to see all of these images. but there are also some unbelievably moving images. my favorites are every friday now october 7th, every friday you start seeing popping up on social media these images of these israeli soldiers who are serving together, and sometimes they're in a hall of a tank and they're doing shabbat together and they're sitting around literally like six of these five of these soldiers in a tank or armored vehicle bouncing around, driving somewhere and and and they're and they're seeing sholem aleichem together. i show my kids because my kids, like we do that every friday night. but to see them, to see these soldiers and the food they're eating, it's not exactly the food eat on friday night, but they're doing it and there's they've yarmulkes on and you

look around these guys in the tank and they are from all walks of israeli life really of religious you have secular guys with tattoos, ponytails and you have a orthodox and people from the east and people from the west and children of, you know, cabdrivers sitting there in the hull of the tank with children of, you know, tech billionaires. and they're all in it together. so it's not just that this event brought people together. i think had a big impact. obviously, i also think you have this sense community, the social infrastructure that when these people are together, it's very hard that they have so many built into the society that make it hard for them to ultimately think of each other as the other. and those images are so powerful. so we are all sharing these horrendous images from what happened october 7th. i encourage you to look out for these other images about this coming together in the ways i'm describing right now. share those images, too, because it's the best of israel and we want the world to see those images because i think the west

actually has a lot to learn from israel. and this what i'm talking about here is one of those things, not just the -- as, the victim, but it's the --, a healthy, vibrant, flourishing in society, built on on love and ritual and community and solidarity. and thank you all for being here. please join me in thanking bianna gologryga. dan senor, ambassador thomas nides. thank you, everyone. i love.