books available for purchase over there. and then thanks again to reggie and stratosvalerie bauman is a t

of over two decades standing who describes herself as less lois lane, more jimmy breslin. she is covered such disasters as katrina and the new york state legislature for outlets like ap and newsday. she currently for newsweek as an investigative reporter. and inconceivable is her first book. she'll be in conversation with kristal knight who you might seen as a commentator on msnbc or fox news. or you may have listened her as the host of the kristal knight podcast hosted by newsweek. she is a graduate of the howard university journalism program. knight is also a political operative, founded the voting rights nonprofit, organized tennessee. so please me in welcoming to politics and prose union market valerie bauman and kristal knight.

good evening. hello. and before we get into the conversation, i know, valerie, you wanted give us a little bit of background and do a reading before we actually have our about the question and answers as well. you know, keep it short. just i think that was a great introduction. thank you so much. i just for little bit more background i was 38 in the middle of the pandemic. i realized i was out of time. it was now or never. now, four years later, i'm actually pregnant finally and have a baby the way very soon. and it's just been a really long, strange journey and. i came across this world and i just realized it was a story i had to tell. so i'm going to read just a little bit about some of the legal aspects this and this is

from 11 of my book. congratulations. you're a father. trent arsenal couldn't have expected federal agents to appear at his door demanding to search his home, but in 2010. the self-described christian version became the first ever private -- donor to be targeted for fda and, for osment, the fda's center for biologics and research. seeber sent arsenal a cease and desist order and threatened him with a $100,000 fine due to his prolific private donations that same year agents appeared at his door and searched his home on four separate occasions. the california man made 328 donations to 46 different recipients with the intent to get them pregnant at the time, his efforts had resulted in 40

births. the number rose to at least 25 as trent continued donating throughout the federal enforcement. although he abstained sex. trent had still testing every six months and had been providing fresh --, primarily to lesbian couples free of charge. since 2006. seeber said that because trent failed to provide his donations through a bank or clinic and hadn't had the extensive and expensive weekly testing and the mandatory six month freeze in quarantine of -- that all -- donors must complete. he was in violation of federal laws and regulations governing donation of biological tissue, yet wide evidence of even more prolific in operation today, the fda has not gone after a single -- donor since trent was forced to shut down personal operation

more than a decade ago. now that freelance -- donation is exploding the agency will soon need to grapple with how and it plans to regulate growing form of reproductive activity among private americans. sievers sole foray into fray via trent's case, only served to raise an uncomfortable ethical and legal question for the agency, which may be the reason no freelance donor has been targeted in the same way under. what circumstances can the government tell you not to conceive another person? the fda is strict and costly regulations around donating a -- with a known donor aren't required. the man is a quote sexually intimate partner of the recipient. the problem is that the government has no clear definition a sexually intimate partner, an admission that became central in the proceedings in trent's case. in fact, silber asserted in that

case the plain meaning of the words do require further explanation try. trent and others contend that having someone's -- in your body via artificial insemination qualifies them as a sexually intimate partner partner. and that continued exposure to that person's -- for the purposes of getting pregnant pose no additional risk to the recipient, nor would it violate laws governing donation. the this argument is key for trent all freelance -- donors, but also because recipients who want work with a known -- donor but go through clinic, say, instead of the back seat of a volkswagen, could also forgo the costly freezing and six month quarantine that would otherwise be required prior to either ivf. this could also help eliminate requirements at some clinics for psychological evaluations, copies of the legal contracts, among other bureaucratic indignities.

trent's interpretation than is actually the law of the land in his home state of california. meaning that state one home in 70 isn't achieved sexually intimate partner status for any given recipient pair. unfortunately, fda held the trends assertions about how to define sexually intimate partner were merely an effort to skirt the issue. and in 2012, he was ultimately from donating unless and so he complied with fda requirements and obtained written permission from the agency. so we'll stop there. all right. let's give her a round of applause. ashley. first, perspiring right? i'm like ten months pregnant, basically. we also that you're pregnant. so i want open up this conversation one by stating i was very excited when i got the invitation interview you because one. i think i shared this with you backstage. i froze my eggs during the

pandemic and so is something that is so important to me and that i really care about. and i never about the opportunity or even the possibility of, you know, having a -- and not going through a bank or fertility. so this was a very, very interesting read. so thank you so much even writing this book. but the first question that i love to just explore in the book, you talk about a number of different women, men who've gone through the process. why dedicate space in the book to talk about yourself? you could have just written this book talking about everyone else's different stories, but you your own story throughout the book. and that is so interesting as the backdrop of this entire story. that's a good question. as a journalist, 20 years, i'm not really comfortable being part of the story. it's definitely unfamiliar.

me. i think the number one reason is i felt like i to be honest with the readers that to tell this without making it clear that i was passing judgments, making decisions and actively participating in the world felt dishonest and i also just felt from a writing perspective that my own story made sense as a narrative spine, as i was exploring different aspects the world i came across different elements thematically, whether it was legal issues, you know, encountering you know, prejudice among donors disclosed, you know, offensive things. me that neatly fit into different chapters as i just went through my own chronology. so it really worked out very well for the writing process. that's great. that's great. in throughout the book, you share with this really in the beginning of the book, share with us how you began this discovery of finding men who

wanted to donate their --. and one of the ways and i went to the site you talk about facebook and how facebook has been a catalyst for so things because it's surely of the first if not the first social media platform to spin the longest. it's the largest, but you you walk us through in the book how going to these facebook groups you find people in different parts of the country who say i'm willing to travel or i live in this region. and i just did a quick facebook search and i found facebook groups here in the dmv area, but that never occurred as possibility to me outside mediums like. how else have traditionally have women or folks who are trying to get pregnant found -- if not through a bank. well, there's a lot of ways i mean, i think that that you found a lot of times in the

seventies and eighties there a lot of lesbians who looked to their gay male friends to help them get pregnant. the dawn from my research, the world of freelance -- was in like the early mid 2000 on craigslist. right. and then also some of the yahoo! message boards or aol kind of message, bulletin boards and chat rooms, people either offer up their -- or say desperately seeking. and you would have these anonymous transactions and lot of the men, the -- donors were drawn to this. there just a recurring theme of men having formative early sexual encounters with. you know, an older woman, woman who wanted them to get them pregnant and then that suddenly was an issue that had to be scratched. and they sought out these online spaces where they could continue to pursue pursue that and and

people, but also kind of fulfill some inner craving. right. and when you're talking about people are donating their --, you talk about artificial insemination actual insemination and the difference between the. what are some of the things you were warned a woman? that's looking obviously even if she's going through a either a -- bank a nine traditional form, which is what the book is discussing worrying about the selection process. you did a lot of writing characteristics. you talked lot about, you know, questions you would ask on the first date or on the first face time. what are things that people should be aware of that folks just, you know, could be out here just really trying have sex and not being sincere about the donation process? well, you know, i'm still actively involved in the groups and today i probably posted

three or four times comments on somebody who is, you know, looking for a -- donor, i need them next week. number one, take your time. i mean, whether you're going through a bank or not. -- isn't -- isn't --. --. this is going to create a human being. the that you're getting comes from a real human being who has their moral compass, who has their own personality, that are going to be part of whatever human you raise. and so i know the urgency i have lived urgency. and the at times desperation of just wanting to be pregnant, wanting to be a mom. but you can't rush that, especially not in the online world of freelance -- donation, because there are creeps out there. there are problematic men, there are men with breeder breeding fetishes. let's just say it. and so so i think fact, the number one question is always,

is your motivation, why are donating --? why do you want to do this? and i think that they're the one that i'm most comfortable with that i don't always get is there are men who have a biological imperative to create more children than they can reasonably financially care for. and they see this as a way of helping women and being able to do that. and would prefer the men who have a limit, who just trying to produce dozens and dozens of. but they think, you know, is some way that i can get you an occasional photo update and have a kid out there and just, you know, not just humans living creature, you know, for the most part has some biological imperative to reproduce, to give life. i don't know why we're on earth, but for me, that's the only answer i can think of for me. and so i do. these men who want to pursue it. but you have to really be

careful. take your time, come up with your own list of questions. what matters to you. and if you say blue eyes and blond hair, i'm worried, i think. yeah, we want certain physiological traits in our kids, but who this human being going to be are? they going to be a good person. are they going to be happy? you know, are they are they going to be curious inherently? and i was drawn to the world of freelance -- because i can find that out by interrogating a pejorative -- donor, a way you can't learn from a -- bank. right. that's that's so important. when you talk about freelance --. in the book, you tell story about a lesbian couple and this particular story stuck out to me because they they found a donor. they got pregnant. they had the baby. and two years later, they broke up or they they separated. and it felt a little bit about like it was about deception in that one of the women ended up moving in with the man who

donated the -- and she was able to somehow in a legal way get the her her former her former woman partner's name off of the birth certificate. what are the dangers in processes like that particularly for same sex couples that that could happen that you know maybe they fall in love their donor and the person that they're married to or the person that they're with and that they birth this child with. if they're not the conceive or that that could be a reality. them that just felt it felt icky that that happened and i felt for the woman who was on the non winning side of that equation. yeah, this was a heartbreaking case of oklahoma. it's in the state court. i think it would be handled differently, federal courts. but either way, want to protect yourself. the short is if you are a lesbian couple, even a heterosexual couple, couple using donor -- that is not from a bank do a second parent

adoption. that's the only way you protect yourself. ultimately, the judge felt that in this case that, just having your name on the birth certificate wasn't. so i lost my train of thought. there a little bit, but there aren't a lot of protections, and that's why i kind read the proportion that i read talking about the sexually intimate partner. if more clinics would get with the program and, acknowledge this adult, these two adults have agreed that person is going to be a -- donor to the recipient and we're going to allow them to proceed as if they're sexually intimate partners, but not a father role. then you have, first of all, the safety and the security of the clinic is going to run their own dna testing, their own genetic testing, their own every possible -- analysis. so you have that protection. you're not just relying

documents that some some guy, you know, messaged you on facebook, but you also in writing this clinic viewed this person as a -- donor. they have a legal agreement that this this man is a -- donor and that would provide more protection. at this point in time, california is only state that has made laws that actually protect people who do home insemination. and i interviewed debra wald in book the author of those laws. so think there's a lot more work to be done in this area. yeah. and speaking of the laws, particularly around debra you talk about or she rather advises it per book that you have some legal contract that is not just an agreement like i know you, you know me, we're agreeing you're going to give me --. but there's actually a legal and you explained in the book all of the questions that that she asked you. you weren't prepared answer at

first because we don't think about that when we're naturally just thinking about conceiving. but talk to us a little bit about just the legal aspect and why important to have the legal you know the legal documents in place because people evolve people's feelings change and that piece of paper document is really for you your protection and also for your unborn child. you have a notion of contracts that are actually extremely controversial in the world of freelance --. a lot of the donors the men don't want to sign these contracts because in a lot of cases, the women have later use those contract to prove that their paternity in order to get child support later and attacked. anecdotally it seems more likely that men will end up paying child support than women will end up having to share custody, mostly because these men are producing so many kids they couldn't possibly go after custody for all of them. right. but at the at the end of the

day, the laws are different in every state they're weak in most states as i said, other than california. but you want to talk to a lawyer and you people will print off contracts off the internet and think that does the job but this is a case where pay lawyer it's worth money. i paid $1,000 i've heard 1300 1500 in surrounding states. get a lawyer to do your contra and know what your options are. the other thing is, as deborah walls, the author of the california law, said, if you have sex to get pregnant, congratulations. you're a father. that is it bottom line. if you have sex with a -- donor, there's no way around. he is that he is the father and -- donors and the facebook groups don't like to hear this. they don't like it. you know i have comments deleted get really angry comments from the men and the moderators and they don't want it known because

a lot of these guys are just trying to have sex so protect yourself legally physically and protect your family. wow. that's really good advice, particularly for folks who are considering going freelance -- donor route talk us a little bit as well. just about this movement for women or parents who are deciding that they want to be single. they're single parents by choice. i think that's the way that you coined it per the book. what is that process it really i guess investigator doing this as a journalist and writing this book, how have you uncovered how people are feeling about to go this route, particularly in the alone space? well, my mind is kind of going in two directions. on the one hand, i think, you know, the elephant in the room, health care in america is outrageously expensive. absolutely. there's not enough coverage for

fertility. there. just so few options. not everybody can afford. i mean, if i had it me four years to get to the point where i am now expecting a baby next four years. if i had paid every you -- donation i mean i would have spent an extra $30,000 than i already did going ivf and other, you know, medicaid cycles and things. so the cost is a huge thing. driving to this world. the other elements i want to talk about is while i am, i do consider myself, i'm going to be a solo mom by choice. this wasn't planned a this was not my decision. i didn't choose to be 42 and not have a partner. i thought i was going to get the fairy tale like everybody else. it didn't work out. but does mean i can't be a mom. does that mean i can't build family? i can't accept and maybe some

elements of that are selfish. but going this path pursue single motherhood in way where i could meet the donor my is has agreed to letters with my child and then meet at age 18. they my kid will have more access and more information his ancestry than a lot people from going through -- banks. and that was why i tried to do it. i knew i'm to be a selfish. i want to become a mom and i'm not going to give my kid a dad. but here's the way i can do the best i can to make this an informed decision and then try and put him first. i love that and i don't think it's selfish. i think is your choice. it's your it's my own hang up. i don't project that on anybody else. me right. i mean because you're one of the things that you said to me backstage when i said i made the decision to freeze my eggs is that i control away from the man or my partner or whomever it

was. and i put it back. i put myself back the driver's seat, and that's zach way i feel about birthright. you're your choosing or you've chosen to in the driver's seat about the fate of having a baby and it's about if i have a partner it's the right person and the thing that's so inspiring about this book and about the way that you decided to document and include all the other stories. and even in the book you talk about freezing your eggs, you talk about journey and the instance you know, you got i think it was five eggs, but they weren't able make it to the embryo and going back and just feeling like you wanted to be depressed. but your mom came and she gave you life and gave you the energy you needed to. go through the next round, but for many women, there's a cost and there's a cost issue right because it costs to freeze your eggs. and then also, if it's not

success. so how did you decide that i'm going to try again? because for people they would say, hey, i just wasted 15 or $20,000. i don't have it again to try again. talk to us a little bit about not only the strength to do it, but the cost factor, because there is that's a real thing. it's a real reality. the cost is is tremendous. i mean, i was fortunate that i have fertility coverage. there was a lot that wasn't covered. i mean i spent tens of thousands dollars to get to this point and. i'm grateful for the coverage that that i have. as far as to go keep going. i just i couldn't give myself the option to give up. and there is the risk of a spoiler. there is a part in the book where it got very dark for and i needed to get some mental health

care and treatment deal with the grief of infertility, of loss and the fear i finally let myself consider. this may not happen. i may never, ever have my dream come true and become a mom and have a child to love. and i think so many of us come to the world of -- donation through a bank or otherwise, because we've been through grief, whether it's grieving that you know, if you're, you know, your lesbian partner can't contribute half the dna. so you have to go and get a -- donor whether you thought you would be married and having a kid. so many different paths bring people to gamete donation and usually those paths are lined with grief and it's amazing the perseverance that emerges in the midst of the darkest moments of grief, i can't explain it. okay, that's that's fair.

but that's fair and that's helpful. so if there's someone who's listening to this, obviously an audience here and people are thinking about, should i take this path? this is something been thinking about what are just words of wisdom or words advice that you would give to someone who's contemplating, particularly the freelance -- route? well, i think that, you know, once again, take your time when choosing a donor matter where you get your -- from. take your time making the decision i would say find your teammates. i was so fortunate to find a community here in washington d.c. a fellow aspiring single mothers by choice i called them the i called us the wannabe mommies i'm now the last one of us to get pregnant and they all have kids but surround yourself

with people going through the same thing it's amazing how your best friend who has three kids isn't going to necessarily get it. that doesn't mean you love them less or they love you less, but you need people who are in the fire with you to help you get through it and so i think having people on your side who understand when you can say, i really can't face another baby shower when it's been three years and i still am not and i feel like a jerk and they are like, no, you're you're allowed to feel way. i think that is so important logistics leigh i would say going back to you, vetting your vetting your donors know whether it's the -- bank or not just make sure you're asking the questions. and it's really easy. get sucked into, well, i want a baby curly hair or you know you know they better be over six

feet tall. these aren't the things that matter. you're not going to love your kid more or less based on how they look. but i think you do want to have a kid who's going to be compatible, who you are and your family and, where you come from and looking at things, even on a -- bank looking at the materials that they have about this person does for a living and what their passions are. so the best that you can, who we are as people, is so much more important than appearance and that's what i really try to prioritize of my own, my own search. well, and i have to ask, because you're actively caring, how is this book really helped you throughout your pregnancy? how is i mean, obviously you're a month you're a month away. so congratulations early. congratulations. but how has this been therapy for you as been going through your own pregnancy journey? oh, it's absolutely.

been therapy it's it was so wonderful to have, you know, a focus, the distraction, you know i writing a book on on evenings and weekends is not easy, especially when know so much of it is journalism. you have to interview people and talk to people. but it really helped me kind of channel my energy and times when i probably would have just turned into a puddle on the floor feeling. sorry for myself. it was like, well, these are important emotions. i better write this down. i better get this paper and take advantage of it while i can. it's great and i really appreciate you for just journaling it and like you said, how i begin this conversation and infusing your own story with all the other stories that are really just anecdotal for the book and for the journey of of this process. i want now turn to the audience and see if there are any

questions. i'm sure folks have plenty of questions because is such an interesting topic, but i'd love to just if there's anyone here who has a question for valerie and about her process and about the book. i see a couple of hands. hi. thanks so much for sharing your story. for talk a little about how you came to to the place where you were ready to to take on being a single mom, you know, having a career all your passions and, then making real space for a baby on your. how did you say how did you figure it out and how did you build out a team to help you? what was that process like? that is a great question. i think. first, i want to preface this

with, you know. i'm having a baby of my own, but that doesn't mean i that i hate men. i love men. i think men are great. i'm going to have a little boy who's going grow up to be a man. but i think i had been through so much with so many men, said, yes, i want to have kid with you. yes, we have a future. and it didn't happen. and then i said, i'm you know, i'm 38 in the middle of the pandemic. and something i realized the way was, you see the media celebrity celebrities having babies at 42, 43, 44, 45. what they don't tell you is the huge amount of cost that goes into they don't tell you that a lot of times those aren't made with those women's eggs. they got donor eggs, which is fine. that's a valid, valid path. but it misleading and. you go to the gynecologist your whole life trying not to get pregnant and maybe your doctor will say do you want to have kids someday? that's the end of the

conversation. we are being failed by our medical community for, not talking to young women about fertility and about preparing ourselves to make choices independent of men because i'm going to go off topic a little bit, but i feel we are in hookup culture. men are not as bound to partner with women and be part of a family. i as a woman am hard. i want a family. and i just realized i can't sit around and wait for a man to make that happen because i was out of time and it just hit me. i think with the mortality of the pandemic all around, it's going to happen in this onyx. not ideal way. it's not going to happen at all. and what i live with and what can i live with and i couldn't live with not being a mom. so it was it was really a decision out of necessity necessity. so this is a question about the

hardest of writing the book. what section was the most difficult for you to power through? write about who. that's a good question. i think. the hardest part was. in the process of writing the book. i went through a loss. i had i had a miscarriage and i lost my baby and, um, that's when i ended up needing to get some mental health care. and actually it was a year later i thought i would be okay. then the first mother's day that i was supposed to be a mom, i lost it. and then having to go back and re explore that once i had finally gotten a grip was really scary because i didn't want to

go back to this dark, unstable and knew to for the sake of my readers, i needed to be authentic and honest and raw and it was very scary to open up the window into those feelings again. so that was definitely the hardest part, i would say. and that's this book feels authentic. it doesn't feel so pie in the sky like you. based on one of the questions about celebrity. and we see this culture where, i think janet jackson had a baby at 50 and we're just like, oh, i can do that. you're right, money is different. and i didn't even think the donor eggs we were talking about donor --, but of them have so much access to assistance that the everyday just doesn't. and writing this book or actually reading it for me made me realize it's a possibility

you are a living example and you walk us through so many examples in the book and the ups and downs right like the real life. so when you when you ask the question about what was the most difficult thing and you talk about the miscarriage that's something that a lot of women relate to. you have to try and try again until you're successful. but that's also the joy in this process. and i think that's the joy in reading and actually seeing you in real life with the baby, with the belly that there's there's a happy ending. there is a happy ending. and yeah, i'm just and i'm so grateful that i am where i am. and not everybody does their happy ending. that's that's the sad thing. but i think that i think that getting to this point, it's just poetic that my came out on

tuesday and then, you know, a month later i'm expecting to have a baby so it's a big year for me and it's really come together in this really unexpected, beautiful way. and i just have to give myself over to fate sometimes and and accept that things are are not going to always work out the way you want. but maybe they are the way they should be. wise, very wise words are there are other questions or comments even about, okay, i see two hands. thank you. i'm curious, this dual role that you had being a participant, also a journalist, what sorts of challenges you had navigate pitfalls or? did it enrich the experience? um, yeah. we'd love to get your thoughts on that. and another great question and

just to repeat, in case anybody didn't hear that, so how did i navigate the line between being a journalist and a participant? it was really difficult at first, but and i really, i think the toughest part for was wanting to do justice by the community of men who are online -- donors because there are so many who are problematic, there are so many who are creeps, but there are also good guys out there who are really making dreams come true the way mine dreams have been made to come true. and there was a lot of interesting among these. and so i really had to challenge myself when instinct is to say, ooh, you know, this is you know, this is appalling to me when, you know, when when somebody basically talks about they, you know, they don't even enjoy sex. it's conception sex that gives me the willies. i don't know about you, but but

i had to try and really step back. and because i was part of the story, you know, my my editor at times me let us know how you feel about that and that part was challenging but i think it also my journalistic background helped me really open up. you know, one thing that struck me was, the -- donors who talked about we need to realize a lot of these young men are -- donors, grew up i remember life before the internet. it came around when i was maybe nine. these men grew up. they never had life without internet, without free access to easy --. they never had they had, you know, video games that make women's bodies look obscenely unrealistic. and social media, which makes it harder for you to interact in real life if all you is interacting in this pseudo world and i think a lot of these men struggle with their masculinity this is the post-metoo era.

they don't know how to be men. and i think it's really easy as women who have been wronged by men in the past to turn your nose up at that. but i would challenge us to hear these men out and if they are struggling in their masculinity and to know what that means, you hear the word masculinity without the word toxic before it, and that's unhealthy for society, my opinion. and so to hear the how some of these older donors, more experienced donors would coach the younger donors and say, you can't treat women, that you can't behave like observer and insist every woman have sex with you. and they found space where men could be men together. sometimes that turned out not, but sometimes there was mentoring happening and so i think because of my journalism background to bring it back to your your question, i was able to push back being part of the story and trying hear these

sometimes uncomfortable perspective then i hope i did justice representing in the book. bit. yeah there was one in the back end went up front and here have come across any bias from the medical community during this process. mm. absolutely. i have an entire chapter which is called dr. patronizing. i, i had a doctor who was so insulting to me. i ended up switching i ended up switching fertility clinics, but, you know, he's snapped at me. i had my first egg retrieval and they hoping to get five eggs. they only got three. and the way i found out was woke up from a and i had a post-it note with number three on it and it was circled and it made me

think of when the guy broke up with carrie in sex and the city on a post-it note, i was like, this is how you communicate this to me and. when i finally got to talk to him, i said, why didn't you set my expectations? you were telling me, you know, you were expecting five or six eggs. and he's like, this is exactly what i expected. it's not my fault your eggs are old. and then turned and walked away and the same doctor every time i had a question, his answer was, i have 34 years of experience. it's like, congratulations. that's not the answer to my question. i think that i'm just so tired of being talked down to as a woman. i am fortunate. i've covered a lot of health care. i know how to advocate myself, i know how to work the system. but i'm so -- of having to just come unit kate with me like i'm an intelligent adult and like i am here for my life to have my dream of, being a mother come true. this is a this is as it gets. so anyway anyway, so obviously

it started as very personal journey for you, but at what point along there did you decide? was there a specific moment? you're like, there's a story here that needs to be told. that's than me. or like, what? what was the impetus for the book specifically, not just for your personal? it was very on as soon as i came across the world, freelance -- donation. i mean, i was going through these facebook pages. i kind of stalked them a little bit before i actually jumped in. but just seeing the conversations that were happening it stopped now, but initially, i would see like a very attractive woman poster picture and say, i'm looking a -- donor, i live in you tulsa and da da da da. and the donors would say, did was as if she had no agency in deciding who her -- donor was. and they would get into these little back and forth tiffs about, i was here first and it's like, this is not your decision, sir. and i just felt like this is

nuts. like there was still enough there that made me think this is a route i want to choose because i love to have a donor that my could have more access to. but i just it was such a wild west. i was like, i got to tell this. i got to see where this takes me. so thank you good question. and speaking of wild west, a few of the stories that you've shared in the book. in one of your own was just about going to retrieve -- and going into a random bathroom and putting your legs up. and i mean, how how did you do that? i mean, you talked about getting on the metro, going 30 minutes out to meet a man and you guys you know and you said was it didn't matter if it was a holiday if it was raining, if it was sunny. but he would consistently meet you go into the men's restroom, come out, give you the --, and you would go into the women's restroom and.

then you had this long ride back home into city. that is it. i mean have you like that's a process and. you documented it in the book. so i'm just curious like what did that feel like? i'm going to get this freelance -- i'm meeting up almost like in a back alley, although it was in a back alley. but i'm meeting you know, you're going into the men's room. i'm going into the women's room. i'm inside myself. and then i'm getting back on the train like. i'm going to get a coffee like, yeah, it wasn't easy. i tried to go through the clinic and and i went to that doctor patronizing thing and said, will you let me use this donor? we can do all the testing here. and he said, no, you can't. you have to spend like 60 $500 and wait six months to have his -- quarantined, which again goes back to the legal element of how do we define a sexually intimate partner. it's like if i've had this person's -- inside of me i think we're good, you know, but i in

my head just had to think of it as clinical. you know, this is know this is a transaction. this is clinical. you know, i could be getting an intrauterine insemination, but i'm not. this is my option. and it was it's just sheer determination. you know, i still look back on it. and it's amazing to me that i did it and i can see how it's shocking and scandalizing. but but it was it was only way i could see doing was still giving my kid the access i wanted to to know where they came from. yeah. in in the process. so you also talk about how genetic testing is and seti, of course testing. is that something that you found it as a different hurdle of the freelance option of -- or is

this something that, you know, you would do normally throughout if you're going through -- bank? if you go through a -- bank, all the testing is done for you, which is great, but one thing we haven't touched on today is the huge problems and the testing that doesn't get done in -- banks, which, you know, theoretically they psychological testing. but you know there's a very famous case from the zyrtec bank where for years they let a guy donate --. he produced, i believe, 33, 36 children that they know of and. it turned out he wasn't this musician. he was actually a convicted criminal. and had had some psychological he had he had a schizoaffective disorder. and a lot of the children produced this kid via a -- bank, which is supposed be safe, had

various mental health problems as a result. so i think my research on the -- banks, i just i didn't feel a whole lot more going that and that's just one instance. and the other thing is, the -- banks, they have lots they have lobbied actively against any regulation to limit how children and how many how families can be donated to and how many children produced. now, in the world of freelance --, you got high volume donors who are producing lot of kids, i was able to find a guy has helped ten families. he's done. there's a facebook group where, the different women who have been can join and they want to have their half meet my kid and other half siblings. that's to me. i know this person i feel like there some element of trust but i'm sorry did i answer your question? yeah. well, i mean, i think what your what's sharing is the difference going through a -- bank.

the question was around the genetic testing. the size but i think what you took us through just you're not necessarily any more is that any more secure going a bank than doing it this freelance way particularly with the last example that you just shared around this donor. who has who's helped families? that's a more controlled you have access to the other women, they have access to meeting you and interacting with your child. whereas a bank say this donor can only donate up to two or three families or whatever their regulations are. and i think that's the big takeaway for me, which is that this is a this is probably a better option than going through a bank because of the fda because of the that the medical system is set up and, because of the the judgment. i mean, even about doctor patronizing the way that medical officials just kind of treat

throughout this process you know i don't know it's better i think it was better for me i don't condone it and i don't condemn it i think every prospective parent needs to make own decision about what's right for them. for a lot of people, the -- banks do feel safer and in some ways are for me it was if i have a prospective -- and i say i need you to take a new sti test, and they say, no, that's the end of the conversation. a lot women out there will hem and haw and they think he's got those blue eyes. i'm going to i'm going to let this one slide and. i paid for my genetic testing and, did go through the clinic for that. ultimately. so and i had i had the first thing you to do is get your own done. if you're a carrier for something it makes that very real that can't risk it. i'm a carrier for spinal muscular atrophy. no one in my family has ever had that. but it can be a devastating

disease. a lot of kids are born and die within the first couple of years and so there was no question i was going to i was not going to work with a donor who wasn't willing to do the genetic testing. but you do have donors both in banks and the freelance world that find ways to hide things. so there's no guarantee. but how many married couples in the, you know, heteronormative normative, you know, tradition get genetic testing done all of them, you know, a lot of them know what they're getting into. so at a certain point, you've to find the balance that's right for you. got it. got it. and i know we have maybe like five more minutes. we have to wrap. so if there there's do we have okay. i'm getting the signal that we don't have time for. a last question, but valerie, want to just say i want to close this out and just say i really appreciate you for taking the time to not only share this, the

minister that you've shared throughout this book, but also your own personal journey and. reading this book has been truly inspiring and thank you for sharing it at large with everyone here and folks that are watching this. i'm a little bit later but thank so much for writing inconceivable and we wish you the best next month. thank you so much, all of you. thank yll