on open but ed 1 moses was theso he wasg c ed yeah, right. it was crazy. but did he did lead me to the promised l yeah, we're, we're of time. i, i one of thank you again for and i just want to s befe you applaud at the end of this month the non frank lloyd wright is turning five and happy birthday.

correspond and for abc and is the author most recently of no time to panic. richard reeves in the middle here is the president of the recently formed institute for men and is the author of the wonderful book boys and men. al paper in york city that will go unnamed, and he is the author of a truly prescient book in retreat. happy be here with you. richard you wrote a piece for us xv press. might not even remember it because you're producing much these days, but it was called the boys left behind, and i wanted to just read a lileof it. in the span of just a few decades, write an astonish revolution. human relations has occurred since the widespread adoption. agriculture, patriarchy has been the norm in human societies. no longer patriarchy been demolished in advanced are no lr dependent on for material resources, tearing down barriers to education, the labor market,

for women economic independence and. i like all of those things, but you go on to say this the movement to liberate women has unleashed the power, talent of half the global population. but like all revolutions, it has real challenges. youpend a 12,000 year old social order without experiencing side effects. so the subject of the panel today really about what those side effects are. yeah, they're good sentences. yeah. you really drew it out of me for that area and i wondered if we could start with you since since this is your topic what are some of those? obviously, itting up here were r feminism i would not have the life that i would that i have w. that you wrote about in that piece? well, thank you just intimated,t was probably you t write more boldly for you than

perhaps they do for other places as part of your ma a lot on how you define patriarchy, of course. but the the central because it's not if there aren't many areas of american life and around world where there's stilc behalf women, especially at the top. but you see the central changes, the one that you just quoted me as saying that is the fundamental shift in theationshn men and women. so just a couple of data points. i'm a data guy in 1979, 13% of women earned more than the the guy in the middle. now it's more than 40% of women earn more. the median man, that's not 50%. but it's a it's a revolu men and women. all great. but if you've d role of men historically as being about that having that kind of economic relative to women, then you don't change that that quickly and expect there not to be some difficulties in adjustment. so i think that's driven all kinds of things we see falling away from educn. see deaths of .

we've seen rising rates of suic men. obviously, there's huge changes in family life. and so in a sense that to bring to a sharper point, we positively and hugely, wonderfully expand what it means to be a woman. more work to do we have not done the same men and then we've wondered men are struggling with this new new world that has changed in the space of one generation, maybe two. i think that this topic is one where the gap between what you read like what the official actual concerns are is maybe wider■b than almost anything. you pick up the newspaper, you watch television, you're in elite circles, going to hear about toxic masculinity. you're going to hear about the patriarchy. you're going read about like cis, heterosexual will, jargon, jargon,argon. brett, matt, richard, you're all parents of boys. like give us. a sense of what things are like now parenting boys in 21st

century america. because ifline, you would thinke somewhat many people think we still live in a patriarchy but then hear the statistics and you talk to very much not what my experiences my child's life. i just actually have a be very easily answered. is there definitely a direct causality between the rise of feminism and the fall of patriarchy and the challenges young men and boys are finding? or could it be other forces at play that might be acting on them as well? yeah so obously the economy has changed as well, which is unrelated to wh'en. so it's an opportunity for me to clarify my comments. there is this tendency on the political right and, maybe brett can speak to this to say, of course men a se women are doing better, right? the women are taking the jobs. families. and so the the conservativyes ws what has caused men to rise.

that is econ■h■?omically and socially just not true. what has happened is that the question what it means to be a man and to mature into masculinity is no longer it's not it's not clear what. the answer to that is ank we'rey good job of even acknowledging the fact there is now question and i think that's created very dangerous vacuum in our culture and in o p it's an axiom that if responsible people, aren't grappling with isn, irresponsible people are going to exploit it. and i think that's happening in real time. i think there's an economic question. i think also a cultural question, which is, you know, ask myself, you sort of just are a consumer of movies, television, where is the model of manhood? right. i mean my father grew up in an era where you could look humphrey bogart as a kind of a model for what a manw he shouldw he should be with you know, the bad guys. i think of, you know, casablanca

and his his role is as kind of being on the surface a cynic and at heain if there's anything abt male rolesey' cynics through and through. i about i mean, one of the things that i have to struggle with, with i wouldn't say struggle with because i feel like my son is is a very good place is how do you provide models not only in your own life also in terms of the literature that he's reading or the movies tos exposed or the songs he's he's hearing that give an idea be. that is neither above has a plas a kind of concept of what it is to you know, maybe almost in sea man to be a person, be an ander, to be to be courageous, to be masculine in a certain of way. all of that has sort of gone

away. and i challenge people maybe there are examples of this, you know, in an odd way, there's this beautiful film called the hold overs, if you haven't seen it, the latest alexander payne film, which which touches on this in a in a in a rather deft way. but i think those examples are few and far between. d i remember when when my son was we go to these awful right? which, you know,st of all, if you're a parent and you have to sit through this --, it's just like, oh, my god right? but the whole thing was, was, was, was all of the films just scribe masculinity in the most caricature ish terms? and we have to i think, find our way back to ature is able to talk about explain and model a kind of idea of manhood asculint also retaiomsomething honorabled

and d attractive. and that i think is his is absent from our culture. but isn't this i mean, someone like matt gutman he. yeah. to you know, a lot of my book focused evolutionary and evolution in the roles that we as primitive societies played right and i always thought of myself someone who has that kind daring that i woulde guy who would, you know, taste the mushroom like iscious or is it deadly, you know, and would find out and either be dead or like go spear the mammoth and might get killed. but there were other roles to be played and so you know when we talk about what looksike and i'm also very touch with my feminine side and the whole book is about how i cryby the way. so seriously, yeah, there's lo sobbing. brett gave me a quizzical look,

is it possible to define mask salinity or you know, like it is this constantly broad spectrum that's a moving target. no, but as the culture change, it's like humphrey bogart i mean, that's that's one view. and is, you iron man is another. but i mean, i think we've always these but i think we're fungible. do you do you agree, matt, for safety as a prized over risk ta? me, that is like a typically that is that is a shift tha happened that some people would call feminization maybe that's the wrong language think it's pretty clear right now at least in many elite let's leave other parts for a minute because that's different but theldthat we travel in that those that safety that coddling is the norm and that

when sort of especially physical risk not not normative, is looked at as crazy, that that has an effect, especially especially on boys that's that's broadly how i see it. i do agree with that. and i think one of the biggest things that i and we talked about this backstage that as a boy, i was allowed and my mom was actually very forgiving in this to be a complete disaster like i was a mess. i was sloppy. i made mistakes. i fell down. i was like and i think that there is a a form of perfection that boys these days have to embody. there was an incident at the school. i probably i should't get to b'd grade were apparently annoying, really cute girl named in the fourth grade and msos sort of on the periphery of this and they got called into the dean. and you tell your kids you'■ren.

and i wondered what that would have looked like 30 years ago. 40 years ago or whatever. how old i am when i was growing up and what the dean would have saidd have just been, okay, let the boys be boys. i'm not condoning it, by the way. ked myself. and perhaps, richard, i mean, we've all probably had similar experiences like that raising boys. but i think the point here is ■çthat i think two of the bigget problems with this debate, but perhaps were the debateso the following the the unwillingness to imagine overlapping ■b■%on of something. right. so when we say men are taller than women, we knowy that we don't mean all are taller than all women. wet e distributions overlap. and so when we talk about the difference between men and we're not saying all men have to be like this and all women have to be like that, what we're saying is at the average there are some differences between us and one of the biggest, by the way, is risk taking. right. the willingness, appetite, whev want, call it a

risk of risk is higher on the er men, physical, not just not just so i've stumbled when you look at companies that are led by men ceo and on averae profitable also more likely to go bant ones. that led by women are on average a little bit less profitable, less lely to go bankrupt, which is entirely consistent about the fact that the average are a bit more risk taking. right. profitable. pays of but if it doesn't, it's going to go under. so one concl&,usio need runningr companies so that we can take these risks anil rockets and make capitalism great again. another temptation is that's why that we don't have these recessions and runs and it's all testosterone. so let's have a female run economy. my conclusion is, how make sure our boardrooms are that appetite towards risk, etc. that thought that there's on the

average that we can c left where have to have androgyny hasen which is crazy but it's also attacked on the idea the right which is to say we know how to give men purpose and a role. about 50 years or so. and so weav young, many young mo are turning agast f idea feel lg the back on them or even blaming them for right feels to a lot of women like it' to back the clock and. that is not where most most want be is which is we want gender equality. we want modernity, but w■o■ue 't think we need to destroy the very idea masculinity in order to get there. and, you know, i mean, the wor iextlopposite ds

essentially for forced by my daughters t watch the greta gerwig, barbie and, i'm just curious. pull this room. if you like the movie, raise your hand. okay. mostthre about to say that. wefor a variety. i mean, i sort of admired some of the kind of technical brio,us was, was, was was terrific. but why did you hate it, brett? because think it peddled a caricatures of reality and not just caricature ish, but profoundly caricature ish because look, anywhere mean just in my own upbringing of my two, you know, my two girls who are academica while. i think, by the way, there's a tremendous amount of that that's not the girls who areit's it's e

struggling. an're struggling in many ways because, again, they're lacking models. yoknow, people ask, you know what is modern and, you know, i think of stewart's definition of pornography, you know you know what? you know, one of the things that we have done books. donald tru n&ñ it doesn't. i'll tell you how it looks like. okay. okay. i vividly after 911 when people wanted to say 're all heroes, and i'm like, no, they weren't heroe gue walking upstairs when everyone else was walking downstairs and those were overwhelmed m extortl courage to save men. and because in part because the physical you know, cozies up, you know, hundreds of flights of stairs or nd of flights of stairs. this is just, you know, overwhelming for for most

people. and very and there was almost a conscious effort to try to devalue what these did when all of us in our hearts■q know thatn 911, the heroes were those first responders who were going need to do more and find ways to do more in our culture to make sure that that sort of thing is honored and appreciate. and it is not take away from the achievements of women or, the courage of women, but it is to say that this one specific type of courage exhibited overwhelmingly byou young men should look those of person that your you ought to aspire■úsomething in some ways't want to use. and i don't want to put my foot into it but exhibits what we our bones know what it is, be an honorable man. so the. who would commit himself a cause that he believes in and would be llto essentially die for

that cause. well, as they like tui depend n. but no, i thk th idea that if you commit to a cause like i am here for saving people, i'my, nl liberation. i'm just saying, i don't know if that is something that we, our young boys to be able to do in the second. no committing risking their because it could really quickly peel off in the other way and jurr know were there too. i know the palestinians ve xj shaheen's people who are willing to they. so just just just very very briefly moanyway so i just find that problematic that that's like i don't know if i want to tell something like just these are the guys you want to aspire to. but let me just expand on, on the point for, for of sentences. you know, the historian timothy distinction between the secondary virtues and primary virtues. so loyalty is a secondary

virtue, but it's a question what 'u' to and absolutely i think a necessary condition of of manhood manliness to use a harvey rm that, as i see it, is exhibiting these secondary virtues. but they are not sufficient unless there is a primary virtue, which is the thing to yourself to, is a morally worthy saving s is both exhibitinse primary being a shaheed. the shaheed, but being a an the vermont in the second world war might exhibit all the secondary. but of course you're in the rvice of of of a monstrous evil. it to be both and we have to teach both. and it's a question then of how those differences might be expressedive or negative ways. right. i think what we're talking about here. but butan be expressed in positive ways, i think is very important. so i'll give u a specific just because it happened to be what

i've become a little bit obsessed recently wsmoke jumpers does hands up, who knows what smoke jumpers right in the audience. okay, fine. so to me, so they are people who paute of a perfectly serviceable into a wildfire the out. and they have to and. there's however many there are federal government employment and. there's an issue about their pay right now and, pr does a story ay of smokejumpers right? what's really intertilong intere jumper and what it's like come the risk,k etc. and it was a woman now women make up a tiny fraction of smokejumpers. it turns out that parachuting out of planes men are inclined towas. i don't know if anybody on panel wants to do it. i know i don't. but the decision of npr to say, okay, well, that's a very male

we highlight the woman doing that job. i understand the thought process, butn th hand, you came away from that not recognized the fact th is somett men do. it's incredibly courageo, it' ia man on npr talking about it on on't want a society where masculine values are seen superior to feminine ones or only to be found in men. around.you wanit tth either. and the hollywood thing, i think, is now just overcorrecting a lit too. i don't want to live in a world i didn't try and raise my sons to live in are basically boys were treated defective, girls. do you think do you think that that's where we are education too often? that's right. it's is like, why can't you be more like your sister? why did you keep moving around? maybe you've got.d.d., it's a medication. all the stuff you talked about, it would be just as much a y, the other way around, too, right we don't want to treat our girls or our women malfunctioning men. in t eighties were told shoulder pads, assertiveness

training, lower your voice than th in words. be like a man if you want to be ceo and that, i want be ceo, but i don't have tore was elizabeth holmes, you there are i mean, female reporters and the newer generation, i feel i think of women feel comfortable being women. but there's an older generation who really do you hear? well, theyere artificially. yeah i'm also margaret thatcher was to lower her voice. but do you think that this is just part of i mean you said that the patriarchy has enr 12,. yeah. and so we are, you know, evolutionarily and historically a blip 20 years is a tiny blip that maybe will self-correct in a few years or■g even half a decade, a decade or two, that what are the stakes it, richard, as concerned of it not correcting itself like, why is this the topic to which you l life? i feel these probms the many

men are facing an advanced economy now are real. they're not confected. last in the us we lo more than 40,000 men to suicide. that as the number of women we lost and. they were white men. they were the dusky by race.'s n men. all right. and and all the other evidence we could go into in education mental but like there's a lot of men especially young men now who are just really struggling to figure out th world, their worth in the world and their value in the world. many cases, don't feel seen if we don't step up and say, yes, so much more to do for women and girls and we see you. if don't do that, their problems neglected beco grievances and grievances feel kinds of thing s not their fault.

it is our for refusing to allow think two thoughts at once and say is simultaneously true. there's a lot more to do for and girls and we've got to pay more attention to it so as we lose them we lose them this is this is the based on anecdote generation of young men who ar losers. i mean in every every conceivable young men who think that sex is what they saw, you know, in pornographic movies or, you know, thathat the way of them being the world ends up being ual disappointment for for women. i mean, you hear about this,:wan the advancedo this is an even bigger problem with women who want nothing to do with young, young men because they, too have lost a sense of what it means to be a man in in

in a modern society. so the stakes are losses that ik richard rightly pointed outt i'o inhabit a so exhibit the virtues attracted and find admirable and but you know one have something to do with. yeah i wanted to say when i sorry when i when i'm talking about this mum's mums will sometimes come up to me and talk about their boys if they're boys watching a lot of andrew tate or struggling with school or whatever. e have school age girls generally aike, what's he talking about? and then when they hit their twenties, thdads come up once tr daughters get to about 2527 and then they suddenly wake up because like, wait, who's she going to marry?s interesting think the barbie movie thing, a lot of young women necessari dad

to them i think the problem with right now, is not that it's wrong, it's just that feels a bit dated. women feel that they're negotiating right now. they're actually of nigating what to do. these guys and what i do with so the sort of the the feminism of of that st felt like it was true 30 years ago maybe but doesn't feel true now i i'm probably going get pilloried for this but i found the abundance of the minority for it to be you. i found it actually a little bit even more. i thought it was less aboutmate power. those who gain ultimate power get ep ultate power and subjugate the weaker ones. right? so the women gain the ultimate power really got a lot out of this barbie movie. and i'm watching it with like, no, but you like, okay. so women women win. they they they they pull victory fr the end and then they continue to subjugate whev men female. it could have been androids, right? but the people who lost get

subjugate i. yeah. no it's a terrib m the conclusion of the movie. yes. that the real world with all its flaws, is more than the fake world. and that barbie is choosing to live in a real world where women age and die and there is loss and grief. yes, that is okay. but not ends get well. that's beautiful. the subject of class also here is no liberation or inequality not. are you with me on this book about the barbie? here we go. it's last section and it's a great movie. except for that no one's bothering me. so what was interesting you're absolutely right about the story arc for barbie, but what about ken? and then the last. oh, ken. ken. and is sheghing? she says you have to figure out who you are withoutthing there n storaru've got to figure who you are without me. that's exactly the question thi.

but the movie gave no, and that's fine because iwas barbie. it was a feminist movie. the movie, didn't it goes on greta gerwig's joto finish arc maybe it was the but it's someone's job and she's not doing it who else is doing okay i'm taking us out of bbi land a second and into the real world because my my colleagueng very n every measure. girls and young k through 12 education inm just gw statistics for every hundred bachelor's degrees that are awarded to women, 744 are awarded to men. the labor force. labor force participation among men in the us droppe by 7% in the last 50 years. even covid, there were 9 million men between the ages of 25 and 54 who were not employed. there are so many statistics i could pull from from k-through's a lot of women i kn. my age who say, great, no, not

great, but let's not cry crocodile tears overother wordsd forever since the 1970s, we've sped up and now we're a little bit ahd.why we bd that that's really the retort h the largely richard that you make so i wonder if someone want to pick that up battle of the sexes know the one of one of the one of the one of the great phrases that screws up everyone's thinking is to say that it's a zero sum competition between men and women or that turning tables amounts to some form■ícosmic justice. i mean, women are suffering either in the decline. if that's the word you want to use of of men and the prominence of of men. a and, you know, who's worried auts he watching what's he doing by himself in hiss? you know what his role models.

what is he reading he's reading at all. every mother of a boy is worried about these days. it's rare to find boys, even, you know, in my generation. you know, i've been thinking about this a lot because i of tony prep school in new where money was almost limitless. and my son middle very much wanted somethingñorent. and so he ended up going to a school in■a just outside of sedona, arizona, actually. how. gross audience? his grandson went there was a dear friend of my my had very lf practically. but what the school taught resilience. the school taught toughness. and my eighth grade makid who lf there was a fly in the room

suddenly like, well, yeah, there was a tarantula in the room, but it was kind of cute rent to rent a room in the grand canyon. nothing fazes him like something about boys need that exposure with opportunities to demonstrate various kinds of courage and you mentioned safety i mean the concept safety ism has become, i in pervasive in in our culture. do feel safe boys? do not want to feel safe. boys want to feeled used to risk. and we have get back to a doing it without having to sign endless papers for lawyers. god forbid they're going to scrape their knees or hurt themselves way. you know, quiterankly, you know, now my son is talking about joining after college. he very much to be liofficer a't of part of of himself. it would help to make to createe

becomes a more a option and it could be national ot service a more attractive option for for young men because i notice in my own experience when i'm meeting young young men and women, young men coming of the service, they are qualitatively better people than. those who who didn't experience. and that goes for me, too. they're better than i. so it's so interesting that when yo■,u ntary service, there's one of those interesting smaller data points rather than the big education ones. there are twice as many women in the peace corps as men and twice as many women in americorps as &8men. and so that sort of stepping into service isls and the issue, i think, for a lot is men is this sensepassivis underpinned script, is now not being sure you're going all agre

that it's a universal human nto. and i think that's a bi but the question you asked at the beginning of areas like do these gender gaps matter, rht. we've had them one way for ages. the skip other way. does it really matter? well, i think it depends. es matter that that boys are so far behind girls in school and in co does that matter, there's a big a bigger gender gap today in education th t just the other wy around. so in seventies, boys were and men were way ahead of women and girls in education we thought that was the problem. and we looked at the system and tried to say, hold when you've got that big a gender■w gap. that does suggest that maybe the system's not actually quite fair to girls and now we've got an even bigger gap other way round. i thinkant an education system t serves boys and girls animatinga of the women's movement. i think it applies both ways. i think it's incumbent on the people on the other of the argument to say why gender gaps

of this scale don't matter, face, anybody should look at a gender gap of that and go, okay, that's troubling. we should look at what's causing that and see if we can't fix it. ngs that i there was an article that came out in the ve seen it that has these new gallup polls are really generational cohort sort of move together politically. but the gap between young men and young women when it comes to politics is crazy. mm hmm. the gallup poll between the aged 30 in this country are 30 percentage points liberal than their male contemporary. past six years. similar numbers, germany, similar er words, young women becoming just much, much more politically progressive, young men becoming more conservative. what how do you guys explain that? well, there's a very good piece by daniel cox■hñ' from enterprie institute on that data. and i've written about it, too.

you're right to sayfar, most ofn young to the left, and now it men are moving to the right as well. some huge gaps in southinterests sort. i was looking at a couple of between south korean young men and young women is even bigger and presidentileally swung on tf young men with a promise from sh the ministry gender equality. and so this is issue is playing out politically now in a way that's very trouble my of this is that if men don't feel as prr mainstream left is paying attention to their issues and is ■honestly trying to address the, that just means that inevitably and maybe maybe depending on where they go, it's not necessarily a terrible thing. they might start to say, listen? the is that what's on offer from the conservatives on the other side is reaction by and large

and the young audience through know who knows. it was a show. that's amazing show. just to g't feel badly when when. yeah, well, this is a good thing, but i just anecdotally i spoke at jewish high school in pittsburgh, my hometown. it was an orthodox school, not the kind ods think listening to entertain who's an open misogynist convert to islam the number one topic they wanted to talk to me a■( was andrew tate. he is one of the most sort of most influential people online over the last five years. yeah, no question. no question. i just think he's come up a few time just want to there's this massive generational divide in derstanding and what's happening. i think among young men. i'm just not knowing it. blessed to have three young men, all my sons in their twenties now. so i'his and they've alerted me. in fact, when i was finishing book, my youngest son said, you've t guy, andrew tate. and i said, who is andrew tate?

i looked at him, ignored him, cause my son was. right. but i think a more interesting figure in this regard is somebody like senator josh hawley, who has his own book, is a bit critical of of my work to be fair. and so he has a book out. his book is called man hood. i always got that wrong, man manhood i can'tn manner the masculine virtues america. there's some good stuff in the bo, th basic message is, number one, a lot of men and boys struggling. number two, mainstream institutions are ignoring those struggles. number three, that's because those institutions hate men and, hate masculinity and want to get rid of it as part of the woke world order, which is why you should■ vote me and i'll bring back marriage and manufacturing. so and two points. first two are true boys and men are struggling. those issues are neglected. and so senator hawley is able to say and the reason because all those people on the left hate men. i don't write for me. and that's an incredibly message. and too many people are saying

actually they skip over one an two. it's true. and we all neglect again say, why are all these men turningn'. i raised them on ruth bader ginsburg speeches and and it's because like you're just you know, you're gettinghe of these young men don't feel like you're paying attenon but would have, w did i finally turn my son on to reading was andrew biography of churchill then rightuthen he was then he got to the biography of grant. on think it's not coincidental that military history is is at neglected. and by the way i don't think princeton prceto university. so when someone at princeton was telling me historian, if you sty history atactually spends his te ying war but this is should not insight boys are interested in this stuff mean i

remember in stuff and and you know military tt■ how these things unfold in and who are the main actors and w patton you know how was patton as a general so on i grooved that as a kid and we do not offeraccess to a worls of of human that correspond with what interests them. so then we wonder our ys don' b. they don't want to read what, you know, theiristers are reading and that's fine. but we should make sure that they're readingey will start anp night. you know, i feel like matt wants to say he did not groove on that kind of. no, i did groove. stinctly sitting on the toilet hours moving on these ke atlas is history. i was william manchester's yeah but and

biography of churchill's by far superior i will say but not at far many parents here i'm obviously a tiny person. right. i'm a smallson. i had grit, i had resilin i was ferocious, i wasssive i was pure testosterone as a young man. my son is different. he is completely different. all i did play sports. athlete. all of them were physical i played football. i wrestled, i played lacrosse. and then i play rugby and destroyed my face college. right. like i■r at 22 to israel. like this is what i s very diff. first, a he's like, i'm not interested sports. likes tohasn't changed he you know roughhouse a bit but he's not that into it he very different than i am and that i . it's very early o accepting ande

forge a realizing that he's not going to groove on the things that iw up done. and i imagine that throughout there have been b where you know he's, just different his parent and he's not interested in martial aspects of manhood manliness he want to draw and he wants to play with his stuffed animals and create scenes and that's all he he's headed for but the point is, if you get what i'm saying, i feel like we're we're what the beauty of and i know we're short on time. well, no, i'm about to announce the plug that. we are now able to sho■?w our■u children, men and young boys, that is that it is not monolithic. and i feel like part of thisstud distracts from the reality that i see as a parent and i see it and the school that's a nice transition to your book because you've written a book about how basically had panic attacks did

little about it denied it was happening how much of that denial had to do with your own sense of yourculinity. an excellent question a lot and one of the salves for panic and it turned out being the least masculine activity crying crying acrying and it helped i mean and i cried by using and i so one of the things that i had to do was get out of■r my right mind. so i did breathwork and i did mushrooms and, ayahuasca and the licked desert toads and every possible psychedelic you can imagine that tortured the body and let the mind go free in did because i couldn't get there in the right mind. possibly because i am kind of rigid in that way now i'm better at it,g, you know, was something that really, really helped me.

ich was not typically a masculine activity right. i was going to say. but how much of yournability to get there was because you felt like you're in cultur wherr girls or releasing is for, you know what i'm saying? probably not an insignificant proportion of it. i would say, or this is not something that i should be. i'm really worried that things health are increasingly female or feminine. so we just put out a research research rephology is becoming e profession, social work. and i just that one of the reasons we're picking up more anxiety teen girls is screy among girls andwithout cost unde affordable act. but the same is not and men. we do not cover screening for anxiety among boys and men under the affordable act for reasons that are too boring to go into in the last seconds. t the it's not a feminist plot. it's the result of a public

policy. but part of that is because of the sense that this is a thing that girls froth from and the pn that the men■s enter t■; and t't cry, etc. so two quick points. one is bto the gist. the distribution's overlapping. we don't have honor the exceptions. the rule, like your son or others, ignore that there are on the average rules. we don't have to have androgyny to have equality and we can have exceptio a honor those exceptions. i agree with you. that's a wonderful but we've alsot got recognize that a lot of these men and boys just need more help and in some cases even need more friends. so one thing we haven't really 15% of men under the age of 30 sat have a single close friend. wow. all right. that was only 3% in j■y99 is asl kinds of other issues. and so the environments places , especially as families are

changing, that's huge. and the surgeon has quite rightly drawn ntloneliness epid. what he hasn't done quite yet is to recognize is highly gendered as well. lonely young men. it is shocking. we've got to have more for them without in any way you look and you just i know we're running out ofe. but one of the things i think you've touched on this very well masculinity looks like donald trump, which should■lq/ iideal . it's a fake idea. and in some w react chinnery ida of what being is know, owning yn and turning and putting them down and havi k of man aura and having trophy wives and you this kind of thing. an's one of the many reasons i find the phenomenon sickening, but we don't ge back to a healthier, masculine culture until weqk understand what that

should look like. right? if we don't like his answer, we need be't end on donald trump. 20 seconds each. who is your male role model? i'm going to take my 20 seconds for something else. i think it's absolutely criminal that screening for is not part of the health care is not covered especially sce it isn: males in our who are most likely by far to perpetrate mass ac ki. and that is something has to be addressed and i think is extruded nearly dangerous sorry it's the result this asymmetric view the zero sum. it's a cliche but it is my father. my father molewhat i referred to in some of my writing as relational masculine rather tmasculinity. the idea that it's masculine to go your own way and separate yose opposite masculinity. my dad was all about giving more than generating a surplus and. about you give and what you give others threough relationships,

masculinity is not formed in isolation. it's formed c families and in relation ship. and he was an absolute melor me of what relational masculinity like. right. last word. my thought late father modeled t would kind of kindness a. straightness chan everything he true. as i get a r children i think of how i fall shof3 the sh a high standard and the same here. thanu sá■u■f■[içñ