>> joseph epstein long time "wall street journal" has written his autobiography called never say humana lucky like especially if you got a lucky like. he spent 20 years as editor is an american scholar 30 years teaching in the wish department. early in this he writes, i felt extremely lucky in all these realms in which i have no choice. throwing religion, city social on this episode notes plus available on stand now free mobile app for wherever you get your podcast.

>> c-span, unfiltered view of government funded by these television companies and mark mccook. ♪♪ mccook support c-span as a public service along with these on television providers giving you a front row seat to democracy. >> we are joined now opinion enter and author of second class america's working men and women. welcome. >> thank you for having me, it's an honor to be here with you. m- welcome, batya.

guest: good morning. host: what did you want to highlight as you went into this project? guest: well, it had become clear to me that a lot of the polarization that we have seen constantly, the fighting we see in congress and the fighting in the media was really a very much elite phenomenon. i became very convinced that the real divide in america was not actually between right and left but between an over credentialed , multiple degrees, college educated elite, and the vat american middle and working-class. i saw poll after poll that showed that americans were more united than denied it, and i would turn on my tv and see the division, that did not reflect where the average american was

cute i wanted to understand this phenomenon, i wanted to understand who is the american working class, and do they still have a fair shot at the american dream? that is what really led to "second class." host: who did you talk to for this book, and how did you find those people that you talked with? guest: it is such a great question. i wanted to talk to working-class people across the country, so i knew i was going to spend a year traveling around to different corners of the country come interviewing people of different races, different genders. and i wanted my interviews to be representative of larger trends. i knew there was going to be limit on how many people i could talk to, whether 70 people or 100 people, but i wanted the people i put in the book to be representative of larger trends, either of geographical trends, or trends of their industries. i went to a professor called joe

price, and his grad students will work with journalists like me who work in the softer scientist, and they will help you analyze data. i asked them to take the data from the american census survey from 2000 and 2020, so i can see the trends come and they gave me a data perspective, a bird's-eye view who is the american working class, where are they working, where they live, where are they more likely to be able to own a home? which working-class industries are more likely to have people become homeowners, and once i had this sort of data set, i could then go out and look at people who represented the largest groups and tell their stories, and those are the stories that you will find in "second class." host: so as you were talking with these people, did you come across any trends of what they wanted or how they defined the american dream, present-day? guest: absolutely. the definition i came across

most frequently of what the american dream is, people said the american dream is when you are able to cover all your bills, you own your own home, you are going to be able to retire with dignity, you have adequate health care, and your children have at least as many choices as you do. now, within the working-class, some people really are able to achieve the american dream, but some people are really not. homeownership is a big deal, buying your first home has become extremely unaffordable these days, but also, there are a lot of people in this country who work and work and are still poor, they are still teetering on poverty. so that kind of economic diversity within the working-class was a big feature. that said, despite this economic diversity, despite the racial diversity of americans working-class when i found really shocked me, and when it came to ideology, when it came to policy, they came to what

working-class americans thought would help to better achieve the american dream there was almost no difference between working-class americans who vote for democrats and working-class americans who vote for republicans when it came to what policies they supported. host: going back to talking about that american dream, i know you said that is something going into this book that you wanted to talk about, if it is still achievable. what is the consensus? working people and their definition of the american dream, is it something they can still achieve? guest:guest: so most of the people i interviewed had a very similar view on it. this is what they told me. they only people who work working-class who had achieve the american dream, but they save your hard work is no longer enough to guarantee it so you can do everything right, you can make every right decision, you can avoid all the vices, and it is still a 50/50 shot of whether

you will be able to make it into the middle class or whether you will be downwardly mobile and become part of the working poor. there are sources outside of their control, and of course if you make one mistake, it is almost impossible to get back on that track. so they felt that, you know, you can achieve it, but it is not completely up to you. i have to tell you, everyone i interviewed works so hard, and they took a lot of pride in their work. in the west, people tend to think of working-class people as, well, why don't we give them more welfare, why don't we give them affordable housing, why don't we give them vouchers? but the people i interviewed, whether they were democrats or republicans, they did not want handouts. what they wanted was for their hard work, which they work so hard, to reward them with the most modern version of a stable life, and that is no longer the case for many of the people i interviewed. host: probably a good definition

or understanding to have for your book and also the conversation is, how do you define "working-class"? who falls into that category? guest: it is a surprisingly hard thing to define. i talked to a lot of sociologists, historians, experts who have helped me come up with a definition, because i knew what i was describing. i was describing a class divide. if you have a college degree, you will on average make over $1 million more throughout the course of your career than somebody who does not have a college degree. if you have a college degree, you are much more likely to be able to own a home, your health is better, you live longer, and your life is insulated from the kind of precariousness and instability that plagues the working-class. that divide is very real, and it is entrenched in america, which used to be a country that we like to think of ourselves as a classless society. there is a class divide, so i

wanted to describe the people on the underside of the divide. it working-class person is somebody who works full-time in an industry that does not require skills you would learn in college but who has been locked out of the top 20%. the point of this clunky definition, i admit, is really what is happening in the course of america over the last 50 years is through multiple policies that were put in place, mostly by democrats, actually, the american dream has been set aside for people in the knowledge industry, people who have that college degree, and people who are working-class, who don't have that degree, have been increasingly left out of the cold, despite the fact that they work so much harder and that their labor -- we all rely on it in order to survive. host: we are talking with batya ungar-sargon about her book, "second class: how the elites betrayed america's working men and women."

if you have a question or comment, you can join the conversation. the phone lines are divided regionally, eastern/central, your line is (202) 748-8000. and, mountain/pacific, (202) 748-8001. batya, when we talk about the working-class, how has the environment, how has it changed over the past few decades? guest: so, back in the 1970's, which was the high watermark for working-class wages. they really stagnated after that, and then in really real dollars have fallen. the largest share of the gdp was in the middle. the middle-class presented the largest share of our economy. today, that has shifted upwards, but not to be billionaires the way that the people in the top 10% like to complain. the share of the gdp that is

controlled by the billionaires has not significantly changed since the 1970's. so where did all that gdp go? "second class"second class there was a middle-class -- well, there was a middle-class squeeze, so a lot of that gdp was squeezed upwards to the people in the top 20%, these people with multiple degrees who work in the knowledge industry. those people now control over 50% of the gdp, whereas a lot of working-class people were squeeze downward into the lower middle class and into the lower classes, to where they are now struggling. so back in the 1970's, if you were a college professor and you work in a factory, an auto worker, and autoworker coming probably made around the same amount of money. that is no longer the case because of that middle-class squeeze. how did that middle-class squeeze happen? it started with nafta appeared we took 5 million good paying jobs and shift them overseas to china and mexico, where they are

happily building up china and mexico's middle-class, even as we speak. president obama defunded vocational training, which used to be a very solid pathway to the american dream for the working-class. and we have a huge dearth of skilled trades folks, and that is a result of that funding, we gave $2 billion to colleges and $1 billion to trade schools, even though we are overproducing college degrees and under producing people who can fix things with their hands. the most important thing, perhaps, is mass immigration. in 1971, the high watermark for working-class wages, that share was going somewhere else, 4%, today it is 15% on a 16%, and the majority of those immigrants, especially the ones who came here illegally, worked

in working-class trees, where you don't need a degree, you don't need a commander of the english language, necessarily, so they are directly competing with janitors, landscapers, construction workers, and driving down their wages simply because there is a glut of labor available. and one of the only ways to raise working-class wages is to restrict the number of laborers. all of these policies together have contributed in a big way to the view that working-class labor is less dignified and less deserving of the american dream. that has been very much part of democratic policy throughout the last years. host: we have callers lined up to talk to you. we will go first to andrew in newark, new jersey. andrew, go ahead. caller: i think that the way that you present the issue is a little bit fake, you know? all americans get 12 years of

public education, paid by society, the same way in europe, everyone gets mandatory 12 your funded education as well. however, at the end of 12 years of public education in america, after 12 years, education, you go to medical school, whatever graduate school you want to. in america, four very expensive years of college, which is really just high school material, professors who you never get, you get the pa or someone teaching you. these four years are probably the most expensive years of your life. you don't have to pay for a masters or phd because you usually get grants or so on. a cost nothing to get a high school degree in america. it costs a fortune to get a college degree.

and what is a college be green? it is a finishing of high school. if you are going to complain about the working-class in america, keep in mind that most of them don't come and train for the jobs that they really want, and they into in the jobs of low education. so unless you make american high school education more meaningful, more educational, then it would be more like it is in european countries. this problem is going to persist forever. host: but? your response. guest: i agree with a lot of what you said, andrew. i have a phd, and i think there is a lot of chicanery, nico cooper read going on in higher education. -- nincompoopery going on in higher education. in high school, students already get funneled into three trucks, one truck goes to college, one

truck goes to middle-class education, and in one class goes to vocational training. already in highs will, students will come out of high school ready to take on a trade. it is unconscionable that we are not doing that. it is unconscionable that we have told young people in america that in order to achieve the most modest version of the american dream, you have to study algebra and shakespeare. come on! what are we doing here? we literally signal to students that if you don't go to college, you are a loser. it is such a mistake, because many of these trades folks, and what we are doing is devaluing working-class life. yet i think have in europe, and germany, again, is a wonderful example of this basic oral bargaining. you have a sector of the economy, service workers, waiters, baristas, people who stock in circle -- in supermarkets.

these people as an industry establish their own minimum wage, the protections of the job, the hours of the job, and this gives them immense powers to compete with corporations and to give themselves a strong footing from which to protect their labor and give themselves a living they have and something -- living wage and give themselves something to have. host: john in new york, go ahead. caller: thank you for taking my call. i really want to thank you come about yeah, for coming out and saying these things out. i have always 77. i taught school for almost 40 years. during that time, there was a decline in education. it was really disturbing. the administrators and

principals and teachers being more tolerant of people not working hard. the elites, especially in college, they were all liberal. they all indoctrinated students and some of "woke" miasma, so what we are seeing now is the students feel entitled. if you talk to them, and you given facts and pacific's, whether a cultural issue, an economic issue, they just toe the party line. they have no intellectual curiosity, so to speak. it is just frustrating to see all this. so the fact that you're coming on and exposing this -- let me make one last statement.

i have friends them and they are very successful, and because they are successful in one industry or one field, they feel entitled to pontificate and talk to people, talk down to people because of their success. i look at guys like bill gates, they have a masonic complex. they are going to socially near the world to make everything better, and they are the ones who could do it, whether it is zuckerberg or these people. it is very frustrating. i'm very concerned about the future of the country when i see this happening. so the fact that you are doing this and are exposing best, i hope people are listening. i hope they understand, because we have a great deal to lose. so, thank you for your time. bye-bye. host: batya? guest: i'm very humbled by that. thank you for your service, john, teaching our kids for so many years. you brought up a really interesting point. this thing called wokeness, the

other extreme view on race and gender that throws we the decision between drivers is wrong and instead and opposes the view between oppressors and oppressed, and the oppressed are inherently virtuous, this has trickled down into high school s, and it is the perfect smokescreen for the class divide i'm talking about. it allows them to masquerade as the side of the virtuous and on the side of "the little guy," while actually having immense amount of contempt for hard-working, middle-class people, and to show their distance from hard-working regular working-class and middle

class, they come up with an idea that is foreign, just at the time would average americans became totally convinced that dr. king was right, totally convinced and unified around the values that this great nation was founded on. thank you so much for the call, john. i'm truly humbled by it. thank you. host: batya, some of the things that you talk about in your book, you use the phrase " diploma divide," "diploma glass ceiling," "degree inflation," can you explain what some of those are and how they are connected to what you were just talking about? guest: absolutely. so, you know, we all remember the time that, you know, people like president clinton and president obama started saying, you know, these jobs are not coming back, like these manufacturing jobs, that somehow there was some sort of inevitability of creating a market and economy around everyone going to college, everyone will get new skills, everyone will join the knowledge

industry. and so what they did is they started to funnel a lot of this funding toward the college education, under the idea that this would widen the pathway to the american dream, create a larger middle-class, but what it actually did was the opposite. it narrowed the past because, you know, only some people are going to excel at college, only some people will be able to enjoy that setting and be able to do well in it. only some people are going to be able to come out of that college degree and find a job that requires a college we are already overproducing college-educated americans, so 50% of americans who have a college degree are what is called under employed. they are working a job that is not require any skills learned that college, right? there are too many people like that, and meanwhile, there are a whole bunch of jobs that still need doing that our society will always require -- truck drivers,

people working in health care, looking after the elderly, people working in the service industry and hospitality. we are always going to need people to do those jobs, but this view of "everyone has to go to college to get the american dream" ended up devaluing those jobs some both spiritually and economically, to where now if you are a waiter, now if you look after the elderly, now if you are a truck driver, you can know longer for the homework save the american dream. why is that fair? and it was the result of intentional policies. i think that is the important thing to keep in mind, which may have started from a good place but may have ended up justifying the content that college-educated people have for people who work with her hands. the diploma divide, if you have a college degree, like i said, on average you will make $1

million more throughout the course of your life. it is not because your work is more valuable, it is just because of the way they have divided the economy, whereas jobs who don't require college, randomly require a college degree, simply in order to cater to that elite and to give them more money into squeeze more of the gdp in their direction. that is the diploma divide. if you get that degree, even if you are not using any skills you learned in college, you will make more money. and if you don't have that degree, you won't even get an interview, because the corporation is using its software to funnel out applicants who do not have that degree. and that is really unfair. host: we will go next to jim in virginia. go ahead. caller: yes, hello. , again,? -- batya?

i think i'm saying that right. guest: yes. go ahead. caller: i appreciate what you are doing. i started in the 1980's, like exec in a working-class guy, i did not go to college at all. i made my way can i build my own house with my own hands, i build another house, and i moved along, i was making a pretty good, especially when reagan came in, that is when everything started commanded everything turned, you know, like flatlined. and then trump came in and it is like someone clicked a light switch for working people. you could make money, you could actually work with your hands and make enough money to survive and take care of your family you cannot do that with joe. it is like every time you go everywhere, everything doubles, triples, quadruples, it is ridiculous what is going on. i live through jimmy carter, who was a nightmare. i don't know how i made it back

then. now it is like right back to the same thing. and you are exactly right. everything that you are talking about is what is happening. young people are so disheartened, especially young man, they just can't work hard enough to make it come and they cannot afford to take care of their family. i don't know what happened with young people. i'm trying to teach my grandkids to be smart now, but, you know, i don't know what's going to happen. i appreciate everything you are doing. that's all i've got to say. guest: thank you so much, jim. thank you for your call. i think what you said is very important for people to understand. when i was interviewing working-class people, i traveled around the country, spoke to about 100 people, definitely very divided in terms of party they voted for, but they were not divided about which president had put money in their pocket, and i spoke to a lot of who had voted for joe biden who admitted to me that truck had

put money back in their pockets. i think there is this view among democrats and on the left that the way to help people who are working-class is to sort of raise taxes on the ridge and then redistribute it. and then the pretrial gop, the way you help people who are struggling is no tax, tax cuts, and it will trickle down as the rich get rich enough, and the truth is neither of those work for where working-class are out here what they want is for the fruit of their labor to deliver a dignified wage. the way that they think, the best way to do that is somewhere between the middle of the two parties. they don't want other people's tax dollars, they don't feel entitled to them, and they feel insulted at the idea of handout, but they also don't like a culture that size with corporations against the little guy and only cares about tax cuts for the rich. what they want is a trade

policy, and immigration policy, a housing policy, a health care policy that speaks to the little guy who is working with his hands and working very hard. honestly, in many ways, the policies that were put in place by donald trump in terms of immigration and in terms of trade, really spoke to working-class people, whether they were white or black or hispanic or even democrats or even gay. i interviewed a gay certified nurses aide from florida, and she told me again and again that truck had put money in her pockets. by the way, she was married to a woman who voted for trump, because her wife felt that trump was a person who could not be bought. and her wife's mother respected their choices and one of her daughter to be happy. the american working class is so not polarized about the issues that are polarized among the elites, who are on the extreme. host: we will go to pat in new

york. pat, go ahead. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i want to say, first of all, the u.s. as a nation is a nation driven more so by profit and controlled by powers of finance. education is an industry here, just like so many other ones, pharmaceuticals, etc. i want to say i worked as a quality assurance representative for the u.s. government, department of defense. in the 1980's, when i started working, most of the companies i visited -- and i visited hundreds of them. i worked and audited them, worked with them. i noticed that their employees had more benefits, they had more pension, 401(k)'s, they had a lot of other things that today, after retiring, i noticed a lot of these new workers in the same industries are basically working from week to week on a salary. so, you know, things have changed.

the middle class has been squeezed. i had only a two-year community college business degree, but i was able to get into the government. i was able to have this job. i was able to take it overseas for many years. i was a representative for our government. i chaired meetings with nato, many countries in germany. i had an amazing job, meeting with the embassy, it all i had was this two-year degree. i was awarded by admirals, generals. so the education that i had, including my military technical education, was enough to propel me to higher levels without having, you know, the ribbons, this is to, cetera while i was in europe, i also met students from russia who were telling me they were forced to go to college in their country to learn some kind of trade commit if they were not good enough in the medical field, they had to take art or music or something. and this education was given to them for free. in europe, the students in

europe could afford it. it subsidized, so they are all able to get university education. the point is, the school should be free from students. it should be provided for them, because you don't know what you can make out of a poor population who can't afford to go to school, what can come out of the population? incredible people, if they are given the opportunity to learn. the other thing is the type of learning. i believe senator bernard said it before he died if i the senate that our education system has changed, it is not concentrate anymore on social sciences, sociology, history, civics, political sciences. they develop the human mind, create thinking people as opposed to just technical sciences, so they can learn computer or engineering trades to make a profit for the factory. the drive has changed. there's always things that have to be taken into consideration.

i believe amy goodman set on "democracy now," the american dream used to be owning our own house. today it has been trying to get rid of your debt. this is the situation we have been put in. it is all driven by money. we don't have moral drivers anymore. look at the campuses now. host: we got your point, pat. let's get a response from batya. guest: thank you so much, pat. i agree with you, the 1970's, the high water mark of the working-class wages. 29% of the economy was in manufacturing. when you had working-class people making things like cars for working because american consumers, so their bosses had a vested interest in making sure there workers were well played, because they are -- their workers were well paid, because

they were there consumers. you had americans producing in americans consuming. the gdp would go up every time you made a sale like that. it was a really balance economy. today, the largest sector of our economy is in, speculation, financial invasion, arbitrage, corporations by another corporations them and then they can to skimp, down to the penny. go back to the certified nurses aide, she told me after the third time the nursing home she worked at was sold, there was a big premium on, they spend one dollar a day to feed ph of the elderly people in a nursing home. one dollar a day could you can imagine what the food is like they are. -- there. the bosses are not beholden to americans, they are beholden to the shareholders. it is so immoral. the example of feeding the

elderly on a dollar a day, can you imagine working your whole life in this country, paying taxes, and you are 88 years old, you are confined to a bed, and they are feeding you this garbage? it is so immoral. so i totally agree with that. yeah. host: batya, something you mentioned earlier, and pat just mentioned it, not needing a four year degree to get ahead, you mentioned the difference in government investment between higher education and vocational or trade school. why is it that big of a difference, and what impact is that having? guest: it is a direct result of the idea that, you know, the future of our economy was going to be in college. everyone was going to be in college. so president obama defunded vocational training. so that money was sent to places where you get a four-year degree. it made no sense at the time, right? we will always need plumbers, electricians, truck drivers.

there are parts of our economy that will never go away. we are always going to need waiters. we are always going to be women who clean hotel rooms. and actually there are people in places in the country where these people are paid a living wage. if you look at las vegas, the average woman who cleans a hotel in las vegas makes $22 an hour. that is a solidly middleweight in some parts of the country. las vegas itself is sort of a test case for whatever economy look like if we had a secured border and immigration policy that respected the labor of working-class americans. if you think about a place like harvard that has a $40 billion endowment, why are we giving taxpayer dollars? how does that make any sense? and the students come out of these colleges with immense debt, they are very unhappy about it, but, again, when you

hear president biden say "we are going to pay off that student debt," imagine how that sounds to working class americans we will take taxpayer money, you did not get to go to college, you do not get the benefit of a college degree, we will be making $1 million over the course of your career, but we will pay off their debt. it is an upward transference of welcome and they are not happy about that. host: we will go to mike in aurora, colorado. hi, mike. mike, are you with this? we will try one more time. we will go on to paul in new york city. caller: hi. how are you doing? not that i disagree so much with the presenter here, but she is fairly coming in from new york city, which is where i am from.

people who make a decent amount in new york city pay a lot in taxes. so the idea that is number one. the idea that college makes you an elite come on looking at the internet here, and something close to like 46% of the population has either an associates or bachelors degree. you are saying half of the population is delete? that sounds -- elite? that sounds a little hard to swallow. i do agree with a little of what you're saying, but just to circle back to the first caller, and that is, what happens in education -- the reason why these businesses and would have you are going for people with college degrees, when that is not really required for the actual job, is because it is a sorting ability, but it does

provide some sort of guide to the employer that the person has gone through a bunch of boring courses and what have you and has been able to gradually, they are able to do it because there are so many people who have. that goes back to the problem of 12 years of k-12 where basically people are not being educated very well. despite the amount of money that is being spent, k-12 in the united states, pursed, we spend more than most european countries, like luxembourg might spend more, but the reality is, the results are much worse. and eric adams, who is the mayor of new york city, has identified that as a problem in new york city, how much money is being spent has increased, yet the results are quite bad. and i think, again, you have to go back. i appreciate your book, but i tend to have a little disagreement here.

i think it is hard to say that obama was the only reason why there is less spending on vocational training. there was not much before hand, either. guest: thank you so much. great questions. i agree with you. it is always great to get a few moments of disagreement and debate. i'm a big fan of that. thank you so much. all right, let's start with the elites. 33% of americans have a four-year college degree. of them, 20%, the top 20%, they are overrepresented in that top 20% in the knowledge industry. of course some people get a college degree and omega. 11% of people in service industry jobs have a college degree, right? service industry jobs are a very difficult way to achieve the american dream and america.

that top 33%, that upward squeeze from the middle, those people control a lot of what happens in this country, a lot of the political decisions are aimed at them. there is an entire party now that is catering basically to the top 20% of over credentialed college elites and the dependent poor. that is the democrat party now. their base used to be labor, for now it is the two extremes, people who can't work or don't work, people who depend on government welfare, and the top 20% who are extremely well-off compared to working-class americans. so i agree with you, you know, yeah. you cannot call 46% of the country elite. i'm talking about that top 20%. and it is not like the aristocracy, top 1%, but that is the argument i'm making, is really the top 20% who is hoarding the american dream for themselves, and honestly, i

think he's right that the taxes are much higher in blue america, but to me, that is a little bit like an indulgence that the rich are willing to pay in order to maintain their status and their standard come and they really do not distinguish between a dependent poor and the working class, because they are so much better off. it is not really like charity, it is more like an indulgence. what are they buying off? they are buying off a system that rewards them with a system that is leaps and bounds ahead of their cleaning lady and their landscaper and their construction worker in the truck driver who brings the groceries to their house and all of these people whose labor they rely on to sustain themselves. host: batya, along that point, "the carolina journal" has a headline study can only 2% of state lawmakers come from the working-class. and from the "washington post" opinion, a recent piece points

out that if members of the working-class were proportionately represented in congress, they would make up 60% to 70% of lawmakers instead of the 2% to 5% that have historically won seats. so, if they were proportionately represented, what impact would that have on these policies? guest: that is such a great question. i will tell you about this sort of wonderful middleware i found, like, the vast majority of working-class democrats and republicans agree on issues. you will hear how different it is from the party platforms, ok? most of the people were extremely pro-gay, they had maybe a gay person in their life or were very tolerant and wanted gay people to be treated with respect. they were very worried about the transgender agenda, about, you know, bathroom situations, about sports, trans women competing

against women in sports, they were very worried about, you know, inappropriate books in schools and children being exposed to sexualized material, that was whether they were democrats or republicans, right? the republicans were very pro-gay, and the democrats were worried about the "transgender agenda." they were worried about people skimming off the system while they work hard, both the republicans. but also, they were not against raising taxes on the rich and corporations. they were very excited about how much mass immigration there has been to this country, and they could see in their bottom line how it impacted their wages into very direct way, but they were also very upset that health care is unaffordable, that people have medical bankruptcy, that they had worked so hard with their bodies and yet have deductibles that are $5,000 a year that you have every penny that they are able to save. so which parties today vote for, right? the democrats will talk about

health care but really believe in, you know, decriminalizing illegal border crossing, as we saw an 2019 in the debates. republicans believe in securing the border, but they will never talk about health care. so it is a total crapshoot which party they vote for. these, you know, 98% of legislators who have a college degree, they come out of college and come out of the university very much believing that whatever the party platform agenda is, that is there sort of spiritual, political truth. working-class people don't have that at all. if they were in charge, what you would have is, you know, universal health care, basically a total moratorium on immigration, you would have very strict trade policies, tariffs on many imports. you would have, you know, very strongly pro-gay marriage but very against trans women in women's sports come in bathrooms. parents would have total say over what kind of bugs are allowed in their children's schools. there is a radical