collapse, we need it to happen as soon as possible. you are talking about the mood of the russian elite, here is my colleague mykhailo zygal, a famous russian publicist once, and now a columnist for the spiegel publication, published texts about the mood of the russian elite, in which he emphasizes that now businessmen and politicians no longer think that putin loses, they believe that russia is winning, and the attitude towards putin has become much more loyal, but also much more skeptical. to the west, this war must be won, or russia may disintegrate, and we won't be able to live the way we used to live, these words were summed up by many of his interlocutors, especially in the russian elite, so where is the hope that they will get tired of the process, which they perceive as a process that should lead to victory in any - in any case, of course, they got used to it, and my understanding of what mykhailo zyhal writes about is about... let's say, a medium-sized business, or

a business that depends on the transformation of the russian economy into a military one, into a military one, so to speak about big businesses are connected to oligarchs and so on, their main problem is of course to find a way to survive today, somehow to protect their capitals from confiscation or other unpleasant things in the west, and in the end to return... to what they consider normal situation, normal life, so there are definitely businesses that take advantage of this moment, benefit from adjusting the economy for war, but big russian business will lose by and large, just as the russian elite will lose in the long run, the reorientation from paris to china, cultural, financial and

so on, this is not a quick or painless process for those who today are in charge of large parts of the russian economy, so yes, the situation is not as panicky as it was in march, april of 2022, when it was thought that all was lost, but the situation in the medium-term, long-term perspective is not favorable for the kremlin. how do you generally feel about what is happening in connection with the russian-ukrainian war in the west, both from the point of view of assessing the challenges and from the point of view of assessing the danger to the west itself, to what extent the west takes into account the lessons of the past, when the war in ukraine always seemed to be such a periphery of the interests of the civilized world, one of the shocks for me personally, with

the beginning of a large-scale war, was connected with the fact that i hoped that someone in the world, the west, the east , north, south, someone learns from history, someone, someone uses these these lessons, what i understood today is that the lessons work in the sense that if they became, well, let's say, were part of the experience of this generation of this. the generation that is in power the historical lessons of even the cold war are the same as the lessons of some punic wars. this, this, this is a deep story, the leaders of society as a whole do not learn from them. what happened in europe, if we talk about this part of the event, after the 22nd year, this, this personification is not historically about. not

the threat associated with hitler, associated with the experience of the second world war, but the very real threat posed by russia, and we would not have learned about this if we had not begun, so to speak, to flood the united states america in the congress, in particular, and here it appeared that europe took a step forward and for a while became a leader in this anti-putin, anti-russian coalition, and they started. to speak in a voice that only poles spoke before, or only representatives of the baltic states spoke, i.e. from there macron's statements, from there, from there in general the instruction, including the financial instruction of germany, i.e. the last very dramatic six months, very uncertain six months actually opened a new one for us, the new europe, so europe is learning just like the united states, but...

they learn only from their own mistakes, but on the other hand, many people are now overwhelmed, well, there is help, ukraine will need it there within a year, maybe even more, but what will happen in a year? if we're talking about a long-term war, how much can we hope that the congress, the new congress, the congress after the by-elections, that the president, if there is a new president, that they will be as ready to approve aid to ukraine as they have now? er, well, you have to, you have to hope and work on it, er, the chances are good, because one of the reasons, maybe the main reason, why ee - this aid and this law, the law got stuck in the congress was connected with the fact that the republicans, who are formally the majority, are actually an extremely shaky majority, and well

, we saw it, that's how they voted, here we are , it seems to me that the connection has been interrupted now, i hope that we will now... establish it with mr. serhiy plokhi, and now we will be interrupted for literally a couple of minutes. long-acting cream relieves pain, reduces swelling and improves joint mobility. with the cream dolgit, whatever you want, i will lift. dolgit - the only yellow cream for pain in the joints and back have you never seen a classic in underwear or something? i wrote a children's poem here, will you listen? tractor in the field dir-dir. so why did we freeze, and what do you think about the local fix? reliably fixes, my dentist advised me, even particles of food do not get under the prosthesis, and the price is good, the right choice for my pension, lakalot

fix is ​​a new cream for extra strong fixation of dentures and healthy gums, so your choice is lavrarut fix, there is discounts on eurofast software. 10% in pharmacies plantain, memory and savings. the premium sponsor of the national team represents. united by football, stronger together. we continue. our conversation with the historian sergii plochii, mr. sergii, it was to me that any other congress in which either the republicans or the democrats had a solid majority would behave differently, so that

is where my more optimistic view of the future is based, but of course, that future will depend on many factors, and i think that ukraine should... work very seriously with both parties, and in this, in this case, i remain optimistic about the support of the united states of america, which will last. well, maybe we just need to take a closer look at american political traditions, because there is a willingness to help, but not to participate, and isolationism, and along with that, a willingness to participate in the challenges that he spoke about. by the way, speaker mike johnson said before the vote that he is an ipoh reagan republican, all these traditions have, shall i say, deep roots in american history? of course, and from this point of view , the position held by a fairly large number

of republicans, and at some stage democrats, position of isolationism, it defined american politics throughout the 20s and 30s. years americans and american president woodrow wilson was the key author, the architect of the league of nations, but after creating this institution, the united states of america never joined it, and then it took pell harbor and the japanese attack on the united states of america to change, change this trend, change this tradition that existed, but it exists. until today, so all of these, all of these are very real things to really take to attention and with which to work. to what extent do you think ukrainian society today understands all the serious challenges associated with this war, in particular

the globalization of the conflict, the fact that many countries and societies are beginning to get tired of the war and that russian propaganda is trying to use all this fatigue and all these fears for their own. needs, i think that today ukrainian society assesses the situation much more realistically, including the world situation, i can say. that it is night and day, compared to this euphoria, very often based on ignorance of the realities that existed in ukraine even at the beginning of autumn last year, at the end of august, at the beginning of september , i gave an interview to one of the magazines in ukraine, and this interview was published only in november, and i was told , which is simple... at the beginning of september , from their point of view, the ukrainian reader was not ready

for such an interview to appear, so at a very high price, but this correlation between ukrainian hopes and the realities around us is actually happening, so today they are more realistic than they were were six months ago, but what is it, by the way, it is interesting that the ukrainian reader was not ready, but i am used to the fact that politicians... want to talk to ukrainians as if they are small children who simply do not turn their heads, so to speak, and live by emotions, and now i see that my colleagues also believe that the audience is not ready for something, the audience is ready for something, it is not necessary to scare it, it is necessary for it to live in illusions and not and not to fool itself and the editorial team, well i would like to say that i cooperate very fruitfully with your colleagues, they, they want as best as possible, but, but really, really big

problem was, especially during the last year, this, so, so much building these, these aspirations, these, these, hopes, unrealistic, that in the end it hit very, very painfully, i.e. disappointment , today, i think we have another, have chosen a different tonality, i hope that this realistic tonality should continue and will continue. and tell me, please, can we find examples in history when society tried to live in such critical moments for their existence by self-suggestion, when it was, where it is possible. look for it, i don’t know, maybe flavia, i don’t know, it’s there in the jewish war,

i’m just trying to remember, well, on the one hand , we have to recognize certain realities that the fact that ukraine and we, and i personally heard her at the beginning of this war, that you have to hold out for a week or two and that's it, and everything will get better, it eventually paid off. positive role, that is , in the end, we do not put the patient on the operating table without painkillers, and it is precisely this psychological, psychological atmosphere that is being created, it is very important, partly because of this, american and other observers cannot really assess to what extent this or that country will... create resistance or not, whether the afghan army will fight, whether it

will disperse overnight, whether ukraine will act the opposition, will president zelenskyy create, create a cabinet in exile, in london or in warsaw, as he was proposed to, so this, this is a complex, complex thing and a complex problem, relative to the... that help other and any countries to stand , i would point to most of the wars that took place in the world in the 20th century, because most of the wars were precisely wars between countries that were just being created, fighting for their independence, and great powers, whether it is the united states of america or the soviet union, we can talk about vie. there you can talk about afghanistan and so on, these countries had no chance to stand against

the superpowers, but there was a corresponding psychological mood, which from our point of view was completely unrealistic, which helped to stand, and ukraine in this sense fits exactly into this context . those, who thought realistically in ee march. or in april of the 22nd year, turned out to be, well, actually, from today's point of view, those who sometimes sowed some kind of panic, then they were uh... so defeatists like that, and those who thought unrealistically, turned out to be the winners, and ukraine turned out, yes that we, we, we are not the first, we are not the first to find ourselves in this situation, but this is a very, very delicate matter, where it is important not to overdose on this

unreasonable optimism, but i would like to talk about the very concept of... victory, because now many people say that the concept victory, relatively speaking, in ukraine, the concept of even victory in russia, the concept of victory in the west, these are different concepts of victory from the point of view of the culture of victory, if you will, because both russia and ukraine, they were brought up in soviet times on this concept of comprehensive victory , when the winner takes all, this is by and large a myth of the second world war, which has long since become less relevant for the west, but remained relevant for soviet and post-soviet societies, and the west sees victory. if you will, comfortable conditions for the winning country change with the country that concedes, and for moscow or kyiv, victory is when you achieve your goals, which you set before yourself at the beginning of the campaign, the idea of ​​victory depends not only on the country,

it also depends on time and ideas , in which there is a war going on, and it can change depending on how the war, how the war moves, i can say that the basic basis of victory can be that ukraine achieves those goals, or does not give russia achieve the goals it wanted to achieve, i.e. ukraine survives as independent country. and not bantustan, which is dependent, dependent on russia, and can protect its independence and ensure economic, economic development, borders are an extremely important thing, and, but discussions, disputes, war abroad, can last,

last not only for years, decades , does not exist today. there is a peace agreement between russia and japan through the kuril islands, that is, this issue is postponed in time, but what cannot be postponed in time by a state that would think, believe in its victory, it is, of course, preservation of its political system, preservation of its independence and the ability to provide for its population, economically, culturally, and on other levels, for me, this means that victory for ukraine should not be determined today within the framework of borders, within the framework of the ability to protect these principles the things that i was talking about, the only way to protect it in the longer term is not

for six months, not for a year, not for a year and a half, for the longer term. this is the integration of ukraine into the security, economic, political and cultural space, which is defined by such organizations like nato and organizations like the european union. so, is it important to go to the borders of 1991, certainly. i believe that any other long-term solution cannot happen. at the expense of this fundamental thing, but if we talk about medium-term prospects, i would put first the protection of our sovereignty, freedom of elections within the framework of western structures and security and economic. how realistic is it that the west

will one day agree to the euro-atlantic integration of ukraine not declaratively, but rather that on the territory of our country. this is the famous fifth article, we heard the words of president biden that the condition for ukraine's admission to nato is ukraine's victory, and again, not a specified victory, but the kind of victory that the west sees. i have already mentioned that the great powers have not won a single major war in the last, last 100 years, if we talk about wars with less, less prepared, less economically and militarily strong countries, and in the end , the west, the west reacts to the fact that the rebound takes place outside the bounds of the event. big ones states respond to changes in the world, and because of this they continue to be great states, due to the fact that they adequately assess the realities. no one foresaw

the possibility of the baltic countries joining nato, but there was a will on the part of the political elites and the majority of the voters of these countries, and the moment came when it became the same for the west. it is acceptable, in the end even, even profitable, that is, it is very important to know what our goal is, what is on our agenda not only for one day, for one year, for several decades, and that's when things happen if we change our bearings, er every, not just every day, and we did that before, but even... every five years, well then things can happen, but, but more likely they won't, so it's, it's a long-term thing, a reshaping

of the world map, and in the end, whoever has the most patience and the most can maintain focus and mobilize resources to achieve the first goal, a certain goal, will win. in your opinion, when we talk about ukrainian statehood, the experience of the ukrainian people's republic should be taken into account, of the ukrainian state in 1918-1920, of course experience, experience must be used, the main experience for me, that is, everyone looks at events from a different perspective, maybe different, different lessons, so to speak. from this, but for me the most important thing was that the ukrainian political forces

were fighting each other, that is , a civil war between representatives of different political parties was also taking place in ukraine. the result was that each of these political parties lost, and here is this unity - this is the main... lesson for me, which would be the most important for ukraine today. well, but unity should not just be declared, but if you want to be institutionalized, this institutionalized unity is still quite far away, it seems to me. unity, unity must be such that it works and is able to preserve the space in which further political struggle would be possible, would be real, and if... unity does not meet these criteria, then it simply does not exist, it does not mean , that it will never be, it means that it is over it is necessary to work, and responsibly, and this is

a call to all parties at this moment of the dialogue, because if this dialogue between the parties turns into a multilateral conflict, then we have lost, then you can forget about any definition of victory, geographical, political, temporary, any. well, we are talking about the fifth anniversary of the second round of the presidential elections in ukraine, the last elections to date, and then it seemed that it was such a deep split between the supporters of the new president volodymyr zelensky and supporters of his predecessor petro poroshenko, the year 2022 was supposed to level these differences, but after 5 years we are again in a situation where a large part of society does not understand the other and in fact people have a completely different idea about... what the state should look like after the war? eh, of course, what is most important is that

through blood, great trials, ukraine was obtained as a single country, as a single society, this is a historically unprecedented fact, not only if you look at... the history of ukraine of the 20th century , but even on history of ukraine after 1991. that is, we have learned something, we are doing something right. and so it is important not only to work on mistakes, but also to understand what we suddenly did right and build, build on it. so i, as a historian, of course, experts in political science, anthropologists can look. otherwise, i, as a historian, look at this level of unity far, far from problem-free, as an unprecedented

period in history. in ukrainian history, it is necessary, it must be seized, it must be developed, how to do it, well, not for me boston is to tell the ukrainians, i think, it is in ukraine that these decisions should be located, to what extent do you think western countries are currently interested in this ukrainian institutional capacity, how can they influence it? they are of course interested in ukraine speaking with one voice, for them it greatly simplifies the tasks, whatever tasks they set before themselves, and my understanding is that we do not know everything, of course, about the history of the last 20-30 years, but the west can be blamed for anything during this period from

budapest memorandum. to the bucharest summit, but i am not aware of the fact that somehow the event worked for a real division of ukraine. the west, the united states, and european allies were interested in this unity, perhaps they could have done a better job, approached somehow differently, but there is a politically united ukraine, solidarity in the sense of solidarity between different political forces. today it is in the interests not only of ukraine, but also of the west, because in the end, what the americans are doing western european and central european countries also send a significant part of their budget, which they could really use there for some social projects and other things, they send it to ukraine, they

do not want ukraine to... ukraine actually somehow lost, lost either on the battlefield or internally as a result of political political turmoil in our country. well, this seems to me to be an important remark that should end our conversation, that victory in the war should not end in defeat within the country and strife between those who have passed through military trials. this also happens in history, we know many times. yes, yes, unfortunately, it does, and although this may not be a perfect comparison, we see the story of afghanistan, which in the end was able to virtually defeat all, all external enemies, but was never able to unite, and when united, united in the worst possible way. thank you, thank you, mr. sergey. thank you. for this conversation, serhii plokhiy,

historian, professor at harvard university. they also talked with him about these dangers which exist for ukraine and ukrainian society in this difficult period for the life of our state, and about these challenges, and about the fact that it is necessary to carry out not only work on mistakes, but also work on achievements, because only such joint work provides that important national unity, which by and large is a guarantee not just of victory in the war, but of the very survival of the ukrainian nation, perhaps in the most difficult historical period in the life of ukrainians, probably since the second world war, when the territory of our country was also battles, cities were destroyed, both military personnel and civilians died, infrastructure was destroyed, all this we are experiencing and will experience now in our historical time. thank you for being with us on this broadcast, i wish you all the best,

we will win. and peace to you, friends, good luck. espresso-interview on tv channel vlasne espresso. here we talk about the most important events of the week, but also discuss the most interesting things that relate to retro'. prospective questions, here we are discussing actual events that happened once, that were happening in ukraine, and what our future also depends on. today we will talk about a very sad date in ukrainian history: april 26 every year.