>> this morning we are here to discuss the president's fiscal year 2025 budget request. i thank chief randy moore and the budget director mark licken stein for being with us this morning. thank you both. i look forward to hearing about the justification for the 6.5% increase requested over fiscal year 2024 enacted appropriations. although may would normally be just the start of the fire season, we have had record breaking wildfires as is becoming all too often. in february, wile it was still snowing, over one million acres in texas burned. killing two people and destroying 130 homes. all signs point to a very active fire year in the u.s. i know my colleagues from

western states are on pins and needles watching the next ignition that could devastate their communities. our committee has considered several bills that would support and improve wildfire response network from increasing the use of technology for wildfire detection to integrating the local communities, loggers, and volunteer firefighters into wildfire suppression efforts on federal land. in the meantime, congress has tried to adjust this problem at the source by investing heavily in hazard joust fuels reduction. the forest service has been given about $12 billion on top of your annual appropriations. now that we are a few years into those laws, today is a good opportunity to take a stock of how the forest service is implementing those investments as well as the proposed budget for fiscal year 2025. as i mentioned the bipartisan infrastructure law and the i.r.a. will add a significant

extra boost to the forest service budget, around 30% extra forest management each year, to be honest, chief moore, i am frustrated how little these extra investments have moved the needle on the agency's performance metrics. i do appreciate last year was a banner year for the forest service in terms of acres treated. more than 4.3 million acres. thus a million acres more than the previous year and sets an agency record. some of your performance and metrics were less encouraging. your timber target for last year was 3.4 billion board feet. you missed that by about 260 million. you had a target of 16 improved water sheds. you only managed six. you told us before that it takes time to develop these projects and we should be patient. instead of continuing to ramp up in treatments, however, the agency's target is going down over the next two years. so one of the issues i hope we'll explore today is why the

extorque funding provided by those two bills aren't translating better into on the ground action. a rash of sawmill closures this year, including in my own home state of west virginia. i knew wood product markets has been volatile since the pandemic. we heard a number of reports that long-standing sawmills are simply running out of nearby material and need to haul logs in from further and further away, which significantly cuts into their already thin margins. more consistent are libel official from local federal forest would help these struggling operators. what's also concerning to me about these closures is that the forest service's wildfire crisis strategy is fundamentally dependent on a robust network of mills that can process the material from our nation's forests. as we heard at our hearing with the wildfire commission, revenue generating timber harvests are critical to pay for more complex treatments proscribe fire

reforest taeugs. if done right it can provide a return to the federal taxpayer, and support our critical stray partners. the forest service has used innovative models in the past. last year the agency piloted a timber transport project to salvage burned timber in california and ship it to struggling sawmills in wyoming. that makes all the sense in the world. we shouldn't just be lugging salvaging timber rot. i have said this so many times in hearings. in the long term congress can help develop markets for the small diameter timber. in fact several of the provisions in a bill introduced with ranking member barrasso, the america's revenge taeugs sequestration act would do just that. however we is cannot afford to lose all our existing mill infrastructure while that market tkpwre grohs. i hope we'll hear how the forest service expands on efforts like the timber transport project.

lastly, i know that the fire and forestry often get the lion share of attention. but i also want to highlight the tremendous role that our national forest plays when it comes to outdoor recreation economy. last year the 159 million visitors to forest service lands generated billions in economic activity and supported nearly 180,000 jobs. unfortunately, the forest service has a deferred maintenance lackback log of more than $7 billion. including $5 billion in maintenance just for the roads alone. this should concern all of us. the roads don't just provide access to our recreation lands, but are vital arteries for rural communities. perhaps more concerning a road in poor condition threatens our ability to deploy firefighters where they are needed and stop a wildfire before it grows to catastrophic size. as we approach the expiration of the mandatory funding for facilities maintenance we provide in the great american outdoors act, it's worth asking,

what changes could be made to better add dress the next set of hurdles facing the forest service? chief moore, thank you again for being here today. i think i speak for all of us when i say that we don't just want you to succeed, we need you to succeed. i look forward to hearing your perspective on these issues and your plans for the year ahead. and with that i'll turn to ranking member, my friend, senator barrasso, for opening same. senator barrasso: thanks for holding this hearing. i share your concerns, historic investments, failure to meet the targets. that's what you pointed out. that's what people on both sides of the aisle have continued to point out year after year. wyoming's forest, including our eight national forieses, help sustain our way of life, support our local communities. is it the case across the west our forests face many challenges including wildfire, drought, insect and disease outbreaks, pressures as you mentioned mr. chairman from the sawmill closures. in 1976, wyoming sawmills could

process over 300 million board feet each year. forests were healthy. forests were productive. according to the forest service as latest statistics, wyoming sawmills can now process 100 million board feet. so that goes from 300 million down to 100 million. that's a 2/3 drop in our capacity. now the health of our national forests in wyoming is poor. the wildfire risk is high. and we don't make things better in a way to manage our national forest, the risks will keep growing. things will get worse. i look forward to hearing how the forest service intends to hit the targets to address these critical challenges. i'm pleased with. so priorities in the budget. funding to protect our communities from catastrophic fire. also pay raise for our wildland firefighters. i do have concerns about the budget because for years the forest service has asked congress for more and more money. we heard it from both sides of the aisle. that money has been granted. congress has responded by giving the agency billions of dollars

in additional taxpayer funds. since 2021, congress has given the agency more than $40 billion, with a b, $40 billion. yet the forest service has not treated more acres. it's not sold more timber. it's not expedited the environmental review process forest management projects. mr. chairman, the question continues, where have all these taxpayer dollars gone? i acknowledge the forest service faces enormous challenges as it combats wildfires. yet despite having more money than ever, the agency has not done the work on the ground to address the crisis. in fact, the agency expects to treat fewer acres than it did last year, this year. for the timber harvest levels to remain flat in fiscal year 2025. this is completely unacceptable. in wyoming, sustainable timber harvests support our local communities. they reduce wildfire risk. they improve forest health. year after year we find

ourselves in the same situation. inconsistent log supplies from the national forests undermine our local sawmills. without a defendable and -- dependable and affordable supply of timber from our public lands, these family-owned businesses cannot survive. we know it all too well in wyoming. just last month a family business based in wyoming had to announce layoffs. they hated doing it. a direct result of the forest service's decision to reduce timber harvest levels in the black hills national forest. they have upended the lives of 50 hardworking employees and their families. jeopardized jobs at nearby wood product facilities, and put at risk the health of the black hills national forest. the decision to reduce the timber sale program on the black hills will reverse years of progress. without active management, that forest is going to return to the same condition that resulted in the wildfires and the beetle

kill. this is what we are trying to avoid. the forest service seems indifferent to the consequences of their own inaction. there's broad agreement on this committee that the forest service is not meeting the challenges it confronts. the forest service no longer safeguards and promote forest health. it's now just managing the deterioration of our national forests. the forest service must change course. must start managing our forest in a serious and credible way. we know what works, we know what we need to do. the forest product sector is willing to help get the work done. thank you, mr. chairman. chairman chin: we start with questions. >> chairman chin, ranking member barrasso, members of the committee. chief moore: thank you for inviting me to testify today. we are grateful for your continued support. the president's budget names three primary goals for us, to

modernize wildland fire management. sustain investments critical to our mission. and equitable accession and benefits to america. today i'll share our progress as we put money to work to confront serious challenges. i'll share how our work will continue to be a sound investment. we directly steward 193 million ericks of national forest system lands. we reach across boundaries to assist states, tribes, and communities, as well as private landowners to keep millions of forested achers healthy and productive. every american benefits from these forests directly or indirectly. together these lands provide basic needs for life, clean air and water, and while they contribute to the energy production and support the local economies. national forests alone contribute more than 410,000 jobs and 44.3 billion to the gross domestic product. to sustain productivity and health, the forest must be able

to withstand threats posed by wildfires, climate change, drought, insects, and disease. we invested resources to act and to ensure that we do just that. foremost we prioritize work to reduce wildfire risk, safeguard communities, and create resilient forrests. in 2022 we launch add 10-year wildfire crisis strategy and we have moved to implement it. annual appropriations coupled with the historic bipartisan infrastructure law and inflation reduction act provided us an extraordinary opportunity to take bold and strategic actions. we did just that. we progressed to deliver on a promise to increase the pace and scale of our treatments. we are not just treating any acre, we are treating the right acres in the right places and at the right scale. we focused initial efforts on 21 priority landscapes within western fire chance at the highest risk. they account for roughly 80% of wildfire risk.

these investments are paying dividends. experts report that roughly $700 billion worth of housing and infrastructure are at risk within these priority landscapes. and this includes $6.5 billion of municipal water sheds, which supply drinking water to 12 million people. in the last two years we reduced the average wildfire risk to these assets by 8%. we reduced the risk for infrastructure by 8% for housing. and then we also reduced the risk to water sheds by 12%. what does that mean? it means that more than 1$175 million worth of homes were at risk. and in the national forest 17 communities are at lower risk, including the towns of cold springs and strawberry. a million socially vulnerable people are at less risk. nearly half of the nation's forestlands are now considered unlikely to burn at high intensity. we

we must invest in our firefighters. we recognize the urgency of pay increase to provide a more liveable wage enhance recruitment and stabilize retention and provide better care for firefighters physical and mental health and look forward to seeing an end of report of firefighters link in cars with limited health care. in addition to address the wildfire crisis, we continue to take action. visitor, use, hunting and fishing, energy development, forest product and live stock grazing generate 69% of contributions to the economy. thanks we relieved pressure maintenance backlog. the budget request to maintain

critical recreation services offering opportunities. we are making a difference in our urban environment. the forest service and partners are maintaining trees where 84% of americans live. trees combat extreme heat and climate change and improves access to nature. the 2025 budget returns basic funding to most programs. this includes forest products that are vital. this includes sustainable timber supplies and it is part of a complex market-driven system. we can support industry through forest products and wood generation. while the current industry adapts the industry has taken strides to support the existing industry by investing $80

million and manufacturing facilities. extended wood baskets and timber transport program. authorizing extensions to timber sales contracts to provide relief of the decline for demand for the paper products. in closing, we are committed to meeting the callings before us with resources congress has provided and people of america deserve nothing less and put the money to work for the benefit of all. we increased our work force by

4,000. we lost 40% of nonfire work force over the last 20 years. >> how many in areas you beefed up that was needed? mr. moore: we had to bring in a new skill set to complement the skill sets that we have and looked at the trends and working with partners and working with communities. we needed to add to our skill set people who know how to bring people to the table to facilitate and convene meetings because what we want to do is share the decision space with local communities. we had to invest in skill sets. >> how much is going to bonuses for present employees and people you have on staff? much of that percentage of the money you receive go for that or hiring new people? mr. moore: no, we provide

bonuses at the end of the year. it was nothing extra. >> if you could give us breakdown how floiees are contributing. it would be helpful. second thing since 2020, the national forest system lands in need of reforestation has increased by 260%. yet the forest service that only 6% of post-wildfire planning. and -- mr. moore: i'm going to say thanks to congress for the replants act because it has given us to lift the cap on reforesttation here. >> are my figures wrong? mr. moore: i wouldn't argue with your figures. >> pretty poor performance as far as getting up to speed.

mr. moore: may i respond. [indiscernible] mr. moore: for context, you know prior to the replant act we had a cap of $30 million of and the problem we have had every year the number of acres burned has been increasing, on average you are adding 500,000 acres per year and only been able to treat between 100, 200,000 acres. >> basically salvaging the burnt timber that still has value to it. why are we not able to do that? mr. moore: excellent question. and really complex answer.

multiple reasons that contribute to this. one is that -- when we try and have large timber sale projects to recoupe, many times we get litigated on that. and even -- >> why would they litigate because you can reforest and cut at the same time. mr. moore: with our democratic process and we are a public agency, 300 million -- >> someone is upset. mr. moore: as we go through the litigation to defend what we want to do, winning is not the answer. they begin to lose value so that they are not worth purchasing after a period of time and dependent on where you are and reduces the value of the wood, the challenge we have is that

how do we remove that timber in a quick way. so our approach has been to take small pieces of that and do what we can to remove the timber while it has value. >> 25 mills have shut down including in my home state. i am concerned about the impact on rural communities and carrying out the forest management goals. what authorities do you have to ensure consistent supply of federal timber and give these saw mills -- [indiscernible] mr. moore: we have been working with the saw mills and over the years, we invested 79 million to saw mills to help them transition while this is going on in our country. >> the way they transition is

have access -- >> market driven conditions they are responding to which has an impact on whether they are interested in a lot of the timber sales in national forest. when you look at the economy, it's moving away from paper products and has a negative impact on the mills that produce that. low-value type material, most of our facilities use logs. what we want to do is help and work with industry to transition to have a portfolio if you will and look at some of the products, biofuel these are the types of technology that is emerging but our infrastructure is not set up to use that type of material in he abundance and trying to work with industry to transition. and i think you are going to see interesting things come from

industry sometime this summer. >> 63 million acres of our national forest are at high risk of wildfire right now. past year agency treated fewer four million of 63 million acres. your agency plans to treat even less than that. 63 million last time four million and now less than that with a budget more and more money. at this declining rate it will take two decades to treat the high risk areas within our national forests today because trees are going to continue to grow. is this a credible strategy with the money that has moved to the forest service to address this crisis that congress is behind the efforts financially commit to help get done? mr. moore: we are at a cross

roads in this country and a part of that is for the last 100 years we measured our performance on acres treated and i think what the strategy has given us is that the right metric performance. when you look at how this country has changed, the number one land use in this country is wildland-urban interface development. you have a lot of communities that are sitting adjacent to the national forests. so we have to ask ourselves and i would love to dig deeper in this with you and this committee, what is the appropriate is it acres treated or right acres treated and if our job protects our communities from wildfires, we have to look at the combination of two. so the outcome would be that did

we protect this community from the risk of fires? >> and to me this is a complete lack of urgency by your department in dealing with all of this. if you don't like the result then you change the metrics. that's ridiculous. we don't like the results. we had a hearing in washington state. it doesn't seem to be improving or better at all in spite of massive additional expenditure of taxpayer money. to say we are going to change the metric is absolutely ridiculous. there was layoffs at spear fish forest products facility. the owner did everything possible to avoid the layoffs. they are the result of timber sale for the black hills national forest. what is the agency doing to help retain the infrastructure in the

black hills? mr. moore: we invested 79 million specifically to saw mills and worked with him and his facility. when we look at the timber transport authority it originated in order to help him. so we moved timber from northern california to wyoming to this facility. there are market driven conditions that are not coming into play during these discussions and multiple reasons why the industry is going through a transition and not just forest service supply but market and labor continuing to increase and lack of labor shortages. >> we are having a job shortage as a result of these decisions that have been made. commissioners from carbon county and johnson county, wyoming wrote a letter opposing the plan

for old growth areas on our national forest. i ask unanimous consent to put this in the record. both counties asked to be made a cooperating agencies. these requests were made in january and february. when can they expect to receive a response? mr. moore: i'm not aware of what you are talking about but i will get back with you on that. >> will you make these counties a cooperating agency? mr. moore: i can't say that. what do they mean a cooperating agency? and we want to dig into that and see specifically what they mean. a big c and little krmp. >> the forest service is drafting the old growth plan without state and local input and i have a bill that would stop the disastrous proposal. my final question, you talk about the abundance of low and no value material in our

national forests. the agency data shows abundance of large diameter in our national forests. congress has given the forest service a massive infusion of taxpayer dollars how is it that they are below what they were six years ago in 2018? >> since 2002, we have seen a gradal increase in the amount of timber removed and acres treated. i would show you the increase crease. and so we are seeing a slight increase over that period of time, not a decrease. >> last six years. mr. moore: all the way back to the 1980's. >> and now we got -- we are dropping down -- mr. chairman, my time is up.

i'm done.

mr. moore: first of all, i would support the s.b.a. i would like to point out to you we have what i consider a significant success and we had a small logger and while that forest has not cut a lot of

timber traditionally and historically and gone from no program and logger went from one truck to nine trucks. >> i only have a few minutes. would you provide me with an overlay map of where you think our highest risks are going to burn down and set asides small business agreements in the pacific northwest. i appreciate what you did in utah but will you do for the pacific northwest. and we tried to get more information out of noaa and weather forecast information is critical. do you think this legislation could help you in the coming aware of what the risks are for the forest service and better science coordination with n omp aa?

>> we have a longstanding agreement and we do include them. i would like to add and looking at the fires that happened down in new mexico and the larger weather information station we want portable weather stations. and so we need to look at additional types of equipment that with give our on the ground people better real-time information. >> this is what we need. we lost firefighters because the central part of our state had one weather forecast and over the mountains and seattle, we lost firefighters. i need to ask you about wilderness areas and these are important as pets.

and do you think fixed anchor should be prohibited in wilderness areas? mr. moore: there are people on both sides -- >> i'm asking you. mr. moore: we are in the process now of having a draft being put out. we did receive comments back in january and 9,000 comments and we are in the process of analyzing that before we move out with the final. >> what do you want them to do in wilderness. and you are spending your time instead of a bill focused of removing fixed anchors maybe we have to do legislation. but i believe the answer is they belong particularly in areas where they have already prewilderness. support the industry that is

benefiting from the wilderness. thank you very much, chief moore. >> i would like you to clarify something. what do you by big c versus little c cooperation? mr. moore: my experience from many years ago working with the county commissioners wanting to have a say in what happens in our documents and there's a way to do that and the way to do that is to have a collaborative process with our public and elected officials. we think it is imperative they be included. >> doesn't answer my question in any way. ifer limited time and maybe respond in writing, what the difference is between a big c and little c in cooperating

agencies. but look, i have to move on. respond to that one in writing. the draft plan proposes 122, 180 acres of recommended wilderness. this is concerning to me. congress passed the utah wilderness act in 1984, product of a long protracted hard fought made by the state of utah and designated wilderness in exchange for assurance that no future designations would be made. the forest service is ignoring this history and the state and the individual county resource plans applicable to that area. the only way we get healthy forests is having flexibility to perform active management of the forests. let the thing just go.

that is terrible. what we are doing is patch work of designated wilderness, amended wilderness and inventoried roadless areas that make it a nightmare and unachievable. these updated forest plans make the situation worse. can you explain how these recommendations were developed and why the state and local counties' input are disregarded completely in the preferred alternative?

>> real seat at a real table and important decisions, decisions that affect us. much more directly than they do anybody else. we all want healthy forests and avoid catastrophic wildfires but the consequences of bad policy hit someone a lot more than others. in the ashley and proposals, the forest service appears willing to enter into code management rangements but refuses to incorporate state and county.

if the forest can enter co-management with tribes why can't they do it with state and county governments? mr. moore: we do honor the county governments and we do work with them same as we work with tribes and probably work -- >> co-management? it's not been my experience. mr. moore: tribes are a sovereign nation because we deal with them different. >> states are co-sovereign. mr. moore: we deal with them and have a seat at the table. and i'm not sure if we are doing. i'm certain. but, the 2001 rule establishes

prohibition on road construction on 58.5 million acres in national forests service lands. there is 2001 roadless rule helped or hindered with wildfire mitigation efforts? mr. moore: that depends on your perspective. helped or hindered? regardless of what you do. describe it in your assessment, has it helped or hindered wildfire mitigation? mr. moore: i don't think it was designed to help wildfire mitigation. >> understood, thank you. >> chief, welcome. a number of us on this committee worked hard on the great american outdoors act that gave five years to tackle the maintenance backlog at a number

of public land agencies including yours and san diego restoration. we are now in year four of the five. can you walk through what percentage of from fiscal year 21 and 22 are under contract now? mr. moore: can i get you that information? >> i want to make sure, we are seeing progress but well into that now and make sure the funds make it to the ground because they open up opportunities for local communities in terms of the economic opportunities that come with public land recreation. the wildland commission and

g.a.o. found there is not available and adequate housing to recruit firefighters something you referenced. these are folks that families count on to protect them from catastrophic wildfires. is the funding you requested in this budget enough to clear the backlog on firefighting housing maintenance? mr. moore: no. >> how much of a dent? mr. moore: 350 million acres. anything less than that isn't going to get at the backlog. >> in terms of housing, the additional funds that you have requested, what scale of progress are you going to make to make sure that firefighters have access to adequate and well constructed housing? mr. moore: i think we have about $25 million we are putting

forth. we are looking at completely redoing and making necessary changes to many of the other barracks and houses. >> can you give us a full list of those. it is a cart before the house thing. if we don't have adequate housing we won't have the firefighting force to deal with the challenges. mr. moore: i agree. >> the forest service was finalizing to repair the santa fe national forest that keeps them cattle from neighboring onto the preserve. what is the status. mr. moore: million dollars on construction of the fence and maintenance of the fence once it's done. >> is that contractually not the

maintenance contract but the repair contract, has that been executed? mr. moore: we have a meeting set up with the park service and have an agreement in place but we have not signed off on that agreement. but the agreement would be on both the actual construction of the fence and the maintain abs of the fence. >> this has been a long time coming and i would urge you and the director to figure this thing out, because it's a continual source of friction in the area. last week, the lincoln national forest sit down sitting bulls falls recreation, popular spot an hour from carlsbad. why is it closed and what is the plan to get it reopened? mr. moore: my information said that that is not closed even though there are staffing

challenges. but the facility is open and there is also maintenance needs. >> it's my understanding at least from what i heard from the public is that it's closed and we have to figure that out especially as we get into the summer season when demand is particularly high that we maximize that facility. mr. moore: my information tells me they are ready for the memorial day weekend. >> that would be a pleasant surprise. let's work on that. >> senator murkowski. >> you were in front of the interior appropriations committee a month ago and you made a comment that resonated with me. you said i can tell you with certainty if we do not have a

vibrant timber industry we will not make our forests resilient but it seems contradictory to the way -- [indiscernible] the forest service has shifted away from viable inventors and pulled the rug out from the industry and we have talked about this a lot and abandoned the policy that secretary vilsack forced on them during the obama administration. so we have a timber industry that is practically nonexistent right now. and it speaks to your statement about it's impossible to have a healthy and resilient forest. so can you share with me other than research into end use

forest products what is the forest service doing to help support the few remaining small mill operators that are located? the tongas. mr. moore: you know better than anyone the history of -- >> i have lived it. mr. moore: i still stand by my statement without a vibrant timber industry -- >> what do i tell our small mill operators there? is there a future for them or pack up and let employees go elsewhere? mr. moore: there is a future there. how much of that is available to be harvested. >> largest national forest in the country. plenty of available timber but

it's the supplies that don't result in anything for even the smallest of the small timber saw mills. mr. moore: we are guided by a lot of policies and regulations. >> and they are that t omp ngas. let me shift to the southeast sustainable strategy. we are going to cut off timber and not be harvesting and not putting up available sales for timber but give you resources from the federal government. 25 million was the first traunch. and i had scud you last month about the funding that secretary vilsack had promised. he said again the $25 million is the first traunch. i asked for an update on additional funding.

you shared it with me the same thing that secretary vilsack did, well, southeast has gotten funding. that is true. as i reminded everybody, this proposal his on southeast sustainable strategy was well before we even talked about i.r.a. in fairness that does not count. that is not keeping the promise of secretary vilsack. you said you were going to double-check on the status of what southeast might be able to expect. maybe that is part of our survive built strategy and getting some kind of support from additional sources of funding.

[indiscernible] this completes the dingell act. this is the result of several years of groundwork by the entire alaska delegation and working with the department of interior and forest service. i know you have worked on that, but i'm hoping you can get your commitment that forest service is going to work proactively

with your office to advance this legislation and address this challenge. mr. moore: we are going to continue to work with you on that. >> senator hickenlooper. >> thank you for being here, i appreciate your affection for our forest and commitment to it which i share. i want to reiterate and fixed bankers in various parts of the national forest and we have got a proposal in with the recreation that fixed anchors to remain in place. and i think we are going to get

it reconciled. there are two sides to this i look at the cost to move fixed anchors and you have to go through every national park. it does president seem to make that much sense. a strong sentiment that way throughout the senate. let me ask you a question about housing. many of the smaller towns across the west and to a certain extent are having housing issues and i think local communities have asked whether we can talk to the forest service about doing joint venture partnerships housing for employees of the forest service but also local teachers or nurses, people that are not

compensated to afford housing where they live. is there an opportunity there? mr. moore: absolutely. this is a crisis facing americans and has an impact on the forest service. your own states has been on the white river national forest and we are looking at working with the community to build homes in exchange for homes for our employees. that has set a tone that is starting to be spread across the nation to be creative in how we address this issue. but it's all of our issues and all of our communities' issues. i am glad to see where the communities are working together to fix this issue because at the end of the day and do not have employees, we cannot do the job you're asking us to do. >> we are all in it together and

excellent example. i just want to brag about colorado being the innovator such as it is. i have had a chance to hold forth -- i have a fill could have call question, i was governor for eight years and beginning of this phase of wildfires that were immense, enormous and they continue. people could argue back and forth we don't need to debate here the causes of the change in climate but clearly wildfires are increasing, the conditions and humidity and they are more frequent and worse. i was always puzzled and i spent a lot of time out in the control centers. we would spend enormous amounts of money and wind would change and the fire line would be.

[indiscernible] almost like they have an evil spirit. they come back in directions. nothing that i could look at that gave me comfort every state and you guys are spending more money out of your budget but states are doing the same thing and might be need for better study and way ahead of me on this. i want the strategic planner here. mr. moore: i appreciate the question and fire is a complex. i oversaw a lot of the fire

program and understand the changing conditions just creates a situation that becomes more volatile and predictable but amounts of research in the rocky mountain and developed different control points and strategies to manage these fires differently where it isn't about overwhelming force the entire time but where do i use the resources that i have available and the ecological conditions to actually be able to take advantage of those. >> maybe i'll get my staff to reach out. i don't know if mr. moore wants to add anything to that. mr. moore: only thing i will add, what you will see different is the demand team structure and

people to come into the tent to share information about local conditions. a lot of concern that sometimes the incident team doesn't have local knowledge and responding to that by including locals to share that local knowledge. >> thank you both for being here. i have questions on the colorado river but put those into writing. i yield back to the chair. >> senator daines. >> fires continue to multiply across our country, many important forest management projects that would decrease wildfires have been halted by litigation. in fact, in montana alone, 300 million board feet is tied up by litigation. this stops the removal of

hazardous fuels that are surrounding our communities and just the threat of legal action forces the forest service to spend additional time making projects bulletproof against litigation. there is a small project in montana where the forest service plans to harvest over a thousand acres but spent 19 months from scoping to decision and create 183-paged environmental assessment. my bill that i have to fix the ninth circuit cottonwood decision that passed this committee last may would be crucial in preventing some of the litigation that is stopping wildfire mitigation work and i will continue to urge its passage in the full senate and it would be a huge help what you all have to do. it is critical that the forest

service push forward with forest management projects. the forest service treated 4.3 million acres in fiscal 2023 with nearly half of those treatment acres being prescribed fire and rose acres nearly three-quarters being done in the south. while it's goodness work being done across the country there are crisis landscapes in montana and across the west that need focused. the state of montana look on the state efforts more than tripled their acres treated from 2020 to 2023. at the same time, the forest service increased acres by about 34% and the state of montana tripled.

we need the forest service to follow the lead we are seeing in montana and places greater emphasis and urgency. my question for you is why does the forest service fiscal year 25 budget decrease the target number of acres treated from fiscal year 2024? mr. moore: there is a lot there so i'll try and respond to it in its entirety. when you look at our budget now, a lot of our budget goes towards reduction and not timber reduction. when i look at the amount of timber that we are providing, we have seen a steady increase. we have seen an increase over the last 20 years of about 30% increase in timber.

while that perception is out there that we are not producing timber, that is not accurate. when you look at what we are actually doing. more specifically to montana, i have gone out with the governor to visit, i think it was the basin creek watershed area there where you have a community there that is threatened by wildfires and as a result what the state is doing we have done that to increase the watershed area. montana is our leader in good neighbor authority and using that authority. so we have a lot of work taking place in montana. montana is the most contiguous state in the country when it comes to forest type of products. you have a lot of that coming to bear there. but here again, i think that

entire region, montana and idaho are doing excellent work. >> thanks coming out to montana to spend time with our governor. the bigger question is why were the target decreased from 4.2 million to 4 million when we need more treatment? your target decreased year after year. mr. moore: when i look at the 2025 -- >> at least my numbers show f.y.2024 it was 4.2 million acres. hazardous fuel reduction and f.y.2025 is four million. why would it go down? mr. moore: i thought you met timber production.

>> hazardous fuel reduction. mr. moore: and so -- >> why would you take it down? >> we have a lost and increase in costs. >> you think about it, if you are reducing hazardous fuel, it's a way to preempt catastrophic wildfires which are expensive to fight once they begin. mr. moore: the question i was answering earlier that we have to talk about, what is the performance metric? is it protecting communities or watersheds that these communities depend on? if it is, those are more expensive to treat. and where we have been measured by the number of acres treed or treated, we have put ourselves doing random acts of restoration

because of that metric output. while that is important, what we are finding is protecting communities and if you agree with that, then perhaps we need to look at outcomes based on the work we are doing. you have a lot of steep slopes we are trying to get to. all of that is more expensive. and you do less work. >> thank you for that. i know you are balancing competing authorities but it's troubling at a time when we are seeing buildups of hazardous fuels and the target went down from 4.2 to 4 million. i raise that as a real concern when you think about that's an investment to try to reduce the cost of catastrophic wildfires. you pay a lot more later.

>> last year, our target was four million and we achieved 4.3 million and achieved more than what our target was. this year or 25, when you look at where the budget is going, we don't have the same level of budget to do that amount of work. >> i have to respect my colleagues' time. i'm over my time. thank you. thank you for always taking my calls when we need to say thank you for the great work you have been doing i want to begin by thanking you and your team at the forest service and more recently for your support in the

expansion of both the versusmon you and national monument in southern california includes additional acreages in the west angeles national forest and i appreciate the partnership of working together and thank you for the support of who was with the celebration on saturday. i want to turn to an issue that was testified that of federal firefighter pay. wood land firefighter together with senator sinema that would protect in the bipartisan infrastructure laws. my question for you, the proposed budget for f.y.2025 provides 216 million to a pay increase for the firefighter

work force how these pay increases compare to the pay increases. mr. moore: one of the biggest differences that the pay raise is in the bipartisan infrastructure bill doesn't allow that increase to be carried over into retirement. and that's one of the biggest differences there. the other big difference between the two is our recruitment and retention improves with the permanent version of that as opposed to that temporary version of that that has been extended through the continuous resolution and we thank congress for extending it. we have a lot of nervous firefighters out there waiting to see if this is going to be permanent or not. and if by chance or not, we should expect to see a lot of firefighters leaving for better

pay and better opportunities. >> general recruitment and retention issues across the work force and i understand it is acute. you answered my follow-up questions. would it be helpful to pass a permanent pay increase? i assume the answer is yes. >> it would help the federal work force. >> on a different topic, recreation dos gov. a popular to book camp sites and reserve vehicle passes and with each of these transactions, a small reservation fee is charged. maybe the entirety of their fees and booking on the website benefit the public lands some of the money instead is funneled to the web site manager which has

been reported to be $140 million in profits from 2018 to 2022. i think it's important we use thoughtful reservation that balance conservation efforts with public access. i am concerned there is lack of transparency here around the fee structure for the web site. what's the status of the recreational contract and what is the forest service doing to increase transparency of lottery camp site applications? mr. moore: in terms of that fee. i will provide that to you. >> i'll take that as a followup. and this was a topic of conversation in the subcommittee hearing yesterday with the park service and asked them to follow up what are the best practices they are considering to design an equitable reservation system

including what may be needed from congress to improve outcomes. the point i was making one thing to build on access, and every new national park creates access for the american public. we know there is a gap in access which communities of color visit the parks less and i want to make sure when there is a reservation system online and way people interface with it, it's a tool to help close the gap and not exacerbate that gap. if you could follow up. thank you for your service. >> chief, good to have you here and thanks to both gentleman for scwoining us. we appreciate you and your

work. and chief, we are working you to get out to north dakota to the national grass lands. are you working with us on get it done? mr. moore: it is june and i don't know the specific dates. >> they told us june 24, that week. we'll work with your staff. and seeing our cowboys and energy producers and tourism officials. they appreciate it and will turn out to see you and have an opportunity to visit with you. we appreciate that. you have a travel management plan you are working on and goes to where you are identifying all your roads and access points out in the grasslands. will you commit to consulting with all relevant stakeholders as you work on that travel management plan?

mr. moore: yes. >> and something we can talk about that as well. last year, we had deputy french out there. set a high bar for you. mr. moore: i told him to be on stand by to come with me. >> he actually did a great job and met with the folks. as a result of that effort announced that additional funding -- which is really important, 1.7 million has been allocated. i want to know that you stand behind that and something we can talk about as well. mr. moore: yes. >> staffing needs and do you think you are making progress there? i bet that is a real issue as well. mr. moore: we are making some progress and our challenge and it's not something that a forest service issue but an issue in

our community but we are struggling to come to some locations because of the cost of living. it's a challenge. >> it is. we really need folks out there in our part of the world. deferred maintenance we passed the great american outdoors act to get deferred maintenance not only in the parks but on the national grasslands and other places as well. what steps -- two things i want to go at here. one are states putting money into this on a partnership basis with you all. and next thing is our joint chiefs program with the nrts. both our joint programs and trying to leverage your

abilities. and that includes a lot of things. you are focused on the aspects and go to tourism and those kinds of things. our grazers and ranchers, cowboys out there, they need fencing and water lines and need dugouts, all these enhancements on the ground and senators were talking about in terms of prescribed burns, all that kind of stuff. talk to me of the partnership with the state on those issues where we'll provide money to partner with you as well as the joint chiefs program which bennett and i have worked on legislatively here. mr. moore: good neighbor authority, that program has grown significantly with the states and locals. we were hoping that we would have some language in the farm bill that would treat the counties and tribes as the same

as the states to keep the revenues in the counties and in the areas where it i believe that's in a version the farm bill as we go forward. i think that would make a large difference in the amount of work we're able to see on the ground. i think when you look at the other piece there, in terms of the joint chiefs project, we just met with nrcs and approved, i think, 10 projects. so we do see a lot of value in the joint chiefs. it gives us an opportunity to more than anything work as one usda where we bring in a number of usda agencies together to do work across jurisdictional boundaries. we have been seeing a lot of value in that work, in that effort. >> and those are things again, i'll try to get our state ag commissioner out there as well.

and finally, mr. chairman, i beg your indulgence. this is on behalf of senator ba raws sewing her had one question he waned me to ask, so with your indulgence i'll do that. the e.p.a. revised its standard for particulate matter, 2.5 under the clean air act. so the concern is that this new standard will effectively prohibit prescribed fires, prescribed burns in the west. that's something we're obviously concerned about in the grasslandstoo. so under the standard will emissions from prescribed fires put communities in violation of the clean air act? mr. moore: how i would respond to that, senator is that we've got to make some choices. and if we do not allow prescribed fires to take place then wildfires are going to take place. while we argue and debate about the amount of particulate matter

we, i think, need to have an honest conversation about what it is that we're trying to achieve and what are the lesser evils of this issue around fire. prescribed fires, i think, are necessary to take place. >> exactly. so does congress need to provide an exemption for prescribed fires thirn clean air act, in your opinion? mr. moore: i think if congress did provide that, we would be satisfied. >> thanks again, for being here today and for your work. we appreciate it. mr. moore: thank you, senator. >> please pass along to senator barrasso there's bipartisan support for that. now turnover senator cortez. >> thank you. good to see you, thank you for being here, not that you had a choice but we appreciate you being here. over the past few year, the forest service along with other

public land management agencies have seen considerable investment. the great american outdoors act. the bipartisan infrastructure act, the inflation reduction act and the wildfire strategy. at the same time the forest service has made an effort to recruit and hire new staff to do the work from these major investments. i know this let me give you an example. the national forest mostly in nevada i understand has the highest staffing levels you've had in decades. in 2022 and 2023 more permanent employees were hired than were lost to attrition which had not been the case in years. last year 69 new hiers were brought on board in nevada. i'm curious to hear your outlook for the future. unless congress enacts extensions, all of these authorities have an expiration date. yet the need, as you have been talking here today, for all of these initiatives, investments,

still remains. so how do you see the work? what do you want us to know with respect to where we should be focusing? mr. moore: first i want to acknowledge to congress that -- and to this committee how much we appreciate, you know, what we've been able to do with the bill and funding. it's given us a chance to really hit the reset butttop in many ways. what you mentioned, the hum bold teyave. we had been steadily losing employees for the last 20 years. the amount of requests, the am of work continues to go up they feel amount of employees has gone down. we've been challenged on how we work with the public going forward. while we created a lot of great relationship through partners and community leaders, we needed to beef up just the basic bare bones of the organization.

so we've been able to do that. we lost 40% of our non-fire work force over the last 40 years. our idea was to bring back half of that and leverage the other half through partnerships. i'm happy to say last year, when we looked at partner cricks, they contributed about $970 million worth of value to work we do because of that leveraging. we have been able to bring employees back on board. and new we need to assess where we are with the number of employees because when we look at the attrition rate, i would like to think that people are happy in the forest service, they're in the leaving as rapidly as they used to. but there's a lot -- we don't have the attrition rate we normally had been having. we're having to do an assessment and see what kind of shifts do we need to make in the organization. that's where we are from an organizational standpoint. it's been refreshing to be able to bring new employee into the

work force with new perspective, new ideas and to help us move into that next generation of natural resource management on our public lands. >> i have to tell you the men and women who work in the forest service in nevada that i know, they truly love the job and believe in the mission. the biggest challenge is they're overworked at times and overwhelms because of the understaffing issue. it's nice to see your focus is on addressing those issues. i'm going to ask you, you may not be able to answer today but if you could get back to me. last summer, storms associated with the tropical storm hillary swept through southern nevada, damaging communities and infrastructure. among the areas damaged was the spring mountain national recreation area. it is managed by the forest service. the damage caused to this area by floods forced closures of many areas, important for outdoor recreation. while much of that has reopened,

i understand that some site mace stay closed for the foreseeable future either because it cannot be restored to as it was or not enough money is available. can you -- you may not be able to now but at some point in time can you speak to that and address why -- just in general, your efforts to restore that spring mountain area. mr. moore: yes, i'll get back with you on specifics about that specific area. i know generally when we have these types of things happen, a lot of times, i'm not saying it happened there, but a lot of times when those facilities were desieped they probably put facilities in places they probably never should have been. not that this is the case. so we'll look into the specifics of that to talk about why some facilities didn't come back but then how do we mitigate that by adding others in other locations that are more suitable. >> thank you, i look forward to that followup. thank you, mr. chairman. >> i want to take this opportunity to thank again our

two witnesses. as the senator mentioned, you hawaii really had no choice but we thank you for being here and for this discussion. a little bit of housekeeping. members of the committee have until close of business tomorrow to submit additional questions for the record. and with that, the committee now stands adjourned. thank you very much. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2024] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

♪ha