on-demand. keep up with the day's biggest events with live streams of floor proceedings and hearings from the u.s congress, with house events, the courts, campaigns and more from the fingertips. you can stay current with the latest epiof wsodehington journal and find scheduling information for c-span's tv networks and c-span radio plus e apple store and goo play. scan the qr code to download it for free today or visit our website, c-span.org/c-span now. c-span now, your front row seat to washington anytime, anywhere. >> coming up, former u.s. ambassador to russia john sullivan talks about the ongoing war in ukraine. he dcuputin motives for the inv. are part of the republican national lawyers association policy conference in arlington, virginia. this is about half an hour.

>> right. it is my distinct pleasure to welcome to the stage my former boss john sullivan. john has done just about every job you can do at the executive branch. ■. has been at four cabinet , coselor to this has to attorney general of the office of legal counsel, at the department of defense, general col and deputy secretary at the department of commerce,

deputy secretary at the department of state and his last gig, he was our man in moscow. w ambassador to the russian federation. john hsume might suggest, been a public servant for really his whole lifehe has. he is responsible for me getting involved in public service. >> i am the guy you have to blame. and he showed me what it was to manage other people.

we thought weighto this as more of a conversation since as yon see, we actually know each other and like each other. at least some of us like some other once. you have been involved with our nla for four decades. >> since i became a lawyer, was in law school in the 84 election, reagan mda lawyer in the 88 campaign,h dukakis and was involved likely working for president bush 41 in 92. i was telling david i remember ing to an event at the convention inon in 92 and the featured speaker was

somebody that was not all that well-known and ore assistant attorney general, former assistant attorney general by the name ed on to do bigger and better things. i have been in and around rnla for a long time and proud to be here. m proud to take credit for hiring david for his first job in government. >> as you may have gatheredmffeh he has served, ' gigs were legal in nature but heosd . he did what a lot of us lawyers hope to do. not all of them are as successful in doing as john did but he finished out doing nonlegal jobs. whether that was deputy secretary at comme dsecrary at r

to russia. but john, harken back if you will to the legal gigs.what didn lines as you were at justice, defense, commerce when you were in your legoles how did you grapple of the issues i think we are seeing with the executive branch >> i recall not just for myself but virtually everyone i worked with. our overriding commitment to the rule of law. the law is not just the whim of a policymaker, someone who has we we are committed to a rule of law embded in our constitution, statutes passed by congress, promulgated regulations, properly probably by administrative agencies.

i served o republican presidents until most recently. president biden kept me in moscow as ambassador and i was proud tuesday representing the united states in that post. our commitment to the rule of law is what distinguishes us from the prc and the russians among others. david and i participated when we were at the in something called the u.s.. china legal exchangnevean ceased to amaze me how my -- how ed interlocutors where when i described our legal system and how a district court judge in washington could compel the pren the united states to do something in a war as we called it back then.globa. its wh distinguishes us from the prc to the one thing -- the prc.

the one thing no chinese communist leader caid independent judiciary. in china, in the prc i shoulsayd . the party leads and everything else flows. there are no independent judges. the party rules. i contrast tt with my experience in russia where putin andrule what i saw as ambassor mentioned this to david, it was to borrow a russian metaphor, a potemkin legal stem. it looks like a judicial system to the judges where the most beautiful robes i have ever seen. glow -- they have gold medallions on their collars and there's hinged at t he twith a gold chain. they are in majestic courtrooms.

i remember going to the courtroom in which paul whelan who is one of the americans has been wrongfully detained for four and a half years in russia, where his triali was allowed inm occasionally which is unusual he was being prosecuted and was ud of espionage. he was tried in a secret court with secret evidence he never saw. i got into the courtroom occasionally to speak with him before the c s started while he was in his holding cell. e beautiful. it might as well have been in the southern d york or any other u.s. district court around the country. but it is all for show. the decisions are made by the kremlin and i made literally by

leaders in the kremlin who then communicate to administrative judges who thenommucate to whatever judge oversees the local court where a particularly sensitive trial isng who then gives instructions to the judge. i see this -- trevor reed, ar wd amer, sit in sessions for trevor. i was getting a translation from one of my embassy colleagues in my ear because i don't spe russian. a difficult legalion uld come up. you could see on the judge's face. what do i do? he would take a break. he would go back. ing e proceedings.t from anyone

he would call the administrative judge. what do i do about this? what about this evidences american has offered? he would get his instruction. deni. it gives me as if i needed it an not a real respect and comfort in our judicial system and our commitment to the rule of law which as speakers before including the most recent panel, they give us pause. if we that, we have lost if we don't have an independejul rule on cases on -- as a matter of law and not a policy choice,

then we have lost our republic. i have always since in the 80's with president going back to the failed nomination to put then judge bork e qualified to be an assjuste on t is a long time ago but i bear ft history. but as a long-winded answer to for this group -- long-winded answer. but for this group, i wanted to make point picked i have seen what it is like. it ins. they do pluck americans off the street. if you are former military and you have had security clearance and you make the unwise decisi s happened many times a person you online as a potential friend. this happens.

theikelihood that you are going to be accused of a crime is notns and once you are in that system and you are an american, fsb which is one of the successors of the kgb takes over and there is not a thing you can do. i saw it case after case with wrongfully detained americans should it does not matter -- wrongfully detained americans. it does not matter what the evidence is. you are guilty. . will be sentenced based on the the fsb and the russian government can exploit you to get something they want from the united states i will give you one final exa oimportant the ru. trevor reed's case was prosecuted for assaulting two police officers. a former marine and a tough he had to have been to survive as long as he the labor camp

in mora dincarcerated in pit to. tough guy. but about this big. even shorter than i am. the two police officers he was alleged to have assaulted looked like they could have played in thefl on the defensive line of a good nfl team. the evidence at court was -- what is the technical term -- stupid and preposterous. a judge, t presiding judge laughed out loud multiple times. trevor's father joey reed -- the texas constituents of senator cruz. this is the type of man joey reed is. pent his entire life's savings to move to there for his sons trial which

was in court in moscow. jo back to the embassy after court and say it lousheking gthe judge just cracp prosecution's case is because there was no case. reed was found guilty and sentenced to nine years in a labo almost died because he was exposed to aids and tuberculosis are rampant in the russian prison . he was exposed to a cuban inmate who died tuberculosis. ung former marine is usually fatal. thy thrussians treated him. we have to do everything w can to make sure we keep an independent judiciary here so we have legal resource to protect ourselves and our rights. t is exactly right. i guess this is closely linked to the independent you to sherry

andhehe■lc@ other thing i remember our chinese friends from the state council legislative affairs (office, it did not compute for them. on some level i understand why the communist party's rule in china but we are the republican nationalye association. our country has a two party system. i thk you heard senator cruz talk about and you have heard others talk a efforts to effectively make this a single party country. it did not compute to them wait a second. what you mean and i think we were doing this in president bush's second term. w esident bush was not going to be president in 200 2010. he was term limited. we did not know -- we know what happened now but at the time we

did not know who was going to be been a democrat. that did not compute to them that there would be a handover of power. that there was an opposition, a loyal opti hopefully. china, russia, that does not compute as well. in china, i use the term loosely by law by decree of the chinese communist party, the party is the state is the country there are no other parties. thereno other source of wisdom, law, punishment. the party decides when someone has committed a crime and the first signebody has committed a crime and it is going to be prosecuted and is made to expel that person from the person is no longer aty.

comrade. after the decision is made, that person is handed over to the prosecutor for the administrative application of whatever punishment the party decides is appropriate. that is the system in china. has developed a similar system although he pre it is a potemkin judicial system. ite expression they use in russia. it is a managed democracy. what that means is and it is gradual over the last 20 plus yes since he was first inte prime minister and shortly thereafterdentf the russian federation. reelected. i will not bore y with all of outs of how he has maintained and consolidated power.

of him personally through what is known as ed russia, his nominal political party. it involves everything from killing the opposition like alexei nalny. some of their techniques -- they are clever and i have to say russians do havere sense -- i love the russian people. have a great sense of humor. one of their techniques i always thought was worthy of the best wart healers from tammany hall where the daley machine in chicago. if united russia is running a candidate in a particular district and the are -- hundreds of members of the state duma which is there house and the federation c is the equivalent of their senate. if someone is running for the opponent that is running against

putin's person, the united kremlin will put up -- find and put up as a third party candidate a doppelganger. literally the person looks identical if the name is close, they will make it closer. if it is not close, they will ju■ist name. if i'm john sullivan running for the let's make russia great again party against putin's united russia, they're going find an irishman from boston who looks like me and have his name is patrick will change his name to john sullivan. . then he is on the ballot. ■?and that is just when they ye expression managed democracy, it

would make the daily family crowd in chicago. it goes beyond that so literally murdering the opposition. imprisonments and so forth. broad, the pride ings that have -- still have in our country and the hope i have in our country for the future, which is important. which is why reagan wins in 80 hope, confidence in4 is hope. and our country which on the others, they are in my have been embarrassed by our country. i'm not. sometimes.

but it is faith in our institutions which are under . the women and working in them and i start at the supreme c, who are under attack person early. -- personally. that is something that would happen in russia. that should not happen here. when david asked me if i would like to come and join you here today, i said heck yeah. your mission is so important to protect our institutions and the country we have. at a minimum, to reaffirm or for some people restore hope in our future because it is easy to get down and be pretty bleak with what is going on today.

>> i don't want to steal too much thunder from your book, which is coming out this summer, midnignc moscow, but you were there when putin pulled the trigger and russi invaded ukraine. like and what you went through? level, because the relationship between the united states andus beginning of 2022 it was so bad, when the war started, we were already smothered by thefs. it is a difficult post in which to try to conduct diplomacy for the united states so things did not change our they today

come our mission in russia whew. i was convinced and making public statement, months before the war started and i'm not saying this to pat myself on the back as a prognosticator but i did know that he was going to do it. he was going to wage an aggressive ukraine which hegne as an independent country. i knew he was going to do it. i saying so publicly. particularly american ex-pats in moscow -- >> for those who don't do the international thing, american chamber of commerce. with the chamber

in the united states. they said don't scare people. for him to large land war on the european continent, that is nuts. he wants to threaten it because he wants to squeeze the united stat and the biden administration to get concessions in what he wants so he has to make it look like he is going to do it but he will not really. the tanks won't cross the border. that would bei said, no, he is g to do it. i gave a press conference. i said the russians were negotiating with us, with the united states, this was weeks before the invasion started. i said they are negotiating with us their negotiating tactic is they walk in, they put a gun on the table and-- i knew they .

prognosticator, i had no faith the ukrainians were goingt. i thought what would happen would be something similar to what happened in august of 1968. many red army, the ct to invade czechoslovakia and sees progress. the so-called prague spring. they take the c■'■rzech leader,t them on a plane, taken to moscow. talk to. expression they used back in the was this was fraternal assistance to czechoslovakia . now it is a special military

assistance. he was lucky to survive. they put him on a plane after a little rducation in moscow. he got back on a plane. order was restored in ia to the kremlin's standards check got sent to be a ranger in slovakia and they let him live. i said zelenskyy should be so lucky. the russians are going to come in. their estimates10ays to 14 days they would have seized , major combat operations would be over. senior officers who were going into ukraine were told to bring their dress uniforms for victory parades in key have. -- in kyiv. ukrainians said heck no.

there is a famousmage some of you may have seen this youtube video. ukinians said you are not going to invade our country. even the russian-speaking ukrainians who have relatives in russia said you can't do this. the example i like to cite is there is a youtube video of a woman -- i'm going to forget the village. the russian troops are coming h t of primary -- of crimea. . the russian paratroopers are walking through the middle of her village. i will sanitize the language. translated. she walks up to these paratroopers with their assault esn the main street of her little village and says who the f are y. you are fascists.

picks up a fistful of sunflower seed. ukraine. she sticks it in the face of this russian paratrooper and says put this in your pocket so when you are killed and buried here, something goilout you. [laughter] you multiply that by 45 million ukrainians. it was a huge mistake by putin because he was misled by the and others that a majority of support the special military operation bd nout the resist. he was misinformed. he failed. and now he will never surrender the goals of the special military operation. we can debate. i'm -- to continue to support the government in ukraine. there is no te opinion

about the gernment in the person of putin and his goy ha done and what they will continue to do which is to wage an aggressive war. it is defined by the international military tribunal at nuremberg in 1946. which by the way i believe 11 nazis hank for committing the crime, crime against peace. he will continue to wage war as hes now. they tried in2. they failed. there were driven out of the enti kharkiv ie summer and early fall of 22. he is not going to quit. eramp. this war will continue until he achieves his two goals and has two goals are to denazify ukraine entity demilitarized

entity demilitarized ukraine which is to replace the government in kyiv and install a governmentn moscow. f those of you aware of what has happened in belarus, the government in minsk which is -- belarus and russia have formed what they call a union state. putin wants uaine to become part of that three state, russia, belarus and ukraine. he is not going to stop. he doesn't care how many people get killed or how many milliodrr driven further -- driven from thei countries as refugees principally in europe. it does not matter. the united states abhorred dless wars. it does not bother putin. he is going to continue.

he is russia for a long-term war. he has admitted that n aft, mone special military operation started. weertimated how good we were. we overestimated the support we were going to have in ukraine. he does not care. from his view, our forefathers which by the way, the red army included zelenskyy's grandfather . >> but is weh sacrific m liberate ukraine from the nazis.

pick you want to credit for russian combat casualties to date. 400,000, 700,000. that does not bother the president of the russian tion. lita operationates in just the exceed all of the combined deaths and all of the soviet operations and that includes the two chechen wars and it is asked breast -- and the disastrous express and afghanistan. the number of troops killed in ukraine exceed all of the soviet combat deaths from 19 45 when the great patriotic war ends until the sal operation started. far more than in a year, just

the first year, the russians lost m killed than the united states did 10 years -- did in 10 years in vietnam. putin, the price of empire from his view. >> thank you. this was fabulous. . i round of applause. -- a round of app>> let me makew administrative announcemfirst, . [laughter] everyone needs to exit the ballroom in an orderly fashion. take all your stuff with you. i have to set up for lunch don't leave stuff on the table. take your backs, take your folders. start at 12:15. signed copies of senator cruz's ok o there. i believe we have lots of

copies. in case you did not hear me the first time, get out. >> this afteron, former u.s. commission on international freedom member johnny moo will speak about supporting israel and the jewish people from outside the jewish community. watch the event live taystartinn c-span, c-span now, or online at c-spanrg >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government, funded by these television companies more, including