project. then later, remarks from kevin mccarthy. he was the keynote speaker at the silver elephant gala fundraiser. afterwards, janet yellen on the economy. susan: kathy kleiman, your new book began with the photograph. we are going to look at that photograph. tell me what it was that intrigued you. kathy: i was in computer science

courses. the early courses mixed men and women, but the upper courses were almost all men, sometimes completely men. this photograph was intriguing because it has men and women in the picture. i thought that is interesting. who are the women? the two in the front -- the visionary of eniac led the construction of building it. who are the women? i wanted to know, because if they did something technical, i wanted to know. i took the photographs to my professor, he sent me to the cofounder of the computer history museum and she told me

they were models. that they were not in the captions because they were just models. i did not think that was right. i went looking for the people in the picture and found them, all six of the original programmers were young women hired by the army during world war ii. susan: what era? kathy: this was taken in january of 1946, about six months after the war, the army decides to reveal the existence eniac of, so they took press pictures. the team got ready for demonstration day in february. most of the poses show the height of the computer, it was eight feet tall, 30 tons, huge machine. they are positioning people around it. susan: what does the name eniac stand for? kathy: electronic integrator and

computer. this was the world's first general-purpose, electronic computer. the first modern computer. it's the grandmother of everything we use today. susan: in your book, you say not only were women missing from i.t. history, but most of it focused on hardware. kathy: i wrote my junior and senior paper on these women. the subtitle was men are hard, women are soft. men seem to be involved in the hardware. there seems to be a missing piece of computer history that had to do with software, and that seemed to be women. i was discovering the tip of the iceberg. there seemed to be dismissing history. susan: before we learn more, tell me about your life and career. how did a progress?

-- how did it progress? kathy: i majored in social and political theory, and took computer science. my mother said study anything you want, but computing is where the jobs are. of course, she was right. i was interested in computers. after college, i went to wall street and help manage on wall street, and i was responsible for making sure data flowed to the new york offices of morgan stanley. that was a lot of fun. i don't know if it was a mistake, but i asked -- i started studying for law school, i went to law school and came out and did telecommunications

law which was wonderful. i came to washington, d.c. in my law firm works with the federal communications division. it was fascinating. in early net -- an early internet dispute came across my desk. it was the electronic frontier, there was nothing there. there were also no women there. i remember calling some eniac programmers that i wanted to go into this field, and they said of course. they were pioneers, supported me. it turns out i was one of the first people and women into internet law and policy. i helped create -- we oversee and manage the global domain name system. it's been a fascinating career.

now, i teach internet technology and governance for lawyers and i try to bring in young men and women to the field of technology policy. susan: your story and the story of eniac's one of not many women in the field. kathy: computing in general is still having problems. we see it all over the place. there is a pipeline problem. kindergarten through 12th grade, it is still boys taking the classes. there are huge groups, wonderful groups that are working to break the stereotypes of men only in computing and encourage girls and anyone who does not fit the traditional stereotype to take the courses, and there are mentorship groups. they want you to finish the program. that is great.

in technology policy, we found that women of the domain name system and try to encourage women in technology policy. there are lots of other initiatives. susan: on the pipeline question. there is an emphasis on stem education. what is it going to take to encourage girls to pursue this course? kathy: it's going to take breaking the stereotypes while they are still reinforced. how do i know that? my own children, my daughter in middle school came home and said i can't do math in computing. she had done well in mathematics before that. what was happening? it's the stereotypes. you don't see women in stem, or

did not at the time on television. maybe that had something to do with it. it's also a stereotype many of us have implicated. we keep re-sharing the same stereotypes. i think it would help to break them and show women in computing who exist. susan: turning to the eniac women. when they went to college, how frequently did women go to college, these women were all math oriented. how unusual was that? kathy: everything was unusual. most of them went to college during the depression. 5% of men went to college at the time. these women are coming from immigrant backgrounds.

they got full scholarships, almost all of them. most of the traditional jobs, mathematicians, accounting, they majored in what they wanted but had support from families. susan: let's learn about the first two of them. kathy: k mcnulty came from ireland when she was three years old. her father was a mason and doing

construction in philadelphia at the time. he brought his family, there is a long story about how they left. susan: did you show an interest in method early age? kathy: math and technology. she fixed and iron when the blood got unplugged. she rode a bicycle through the neighborhood. she said she was the first woman to get her license in the area. she was always doing math. she would go to the corner store

and the women at the store added up -- she could do would fester in her head than she could do on paperback. susan: introduce me to francis. what was her life story? kathy: she was living in a philadelphia suburb. her parents came from eastern europe. susan: both of them graduated in 1942. i was interested in your description of what philadelphia and other cities were like

during the war. the rest of us have never had that in this country. you said the war felt very close to home. can you describe that? kathy: it felt close to home in two ways. everyone knew someone who was going off to war. uncles, brothers and fathers. everyone who was going to the atlantic or pacific. everyone wanted to help, everyone wanted to get involved. summaries are coming closer and closer. i've never experienced this. you had to buy special blinds for your windows. so the lights wouldn't shine onto the streets. street lights were dimmed, this

was making it hard to target the city of philadelphia should somebody be trying to bomb it. susan: the german u-boats were right off the coast of philadelphia. one of the reasons it is so interesting was the philadelphia naval yard. kathy: it was building a lot of ships, had a lot of supplies going in and out. some were requisite in helping building the eniac. susan: when they graduated, the army was running ads in philadelphia newspapers looking specifically for women math majors. why were they looking for women? kathy: because they did not have enough men. they needed someone to calculate trajectories.

it was a different calculus equation created during world war i. if you had a weather unit on the battlefield and plug that in, then you calculated it for 30 or 40 hours, could calculate what angle to aim the gun to hit the target. you never know the stuff ahead of time. all of these had to be precalculated. there were no computers so they hired people. it made a lot of noise.

susan: each calculation would take 30 to 40 hours. the young women were hired on the spot by the army. what was their title, what was their starting salary? kathy: they interviewed, they were not told what they were going to be doing. they would be computing ballistics trajectories. the salary was about $1200 a year, would go up to about $1600. susan: today's dollars? somewhere around $30,000. for college graduates who were hard to find math majors. kathy: believe it or not, much more than a secretary. susan: let's introduce a couple more of the women. betty snyder. kathy: betty, i got to know very

well. she grew up in a suburb of philadelphia. her father and grandfathers were math teachers and astronomy teachers. she went to the university of pennsylvania. she was really disappointed. the classes were not coed, it was a big deal. she loved mathematics. she had an old professor who opened with every class saying women should be home raising children. she found out he was the only professor and became -- she studied journalism, history and english. susan: marilyn joined the group.

kathy: she was already at the university of pennsylvania. she did not major in mathematics. when she was getting close to graduating, the dean of the school said if you were jewish, should not bother to apply. she thought, what do i do? she went over and helped army radar projects at the university of pennsylvania, she was using the adding machine and when that project closed up, he said you should apply to this group of computers down the hall and i think you will get a job. susan: two more. both joined later.

ruth. kathy: she is also a math major, comes down from hunter college. she is the only one who does not graduate college. it's incredible, she leaves after her second year because she wants to help the war effort. she moves from new york city to philadelphia and becomes part of the third floor computing group. susan: the last one was the last to join. i want to get them on the map. jean jennings. kathy: she comes from a farm in missouri. she comes along this way, but had gone to northwest missouri state teachers college. that was about half an hour down the road.

she sees and head, she graduates in december, 1944, is trying to figure out what to do, a mathematics professor shows her a posting that says the army is looking for math majors. she said i'm going to apply for that job in philadelphia. when she is accepted, she hops on a train and comes to philadelphia. she stays in philadelphia for the rest of her life. susan: the computing program was all based at the university of pennsylvania. what was the relationship? kathy: we are talking about the aberdeen proving ground.

northern maryland, very rural and that's where the army has tested artillery including heavy artillery. they tested, this is where the calculations have taken place during world war i. if you are the army and you want to recruit young women, you probably are not going to want to put them into rural maryland. if you want to relocate to philadelphia, the proving ground has radar projects. they are cochairing the space with the school where enrollment has gone down. it makes sense, with physicists and engineers.

it provides more people to work for army projects. susan: you tell the story, at its height, how many young women were working on various projects related to military issues? kathy: 80 to 100 computers and working two shifts a day. susan: you explain because of blackout that they would walk home in total darkness. kathy: the nighttime air warden coming to meet from the trolley. it was pretty dark in the streets. susan: by 1943, you write it was apparent the analyses were not coming us enough. what happened? kathy: there were too many trajectories. the army is introducing major

improvements and new artillery. the army decides to fund this experimental idea, this general-purpose programmable. the army said we are in the dark day of the war. when them to be accurate, we need them for new guns. there is any chance the new technology speeds up the calculations, they will throw the money at it. in spring of 1943, they start building the eniac on the first floor.

by spring of 1945, it's ready to go. susan: what was -- kathy: they wanted men with electronics aptitude. he took a lab or stew introduce people -- course to introduce people. he realized he already taught the course. he sat in the back of the room. he is a lab instructor. they are sitting there and talking about his vision for the modern computer, and is saying i think i can build that.

kathy: susan: the army said yes, began work there in 1943. they called it project x at the time. how aware where the computer women of what was going on behind closed doors? kathy: loose lips sink ships. people do not talk about the projects. they knew there were other projects going on. they were radar experiments going on. project x was behind a closed door down a back hallway on the first floor and they did not go there.

they did not ask questions and knew something was happening. the differential analyzer, this huge come along. she was supervising the team. there was another way of calculating, it's late at night. it is so quiet. you have to come up, see what we have done. there is a big cage over eight feet tall and has these units

and they are wired to each other. lights flash, something happens. they basically said this just did 5000 divisions. that was extraordinary. they are very excited because this is proof of concept. it meant ideas of how it would work in the electronics that would make these calculations had come to fruition. susan: to the importance door and on kay? kathy: she thought we could do that on calculators or an analyzer. she knew something special had happened. she knew she was witness to a historic moment.

the whole team congratulated them but they went back to the basement. susan: next step is a small number were chosen to go to the aberdeen proving grounds to begin to learn how to program this. kathy: let me preface it, the engineers build this huge machine. it's almost complete, then the question is, whatsit it supposed to do? ballistics trajectories. none of them -- dr. hermann goldstein is supervising both projects, decides to take six computers to be the programmers of the ballistics trajectory. he picks six and says are you

amenable to learning something new? they say yes, and the first thing they notice -- there on this big base, outnumbered thousands to one. what they learned their is how to use the ibm card punch and reader. they learned how to use those. they spend the summer, but i find a special as well each one -- while each one knew someone, they become close as a team. they grow to know each other. when they come back to philadelphia and said figure out how to make it do the calculus equation.

the work begins and continues in august of 1945. susan: what happens with the los alamos scientists? kathy: they can't finish and deliver. the eniac was commissioned to do ballistics trajectories, it's just about ready to go, these computers were identified, they will program it. they have been under a lot of pressure. they are told stop.

the atomic bomb is the biggest secret of the war. they learn a little more and come back in august of 1945. the atomic bomb has dropped. they say we need the machine for an important calculation. they bring 100,000 ibm punchcards to run through the calculation that we think is the hydrogen bomb. susan: it had already dropped. kathy: the atomic bomb had dropped. the hydrogen bomb was behind it. eniac becomes, even in its own test mode, starts running tests for the next generation. susan: when did they figure out

what they had been involved in? kathy: years later. susan: they had some idea. kathy: it began to appear in the newspapers. figuring it out was classified. susan: still today? kathy: that is my understanding. susan: when did they get back to the work? kathy: they help in the los alamos project. it's this project with people they get to me. it's the first sunday get to see the machine. they have been locked out. they do not have the security clearance. i would've helped. they did not have interest to the room. when the los alamos problem needed extra people, they

invited the women in and now they get to go to the room. eventually it spins off to the ballistics trajectory program. susan: how complicated was it to program this machine? kathy: it was complicated to figure out how it works. it was complicated. eniac on its face is understandable, and accumulator. there were 20 of them. the multiplier does high-speed multiplication, square root divider.

keeping track of all of it was one of the key new parts. in programming today, we do not have to keep track. women were the operating system. they put a number into the accumulator, they put another number for the card, they have to keep track of this. keep track not just of every logical step, but were every number and program pulse is. susan: you told us it took them

30,000 to 40,000 hours to finish one of these equations. how quickly could it do the same amount of work? kathy: 30 or 40 hours to do one of them. susan: sorry. how quickly could eniac to it? kathy: seconds, under 20 seconds. susan: how quickly did they realize it was going to do that? kathy: they realized it that night. how many vacuum tubes? 18,000. susan: you explain the women got so good in understanding this machine. kathy: it might help to layout.

they go in, plugging it in, and then have to debug it. it turns out it's not just logical, they had to do hardware debugging. the program stopped working. they use software to figure out, this enormous machine, the vacuum tube had blown. that got the women up to program debugging. susan: you write that betty and

jean understood eniac was too slow to find acceptance of aberdeen, and they decided to think through parallel calculations. kathy: they want to speed up the ballistics trajectory, they know speed is going to matter, how many seconds the calculation takes is going to matter. one calculation at a time. they could have and accumulator working, high-speed, all at the same time. betty, a great programming pioneer went on to 40 years at

the cutting edge of computing said parallel programming was the hardest thing she ever did. susan: went to the army say yes, we accept this? kathy: demonstration day is 1946, and the army probably has excepted it by then. it's not secret anymore, they invite technologists and scientists from across the east coast, people come down from new york. they come to demonstration day. the big moment is when the lights go out and the ballistics trajectory is run, arthur burks announces it would be faster

than a missile leaving the muzzle of a gun to hit a target. i assume by then the army had accepted it. susan: what is the role of the women that they? kathy: one of the beauties of eniac's you could set up a program, and if it works, you just press the button. you did not have to intervene. they are in the room, some of them are teaching code, some are doing printouts, they are in the back of the room watching everything. susan: you said a number of people left confused about what

they have seen. tell me the story between february and what happened the night of the celebratory dinner, am i getting the story off? there are two events. the differences between the first and the big public event is the army knew they needed the women involved, is that correct? kathy: there was an earlier event on february 1 for reporters and journalists. they came in, were invited to come in and see the eniac, watching it run. the problem used were square

roots and did not seem to capture the imagination. the journalists did not have a wow factor. they left with good details. by the time they got to having the senior army people there two weeks later, they wanted that while factor. that is when they brought the women back. susan: the february 15, the big demonstration, people then new the world had changed. kathy: the women were not there, so i do not have a firsthand account. the national academy of sciences was there. captain hermann goldstein.

the engineers were there. all of the guests were there. it was a big celebration. beautiful dinner. they talked about the world changing, new technologies, the army partnership with the university of pennsylvania. they did not have individual contributions. susan: the army funding of eniac change the world. how much did they invest overall? kathy: the initial contract was $200,000. it would increase once or twice. half $1 million overall. about $7 million. susan: $7 million to change the world. the other thing that was interesting was the army gave

them the rights to this computer. was that common at the time that inventors have their own rights? kathy: it is common, the army urged them to apply for patents. the army, not just the army, they fund a lot of basic research in the united states. we want these technologies to go out and be used. unless it's really secret, sell

it to the public. in this case, there were other people indenting -- inventing, and the army said get that patent in. the army retained ownership of eniac. the army kept nonexclusive rights. they went on to create a commercial industry in the united states. the army succeeded brilliantly in getting what it wanted and changing the world. susan: kathy: it's not even two months after, doesn't really know them,

he says sign over the patents. they say no. two weeks later, they hand them letters of resignation. they have to leave. susan: the war is over, eniac proves itself. kathy: the army is smart enough not to send them home. the war is over six months in february. by that time, the government is running campaigns to give jobs. leave the factories, leave the farms, give these jobs back to the men. i know the women did not want to leave hollywood who were recruited there.

who else knows how to program eniac that is available? the army says, please stay. you are committed to staying when you first come on the project. women are happy to do it. in spring and summer of 1945, eniac is still at the school. the army opens it up and wants to know how far it can go. what is programming? they invite in world-class mathematicians who have hundred year projects, meth magical -- mathematical problems. at the time, there was an idea everyone would learn to program, and these mathematicians would walk in and take one look at the

machine with hundreds of wires, professional programming is born. they want to bring it down to aberdeen. they relocated down to there. susan: what is the process of moving something that large? what condition did it arrive in? kathy: i wish we knew more. it did not arrive in very good condition. it took about six months to get it operational again at its new home.

kay and ruth were an intricate part of that process of rewiring, establishing it. susan: before we get into the rest of their lives, encapsulate for me what the contributions were two internet history. computing history. kathy: let me add they would go on to incredible careers. susan: what they did their intrigue you. kathy: they are modern programming pioneers. they figured out what the army had, deliver working ballistics. working on a machine that had fewer than 10 words of memory.

i can figure out how they did that. i think they were geniuses right from the beginning. they became committed to making programming more accessible. susan: how many stated professionally -- stayed professionally in the industry? kathy: four of them went to aberdeen. they were involved for years. kay married and would stay there involved with computing for the rest of her life. they would program and help create the tools and foundation for the computers to come. susan: let's return to you and the eniac six.

you are a student, finding this photograph, wanting to know more. what was the path that led you to meeting these women? kathy: i have been told they were models and i should leave the story alone. i kept looking at these pictures and i found more pictures, there are number of pictures. the university of pennsylvania has a collection where you can see beautiful pictures. there is something here. i started calling around the university of pennsylvania, professors, finally i reached a professor who was retired but still had an office there. i spilled the story of these women and he paused and said i

think you are onto something. when i was an undergraduate here, there were no -- he told me there were no women, but yet it was the war and there were women working on -- throughout the school doing projects, summer computers, he thought they were also working on the eniac project. he told me the anniversary of his coming out. but i like a ticket? i came down from boston. there is one more piece of information. on one page, captain hermann goldstein wrote about hiring six computers to program eniac and he names them. when i went to the anniversary, i met most of the women on the list.

they confirmed they were the women in the pictures. susan: did you develop relationships? kathy: yes. it was 10 years later i became close to them. i wrote my junior paper, my senior thesis. i figured someone in the community would tell this incredible story. they were the ones trained to do it. i went off to wall street and was programming computers, law school, i was a junior associate when a bell went off in my head, the 50th anniversary of eniac has to be coming up. i called around, i got to the dean. big deal. huge celebration. when i named these women, only two of them were invited. nobody knew who they were what they had done.

eddie and kay were invited. holster ore -- the whole story appeared to be completely lost. i thought, we need to do something about this. i look them up, make sure they were invited. four came to the reunion, we had an incredible time, after that i said we have to figure out how to record the stories. i did not know anything about recording. my law firm at people who knew producers. they introduced me to an award-winning producer and thought it was important. we got funding for the documentary. susan: this is been a two-step process.

it came out in 2014. the book this year. we have a brief clip. let's watch this. [video clip] >> you could put in one set of weather conditions for one gun and one vessel, calculate the trajectory and figure out what angle to shoot the gun. >> it's a complicated equation that has to be solved for each data point you want to compute. >> you women, you are the ones who can give our boys what they need. >> that was massive and unrelenting. >> we had big sheets. in those days, sophisticated calculators and we did the tables. >> the filing table would go to the gun officer.

what angle they would have to set the gun. it would go 500 yards. susan: that documentary is available. kathy: on some women of computing is three documentary shorts with the computers being the first, women created java and flash, we talk about them. young women involved in digital recognition. if you go to my website, there are links. it's a 20 minute documentary short. we show it all around the country and world. classes, stem events, anyone who wants to show it. susan: there is a computer history hall of fame. did any make it in? kathy: yes.

i nominated jean jennings. i wasn't sure if they paid attention to my application. a few months later, i got a call that they were going to california. we went to an incredible black-tie reception and she became a fellow of the computer history museum. it was incredible. susan: having gotten to know these women over your work, what was their view on the lack of recognition they had? kathy: the first thing they do is not tell you the story. sometimes it takes decades.

i knew over world war ii veteran that took us 50 years to tell us he was in a concentration camp. there is a modesty about the greatest generation. these women went on to live these incredible lives, they all married, had families. some talk about raising families. they were so proud. they shared their stories, but they did not feel any need to share it with the rest of the world. so they did not, and nobody really knew except their families. when i found them and they started talking about it, they kept going. kay and jean went to microsoft. they went to the university of pennsylvania. betty traveled.

they were all inducted into the hall of fame of women and technology. they were not angry about anything. they were proud of what they had done and excited to tell the story. when they found out the story was inspirational to others. susan: your work over the decades enriched their lives, they got more involved. what did finding that photograph and all that has come from that do for your life? kathy: enriched it immeasurably. they became my role models, mentors and vans. they opened the door for me so

when it was early internet policy, it was hard. it was very hard to do, be the only woman in the room. i often thought about them. there are women pioneers across early computing history, so they helped create the wonderful career i have been able to have. susan: the name of your book. "proving ground, the own told story of six women who programmed the first modern computer." thank you for spending an hour with me. kathy: thank you so much. ♪ >> all q and a programs are available on our website, or as a podcast on our c-span now

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>> minority leader kevin mccarthy spoke to the silver elephant gala fundraiser held by the south carolina gop. as the keynote speaker, he urged them to elect republicans doing the 2022 midterms and also talked about china's possible invasion of taiwan. he was introduced by south carolina senator tim scott. [applause] >> hello, south carolina! it's good to be home. thank god for south carolina. thank y'all so much. let me say to every single grassroots volunteer who makes our nation red to the root, thank you. it's not the elected officials that make south carolina great, it is the people, every single day, who