twice. mr. weld: he did health care and finance. all the stuff i take credit for and cutting the budget was actually history child. -- his dream child. >> thanks for coming out. mr. weld: my pleasure. thank you all. [inaudible] ♪ >> campaign 2020. watch our live coverage of the presidential candidates on the campaign trail and make up your own mind. c-span's campaign 2020. your unfiltered view of politics. c-span's campaign 2020 coverage continues as president trump posts a keep america great rally in minneapolis, minnesota.

live tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span. watch anytime at c-span.org and listen wherever you are using the free c-span radio app. this is michael pillsbury with the hudson institute. he's their senior fellow and affairs for the asian in the george h.w. bush ministration. also when outside advisor to the president on china. >> good morning. reportedly today, trade talks between the two countries -- what do you expect from the actual talks themselves? guest: this is a rising power that has reached 75% the size of our gdp. we were quite close during the cold war, cooperated in covert action on many issues. as the chinese tried to surpass us, it is creating an effect in

our political system. would this be a good thing to have a communist party country surpassing us, being the world leader in economics? that is what is at stake in the trade talks. the president has a lot of bipartisan support for rebalancing the trade talks. the word he likes to use is "reciprocity," but the chinese do not see it that way. they see themselves coming out of 100 years of humiliation by the west and they have made a dent big time. they see this as a way to harm their economy so they never will be able to surpass america. i refer to this as two porcupines meeting. it is difficult to conduct these talks, even though it sounds simple, like why can't we have reciprocity and increase trade and investment between the two countries?

the trade talks have turned up a number of issues that nobody really thought would happen in advance. host: to the fact that they are meeting face-to-face, is this a positive sign? do you advise the president on how to advise -- approach these matters? guest: i advise everyone by going on television interviews. this is round 13 in terms of face-to-face meetings. daysusually last couple of . it is not negotiations that go through a couple of months. each side's back to the leadership and go through what each side is demanding. there talks are secret. that isted information out can be summarized in like two sentences. there is a 150 page draft agreement. china reneged on some of it.

it has seven chapters, and according to the person in charge of the talks on behalf of president trump, ambassador lighthizer, it has an endorsed dutch enforcement with three layers of appeal where companies can complain about something, and there is an adjudication to a higher level, and ultimately some sort of punishment would happen, and the other side would not retaliate for that punishment. that is all that is known about the talks. host: do you expect at the end of it anything to come out, or is this part of another multi layer of talks to go forward? guest: both sides want an agreement. president trump says the chinese side wants it desperately due to the level of pain they are feeling. china says it is america who is

desperate for the agreement, they can get along without it, but both sides want an agreement. the question will be, how soon? the idea of what the president has somewhat called the grand agreementsem all being struck today are tomorrow, that is not likely, but they want to get back to trade and investment on a reciprocal basis. oft: we hear certain sectors manufacturing talking about how it affects their business. is there a point where short-term economic harm becomes a matter with these talks? guest: yes, and obviously it is a matter of relative pain, which economy is feeling the pain subjectively and objectively. to some degree, i think a communist party controlled country like china can observe more pain in terms of the leader

does not face reelection every four years. president xi does not have the blessing of a nancy pelosi in his house of representatives to criticize him. will unclear whether china ever have an election again. there president has called off the infernal to arm limit they use to have -- term 1 -- informal term limit they use to have. "blessing" on the chinese side. side, there trump's is support on the principle, china should not steal our intellectual property, steal our subsidies, their market is open to us. ,hen you get into the details you get various pressure groups or individuals criticizing the

president about the various details. that is where the pain comes out, what are the farmers who are part of his electoral base way see this in a patriotic , or will see their farms collapsing and turn away? host: what is the potential for more tariffs? guest: the president has a number of escalation options. tariffs are low. there is no limit on how high you can put tariffs. you been 100% and 200% if really want to harm trade. tariffs in the beginning were to protect industries. that is the alexander hamilton concept, our first steven mnuchin. these are low-level tariffs. moreresident can cover sectors and raise tariffs to a higher level, but has other

options to l -- escalate as well. , how dochael pillsbury you define yourself specifically with your relationship with the president on china? guest: i am like a friend or guest to answer questions. host: here to talk about u.s.-china relations, if you want to ask questions, (202) 748-8001, republicans. (202) 748-8000, democrats. . independent, (202) 748-8001 if you want to text us, (202) 748-8003. you can post on facebook. our guest has written a book. i want you to respond to a story on the daily beast website. i will redo the headline, you are quoted as an advisor handed

information about hunter biden from the chinese. i said last night on the blue dobbs program. to beijing.nt visit i said the chinese are unwilling to say anything about hunter biden. i had never seen them so secretive about an issue. the story says reportedly, you were given information about a trip there last week. were you in china last week? on octobers in china 1. i did meet with some chinese. did not give-- i me any intelligence about hunter biden. host: i only say this -- guest: i do not know where the report came from. host: the financial times is quoted as you saying, i got quite a bit of background on hunter biden from the chinese, pillsbury told the

financial times. guest: i have not spoken to the financial times for a month. i was interviewed by them about the trade talks. host: no information from the hunter biden on the chinese concerning hunter biden. guest: they would not talk about hunter biden. host: any sense of where this is coming from? guest: no. the financial times is a very rapid will newspaper. i subscribe myself. i have been interviewed by the many times but not about hunter biden. host: so you can respond that you run foxbusiness wednesday night. you raised the issue of the trip to china. that was true. dobbs business show last night. i said the chinese did not want to talk about hunter biden. that is all. host: their last line of the

president asking you to raise the issue or not. guest: he did not ask me to raise the issue. i wanted to clarify that before we got to our discussion on china. rich starts us off in ohio. you are on with our guest, michael pillsbury. caller: interesting discussions going on here. oneresting discussions going that china has joined organizations and they are supposed to agree on certain things. if they would join, they were supposed to do things. they were supposed to do certain things. they choose not to do them. meanwhile, when they say you should do this, they say they are getting bullied. they agreed to the benefits of the organization that they should do these things. that they call it bullying in the press goes right along with them. does their talking points and

puts us in a difficult point. the second point is, people in china can get tripped -- to get tracked by saying bad things. they can get tracked in the united states through some of our internet companies. i will hang up and hear your answers. guest: well, there is not really a question in there. the chinese have joined many organizations. they generally abide by the rules of all of them. mostthey violate rules -- outrages from my point of view is the wto. it took 15 years of negotiations before they were allowed to join the wto. when they violated those provisions -- one example is not to provide government subsidies to injuries -- when they violate those rules, there is a dispute

resolution -- sort of a committee of judges in geneva. we have sued china. they have also sued us in this court. they have a nasty pattern. i will give you an example. they lost a case in 2012. they were accused of not opening their market to our main credit cards, mastercard, visa, discovery, american express. they lost fair and square. they admitted it was true. the order from the dispute settlement council was they would open their markets. that is in 2013. they never really opened their markets to our main credit cards. you can use them in some international hotels but not all 1.4 billion consumers. drain the time china has not abided by this ruling against

them, they have subsidized their own international credit card, which is now the largest revenue of any credit card in the world. you may have seen transunion -- it has different names in different countries. relatedly keep their markets closed, not only did they recognize they lost the case fair and square but didn't implement them -- but didn't and from the majors required, but they build up their own credit card in the meantime through the use of chutzpah or deception. this is the kind of thing the chinese have been doing in lots of other fields. that is why i wrote the 100 year marathon. i tried to chronicle how the stories began at how clever the chinese are in denying something right to your face. i did not just steal your technology. for how to make an airplane. i look over and say, a looks just like my airplane. you did steal it. they say, take it to the court. this is what is behind the trade

talks with president trump. to get them to have a binding enforcement mechanism. when a ruling goes against them that they violated something they signed, there will be an enforcement procedure. they have to consent to this otherwise it is not going to happen. host: you reference the 100 year marathon. if you want to read more of the fuse on china, that is the book cover. we will go to columbus, ohio next. danny, hello. caller: hello. i wanted to comment on the protest in hong kong. i am -- i wonder if you are guest would agree that -- i am somewhat impressed with the discipline. of the -- demonstrations at that level here in this country, i am afraid they would be dead demonstrators.

that -- or i think that the most important foreign policy -- i am 65. handle our we relations with china. how'd like to get your input. birth i agree with you on of your ups -- on both of your observations. see, iforwards as we can wrote the book about the 100 year marathon. it is up until 2049. i was in hong kong four nights. i agree with you. throughout asia, the hong kong police force is admired for their discipline and training. there is about 30,000 of them. trainedn percentage is in how to handle demonstrators. what to do.

they are not shooting people with machine guns. teargase beanbags and and so forth. the police are also somewhat ambivalent because a lot of them agree with what the demonstrators are protesting. there was an agreement in 1984 between the british and chinese. it did not involve hong kong. later on passed into law by china. it is the constitution of hong kong. they both say the same thing. ,he hong kong social system economic system, the rule of law, all of this will remain as it is for at least 50 more years until 2047. that has been eroding. the communist party has a unit in hong kong. the leader of hong kong is not chosen by the direct election. it is an indirect election. she is not a communist party member. she must be and is a member -- a resident who grew up in hong

kong. they have autonomy, but they often call the higher form of autonomy. it is still somewhat vague. the demonstrators are concerned -- especially about the extradition law -- that china will weaken the autonomy. that the chinese government itself agreed to. it was a colony. it has never been free and independent as a country. to go from a british colony to a chinese colony was not quite what the agreement says. it had all these safeguards. they are still largely in tack -- in tact. the chinese government itself says peaceful demonstrations are ok as long as you get a permit. you can have a big -- you can have as big a demonstration as you want. the police are there to try to keep the violence from happening at all. not to get involved in a civil war on the streets of hong kong.

so far, it has been quite disciplined. host: with that in mind, what did you make of the back-and-forth between the national basketball association and china over the comments made by the houston rockets management? matteri thought the nba is an example of how powerful china has become with most people, including nba and coaches. not appreciating how this has happened. this is not panama or costa rica where you can just say whatever you want and nothing will happen to nba games. china can destroy the nba. it has already done some warning signs. stopped the preseason coverage. the nba has already been discussed in several newspapers. they had a plan that the majority of the revenue in the future -- the majority of the

profits would come from china. american bankable is extremely popular in china. -- american basketball is extremely popular in china. nba executives in terms of counting their money, they are realizing that if somebody tweets something that angers china -- something that is very innocent. we should stand with hong kong. just taking the tweet down was not enough. now, the nba faces a what other american companies are going to face in the future. a superpower saying, you hurt my feelings. i am going to make you bankrupt. sees bank, i am going to close c-span because of something pedro says. pedro says, i take it back. i did not mean to say china is a dictatorship. i meant to say it is well-managed. we don't care. we went pedro fired. we want c-span closed. we want the existence of c-span to be taken away forever. cool tvl tend to

interview hosts from offending china. that is just what they want. the nba case is nationally known now to americans because everybody cares about basketball and the nba and our stars. they are beginning to realize, this is not just panama and costa rica. guest: this is michael pillsbury joining us. stephen is in indiana on the democrats line. caller: good morning, gentlemen. us americans are fortunate to have somebody as intelligent as you are, sir, helping out president trump. guest: you are praising me or pedro? caller: who is pedro? guest: right here. host: go ahead with your question or comment. experience ins politics, no other republican or democrat would try this. this is the only thing he has done that i cannot argue with.

another thing -- guest: the china trade talks. caller: the tariffs is what i am referring to. i do not care about the biden stuff and the basketball stuff. this is what they should be about. the farmers losing money is the biggest challenge without a doubt. these tariffs are taxes. republicans doing taxes, oh, mercy. is when heot like says, all the money we are making. this is a big challenge. this.ot argue with it is tough. host: thanks jane guest: just at -- host: thanks. guest: just to add, the tariffs are attached. they produce revenue. the exact figure is not available. sometimes the president has said $60 billion has been given to

the u.s. treasury through the tariffs that have been imposed. recycleffs are a way to money to farmers and other parts of our country to try to reduce the pain we are inflicting on ourselves through this. i do not see any other way. the chinese would not come to the table before the tariffs were put on. thingsve agreed to some in this 150 page agreement. one can still be optimistic. i agree it is very unusual, republicans wanting to raise taxes like this. republicans was alexander hamilton who had much higher tariffs than what president trump doing. the president has room for escalation. twitteris is steve from asking you about the transpacific partnership and whether the u.s. should have entered. down, it you break it

had a lot of present -- a lot of provisions that the president is now applying. in the u.s.-japan trade agreement that was recently agreed to. protect the labor force, the environment, that of provisions. what the president said during the campaign, we can get a better deal and a bilateral trade agreements but also take some of the ideas from the transpacific partnership text and put them into these bilateral agreements. overall, it is a better deal with each agreement. one thing president trump is working on now is one of these asde agreements with britain brexit takes place through the whole concept can be take -- can be kept alive. election,during the after president trump began to attack tpp as a bad deal, i noticed hillary clinton pulled

her support for it as well. tpp is not popular with our labor unions even though it has some things that protect workers for a variety of reasons. tpp is a concept i think is dead. i is dead. concept, -- i think is dead. line -- ondependent our independent line from california. caller: thank you for taking my call. i just learned, and i do not know how true it is, but my question for michael pillsbury is, who was president at the -- at the timeed in our united states that decided to give the money plates to china? that kind of bothers me because they are not going to be hurting

for anything. i will take my call on the tv. thank you. terms of financing china, it all began under president nixon and president ford. for a long time, the chinese would not take any foreign investment or loans from foreign countries. that changed after the bow -- after mao died in 1976. our banks begin to give loans to china and ultimately, massive. hundreds of billions of dollars went in private equity to china to fund private equities. the largest issue right now is there is apparently $1.2 trillion worth of stocks that chinese companies -- about 150 chinese companies according to the china commission here in the same building -- ledger 50 chinese companies are on them --

150 chinese companies are on the nasdaq and uric stock exchange. they are audited -- and new york stock exchange. they are audited. china says these are not going to be turned over to the stock exchange. every other country and our american companies have to do this. if i audit a c-span company and there is a problem, it has to be to disclosed -- it has to be disclosed. there has been a weaver granted in 2013 under president obama that the sec does not require chinese companies. they objected. they said it is a state secret. we cannot tell auditing problems of our companies to the sec. they gave a waiver. $1.2 trillion worth of chinese companies being funded for activities in china to grow

china stronger is not being by what was supposed to be a temporary waiver. it is already six years. one of the options president trump has -- he could end the chinesend say, all companies, the 1.2 trillion capital have to be audited. the audits made public just like any other company in the world. if he does that, you can imagine the price of these chinese stocks might go down, especially the ones that might have auditing problems. theight cause damage to chinese economy. this is one option president trump has. host: the u.s. office of trade representatives tells us for goods and services, trade with china was $37 billion exports and 557 billion -- this is michael from cedar rapids texting us, talking about

trade imbalances and if that is a problem. guest: economists differ on this. a lot of economists say a trade deficit does not matter. this kind of thing can be balanced out naturally over time chain -- over time. president trump and his economists do not agree. they see the trade deficit as the -- as causing damage to american jobs. the president has put pressure on the chinese to buy american products. that is about 500 billion. this is what we are selling to them to get them to buy more american products. that is where their tariffs get in the way. the prices of american cars are driven sky high because of the tariffs. talks,he core of the trying to rebalance the trade deficit. the president has written about this long before he was

president. in the year 2000, he published a book called the america we deserve. discussion of china, the trade deficit, and iteris. what he would do if he were president. democrats the lampshade -- on the democrats line. caller: i understand both parties came to the idea they could trade with china and somehow by trading with china, they could bring about democratic china. i think it is completely opposite of what they thought was going to happen. now, they feel they are in a boat that is thinking because if they poke more holes into it, they are going to go down with it. somehow, our future in trading and getting ahead is linked to china. be -- i do not care

what corporations who are talking, and ba, agriculture, or check -- they have to stick with this. the chinese government is an authoritarian, communist party. it is probably moving towards a national socialism model. you -- how does america think they can get a fair shake is what i'm saying. thank you for taking my call. guest: that is why i wrote the book, the 100 year marathon. i'm trying to expose what the strategy is and has been since the 1950's. one thing the american government can do is what president trump has begun. the mandatory trade talks, the tariffs. there is a little-known law. it created the entity list.

it is not clear exactly how you can put a company on the entity list. usually, it is for national security. a couple of days ago, it was for human rights inside china. the president has the power to place individual chinese companies on the entity list. under the law, u.s. companies cannot sell high-tech equipment to any company on the list. while way is on the -- huawei is on the list. a company that builds nuclear reactors. they have been put on the list. one by one, these chinese companies that china is very proud of -- these 120 companies in china: national championship -- national champions. nationalna called champions. can be presented to the national champion.

those national champions as they are moved to the entity list, it cuts back their profit and their success and their global market share because they cannot buy components from us, especially in the high-tech area like chips. to slow thegned chinese down until they are more fair in their reciprocal relations. host: republican line. james is next up in connecticut. caller: thank you very much. toquestion to you relates the negotiations with china. obviously, china watches are political process and sees that only two years into president trump's term, we have both our national media and the democratic candidates claiming -- that terrorists are

the tariffs are too difficult for the farmers. i wonder if you have seen in chinese literature, a preference from china for the democratic candidates coming into power in the next election as a weaker opponent in the negotiation. guest: that is a very interesting question. chineseead such materials examining the various candidates. in a way, bernie sanders and elizabeth warren are very scary to the chinese. bernie sanders was almost teasing president trump last couple of years that president trump had promised on his first day in of his that he would declare china a currency manipulator, which has very negative consequences in terms of punishment for china. president trump did not do that. he did a recently after two years.

amnie repeatedly said when i president, i will declare china a currency manipulator. elizabeth warren has a trade plant that has echoes of the trade union leadership should that does want to take a tougher stance on china. both of those candidates are quite scary. some of the other candidates have also said things that are harsh about china having a violation of human rights. joe biden might be better for china. the irony to me is in 2016 they clearly preferred president trump. they had articles about how he was a businessman. he would be less ideological. he would not bring up human rights. he would make a good deal for china. china welcomed him in the beginning. after the trade talks have been so tough, their love for president trump has gone down. they still respect him and

nervously. in some sense, they are afraid of his negotiating powers and have repeatedly written about president trump, if we make it a session -- a concession in the trade talks. you can buy the art of the deal in chinese in all of their bookstores. lighthizerbert negotiates on these -- what faces him as he negotiates? the firstwas one of to oppose the chinese entry into the world organization. in some of his public testimony recently, he has even teased nancy pelosi by reminding her she had the same view. she voted against china being given most favored nation treatment and joining the world trade organization. that is when experience. ambassador lighthizer is one of the first to see the problem of

fair trade from china and to believe they would never adhere to their wto agreement. he also had of -- has a lot of experience with japan. attorney,trade ambassador lighthizer knows the kind of language the japanese agreed to and that he was the chinese to agree to. that the text itself will be legally binding. will not something like, i -- promising something like, i will never see her i would never steal american intellectual property again. wamtsador lighthizer legally binding language. that is the sticking point with the chinese. we have studied success with japan. -- they have studied his success

with japan. every now and then, you will see a newspaper article warning that what lighthizer did to japan, he is not going to do that to us. you can get an atmospheric feel for the chinese negativity as they go into these talks. ambassador lighthizer as a great gift. he is able to show the chinese, this is good for you if you agree to these terms. host: this is from new york. democrats line. caller: good morning. i have a question. what if every single american just, one day out of every month said, i am not going to buy anything made in china. what that have some kind of itact in at least bringing to our minds just how much we buy? what you think would have been? guest: it is an interesting idea

because one problem the president faces, even though nancy pelosi supports the tariffs, senator chuck schumer has criticized the president for not putting the tariffs on sooner even though he has bipartisan support. the public at large is still working with an old image that china is poor, backward, is kind of a charity case. that we have an obligation as a wealthy country. we need to help this poor, backward china. if you're talking about a one day a month boycott of chinese products, it would have an impact not only on china but on public recognition that your dealing -- that we are dealing with a strong power. one of the phrases trump has used several times, he says china's ambition is to surpass us. it is not going to happen on my watch.

host: one more call from gainesville, virginia. we will hear from john should caller: thank you -- from john. caller: thank you for taking my call. forgive my ignorance. do you feel that the south china sea dispute will have any influence on the trade talks? --nk you for taking michael for taking my call. guest: it does have an obvious impact in the sense of whether china keeps it word when there is no binding enforcement mechanism. to filipinos took the case what amounts to the world court. the chinese lost. the judges found china had no legal claim to the whole south china sea. instead of abiding by that, china said, we did not participate in the process although they actually had participated, therefore, it does

not apply. of thes in violation u.n. ruling, but it had no enforcement mechanism. the trade talks have to have an enforcement mechanism. the other part of the south china sea that is worth mentioning -- they promised president obama -- it was president xi jinping standing next to obama in the rose garden in a public press conference. the translation came through, i will not militarize the south china sea, which to us, i will not put missiles or jet fighters or fly bombers out there. within a few years, they have done all of those things. that agreement with president obama was nonbinding. it was not written down. it was a vocal promise. they, in our view, violated it. the lesson seems to be, chinese expressions of their aspirations and hopes are not going to get

the job done. host: michael pose berry of >> washington journal mugs are available in c-span's new online store. and check outtore the washington journal mugs and seal of the c-span products. -- see all of the c-span products. c-span's campaign 2020 coverage continues as president trump posts a keep america great rally in minneapolis. live tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span. c-span.org andn listen wherever you are using the free c-span radio app. before departing for minneapolis, president trump spoke to reporters on the south lawn of the white house.