and reading the book evoked many of those times that we were in the driving or that he, as we were going into rio, he would explain about the schools, about the golf team. right. the state state award winners, its opening weekend for the movie the long game. but i want to thank you for giving voice to a community to many individuals outside of san felipe in that region and the legacy that mr. cardwell mentioned. i want to thank you all for being here for a poignant afternoon and you've told us what's coming next as a scholar and historian, and also that if we are to by your book, which we all should buy several copies, we can do that through where there was the university of oklahoma press or you press dot org and you can also do it through amazon. you're okay with using amazon make purchases. well thank we want to thank dr.

jesús jesse esparza tsai. we want to thank c-span tv. we want to thank all of you. and the author will be available for for some conversation for just few minutes because we do have the next event that's coming in in 15 minutes. let's give dr. katz, a round of applause. thank you. thank. kerry is a journalist and journalist and editorial board member with the san antonio express-news, where he is the first black metro desk journalist. he has covered local and national news events and social for more than three decades. he's the author of clowns and rats scare me and most recently just published more finish lines. two cross notes on race, redemption, hope. he lives here in san antonio.

please join me in welcoming cary clack. i know the best part of this is that kerry is going to share some stories with us so we'll get to that. i think pretty quickly on and talk a little bit about whatever wherever you want to take it. but i thought i would just open with that kind of broad question that starts with today and reaches back. the new collection, which represents a period of your career, if you could kind of tell us how you you got to the point of of deciding now's time for a new book. now's the time for a new collection, and then walk backwards a little bit with with what's kind of gotten you to this point in your different career trajectories. well, thank you, tom. thanks, everyone, for being here. i was really once i saw three days ago that i was the last session of the day. and i just wondered, many people were going to be here at 430. so thank for being here.

first of all, i thank you for turning university press for publishing both of those these collections. and you know, the first ones, clouds and rats, was published 15 years ago. and and that was 84 columns. and there's always more that i felt could have been in it. and then i left the paper for a lot for quite a while. and you know, after about four years, three years back, i just just a particular period of our history that i came back to the paper in time for cover it in time for george floyd in time for. the election. and you've vowed and ukraine and insurrection and it unlike the first collection this seemed like a more thematic and concentrated period of about of

our nation's history and. so i so i contacted go and see if y'all would be interested in your work. so thank you very much. i want to get right to a particular that i had because it was a really powerful moment for me. as much as i think i know your reading it in the paper and having having heard you speak several times a few weeks ago, kerry was speaking at the texas folklife folklife society. i think it's forgive me if i'm getting that wrong, which was having a statewide annual meeting here in texas and they invited kerry to speak and and and i knew it would be great whatever kerry was going to do. but kerry elected to reach for a piece in the book. one of the longer pieces in the book in which kerry really looks into his family. family line back, back almost 200 years and. said, share what you will about that piece, what that in

particular. what stuck with me, though, was the central theme, which kind of easy to hear, but rarely warrants pausing and thinking about. and that is that idea of looking at this text not just described, but the texas folklore society at the time. all the cowboy hats and then all the new young ideas and, leaders coming into the group and yet, like many organizations in a lot of change and you know, kerry, one of the real themes was that idea of your folklore, your folk history is not may not be my folklore. and my folk history and i want to ask you to just expand on that. and if i could append, put that in context of just your your daily, weekly writing and columns and to what degree that is a theme that's or thought that's in your mind when you're writing you're writing to an audience, you know you need to overtly or subtly, you know, remind them about that because it's a really powerful message for us to all think about and live with. yeah. and that it was about i think

that particular column is what is what is heritage, if not truth, history. and it it ran june of 2020. again after death of george floyd. and then we had this, this this day. everyone calls it a racial reckoning, but an intense increase, efforts to bring down, you know, confederate statues and confederate symbols and, you know, you get i get tired of hearing the supporters of those of those symbols talk about oh, it's it's it's part of our heritage. and it's you know, it's and so the point of the of the piece was that know that's it's part of my heritage too is you know i'm you know i'm the descendant of of of the slave and the slave

and the slave enslaved, you know, my great great great great grandfather, great my white great, great, great, great grandfather about my black great, great, great grandmother, 800 of us, and raped her, you know, because he older and so so whenever i hear them talk about heritage they're talking about you know my white heritage but they're not talking about my black heritage in that you know, talking about field cole, who was my great great uncle, who was also the last man killed by wild bill hickok in a gunfight. but feel cole fight for the confederacy. but he fought for the confederacy to keep his his half brother. my great great grandfather dan enslaved. so that was just my my point of of the piece and it was interesting reading it to the

texas folklife society conference because it was a unlike it was wasn't quite it wasn't diverse as this is this audience i think they may have been to the black members maybe three or four before latinos. it was predominantly white. and i knew that i was giving them a a story, a version of history that if they're familiar with, they don't want to be as familiar with this as they should. and the thing about me talking about this issue is, you but you can't dispute me because it's my family and, you know, i again, i am of the of the enslaved and i am of the slave holder. so you can't come at me with anything but as that relates to to daily write, you know, the columns, editorials that it

depends the editorials and columns are different in that the editorials are the voice of the paper. and so the topics that i write editorials about, then maybe necessarily wouldn't write columns about, but in writing columns, the whole point of being able to have the privilege to write and to, and to be a journalist is you want to share something with folks. you want them to share understand something that initially of your own history but maybe a part of their cities or their or their state. the nation's history that they're not familiar with or nothing else to to give them something else to think about. and they may not agree with you, but maybe you've got into their minds to at least make them have some doubt about some preconceptions they may have had about any particularly issue. extending that a little bit to the degree that you're working,

you you, you do other other work, other writing, speaking to you work with the newspaper and a news platform. no doubt you. and you just kind of alluded to this and i've heard you talk about this a little bit before. you you think about what you're going to write and and part of that has to be kind of what your your hope or intention for what the reader would would take from it, get from it. i'm curious to what degree the the the presumed reaction of the reader. it enters your mind as you're thinking of a story, envisioning a story, writing a story and not that you'd not, they'd be a source of concern, but i wonder if you speculate like, how is this going to land it? how do i want it to land? yeah, how could it land it? everything i write doesn't everything i write starts with the assumption that no one's going to read it. that's a seriously i, i will never assume that anyone is

going to read anything that i write or that they something that i will you will never, ever hear me as you as someone else. did you read this column that i wrote? now we're talking about a topic that i've written about. that's one thing, but you're not going to hear me say, you know, did read that you're not going to, you know, hear, say, let me say, did you buy the book. but if you buy the book, you're not going to hear me say what did you read it? what did you what was your favorite one? because i presume i assumed it anymore is going to read me because i just part that is my self esteem but part of it is yes. it's just just don't think like so i'm surprised when when people, when people read me now sometimes upon the topic they have assumptions that can be made about some of the reaction race guns.

issues like that and in one of the columns in the book i talk how in my previous life at the express-news i would sometimes get allow the voices to get into my mind. the that were saying you write too much race even though i really didn't and maybe i wrote more about than and you know of my my my my colleagues but it wasn't all that i wrote about. and so sometimes i think i would get kind of intimidated and, and, and back off from that. i think the same thing many years ago with in writing about gun shows. i, you know, i woke far less about guns the first time around than i do now. and i think it's because, you know, some of. yes. some of the reaction was, wow, you know you know, this is a maybe is not a public building, but you can just walk into the lobby and this is before we even had laws so you can walk the lobby should go and just some of the reaction that i would get

from emails and letters it did kind of, you know, kind of slow my road a little bit, but it's it's dangerous to make to to make assumptions about how someone going to react to anything you wrote you write and there are times when i've written something, i just kind of felt that and it's going to get slammed for just being bad and. for whatever reason, it resonates. and then there are some that i really thought were going to connect and they seem not to have. so it's the problem with getting too caught in the presumptions of how people who react. what you write is that it keeps you from writing what it is that you feel you need to write what do you hear from readers and to the degree you do, are there other kind of common themes or is or is it is it warm and hugs.

i don't hear as much as i as i as i used to. i don't. i think the times are different where like in the day you really encourage readers. we would have know not just our emails and voicemails, but we would have comment lines and and it was actually a department of paper that would print out the comments that people. had for us. we kind of make it harder. i think, for for people to respond, which isn't necessarily bad. i probably also get less emails because i don't respond to the ones that are that the ones that do disagree with me, but the ones that are just going out of the way to be to troll me, to be nasty. and one of the things i said, you know, when we did the first event for this book at trinity was that there are certain names that pop up on my emails, my

work emails in a column. so i automatically how much they hate what i wrote. and so i never read what they write because i and because i delete them else. but the thing is, they don't want to keep emailing me. so, so, so they continue to tweet me, but the nasty stuff, it's not like it used to it's not like it used to be. and again, part of because it's not i'm not and in a way we said it is not i'm as accessible to be touched. the stuff back in the day was was incredible. there were times when i have i would get a particular voicemail and i would you know, i would have some colleagues come into the office, you know, just and play it for not because i wanted

them to to feel bad for me at all i just wanted them to sometimes understand it. this is what i get in, what i want in. i do miss. and i wish i sometimes i do wish would get some of the the the really nasty stuff because i would i would take a particular or particular phone call and turn it into a column. i was always a satirical piece in which i was able to vent. i was able to get my stuff out because i had to respond to this, but at the same time kind of have of have fun with it. and one of things i especially up doing is when back in the day when we would be they would call and and you would know what the number was and you would call them back and they would always be three reactions. one is they never picked up the phone. the second is they they they pick it up. and now i was then the third

thing is they'd be shocked that you call back and inevitably there'd be a conversation and when the conversation ended, they may not have agreed with what i wrote, but because they were surprised that i called them back, they were these very nice and very kind to me. and because easy to take shots of someone who you who you don't know, someone you just see the name of the or their face in the newspaper. but when you actually have to have a you forced to have a even a 4 to 5 minute relationship to a conversation with them, then it's harder to to demonize and and scapegoat than individual that sparks a thought in the moment, which is, you know, i don't want to put you on the spot, but if kerry is anything he's really good on his speech. so i'm not but forgive me if just throws you a little bit i am curious extending that, is there a particular moment or memory you have or even broader thought about about where your

work is? you're writing has resonated in a way that you felt you. you changed a mind or touched a heart, even if you even if they didn't say that to you, you could you could see it or sense that had i had had impact in that way just in calling someone back or having a conversation like that, it it would have been something about race because for whatever reason that tends to have been the, the, the more the issue that they would most spark someone's eye and someone's hatred and. i think i can't think of a particular topic but i do remember that in just talking to the and usually they were with me and they were white men, there would be some, some back, you know, of course, the thing that they would always come at me is, you know, you are racist, you are black races and you know, they it would be a lot of

projection, but again, the fact that i actually took the time to to to talk to them and it didn't call names and then treated them with respect, i think it just made them pause little bit. and i mean, it doesn't mean it. i would never know if it changed them, but if anything, maybe they'd be a little bit slower. next time. they, you know, pick up the phone and just think they could say anything they want and use every. ethnic slurs they could think of. well, last question about kind of the day to day at the paper. but i'm curious and i bet others are as well about. just what are the white light heavy? where are the where are ideas come from? and do they ruminate a long time or do you occasionally have that idea you just woke up that morning or like, i'm going write about that today, if i'm lucky, the the morning of the day, the column is, do i have an idea, you know, but it was it was a

lot different when i when i was a columnist. and it becomes a week, you kind of got only this it's just routine and i think so back to my colleague rick casey you know you finish former colleague with case you finish one column and you start thinking about the next one. you finish that. when you start thinking the other one. so you got into a routine with three a week, you felt i had this reflexive ability that i could you could range all over the place, be it in topic, be it in voice. beardstown whereas with only one column a week is it's like i really have to to to pick my spot and because i also do editorials in another colleague, nancy johnson you know all of you know, we all try to do a column week and two editorials a week. and so for me, i really don't start thinking seriously about the column until wednesday and my deadline is is noon thursday,

but there's a process and it from just doing it a long time is there are days when i have no idea what i'm to write about and so i'll go for a walk and what happens is that? wherever the mood is on a particular morning, i may have this music in my head. it's kind of it could be kind of jazzy and upbeat and kind of hip hop. and that tells that even if i don't have a topic, i want the column to be something that's that's kind of it could be funny. it could be satirical, it could have a lot of attitude. other mornings i, i could have this music in head. it's more like a slow song, like a ballad. and that's, i know that whatever the topic is going to be, i want it to be serious.

a reflection. so so once i have the the musical score in my mind, then i start thinking about the topics and. then i start thinking about what's going on in the news, what's going on in my life, what am i seen in my neighborhood. so i go from go from the musical score to the topic then once i have a topic, of course, then i can get to the to the words and to the lyrics. but a lot of times it's, it's, it's the music will dictate where going to write about. i could have a i could. dance there could be something that could be a topic that i know i have to write about i should write about, but maybe and this especially goes back again to when i was doing three a week, i've had that, you know, i've only had two or three or four columns in a row with that

same tone, with that same voice. i need i need to change up. and that's one thing i have to say about the paper then and now, is that they always me the the flexible writing in the latitude to do pretty much i wanted. and when it came to topics and when it came to to a voice to to write and satire and writing and writing, they pretty much let me do what i want and let me experiment. you know, sometimes i would, you know, it was like, you know, writing a column sometimes it's like, you know, being on that high wire and you fall off. sometimes. they always allowed me to get up and to continue experiment and and and pretty much do what i wanted. so i've been it's like they've like a good hitter you don't want to mess with their swing. so they think they they never

mess with my, my swing never mess with my with my voice. you up music. so i'm not going to turn it into a question but but i am i am wondering if you ever are working on a column in your mind while shopping at the almost part h-e-b for those of you who follow him on on facebook or maybe other media i've often felt there should be a spotify cary clack almost part h-e-b playlist. i mean, i know i want that playlist. someone actually has created a youtube. i haven't seen it all. someone has created youtube playlist of the different songs mentioned that i hear enoki. i love it. i want to jump. of course most folks know carrie, you grew up here in san antonio and so you've just just just as a a a native son. but but especially light of what you do, you've seen and observed and obviously thought about and shared a lot.

and i'm curious that big or the larger the art kind of san antonio sure it's grown a lot in size numbers and metrics but i'm curious just what would share about the evolution of san antonio and the the solution once they're in and the challenges they're in, then old never resolved emerging. just just your bigger take on the san antonio over the course your life. i think the most or the most common thing is people have said about san antonio forever is is you know to say with a small town feel which can be i mean, it's usually said in a in a positive sense, but it can also be pejorative. but i know growing up on the east side of san antonio, growing up black, it was a different it was a weird dynamic in that you're growing up in a

city in which, you know, you're not. you have a notion that the majority of the population, which not even second year, third. and so there was just this feeling of if you're on the east side. being a step child and, i think in many ways, san antonio has has evolved into becoming a a city that's it's beyond what it is the city to do beyond what you know as opposed to what a small town can do, where when it comes comes to. the jobs and the wages that we pay people, we have so far to go and we still there's still some major issues of inequity, least it's we talk about now, we talk

about it a lot. and we in we and we try to do something about it as someone who has moved back to the east side, i still feel sometimes there's a sense of of that being being stepped out. you know, we you know, we get, you know, we get the alamodome and we get, you know, at&t center. we always these promises of what's going to come and i supported both of those but in the end what you know we don't we never have gotten what they were supposed produce when it came to economic development on that side of town. i do believe that there's there's a mindset that's that's more aware of it and is towards solutions. but, you know, change is always painfully slow and you realize i mean, i live in my neighborhood. there's a lot of of gentrification. and that's i know that's a bad word and i do mixed feelings

about it but i, i, you know, i live in denver heights. so i do see some changes that are happening in that we, you know, we have a lot more white folks in the neighborhood. i mean, i see something i saw growing up in my neighborhood was was people walking dogs, much less know white people walking their dogs. and i see that a lot and so on one hand, you you there's this this this concern about folks who have lived in neighborhood for generations being moved out. but frankly, a lot of the folks that neighborhood, the families have been gone for a long time. and i do that. you have places like tony and the cold called the street ice house and sweet yams, which draw people in outside of of the east

side. so on one hand, that's that's that's that's a good thing. you know, my mom lives in a house that she you know, she afford to buy if she was going to buy it now but she's but she but she still where she's been in that house for years so you do i do see changes coming in the neighborhood i do see. people wanting to live on the east when i was growing if i saw white people move into our neighborhood they never they would never stay. they would never stay long. but i always knew that if they were move into our neighborhood if they were poor and, you know, they had and we did it because they wouldn't be there, it's it's kind of flipped now. and so to me, that's that's some help. i know it's a rambling answer i tend to give, but you know,

would you would you read one? i shorter pieces from the book you think appropriate. yeah and he would want. what's the shortest one. yeah. i think this is i think the shortest the shortest one is, is first one and and this was some of the most of these because women when i came back to the paper in 2019, there's some longer pieces in there that were written elsewhere while i was away from the paper. and this particular column was written when i was working rakeem castro. and it's when when maya angelou died. and so the paper asked me to write a piece. maya angelou done. so i'll read. this one because it is the

shortest one. when marguerite johnson was seven years old and raped by her mother's boyfriend, she gave to his identity after her assailant was found convicted. the vengeance of her uncles. she believed her words possessed the power to kill. and for the next five years, she didn't speak to anyone but her brother. that belief in power of language, her language. she never abandoned her as an adult. maya discovered that her words could be a revelation to others. she learned it by using her voice to give to what was beautiful and, ugly. she could teach uplift, reconcile, and inspire people to overcome injustice for all of also enormous. it was that magnificent gift of voice that will endure, and it was most fondly remembered when news was received that she died wednesday morning at age 86.

the rhythms and incantatory spell of her writing, especially memoirs and poetry, were distinct of the first of six memoir. as i know the caged bird sings is her greatest book and an american classic. this was a bridge to humanity, a passport to the world. when angelou would visit san antonio, she would stay with dr. joe. and every day it appears nato was one of her daughters. i first met angelou about years ago at a dinner at the peerless house that featured the added attraction of the meal. having been prepared by angelou, the kitchen being one of many venues for artistry at askew, i picked san antonio poet naomi simone, and when we arrived it was magical seeing these two words sorcerers for the first time. there were never a long time family friend made sure i was

seated next to angelou, who turned to me and said that deep in we go voice and you are a poet. while this makes for a nice self agonizing story that paints a picture of me being anointed by maya angelou, the more i thought about it, the more i realized may have been more of a question than a declaration. still, they are. they are the five most precious words anyone has said to me. in 2010, shortly before angelo was to return to san antonio for a column for speech, i interviewed her for the phone. for a column i her about those five years as a child when she didn't speak, she said her grandmother taught her sister, mononoke that other people call you an idiot, a --, because you don't talk. mama. no. when you and the lord get ready, you're going to be a teacher. you're going to teach over world

when asked her if she fulfilled her grandmother's prophecy, she that fulfilling it and working at it. i hope i have fulfilled everything because if so, you'll be the last voice i'll be talking to. i'm glad i wasn't the last voice she talked to, but along with millions unfortunate, she shared that voice with us for so long this phenomenal woman knew why the caged bird sang in, how she could see. perfect. thank you. i think we have a few minutes for questions will open up if would. this is being recorded so if you would please wait for someone to get a microphone to you and we'll try to get all questions in. but i've lived in san antonio for 40 years and i've seen the city explode. i've seen the express-news shrink. my two questions would be, do you believe the express-news be around within ten years? and why the paper become so

irrelevant to so many people. i think it i think it will be around in ten years, maybe even smaller. i think newspapers have become newspapers were becoming less relevant to people at the time i left the first time in 2000 twice and 11 it's in back then i would tell folks at newspapers isn't wasn't like the the the automobile industry a a great industry that had its decline and was going to have a massive resurrection. there would never be a resurrection for newspapers. express news does very well, does better than many other newspapers. but you don't as much advertising as we used to.

as far as whether that is relevant or relevant to people, i think newspapers are always relevant folks and what they decide they can find in them. and if they don't and you know, there's other news sources of, course, but a lot of those news sources do originate from from from newspapers and still. but yeah, i'm the paper. the paper is smaller. we have 5:00 deadline. so you're not going to get the scores spurs going. you're not going get friday friday night high school football saturday. it's sad i wish it wasn't like that but that's it is i do i think paper will fairly conflict paper will be around ten years from now and i'm speaking for myself will it be seven days a week maybe? not it might be six. it might five, but that's why i,

i think all of us who work at newspapers, appreciate people who actually still the the the printed edition because it means you been going back with us for a long time and you got to you stay with us for a while. but i also understand that sometimes the costs of subscriptions are prohibitive prohibitive. you mentioned in parcel. you mentioned in passing humor. and my question i've been you for a long time. it's an impression, not a content analysis, that the cary clack of back in the day reached for humor as the driving vehicle of a column than the one of today. do you? that's right. and is it because we live in more serious times?

maybe that's a great observation. henry krauss is actually he's been a column for well, i love him we spend at the paper since about the 10th of may late 1990s that's actually something henry and i given have never we haven't talked about this but it's something that i've i've said to some of my colleagues as i say to other people that i don't write as much humor as i used to and i miss it, you know, part of the problem is that, again, when you have three columns a week. there's more room to do it, there's more. you just more this, you know, you can do two serious was you can just have that mix whereas you have one shot a week and so often just the stuff that we were dealing with, it has to be said, i prefer humor, i prefer a satire. i believe that you can first of all, i think it's important can you can make your you can you

can make points with humor and set. but i also think it's important just make people laugh without a point. if if if you can in any time i can go. for the humor i, i will do it. i feel more comfortable way i get i get tired of. trying to find the other voice. i get tired that. that reflective that that hopeful voice not that it's not important and it's not part my arsenal but i just. i just i feel better when i do humor and when i writing i had no intent of of a violent or, you know, humorous, but it just kind of came and in over career i always came after i you know

was was getting burnt out on writing some of the you know the stuff and and the unpleasant stuff and i would find myself trying to humor for nothing, for my own for my own sanity but i tell folks the time and you know, in i don't even i'd have to go back and look at when i was the first humorous piece wrote when i came back but i would tell folks i would tell my editor, josh ask that that. i really feel like i'm back when i'm able to go back to humor and in and use it more because i do miss it and it actually means a lot that you know that you've noticed that because it's just been a concern of mine that i

want to really add some of fun just fun and know what we do is it is important. it's not always fun. thanks for. the question thanks for the observation. a long time ago, maybe 20, maybe more than that years ago, i had been reading a lot of your humorous pieces and, and was a single woman and trying to date the first time and the water source started this we could only water once a week. my day to water was friday so i wrote. a letter one time just to come comment, hoping you would write something about source being ornery. and i said something about, oh no, i'm sorry, can't go out. nice, wonderful dream of a lawyer. no, because i have to stay home,

not wash my hair. i have to be home to water my yard. and you wrote back and told me i needed to write my own column and i i have always held on to that. i've been my favorite columnist and i just want you to know that. and i also appreciate what you were saying being slammed that extreme minus strength when are saying ugly things to you all the time and and not not liking or approving of what you have to say. and i just finished my first novel. it's about to be launched and congratulations thank you. thank you. and i had a stall for about year because some friends of mine, i thought would be very supportive and wanted to would want to help me with the medical talk in it did not approve of what i was trying to do and it was so hard. and i really admire you and your

strength. i just want you to know that. thank you. i appreciate that i think we have time. one more quick question. first of all, thank you. the joy that you bring us through your columns. i can't say enough about how i read every one. i say thank you and thank you for everything you do. the san antonio community. and i understand you're to be speaking tomorrow at. a conference on book banning. and i was wondering if you talk to us about the problem of book banning, i know is kind of a national problem, but it's also a texas problem and a south texas problem. and i was wondering where in the world you think we're going as a society with that? i don't know mean the the question that you just asked and made think of the way you asked it. where are we going?

it made me think of more getting more informed, going to music. marvin gaye is a song in a city blues. makes me want to holloways said, lord knows where we head and and. i don't know where we're going with this as as as attempts to to ban books, to search that sense of books escalate. maybe i do know where we're going this as those attempts escalate resistance to those attempts also. so that's where we're with this. and ultimately i, i do believe there's more of us in them. and by that i mean us who aren't trying to ban books. we want to keep history from being taught, who aren't trying to give life to other voices

have been long ignored. i think there's more of us and i sometimes we get so overwhelmed by the audacity of of these attempts by, you know, a state legislator submitting four or 500 books that can't be in schools, none of which he's read knows nothing about we. just get so many have the ideas to do that that we kind of get taken aback. but it comes a time that we stop being aback and we stiffen our back and and fight back. so i think ultimately and i have to believe this, we're going to we're going to be all right. we just have to be proactive and not give no longer no longer allow the space to, define what it is that what it is to be an american, what it is to be educated, what is to be, to be,

to know, to know history. our history is we just have to allow ourselves the the comfort of knowing there is more of us than them. and as much as i sometimes get get, you know, tired of having word associated with me is great word. we have to have hope, because if we don't, then they win. so that's where we're going. we're going to fight back. i'm going to win. well, we're at time. i'm you like me. the more you hear kerry from cary clack, the more you want to hear you can do in part through buying the book. and kerry will be in just a few minutes over at the signing tent, and you can get the book at the nowhere bookshop tent. and thank you, so much for coming. thank you to c-span you to the book festival. have a great