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[inaudible conversations] >> good morning the u.s. senate committee were having a hearing on the national transportation safety board investigation and report i welcome the chair safety board director. watchdog ensuring safety is a top priority for the transportation u.s. department of transportation. through its impartial investigation into transportation accidents the board makes recommendation that have transformed transportation

safety. ntsb recommendations prompt action to require railroads to use positive control passengers to use seatbelts and commercial airlines to have well rested cruise. however the needs to continue to improve safety are ongoing but for instance run a weight near misses and close calls and aviation sector are far too frequent. we simply must do better. east of palestine derailment i've been less than a lacking of the requirements we are looking out for these longer trains and improvements. and that is refreshed rating in the drama in pennsylvania or three trains collided but receiving a crisis in the roadways in 2020 when the latest data we have fatalities of the highest since 2005 in my home state fatalities have increased 40% since the pandemic and 70%

in the last decade. so, while all of that is enough to think about, we are urgently in need of ntsb was offering a full strength and operators that we use the expertise to help us for improved safety rate that is why at this committee is passout the aviation bill with the reauthorization of the ntsb. going to thank you for your hard work and illuminating backlog that we have seen at the ntsb. but clearly you need more investigators on the job to help the faa senate bill advanced by this committee also requires the faa finalized their 25 hour constant recording rule also aviation safety inspectors from the faa. these are important reforms will be critical to ntsb house built

and sent to the president's desk. but obviously the safety concerns of the flying public is probably the main focus of this morning's hearing. serious questions remain unanswered about alaska flight 1282. we need to be satisfied and manufacturers have strong quality controls and the faa oversight is robust. faa and manufacturers in my opinion should listen to machinist and professional engineers who are asking for a stronger safety culture to improve the certification and production quality. we need to do everything we can to make sure they're not intimidated on the job to keep the line moving. members have been briefed about the accident in this committee will continue to do its oversight role. on february 6, 2024 the ntsb releases preliminary report

regarding the flight 1282 i appreciate this prompt investigation of the accident. and it's predominate findings. the committee continues to be concerned about the deficiencies in safety culture. i think probably also articulated or illuminated by the individual report that's required by our bill and delivered just a few weeks ago. the report implies the boeing facilities may have significant your report to be clear, implies a boeing facilities may have significant deficiencies and recordkeeping investigation continues to determine what manufacturing documentation were used to authorized the opening and closing of the left mid exit door plug during rivet rework. in particular we want to know of records that may show why or how

it was improperly stalled and what caused the accident at 1282 which raises questions that will ask in the q and eight. whether the documents even exist. these are important issues that we need to the bottom of it. there are a lot of people in the northwest. not just those who work at boeing but those involved in the aviation culture around our state. we want to get this right. we look forward to asking questions about this. we also, in my opinion, need to continue the final report on east of palestine. it helped formed brown in advance of the railway safety act. needs to include speeding up phaseout of legacy tank cars that carried flammable liquids require railroads to provide states with information about hazardous materials. and we need to pass the senate bill that highlights many of these things.

make sure the ntsb is fully operational and capable of doing this investigative job. thank you and now will turn to the ranking member. >> thank you madam chair. we are here to have a comprehensive discussion about the work of the national transportation safety board or ntsb. i want to thank chairwoman jennifer for being here today. and for the strong leadership at the ntsb. i certainly recognize that i'm sure my colleagues here would agree the magnitude of the task of investigating complex and tragic incidents early and impartial. ntsb arduous task is only made more difficult by the lack of a full board a situation help the senate soon rectifies. naturally, we all want answers from an investigation as soon as possible. for proper analysis takes time. i am grateful for your work madam chair, and for the work of

all the members and staff at the ntsb. ntsb serves important function of identifying causes of transportation. making recommendations to prevent similar future ones. the transportation operators learn from ntsb's investigations and recommendations. the ntsb does not have a regulatory authority over transportation safety. where the ntsb recommendations are considered by congress, or voluntarily depends on the credibility of the board to conduct thorough investigations without prejudice to a conclusion. maintaining the credibility is essential. i look forward to hearing from chairwoman about the investigation before the ntsb. americans are rightly concerned about the deep pressurization effects on alaska airlines flight 1282.

concerned about runway incursions and the derailment and east of palestine, ohio last year. i recognize the chairwoman may not and should not guess what the board's recommendations will be. or discuss nonpublic information from these investigations. however hope to hear about the status of this investigation and preliminary information that's appropriate to share this time. relatedly, i plan to ask the chair about a recurring problem with congressional oversight of transportation incidents that are concurrently under investigation at the ntsb. in some cases, companies party to ntsb investigations have confidentiality agreement regulations as restricting what those companies can provide to members of congress and when. that is of course incorrect.

administrative congress' constitutional power of inquiry. i look forward to hearing the chairs opinion on the matter in the former congressional staffer herself. this committee also needs to needs herebyntsb authorizing st. as well as the reauthorization proposal the ntsb submitted to congress. members of this committee must have the opportunity comprehensively examine ntsb as an agency. and to contemplate any changes to the ntsb authorizing statute. let me be clear. ntsb is a critical agency that does vital work. i support that work. and i'm having to engage in a thorough discussion about its authorities, in addition to defending and needs. without that discussion, i think the senate would be failing to meet its responsibilities at a time when the importance of the ntsb should not be clearer.

fortunately, today's hearing is an opportunity to begin such a discussion. >> thank you santa cruz. and now it will hear from the chair, thank you for being here. we look forward to remarks. >> thank you and good morning. thank you for the opportunity to appear today, to discuss ntsb, our needs, our challenges in a critical safety measure. throughout a typical year ntsb works out about 2200 domestic and foreign to 50 foreign cases. we expect the number of cases annually to remain high and continue to increase in complexity. some investigation understandably get more public attention than others. but all our investigations are critical to improving safety. i understand members of the committee have a particular interest in the highest profile investigation. the boeing 737 -- night norfolk

southern train derailment in east policy and. these investigations are critically important and i am happy to answer as many questions as i can. but i doing to emphasize these investigations are ongoing. there's still a lot of work to do to understand what led to these events. unlike the alaska 1282 investigation to dock observant observedthe public on east pale. they contain over 6400 pages of factual information which i can discuss at length. with that said, these are just two of the 1200 active open investigations in 47 states and puerto rico. in addition to the 140 open foreign investigations in over 50 countries. we owe it to the families of those involved to the communities where events occurred traveling public what

happened in all these tragedies to keep them from reoccurring. recent natural gas field home explosion and fires in mississippi that in our home. for the multivehicle crash in ohio and number 14 of last year which included eight motor coach carrying high school band members and killed six people. for the hot air balloon accident on generate 14th that killed four. however ntsb has completed many complex investigation and issued safety recommendations to prevent this kind is tragedies. there are currently over 1000 open safety recommendations that we have made a crop every mode of transportation. in 2022 and 2023 we issued 159 new recommendations enclosed 261. of those closed, 80% were closed

acceptable. meaning the recipients took action to implement the safety recommendation. this success rate demonstrates the value of our recommendation and we appreciate the efforts of recipients to address them. the ntsb is also pleased that this committee has included provisions of faa reauthorization for that work will save lives and we thank you for. we also appreciate the committees to authorize as part of the faa bill are authorization expired at the end we are incredibly grateful for the one of $48 million and that 24 appropriation we are a small agency relative to our partners as the numbers show our impact is profound and

disproportionate. i like to say we are a small agency was a big voice and everyone at the ntsb plays a critical role in achieving our mission to make transportation safer. continues as the world a preeminent safety agency, the gold standard and develop recommendations that event safety change without delay we need more resources that funding in the out years as proposed in the senate bill would frankly devastate our agency. in fact it is unprecedented reverse the progress made on enhancing and preparing our workforce for emerging challenges and improving the timeliness of our investigation. as you work through conflict i strongly urge continued support for the ability to carry out a critical safety mission now and in the future. before close unmentioned loss earlier. loss is not new to the ntsb we know all too well how fragile

and precious life is when it hits home and hits us hard reminds us once again what is truly important, our relationships with each other. ntsb is in the morning this week. from the sudden death of our director of safety captain morgan turow. he began his career in 2003 as a canonical operations investigator. elected 2007 to serve as vice vicepresident of marine investigations for princess cruises and return to the ntsb in 2010. 2014 he became chief investigations in our office of marine safety. three years later he was promoted to deputy director and then director in 2021. morgan was a marine safety expert here is a proud graduate of the u.s. merchant marine academy serves as a licensed deck officer in closing master

on a variety of commercial vessels he was an incredible advocate for improving safety on our waterways. his last words to me on februarm surrounded by my family. morgan was very close to his family. we are fortunate to have been part of his. he was an incredible person. he was so kind and thoughtful. a mentor, a teacher and a friend to so many of us at the ntsb. the coast guard and he will be missed. as a mom, i cannot imagine a greater loss than the loss of your child. i spoke to morgan's mom yesterday and she said there will be a piece of her missing forever.

we want to extend our deepest condolences to morgan's mom catherine. morgan's father, brian and his older brother, jon. i also want to extend my deepest condolences to all of my colleagues at the ntsb for such a tragic loss, thank you. >> thank you chair and thank you for remembering him this way at the hearing. i think you represent an organization that is all about the culture of those inspectors. you find it doing incredibly important work and we only know the results of. we do not get to see the basis. they do not come before us. we are so sorry for ntsb loss and this individual. i'm going to let my colleague senator fischer asked the first question that i'll come back to me in a minute. thank you chair for being here

today. this individual. i'm going to let my colleague senator fischer asked the first question that i'll come back to me in a minute. thank you chair for being here today. i appreciate it. last year they burn university of lincoln campus first of its kind crash test of an electric pickup truck to study whether current highway guard rails, adequately protect against the growing number of those heavier tvs that are on our road. at 68 miles per hour the 7000-pound electric truck tour through the barrier without offering any protection to the traveling public or reduction in speed. i have recently heard from first responders that are also concerned about responding to electric vehicle fires. 40% of fire fighters have never had ev fire safety training. i have heard of instances of more water needed to extinguish vehicle batteries the increase

in the toxic gases from the lithium batteries. what has ntsb found in its investigations on the eat the crashes that are unique compared to internal combustion engines? have you begun to condense the data so it can educate us on what's happening? >> yes, just a few years ago issued a report on the risk of lithium ion battery fires to first responders under second into secondresponders we defined responders in the report as tow truck operators. we had done a number of investigations there was significant risk to the first responders in terms of standard energy in the vehicle the battery and the components

itself. the amount of work it took to extinguish the fire's on the potential for shock to emergency responders themselves. in fact we did in investigation and mountain view, california where the first responders had to reach out to the auto manufacturers to ask them to come to the scene of the crash they were lucky they were 3 miles away. if you think about volunteer firefighters who may be in a rural area that is not something readily at their ability to get people on scene. in this particular in result reignition several times of the electric vehicle as we have with others not just on the scene but also on the tow truck in five days later the tow yard itself. they are a significant risk in terms of battery fire they are

significant risk for emergency responders. while we have not done in investigation involving electric vehicles and the weight i have raised a red flag numerous times to say it is an impact on safety pretty mention the excellent work done by the university of nebraska. our guard rails the crash attenuators are read up to 5000 pounds. many of these vehicles but the 10,000 pounds. one vehicle the lithium-ion battery alone weighs the same weight as a honda civic, 3000 pounds. that has an impact on safety. not just on infrastructure, making sure people in the vehicles are safe after there is a crash. that vehicle to vehicle, to those outside the vehicle and as i sit vehicle to infrastructure.

cooks it would to thank you for your comment. he talked about the weights of these vehicles. currently have governmental regulations that stipulate the use of the mail crash test dummies in vehicle testing. it does not mandate any inclusion of female crash test dummies. this is despite the data that's out there. and the 73% higher likelihood of serious injury among women who were in these vehicles crashes compared to men. given the statistics that are out there on a regular vehicles. not even on ev's with exponential increase in the weight there. don't you think we need to look at female crash test dummies as

well so we can start to gather data there? do you have any information on the different sized vehicles women may choose to drive compared to men? >> women typically pick a larger size vehicles for utility vehicles. minivans, the larger vehicles whether it's an electric vehicle or gas fuel vehicle we are seeing increasing sizes across the industry. crash test dummies right now for adults are based back to the 70s based on an adult mail that is the height of five -- nine invoice 175 pounds. that is not applicable to most females. the seatbelt comes across my neck. it is not until i had my most

recent one i put the seed it comes down to that has our stature of different types of people. i'm really thankful for your work in this area very pleased with the report that came out as a result of that work. i do taupe takes up on that takes the recommendation seriously to really look at the different types of people who are operating in our vehicles to ensure safety. is not just the safety of the individuals but making sure those vehicles are structured so they are protecting the crashworthiness of the vehicle and protecting those inside it. >> thank you very much and i hope you gather the statistics on the threat that our first responders faced with these vehicles you make that available. >> yes. i will make sure your staff gets

a report and i am happy at any time to commit and growth of the issues. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. >> senator cruz said. >> thank you chair. this committee is a mess get transportation incidents remained important derailments in east palestine, ohio to depressurization on alaskan air flight 1282. a common refrain from parties to ntsb investigations is that they lead advance of approval prior to providing documented information to members of congress. madam chair, is that true? >> that is not true. >> as you know this six city committee has oversight authority. does the ntsb confidentiality agreement with parties to ntsb investigations restrict access by members of congress to document information in any way? >> absently not a party should not use the ntsb as a shield. >> thank you for clarifying i

agree what's important on the records i appreciate it. >> absolutely. you have a right to that information should get that information for. >> thank you per turning specifically to alaskans airline flight 1282. i'm deeply concerned a potential safety issues with the boeing 737 max nine. it's essential ntsb investigation get to the bottom of this and identify any safety issues and potential solutions. too that end at the equal import and the parties to the investigation cooperate fully with the ntsb, with congress and others investigate incidents. madam chair, how cooperative have the parts of the investigation been with the ntsb and have you gotten timely access to the documents, the information the witnesses you need? >> are number of parties to the investigation some have been very cooperative for example the federal aviation administration boeing has not provided us with

the documents and information we have requested numerous times over the past few months. specifically open and close will removing of the door the team that does that work at the facility. >> wow. are you telling us even two months later you do not know who actually open the door plug? >> that is correct senator we do not know and it's not for lack of trying. it is not unusual we do not get information immediately in an investigation. i can point to numerous investigation while this occurs it takes months and months to get information. but for this month is two months later we know for a fact there is a team that deals with doors. there's an entire team of 25 people and a manager. the manager has been out on medical leave. we have not been able to interview that individual we asked for the names of the other

25 people have not received the names. we asked for the records with what occurred we ask for what shift it occurred that we think we know what days the work occurred on but that's only because of our investigators work looking at pictures and e-mail to try to get to the bottom of that information. we don't have the record, we don't have the name of the 25 people that's in charge of doing the work in that facility. it is absurd to months later we do not have that. our investigators right now are at the facility they are conducting interviews those started on sunday and they will continue for the rest of the week. one example while we were out there, we investigate both spirit aerospace employees that did the work on the rivets what we don't know who did work on the door plug.

for the spirit aerospace employees we were just informed last week they are not spirit they are contractors they work for three different contracting firms aerotech, straw emaciation and launch all through the state of washington that work for three different entities those were not told to us by spirit aerospace that information was told to us through the individuals being interviewed that contacted us directly. i have -- we have engaged our attorney on this matter just so you are aware. >> i will say that's utterly unacceptable. the parties are being investigated by ntsb need to cooperate fully. congress expects them to cooperate fully you have an obligation to the american public to the bottom of what happened. today is march 6. i'm going to ask you to inform this committee and writing one week from today.

whether or not boeing has cooperated. i expect you to have that list of 25 names and i'm going to ask you week from today to inform this committee in writing whether they provided us 25 names or not. this investigation it needs to get to the bottom of what occurred and what caused the accident too. >> thank you i will provide that to the committee in writing. the 25 names is not just the 25 names would also like to get we have repeatedly requested from boeing the documentation that went along with the work of opening the door plug, closing the door plug or any sort of removal that exists. >> please include that information as well when you respond in writing a week from today to let us know the level of cooperation or seeing. >> thank you. >> thank you manager. >> thank you. the expert review panel found of boeing employees are still afraid to speak up and report safety issues.

there is a way for employees to speak directly to the faa is there a way for people to speak directly to aid in this investigation? >> yes. in fact i received a whistleblower report myself. anonymously we received some information i made sure our team have. also went to our team so we do have a couple of ways the best way is for people to reach out to us at the website witness ntsb.gov. witness at ntsb.gov. we will make sure to follow up on that information. >> were you able to get from the company what specific procedures they have for identifying storing, protecting, retrieving and retaining quality records? were they forthcoming on that? >> we have not received that information. >> does he factor boeing has not produced these documents are

ntsb investigators have not been able to retrieve them indicate they do not exist or ever existed? >> they may not. there are two options in that they exist and we don't have them or they do not exist which rages to -- several different questions depending upon which is the right answer. >> if you don't have that documentation ones that say but the quality assurance program? >> we have been told me back up on that. they have a procedure to maintain documents door plugs are open, closed or removed. we have not been able to verify that. and without that information that raises concerns about quality assurance, quality management, safety management

systems within boeing. flex that is why i asked the first question about procedures for storing and protecting. it's a lot of paperwork exist. people know you don't move the line. they looking up procedures in your same and not forthcoming even on the procedures? >> that is correct. we go very in depth and very broad. we look at the procedures, policies we also look at other work that was done around the same time or with the last several years to see if there are concerns with other work or records that may be missing. so, we go in depth and go in-depth on safety culture,

safety management as a whole. >> is the faa and their safety helpfulness or not helpful? >> faa has been very cooperative and very helpful to us in investigation. they've been a partner in the very beginning too. >> the. >> to any other aviation inspectors on-site have data of existed or didn't exist? >> it something i would like to follow up with her teaming up back with you on. >> and back to this point, every shift is documented. you can get their names. you can ask for interviews for those individuals in your thing that hasn't happened? >> corrected. we have gone through e-mails. we have gone through text.

we have looked at pictures to begin to get a picture of the date september the two dates in mid september we believe the work occurred. we have not received that information directly from boeing. we also believe we know what shift it occurred on but there is one team, one team that deals with the doors of 25 people. why we don't have those names today, two months later is really disappointing. >> it is beyond disappointed we have an entire economy that depends on people getting this right. co said there cooperate to the fullest. it seems like this information is ennobled spell talks the individuals there. do you have any concerns there

was a report that there could be an additional there was a dissent decree that was about to expire. i do have concerns our attorneys also have concerns only from the aspect we do not want to tell any other agency with they should or should not do. or it becomes a concern for us but will get the information at some point. where it becomes a concern for us as one employees and others don't feel safe to speak to us. >> that is occurring now. what do we need to do to make sure people feel safe and secure that's part of the expert report and a white we pass to make sure there is no retaliation. what else can we do? we cannot have a viewpoint that i just had to keep the line moving that is not the viewpoint

we want too. we want employees who say i have a concern about this and be listened too and to be backed up by those asi's that's what we want. and so in this case we want to understand whether that kind of retaliation still exists? what can we do to make sure these people feel free to speak to you into this investigating? >> i completely agree with that. the aviation industry is so safe because we do encourage the industry has encouraged anonymous reporting on through anonymous reporting address risk proactively. and encouraged in place to speak up that is how we have addressed safety and got tort excellent gold standard safety record we are today in the aviation industry. without there is a significant concern. i am aware of the concerns with

boeing which is why we are delving into safety culture and safety management. >> of you discuss this? out of the faa administrators have a five hour meeting with them last week. do you think this is part of the discussion? >> with faa? next guests. >> i imagine so. >> senator moran and then senator rosen. >> i appreciate that. say thank you to my colleague. i want to thank you for coming to tennessee recently heard a want to thank you for your hands on approach as you are dealing with these issues of train crashes and i know it has been more hands on then president biden and i appreciate that. i also want to say thank you for the outreach this week as we had

a plane crash and natural and foryour forthcoming information that has helped us with that. the press conference you have held. i would like to ask if there's any additional information you can supply today on that plane crash? >> the only additional information is to move the wreckage to a secure location in tennessee we are beginning to look at the wreckage of our deepest condolences to the family to adults and three children is very tragic. as we receive more information i will make sure you are informed on that paradox i appreciate that indeed we do extend those condolences and what a tragic situation. but as we discussed yesterday gratitude belongs on i-40 on that plane crashed i do want to add to the comments the ranking

member in chairman our concern over lack of cooperation and what we perceive as lack of cooperation on these investigations. i know that is a source of frustration for you and your team. it is for us because we hear some of that manufacturers are not as cooperative as they should be. the maintenance organization are not cooperative. madame chairwoman i would add it is not only the planes it's also trains. it is also other entities that are involved in the flying public. i do have one other question i wanted to ask you about. i have advocated for the lead experience flight. we look at what is happening of

the need to get these planes on error on time on schedule as it amendment it failed the union bosses had reached out to the faa to block this raising the pilot age 65 to 67. keeping the experience flying. with i was glad there was a guy with experts in the cockpit. i would just like to know if the airline pilots association has reached out to the ntsb to stand against that? i know you cannot take a position on the issue but i want to know if the union has reached

out to the ntsb? requesting a physician? >> the union has not reached out to the ntsb requesting that you know the ntsb on the facts are on a particular investigation we do not have a recommendation on that particular area. >> for the administration, for that union to reach out to the administration and the administration to have a position like the faa is completely inappropriate. thank you so much and i yell back my time for thinking madame chairman. >> thank you, senator. >> senator klobuchar thought senator rosen will be in expert center klobuchar assigned in so she is here and will go back. >> okay, very good thank you. thank you very much. thank you for your work. i want to start out with railway

safety. something you know is big in every state. the ntsb determine the cause of the derailment in minnesota, appreciate your interest in that, was a broken section of a track near the town. can you talk about investment in tracks and how important it is the importance of the railway safety act? >> rail infrastructure and safety. and that railway safety act we are appreciative to the committee for a number of our current recommendations. including expanding the definition of high hazard flammable trains. providing more information to local communities. actually have the gear in the training they need for their

important safety commission. certainly addressing 111. the provision be expanded even further to eliminate them from all sort hazmat service. one thing in particular in the minnesota investigation i will just mention we found out from the dot tank cars we saw the gaskets around those particular tank cars and especially the bottom outlets and some others, melted. the material came out. that's something we recommended to be addressed a couple of our happy to provide information. >> issued no the rail where they are on the scene, immediate cleanup. we were fortunate to what happened in ohio did your agency well but. >> they did a great job on that as well. was great working with them i

was pleased to be on the scene as well. >> thank you, i remember that it was a cold day. [laughter] it was cold great community they all came together and brought us lots of warmth and cocoa and you name it. >> exactly. i think i will ask on the record ntsb open recommendation something also want to mention then move to another part, air traffic control hiring. i have to talk to ms. whitaker about this. we have a very active airport. a great airport voted best book in north america to the last three years. could you talk about focusing on training and hiring more controllers will be a look at using the military people and the importance of that for safety. hiring is key. set goals for hiring what we are

not talking about. which is about half. it is a constant catchup investment. these investment is key for faa success in air traffic control. they are hired and trained with respect to training we've been advocating for meaningful, value added training personnel to proficiency. with praise to the aviation industry and transportation industry computer-based training with eric traffic control hands on for air traffic controllers

which they deserve it. we have found this move toward ipad, powerpoint training that employees are not really digesting that well. even training a week ago. it is not just providing meaningful value added training but really looking at how people learn. not everybody can learn well from an ipad or a powerpoint. making sure get they get the training they need that's appropriate for their position. >> very good. next-generation 911. the cochair of that bipartisan caucus. ntsb has issued recommendations related to 911 systems and inseveral investigations in rect years. can you talk about the importance of improving the 911 infrastructure we all know people are not just calling in on land lines anymore for their calling in on cell phones. they want to send pictures there

have been some improvements across the country but there could be many more. >> there more of the first responders on scene we are the investigators. making sure they have a robust communication system. make sure they have the infrastructure they need. they're able to get someone on their outline we have that have a numberof recommendations1 operators and local emergency responders on coordination during an investigation. and ensuring there is appropriate coordination happy to provide you more information all the recommendations. >> very good and one last thing on air traffic control the chairwoman has returned. i hope you will look at that it could be helpful. i see senator moran is here as well. cochair of the tourism caucus and is done a lot.

i think if your presence again today think if your continued efforts to keep us informed help in the cause. as plenary findings. you hosted several of us at ntsb we got to see in a sense the hands on circumstances and hear from your investigators. i think i had a good feel for what i thought transpired. at that point in time. your testimony today lack of cooperation suggest it tells me there is more to be known then the preliminary examination determine. what is it that keeps you able to issue your final report and may be already said that this morning? i want to hear in a concise what's missing kind of answer per.

>> limit report within 10 days to four weeks. factual information that we have so far. it really is the beginning of the investigation. when we conduct investigations such as this week is certainly a focus on timeliness of investigation. but it does take time. when we had to our lab and thank you for coming there. i wanted you to be able to see the door plug in person. to put ice on it rather than look at a picture or a diagram. putting eyes on something it makes it that much more real and you can understand what we are looking at. i want to do to be able to see what we had recorded in the preliminary report with respect to which bolts were missing. there are lots of bolts and

there's lots that hold components on the door plug in on the frame. there are four safety critical retaining bolts. their sole purpose is retaining the door plug on the airframe. and so what i wanted you to understand is what we saw there were no for bolts there. how we were able to determine that with our lab equipment and then later confirm it through some pictures that we received from boeing. i also wanted you to be able to see the water 54 plates in total that had occurred. and we could see at the top of the door plug how the door plug was migrating upward on the 154

flights. i wanted you to be able to see that with your eyes. since that time we have received all of the information and thank you to the faa administrator for this. we asked him for all of the information they had gathered with respect to the inspections of the other door plug. outside of alaska 1282 we were able to confirm we were talking about different bolts. they are bolts, the bolts they are talking about that were loose were again holding components on the door plug or the frame itself. the four bolts we are talking about with the exception of the few missing cotter pins the bolts we are talking about were safety critical those were not the one faa had identified in their work. so now transitioning to the full

investigation we have different teams that are digging into different pieces of this investigation put our structures team our operations team, the survival factors team the maintenance record team is what i am updating you on today which is right now and a number of other personnel who worked for boeing. we understand around the same time in the rivet in the door plug in about mid-september to try to identify that list of 25 people because it is important we begin to dig into those procedures. those policies to understand where we need to go on this investigation. we've asked repeatedly for information this is not new, not

something that is not specific to this investigation. for this one i did not understand how we cannot get the names at this .2 months down the road is not for a lack of trying. or interviewing people who are in that area. we asked for security camera footage. that security cameras all over. understand you did the work. >> boeing or spirit in this case it's boeing? >> we have not gotten there trying toprovide but can't find. all the security camera footage is a race within 30 days and

overwritten. >> just to be clear you're referring to names working that shift or are you talking about the documents? >> the documents they can't find the names we've not been provided. >> let me ask about the three subcontractors those are subcontractors of spirit air spr system? >> that is correct. it was thought spirit arrow system actual employees were doing work turns out to being done? >> that is correct. three different entities for the three different people. >> information regarding that circumstance? >> we are not at this time. it was a surprise to us we were not told before being contacted by the individual employees that they were contractors and who they were contractors for. but we do not have other

information missing right now from spirit air space to my knowledge. >> two quick questions i want to ask before my time expires further. ntsb and you make interim recommendations as far as safety. even though the final report is not done other things occurring at your recommendation that makes fine were safe? >> we can issue urgent recommendation urgent safety recommendations at any point if we believe they are warranted. we have the base those urgent safety recommendations on factual information. so when we believe we need to we do not hesitate enjoying that we do not wait until the end. >> is there any difference of use and ntsb finding to date and the faa findings to date?

eight-point to percent increase which is significantly higher than most other agencies within our capabilities of a budget of less pending issue than last. >> i strongly want to say thank you, it is really appreciated, many times that the ntsb we have to look at trade-off, we have a number of lab equipment that is ending at shelf life and i'm often times looking up we can replace lab equipment and it's not a trade-off i like to make that the draft into direct

investment with ntsb and i want to thank you for providing and also for including our reauthorization and faa, thank you so much i know i'm a strong advocate on our funding and i appreciate your hearing the needs of our workforce, thank you. >> thank you, chair camp while in chair holiday thank you for your hard work and your commitment to safety into finding out the causes of everything that is going on. i want to talk about a bit about, not necessarily what happens with this but our aging infrastructure overall the impacts aviation safety. aviation professionals are only as effective of the infrastructure technology that they rely on an average age of an faa traffic control center the actual centers are over 60 years old if facilities regularly operate with degraded

technology systems resulting in the inability to access accurate wind speeds, the failure of frequencies would congested airspace is really hurting them sometimes and we have malfunctioning runway lights, many air force also lack functioning service surveillance systems that used to track airborne and testing planes and airport vehicles meaning that some controllers have limited visual awareness of the aircraft that they're directing in lieu of a functioning radar system and the air traffic control facility and many controllers are actually filling the gaps by resorting to using public light tracking websites that are approved by the faa. the most alarming other reports that the faa lacks the funding to install one-way warning systems to prevent the runway collisions, only a few dozen of the nations commercial airports have surveillance collision

warning systems, chair holiday, how can we improve existing aviation technology and infrastructure to reduce the potential risk, manage the complicated airspace. it's not just the air traffic controllers, we know that's important but how does this fitted this is another piece of the safety that we need to worry about. >> i would say what i said previously another testimony which is robust funding for the faa the faa needs funding whether it's the dot, modal administration with ntsb that investment is an investment safety and they need that support in terms of funding whether it is for runway lights or whether it's for technology or to prevent runway incursion, there's also technology that we have advocated for and recommended going back 23 years

and asked the faa to require airlines to include technology in the cockpit of an airplane to alert pilots within there's an impending runway incursion that is something that they could act on right now without having funding but the other side is investment technology in our towers to ensure safety and to supplement safety for the workforce. >> thank you, i hope we continue to get more infrastructure money for our airports we have a lot more emerging aviation technology on the forefront. i know we have a lot going on but it's going on across the country and its new and exciting and we have air taxes that are delivering a tremendous promise and drones that will do delivery for your packages, maybe medication this can help in urban and rural settings sp tested across the country but all of the new technology and

airspace raise additional layer of aviation safety concerns in u.s. airspace become much more complex with all the new entrants. i know we need the investment in the airlines need to do some but we need to do our part, how should the aviation community how should we realistically look at the narrow technologies like air taxis, the unmanned air vehicles were drawn delivery into the aging system that is dealing with so many misses and other issues because the technology is aging, how do we integrate this and move forward. >> i can tell you what they speak to the ntsb, on the safety side we need to make sure that innovation is not number one, safety have to leave. safety always has to be number one. when it comes to the ntsb with emerging technology whether it's

a.m., drones or any other type of technology that is emerging we need to be ready, the investment and i appreciate senator moran and his advocacy and set a cantwell and others on this committee advocacy or ntsb funding for fy 24 and also in the reauthorization bill because that will help prepare us for when we are doing investigation. the emerging technology. we have done some recent ones, there are advantages to some of those investigations where we looked at doing investigations even testing and development to make sure the industry understands our investigative process while also for us to ensure we are keeping up with the technology that is out there. >> thank you in light of what

you said i hope the ntsb is not going to retire the most wanted list of safety priorities because i think that is really important for all of us to know as far as what we need to get going forward. thank you, madam chair. >> senator smit. >> thank you, madam chair, good to see you. >> i have some questions i know senator fisher mentioned some of this earlier as it relates to electric vehicles. the way of some of these vehicles, i know you mentioned the battery alone can be the way of a honda civic or a toyota corolla, it certainly safety issues like guardrails and other vehicles on the road do you agree with that? >> guess. >> there is also issues i want to talk about her infrastructure, the weight of the vehicles in this training can have on parking garages,

roads and bridges. the amount of money to reinforce or repair, who is looking at this because we have a mandate for auto manufacturers to produce 50% of their fleet to be electric vehicles by 2030 i know there's a new rule in the works to have that number increased of 65% or 25% by third country 2032 that's been considered. it seems that were entering a phase as it relates to the mandates for electric vehicles and all of the repercussions and i don't know who's addressing it. i'm asking you, are you guys looking at this, who is looking at this this seems to be a disaster on the horizon for the making people in her infrastructure but i don't hear a lot of talk about it. >> thank you, senator i have raised this consistently over

the past year end a half starting with the transportation board where i raise concerns with respect to increasing size and ways of all vehicles in particular the way of electric vehicles that we needed to look at the safety impact not just on crashes but to her infrastructure as well in protecting people, the whole reason why we have a guardrail is to protect people when there is a crash, it would not withstand some of the crashes with the weight of the heavy vehicles including heavy electric vehicles as demonstrated by the university of nebraska somebody needs to take action we repeatedly flagged it is with the department of transportation purview to do that and i encourage them strongly to get ahead, we're behind rain now. >> i know as it relates to first responders who are responding to

other involved lithium batteries, what is your take on the safety for the first responders is the responding to these crashes. >> is a significant danger we issued a report a few years ago raising concerns regarding a number of crashes that we investigated involving electric vehicles and the risk to emergency responders from stranded energy inside of the battery component and the potential and significant potential for shock, we also raise concerns in respect to secondary responders which are the tow truck operators. we saw many of these vehicles reigniting on the tow truck and up to five days later in the tow yard. >> the last question i have, you raise the issues and flagged the issues that relates to the ev's to the department of transportation, have you got a response from secretary

buttigieg or anybody responding to that is any momentum, what do you need from us. >> we have not issued a specific safety recommendation that we have raised it as an emerging trend in a problem that they need to take seriously. i have not had further interaction. >> we look forward to working with you. thank you. >> senator peters. thank you, madam chair, thank you so much for being here today and certainly i appreciate your advocacy as well as your leadership of the ntsb. i serve as the transportation subcommittee chair of this committee and i certainly strongly support reauthorizing the board and is a member of appropriations committee as well i know how important for robust funding as you mentioned already and certainly that has happened on a yearly basis to understand what the money is for the amount and then it will continue for you to plan accordingly.

in particular i know that you called for an increase year-over-year funding for the authorization request reflecting the need for more resources in the coming years due to staffing and capacity needs including changing realities on the ground on the transportation system. one thing i'm particularly interested in is ensuring the ntsb is able to meet the challenges of more connected and automated transportation system. i believe the conductivity autonomous systems have the capability to reap huge rewards in terms of safety in the years ahead and we have to do that with oversight investigations and all of that requires resources to make that happen. my question for you can you discuss the importance of ntsb reauthorization and robust appropriation for ntsb specifically to enable the board to meet the demands for cutting-edge transportation technology and increase capacity

related to data analytics in the coming years. >> right now we are a small agency before the cr we had 444 people when i came in i share with her hundred and 97 and i rapidly filter vacancies as a result of the cr we have a hiring freeze and we gone down to 429 we cannot bring another person in where that is a significant issue is our employees are investigators are doing more with less. if you take our structural engineer arlene structural engineer on alaska 1282, he is on duty 50% of his year, 50% he has one training right now but she is excellent and it will take her 1 - 3 years of training just to handle a major on her own, we need the people not just

in order to do the work and do the work while we also need the people to make sure that we have timely investigation which i think congress and the american public deserve i was able to work with our team to reduce the backlog of the investigation, those were almost 500 over two years when i took over as chair we hit on october 1 we are in a cr situation having gone down significantly in the aviation team we are backup 15 over two years this is a direct result not to mention the fact that i'm making daily choices with her team on how do we deal with $14 million of request internally for needs on training on needs with new lab equipment at the end of the useful life or

do i fund because before i became chair our entire electrical av and streaming system interpublic board room that provides information to the republic when we hold the public board meeting how do i get the information out if that equipment isn't working we put out feelers for how much that will cost to replace and i get back between two and half million dollars due i invested not to make sure the public can watch our board meeting or do i invest in training that our people need or do i invest in our people these are tough choices that we have to make every single day. we are looking at these numbers every single day and very cognizant, the ntsb is the world

standard when it comes to investigating accidents, crashes and other events, we need to remain the gold standard in the way that we do that is through investment not starving us so we appreciate your support. i'll tell you without reauthorization what happens we don't have a number out there so appropriators that you don't have a number will come up with a number. i personally went to omb, the white house and said i need 145, i need 150 for fy 25. i personally did not because that is what we need to do for the agency but if we don't have those numbers in an authorization people just pick what they think is right but it's not what we need. with that said i would very much appreciate the 140 it's a significant increase above where we are right now but in the

authorization bill in the senate authorization bill for the following four years in senate 145 for each year we need to increase the overtime the flat funding would hurt us. >> thank you manager. >> senator vance. >> thank you, madam chair and thank you all for being here and all your work. i know a lot of folks focus on the alaska airlines questions i want to focus on the train your ailment in east palestine, specifically madam chair i want to focus on the question of whether the controlled burn was actually necessary in east palestine to recap for folks the mushroom cloud the chemical mushroom cloud that captured headlines across the country was a result of a controlled burn and those of us that were focused on the issue were told if you hadn't done the controlled burn there would've been a uncontrolled explosion because the situation on the ground was incredibly chaotic

and dynamic. he had to do the controlled burn to prevent uncontrolled explosion. your team has done a good job i commend you and your team on looking to whether this is necessary and forgive me for requesting brief answers to questions i've a lot of them but i want to walk through in detail what you folks have found based on public recording that bmi team have gone through, februarf the train is it true north fix's other modern temperatures on one of the chemical tank cars on february 5 into the afternoon of february 6 which the controlled burn happened and communicated the readings the shippers and intern. >> that is accurate. >> is it true the readings indicated initial 135 fahrenheit at 4:00 p.m. on february 5 which eventually declined to 126 degrees fahrenheit at 9:30 a.m. on february 6 at which

point stabilized. >> that is correct it was stabilized well before the burn many hours before. >> declining temperatures you would think and stabilize temperatures are consistent not with something that needs to be exploded but was something that could be dealt with in a slightly less catastrophic way. is it true the oxley vinyls concluded the reported and stabilize tank were too low for a runaway chemical reaction meeting it would lead to an uncontrolled explosion - that is correct they testified that claim arising she was not occurring and for it to occur at norfolk southern in the contract justification for the burn we would have to rapidly increasing temperatures and infusion about neither which occurred. >> just to be clear you would need both of those things not either/or you would need both of those two persistent enter

participant. is it true norfolk southern contractors testified ntsb of chemical reaction occurring in the final four tankcar. >> we testify to that. >> is a react the chemical shippers had no heat directory to justify norfolk southern that a chemical reaction was burn? >> that is correct. >> from this assessment is it your understanding norfolk southern's contractor lacked scientific basis to support the conclusion that polymerization was occurring in the real tankers. >> yes in fact they were informed by oxley vinyls of the information that should've been taken by the contractors in their decision-making but yes they did not have that they lacked the scientific background to address that. >> let me go to one final

question here we can put all the facts together and it concludes norfolk southern's contractor recommendation to conduct a controlled burn lack scientific basis and disregarded data and contradicted expert feedback from the firm on-site this is to the decision-makers ahead they make a decision that less than 13 minutes to blow up all five of the chemical cars without any other voices be included to offer contrary, is that right. >> that is correct. >> i appreciate your work, just to summarize this is an extraordinary funding we were told effectively there are two bad options, the uncontrolled burn, excuse me the controlled burn or the uncontrolled explosion and it seems based on the data that we have that there was no attentive reason to do

the uncontrolled burn and that is what spread toxic chemicals all over the community and the surrounding region, it's really extraordinary goes to highlight the importance of your work but i also have to note, residents on the ground talk about the fact that immediately after the uncontrolled burn and move of the tank cars and trains moving to their town into the community i won't ask you to speak to motivations but when you have an unnecessary uncontrolled burn that poisoned a lot of people that led to rapid transit of change traffic a lot of people including me are wondering if they do this because it was not necessary but it allowed them to move traffic and train work quickly if so that's an extraordinary thing that requires a lot of further work from this committee and others but we will stop there because i see my time is up. >> may i add something to that.

senator i would say the factual information in our docket shows the oxley vinyl was on scene and providing information to norfolk southern and their contractors on the fourth, fifth and sixth they informed them that they believe claim organization was not occurring and there was no justification to do a burn. rightfully north for southern contractors rolled out hot topping and transloading because it would've been a safety issue for their employees but there was another option, let it cool down it was cooling down we know for a fact that when the pressure release device went off that it had to of been above 18e course of 22 hours and that

tankcar was cooling not to mention the other four tankcar's there were only between 64 and 69 degrees. oxley vinyl was on scene providing information to norfolk southern's contractor who was in the room when the decision was made and when advice was given to the governor of ohio to the commander, they were not given full information because no one was told oxley vinyl was on scene they were left out of the room the incident commander did not even know that they existed and neither did the governor so they were p incomplete information to make a decision. >> yes go ahead senator.

>> my only question i would be clear is not a criticism of the commander or the governor, i think it's a criticism of people on the ground who provided inadequate information and provided inadequate information to the great detriment of the community on the ground this is extraordinary work by your team but this is a really, really troubling set of circumstances in this town very well have been poisoned to facilitate the rapid movement of freight were was poisoned for reasons that we cannot identify that should really concerned every single person on the committee. >> i cannot wait to get your bill on the senate floor and as i said in my opening comments today this is so critical it requires this kind of recording so local communities can plan appropriately and they should disclose what they are pushing through community. yes i hope we can get this done. >> thank you so much. >> senator baldwin. >> thank you, madam chair.

>> thank you so much for coming before the committee and your tireless dedication to safety across all modes of transportation. i would like to discuss for a moment our work to improve the safety. in 2019 the caution of an air tour helicopter in hawaii killed six passengers in the pilot including a mother and a daughter from madison wisconsin. for that reason it's become a real priority for me and i know it's also been for senator schott. final report on the accident is may of 2022 and cite several safety recommendations that are outstanding by the faa and also issues new recommendations. i was pleased to see the faa proposed new safety improvement in august of 2023 and it works

closely with senator schott and chair cantwell to include additional safety improvements in the faa bill that passed this committee a few weeks ago. i'm wondering if you could provide a status update on how you view the current safety standard for helicopter air tours and do you believe the safety provision included in the senate version of the faa bill would improve the safety of these tours. >> thank you very much for your work on this issue and for senators work on this issue i think it's critical, the ntsb believes in one level of safety. before i became ntsb chair or worked on the committee on transportation and infrastructure if i showed up with my family to take in air tour, i would not know to ask

what are the qualifications of the crew, what are your operating standards, what are your operating rules what are your maintenance procedures you would not normally ask those questions if you were somebody that shows up or appear shoot jump flight you think my biggest risk is jumping out of the plane not getting on the plane which also crashed in hawaii. so we believe european passenger whether you're on car 121 or 35 or part 91 you deserve the same level of safety and we have advocated strongly for a set of regulatory standards that address just that we have seen no action on that this is something i have been extremely passionate about since i have came to the board whether it was flying ion in new york where we literally listened to some of

the people's last moments that were strapped into a helicopter on an air tour with a home depot harness that was supposed to hold them in and they could not unhook it, they drowned, it is horrific. still we don't have the standards that we recommend we didn't tire report on ensuring safety and revenue passenger operation under part 91 we looked at incidents or accidents terrible tragedies in hawaii, arizona i met you new york, connecticut with the b-17 historic adventure flight that crashed and each time we continue to say safety needs to improve and each time we've been ignored people the public deserves better faa should issue

standards to ensure their safety. >> thank you for your work. >> thank you. >> i know several of my colleagues already erased the issue of train derailment in real safety. i'm very concerned that the derailment rate of the largest for class one railroads have increased by 23% in the last decade. while not nearly as devastating as a derailment in east policy that was being discussed my home state of wisconsin saw a trained aroma over the last year as well including one in desoto wisconsin that led to some of the real cards temple rarely in the miccosukee river. would you be able to speak to your belief i received an increase added decrease in derailments in the past decade and specifically what we need to

do to confront that challenge. >> thank you for the question senator. one thing that is of particular concern, a derailment rate is a combined rate for mainline and for the yard we are seeing a significant increase in derby ailments and tragedies in the yard that is where were very concerned about employee safety, we seen that repeatedly and we issued a number of recommendations and we have a lot of open investigation, north fork we have 11 opening a safety culture review separate from east policy but in particular we have 190 safety recommendations that we have issued that are currently open to improve real safety whether it's preventing

fatigue or providing for increasing sections or new technologies to supplement, not the plant workers but supplement the work to ensure safety, those 190 have not been acted upon and were happy to provide those for the hearing record but they can be today and i hope they will. >> thank you, senator baldwin, senator doc work thank you for your leadership as a subcommittee we appreciate your help. >> thank you matter. thank you for your leadership and getting the faa reauthorization out of committee in a bipartisan way. i also want to thank chair holiday for being here in your work on the investigation i have a few things i want to say before i asked you short questions. it's because i'm concerned about ntsb findings that pilots on flight 1282 were unaware that the cockpit door was designed to automatically open in a depressurization on the alaskan

airline flight when the door plugs fell out. as a pilot i cannot convey strongly enough how critical it is for the flight crew to be fully informed of the futures on the flight deck and in-flight emergency is not the time for a flight crew to learn about something like this. also as we saw pilots not knowing about a flight about futures can be deadly this is more alarming considering this is the third time that boeing has kept information about max flight features of from private faa has let boeing get away with it the first two times this is become a dangerous pattern which faa needs to break at the start of the max program boeing removed mcas from the flight manual with faa's blessing. subsequent investigation raise questions about how can faa with the significance of mcat, despite this when evidence emerged of an internal planet boeing to intentionally downplay the significance to a regular

faa did not investigate, they reduce the significance to a regular concern these are internal boeing i have my poster which is the internal e-mail within boeing itself that says this, these are internal boeing minutes showing employees plated to not use the turn outside of boeing because if we emphasize mcat as a new function there be greater certification and training impact, they also show a number of boeing organizational designation authority to oda approving this plan, yet faa to commit no action in response to the evidence according to the department of transportation inspector general faa did not consider planning out who the oda unit member was to ensure that he or she was not authorized to perform

certification work on behalf of the faa, boeing also intentionally hid from pilots the fact that the aoa disagree alert on nearly 80% of boeing 737 max 8 aircraft was not functioning, when boeing discovered the defect they did not report to faa or inform airlines or pilots opting instead to keep it a secret key producing planes with the known defect in years to fix it until planned software updates in the future, boeing's plan was disrupted when the first 737 max crash in 2018 and worldwide attention begin to focus on aoa sensors the company was forced to admit that the aoa disagree alert was not functioning almost 737 airplanes and they knew about it. unlike mcat this is not a safety related issue, however, this is a clear violation of the approved flight design and this

is the founding from the u.s. department of transportation of inspector general, the inspector general looked into this and said all features included in the pipe designer mandatory whether or not they are required for safety, the district was not necessary to me faa safety regulation it was required to be installed in functional as their approved design, faa took no action against boeing for the brazen intentional disregard of the approved type design, if faa's not going to bother to enforce the regulation why would boeing ever obey them, chair, here are my questions, would you agree as a matter of safety pilots need to know what features on the flight deck. >> absolutely it is a matter of safety, they need to be fully informed so they know what to expect. >> thank you. >> would you also agree it is dangerous for pilots to first learn about this on a flight

deck during in-flight emergency. >> yes i would extend that to the entire flight crew and including the cabin crew one member of the particular flight was hit by the door as a blue well there was a lot going on at the time and with complete chaos they need to know what to expect and this was a complete surprise. >> thank you. >> year referring to the alaska airline incident. >> yes alaska 1282. >> if faa does not enforce its design do you think that would make the manufacturer more or less likely to abide. >> this is a difficult one for me to answer because this is not something that we have investigated. >> okay, thank you. >> i am over time. >> thank you so much. >> senator welch. >> thank you very much, the question of safety is incredibly

important the question of cost is also very important. in my understanding right now you are making assessments of safety, your focus solely is on safety and not on cost, i know some of my colleagues think that you should be responsible to make a cost-benefit analysis as you consider safety factors. i'm a skeptic of that i think that decision should be made to the recommendation is made and i want you to comment on that both are legitimate concerns and all of us would agree safety has to be paramount. if there is a proposal in your agency would have to make a cost-benefit analysis how would

that affect safety. >> significantly. the ntsb is founded on safety our entire mission is safety we do not consider cost-benefits of any particular recommendation if the recommendation is 80% which is adopted acceptably, voluntarily by the recipients which shows a high success rate as it is. what i will say when it comes to a recommendation, the recipients have a choice you implement them or you don't at the recommendation is not a requirement we hope you do that is certainly a recommendation. what i will say, the regulator, if they choose to take on whatever recommendations and it requires the regulation they go through cost-benefit analysis that is their authority. i've heard this a number of times. the ntsb mandate is to save lives.

if i'm out there in our investigators are out there at a particular scene at a terrible terrible tragedy could you imagine if we do an entire investigation based on facts and have to sit there and determine what is economically feasible that would prevent this from happening again that is terrible what the public deserves, what you deserve is to know what would prevent it from happening again what would prevent the tragedy from reoccurring then you can decide and consider the recommendation and determine whether you should move that forward. the public deserves to know what is right, what is the right thing to do and if we ever had to do a cost-benefit analysis it would take another year to issue another report, talk about timeliness that goes right out the window. >> i agree with that and i think cost issues you have to look to the manufacturer to figure out a

better way to do it in maintain safety. it would be inappropriate if shifting of the burden on your organization that is committed to safety if we impose obligation on you it would be a real conflict. >> can i add why should we evaluate the safety of economics if we issue a recommendation to an entity that was part of an event why should we consider what is feasible or cost-effective to implement versus what is right i agree, thank you very much for the question. >> i know you been asked a lot about boeing how can congress support the ntsb efforts to the agencies on the standard of boeing's quality and safety management system as we consider ntsb preauthorization.

>> the ntsb has a lot of authority that we can use in our investigation we certainly have subpoenas and were not afraid to use it if we need to. we hope it does not come to that we help that we can get cooperative participation whether it's our interviews or working with the parties to our investigation but it does concern us that we don't have certain information that we should have today. with that said we have the ability to get the information. i will say one thing about the ntsb in reauthorization and funding for us, when a major cruise that because jim becomes number one in our structural engineer handled 50 to 20 cases a year, what happens the other 15 or 20 they get moved aside so we can focus on 1282, people died in the other 15 to 20 cases this is why we need personnel and need to ensure their

training and why we need to ensure that their investing in every mode and every office of the agency including the critical lab equipment. >> thank you very much i yield back. >> i think the prompting of the question might be the delay in the real sms and i think some people may in the past articulated the cost-benefit analysis of that and i don't know the right word but you could go with a lesser. no you have to have a robust system to ensure safety i think his comments and asking the question is not to the ntsb doing the analysis but the perception that a real estimate

never got implemented because people argued on the cost-benefit analysis. i agree to the report the legislation mandated and were waiting for that to happen and will get a hold faa accountable that it is implemented so there is no substitute for. >> mccauley from georgia. >> thank you very much madam chair, how do you welcome back i would like to briefly revisit the tragic and deadly crashes of airflight 610 and ethiopian airline flight 302, can you remind me who manufacture these aircraft. >> the manufacturer is boeing. >> thank you. >> let's revisit the 2023 east palestinian ohio trained aroma, can you remind me which freight rail operated this train.

>> norfolk southern. >> thank you. >> what about the recent recall of 2 million vehicles with autopilot technology that is the subject of a multiyear national highway traffic safety administration who manufactures those vehicle. >> tesla. >> thank you an incident that we've heard a lot about today, the alaska airlines flight 1282, door plug blowout who is in charge of manufacturing the. >> boeing. >> i see a pattern here at the heart of each of the incident there is a massive corporation of fortune 500 economic for country that has a deep lobbying bench and i'm concerned that each of these incidents though unique in their circumstances may have been the result of a focus on production targets and

profit margin over safety related to the question of my colleague senator welch asked. an insufficient safety culture and our transportation system and among its suppliers and ironically we have colleagues who are asking whether or not we should do the cost-benefit analysis is a part of your analysis of sometimes tragic incidents, the ntsb has investigated each of these incidents and the company is tasked with ensuring the safety of their products, throughout your investigation have you seen any evidence that these companies might maximize profits at the expense of the safety. >> we do not have evidence of either way. >> what tools does the ntsb have to investigate and improve the safety of culture within these

companies and across the broader transportation system. >> with respect to safety culture we dove in on safety culture in many of our investigations for no frog southern were doing a separate investigation involving organizational safety culture with norfolk southern because we are currently investigating eight accident involving norfolk southern to a relatively short time. , we're doing the safety culture assessment and we've done similar assessment including metro-north in the past, we are also digging in on safety culture with respect to the alaska 1282. >> if i interrupt what tools do you have. >> with human performance experts at the ntsb who dove into safety culture within the agency so we have expert

investigators certainly we have subpoena authority that we can get records but we have expert investigators that can identify deficiency and recommend. >> you can understand why these incidents are deeply concerning to us if anybody's paying attention. his ntsb needed additional tools from congress to improve the safety culture within the company's. >> our best resources is her people they are top-notch world-renowned investigators who know how to evaluate a safety culture within any entity and identify deficiencies, we need people and we need training for those people, that is a direct investment safety. >> thank you very much. >> yes madamadam chairman.

>> thank you, madam chair. >> i'm ready. >> i want to continue on alaska airlines flight 1282 questioning, it's on everybody's mind across the country really on my constituents mind given how much we fly alaska airlines a very good airline i fly almost every weekend. let me ask you specifically on that and not have a specific alaska safety question. i thank you know alaska airlines was the first airline with the faa safety management system and in previous hearings we discussed the value of the sms and the scalability of the sms

for smaller operators, can you talk about the importance of the safety management system not just in terms of enhancing safety in the episode that you are investigating but in particular what you envision a more mature sms system and being able to be helpful in terms of safety, big airlines and smaller operators. >> there are four pillars for safety management systems it's everything from safety comprehensive safety policies in place and safety risk assessment and safety assurance and safety promotion which gets a safety culture and turning of the workforce, having a robust safety management system is key for any operator. i agree with your comments on

scalability, we do believe any operator whether large or small can proactively identify and address those risks and continue to monitor how they have addressed the risks to ensure how they address them as effective and continually reevaluate those risks to ensure safety volvo so promoting safety among the workforce whether it is through three people or hundreds of people. >> thank you for the answer let me turn to aviation safety and alaska. in february 2020, the ntsb issued a report calling for the faa and ntsb to take a much more comprehension volvo approach to aviation safety in my state, as you know whether it's crashes or

fatalities we have the highest per capita numbers in the country. a lot of reasons for that, the big state not as much infrastructure as we need, challenging whether, this led to the report, your report ntsb, thank you it led to the launch of a very important program, the faa alaska aviation safety initiative what we call fazio and alaska and again, that is what the faa and ntsb in the aviation community in alaska. i want your commitment to continue to focus on that it is a really big deal. a lot of these numbers are from the lack of infrastructure, my view were all americans and even cost more for infrastructure and alaska than we deserve it because everybody else in the

lower 48 has significant more infrastructure in terms of aviation than we do despite the challenges and alaska. i want to thank the chair, the faa reauthorization bill that we passed with very strong bipartisan support work to address a number of these challenges highlighted in february 2020 report and in the broader faa fazio initiative dealing with upgraded and maintenance of weather observation systems, increase utilization of ifr routes, additional ground-based, transmitter a whole host of things but can i get your commitment to continue to work with my office, the faa, this committee to address the issues raised in year 2020 ntsb report to make alaska aviation safer. again sometimes we hear it's

going to cost more because we have to put more infrastructure, my view, yay it's going to cost more, these are americans just like they would be if it was any other state in the lower 48. can you give me an update on how that's going, fawzi and any other issues we need to work on. >> you have my commitment and i would also like to say i have been to the alaska regional offices and our director of the office of aviation safety behind me came back from the regional office in alaska and i want to thank you for your relationship and your staff's relationship with our investigators in our lead investigator. >> we think the great. >> likewise, thank you is an incredible relationship we really appreciate it. >> i thank you have unique and great needs whether it's infrastructure or investment and whether technology or a host of

safety needs and you deserve the investment, we will support that support the work of the faa throughout the initiative it will be critical for the ntsb that we made the recommendation that we believe in it and you have my commitment to work,. >> i appreciate that i want to think the chair again on helping us with a lot of the amendments of the faa bill that directly came from your 2020 report in the fawzi initiative but we are not done yet, thank you both. >> the main transportation system in alaska is by air and we want to get this right and help them in any way that we can we have a vote underway in a second one following so will wrap up soon. >> thank you chair and thank you for being here today yesterday the national highway traffic safety administration closer comment. on the events noticed overall

making of impaired driving technology. over 17000 comments submitted many from victim sharing their own stories on why the technology is so important. in 2021 i was proud to pass the legislation the halt and right act with colleagues senator peto's, capital in rick scott as part of part of the infrastructure bipartisan and this requires that impaired driving technology be in all new cars after 2026. yes or no does impaired driving provision of the bipartisan infrastructure law align with ntsb prior recommendation on the most important tools that we can used to address impaired driving. >> you senator. >> i appreciate that and look forward to reading the comments from the automotive suppliers and manufacturers that want to be part of finding a solution as

i saw at the recent autoshow in washington, d.c. and others across the country there is technology out there that there really doing a lot of this work and i was encouraged to see major automotive manufacturers behind much of the technology as well, that was one of the goals to create a market so innovation would be unleashed and i've seen it happen, yes or no requiring impaired driving prevention technology in vehicles reduce the number of traffic fatalities on our roadways and save thousands of lives each year. >> yes that is backed by research. >> i appreciate that. i was proud to lean on an amendment to reauthorize ntsb as part of the faa reauthorization with the chair of this committee maria cantwell where we were able to earn support to the cheers leadership and be able to get this done, i know during your tenure as chair the ntsb

has eliminated the backlog of investigation and i want to commend you for that some of which had previously gone and complete four years. yes or no to the increase of staffing levels over the past three years enable the ntsb to eliminate the backlog of investigations. >> it was a combination of increase in staffing levels and improvement to our process which i have to say i have said the vision was the team that did the work and really proud of them. >> if congress fails to provide in stb was sufficient resources i think i got the ackerman wrong with sufficient resources will impact the agency's ability to close the investigations in a timely matter will not negatively impact the ability to get that done . . .

we went down today we are 429 over 15 investigations right over. it is a direct impact. if we have less employees, our employees are forced to do more with less. our employees are our greatest resources. and they are key to improving safety. quick similar to the previous questions in recent years we have seen historic levels of traffic fatalities on the roadways. my question is, yes or no would increase authorization to do even more to reduce the number of deaths each year on our

roadways? >> yes, certainly we have millions of crashes that occur on our roads. we hover around 30 people of the highway safety office. they need more people. >> chair cap while i do have a few questions pertaining to the investigation. in conducting i will submit those into the record. very much appreciate your time today i yield back too. >> thank you, senator. as i mentioned were running out of time we have others back to back up. i want to submit some questions for the record i'm going to >> some things on east palestine. that i want answered pretty also want to note is the 25th anniversary of the pipeline explosion in washington which killed three children under the age of 19. the company's negligence was so severe multiple company executives were sent to jail for the judge indicated the lack of effective federal oversight. i'm going to submit questions

about the lack of investigations in the keystone pipeline. but what resources would help the board be more effective when do you deploy and what pipeline safety would you recommend to congress that we also do to enhance? just so for the record that we have. i just want to say i am also going to send a letter to boeing and the various manufacturers saying we need this information immediately as it relates to this investigation. also to send that to the faa. not sure why that has not happened. one of the reasons we wanted to have you here today is people need to listen to the ntsb. so often you have done work to actually get the data and information. and then the consequences people do not listen to it.

we'll try to do everything we can ask for a trend report. truck part of the trend report is to bowl to bolster the recommendation. just listen to them and monitor the trend. your appearance or before the committee led to a conference the faa was holding were you already said we need to do something that near miss technology not being listened to. and the faa enacting a minister at that point in time putting out a directive. so, we are doing everything we can. we need to get this right. i think showing their support for your investigation is helpful per people should not forget they are also the largest exporter of our country aviation. we want to get this right for their kick key component of the deity system.

we need to get this right privy to help with the investigation so we can find out what in our system needs to be improved. i don't think will be a surprise to say true safety management system needs to be implemented. what that i see my colleague here i am going to ask that hearing records remain open for two weeks in any senator submit questions for the record. at the conclusion of senator markey's questioning we be adjourned and he gavel us out. thank you so much. >> thank you. since the door plug flew off the boeing 737 max nine in january, national transportation safety board is an excellent work to help identify the cause of this incident. but many experts believe the answer goes back much further to boeing's in 1997 merger with aerospace manufacturer mcdonnell

douglas. it is well documented after this merger boeing's coulter shifted. from excellence to prioritizing the bottom line too. this cultural shift is a systemic that allowed the door plug to break loose. the fact they subcontractor that was involved in the door plug blowout spirit aerosystems used to be a part of boeing itself. after the 197 merger with mcdonald douglas and an effort to shed manufacturing costs. even then, boeing engineers warned this profit motivated strategy put the entire for thee manufacturing process at risk. fast-forward to today. those engineers have been proven correct. boeing's weak oversight and failure to prioritize safety endanger the lives of the 180 passengers aboard alaska

transatlantic flight. chair, from your previous investigations stem from a culture that fails to prioritize. >> i would say with respect to safety culture, safety culture has to be a priority whether it's for boeing or any other organization. when this particular accident or event we are digging in on boeing's safety culture. it is absolutely critical. the aviation industry success has really been a result of having a good safety culture where you have people who can freely report and stop work if they feel there is a safety issue they know an entity takes the reporting seriously, follows up and promote safety. we need that at boeing and any other entity we conduct an

investigation. >> you do have concerns? >> yes we do. that will be part of our investigation of the alaska 1282 door plug blowout progression going to look at safety culture beyond this incident? across the entire company? >> we are going to guess we are going to look at safety culture within boeing. >> you are going to look at the cultural concerns broadly? >> yes, yes but. >> is absolutely critical. now i would like to turn to the significant risk posed by autonomous vehicles. in the past eight year ntsb has investigated multiple incidents involving autonomous driving technologies like tesla autopilot system. they are designed to operate in specific conditions. particularly on highways. in fact in 2016 ntsb recommend

national highway traffic safety administration and auto manufacturers to restrict drivers from activating the systems outside the road conditions it's long past time you take firm control of the wheel and steer to it safety and implement recommendation. so madame chair can you briefly explain the reasoning for this recommendation? >> yes. in fact i thought this may come up you are a champion on this issue. i just pulled tesla statements which is really there are limitations on operational design domain. they worn on their website for those who have vehicles some of their automation will not work in some areas. including areas of poor visibility, heavy rain, snow, fog, bright lights come on coming sunlight, mud, ice, snow,

earth structure objects bouncing onto the vehicle. narrow high curvature or winding rose damage misaligned a bumper extremely cold temperature and area where the vehicle is not designed to operate using that technology. who reads that? >> that just leaves your backing out of the driveway and going back into your car again. other than that you're out on the road. this is not like the postal service rain, sleet, snow. they are saying the sunlight might affect it. or this note might affect it or raining conditions might affect that winding roads might affect it. as i am listening to that description it sounds like to me it is not ready for prime time it's not ready to be handed over to people who have grown up with a car that they drive they

expect the brakes or the steering wheel to all work no matter where they are going. and not by the way this thing that you just turn on could be extremely dangerous for you two kids in the backseat. >> evidently designed to be operated in a certain type of environment, it should be limited to those environments. we issued that recommendation to tesla following the 2016 tragedy in florida. we issued the first recommendations but we issued it again. both have failed to act on those recommendations are. >> in 1999 i was successful -- way to pass a safety bill ford explorer mess. one of the amendments i got was on your dashboard is a little light that goes on if your tires

underinflated. as ask the industry to go to the moon or something. but how many people look at that they say oh my goodness maybe i should go in and inflate a little bit. but it is a warning. this could be dangerous for you. i'm just listening to what you're saying it's like this should be a little car right there above the light hears all the way this technology does not in fact operates safely on the road so people can be seeing it on an ongoing basis. in other words saying you should know to inflate your tires but we had to give people a little extra warning. i think the list you just read is something that cannot be buried in the fine print. i cannot be assuming that people know it is dangerous for all those conditions. and so for my perspective i think that we reach a point

where we have to have higher standards for tesla. we have to have higher standards for any company this going to be moving towards autopilot because there are certain set of assumptions that we make about safety that don't necessarily transfer over. i really do look forward to working with you madam chair on this and on with all of my colleagues and one final question if i could, i would like to discuss the importance of ensuring freight trains have two-person crews. over and over we sing safety benefits of multi- crews after the east palestinian derailment last year this committee heard a loud and clear having multiple crews on the train and increased crew of several crew members on the train that derailed enhance

safety? >> we reviewed the transcript from inward facing camera and it was clear they did a phenomenal job. there were three people in that locomotive. while most the locomotive engineer focused on operating the train. the conductor at one point got out after it derailed to say what's going on here? is it on fire? there is uncoupling of the locomotive so they could live move forward and be safe as they do in standard practice. and another was talking with dispatch. there is incredible crew resource management there. >> has the ntsb invested other rail accidents having multiple members on board? >> there is one in iowa involving ethanol one crew

member had uncoupled the cars right before the derailment pulled the car away from the fire to ensure their mitigating any damage. the other crewmember and pulled the other cars from the other end. so they isolated that took two crew members to do that. >> excellent. it's a two-person crew is a matter safety. extra set of eyes. extra set of hands, people to deal dangerous situations when they occur is absolutely essential. that is why i am so glad the effort senator vance and i made

to include that language in the railway safety act of which the committee passed last year and a ranking member crews is so important because it mandates. i think that's a common sense response to the obvious safety benefits your agency has identified and having those people on board. so, i just think we have to pass that legislation. it is very important a two-person crew provision is essential. we're going to continue to work as hard as we can to enhance safety to keep that in all the way to the president's desk. so we thank you so much for all of your work. i feel like i am all alone here and just go on indefinitely. >> i'm happy to talk. >> i know you are it's great to

have somebody who is such an expert on all the issues. i thank you for your great work. thank you for your work on safety and on behalf of ntsb you have been a real champion. really everyone has on this committee we really appreciate your support. >> thank you so much. and with that i would say it, and i've not done this for a long time for this hearing is adjourned. [inaudible conversations]

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