>> harris: and we have breaking news now. the defense attorneys for former president donald trump have just wrapped up their third day of cross examination of the convicted liar, the star witness for the prosecution, michael cohen. and it has been another key big day. earlier today, cohen admitted to stealing from the trump organization. or, as my guest, matt whitaker, said last hour, embezzlement. cohen also lied about trump to congress and secretly recorded their conversations. we knew all that, and now the defense is hoping all of these details, along with the new one of how he was embezzling cash from the trump organization, will leave jurors with a single conclusion: the prosecution's star witness cannot be trusted. this is "outnumbered" trade i'm here with my coasts, emily compagno and kayleigh mcenany in fox news contributor and editor in chief of the

federalists, mollie hemingway. and 32nd undersecretary of the army and attorney patrick j murphy. for today, it has been a devastating stretch for the state's star witness, michael cohen. here's the final witness praises are going to end on this messy stew. and lawyers for trump have been released going after his credibility. you can do it with a play hammer. you wouldn't have to hit it very hard. he lies as he breeds. jurors could begin deliberating as soon as next week. he heard from former president trump just before he was entering the courtroom today, he claimed the entire case is a political attack by the biden doj. let's watch. >> this comes from the doj and the white house. this all comes from the doj and the white house. it is an attack on biden, who is

mentally unfit, to be the president of this country. it is an attack on his political opponent. that's all it is. the last four weeks, most of it should never have even been brought up. on top of that, there is crime. and we go on day after day. i will be able to make it. until new hampshire, sorry, i won't be able to make it. i'm sitting in an ice box all day. >> harris: patrick, why did the district attorney spent all of this time and all of this money on this case? why did he bring this case? >> patrick: you got to play the cards you're dealt. >> harris: but they weren't dealt, because everybody had passed, even his predecessor. everyone had passed on this in six years. so why did he bring the case? >> patrick: i think he felt him even if he can't bring a conviction, he'll bring it forward. and we will see if he gets a conviction or. but the star witness was 12

years with donald trump. >> harris: he was stealing from the organization. >> patrick: i know, and he's a bad person, and that's what he's a convicted felon. >> harris: would you have brought this case? >> patrick: probably not. >> cheryl: they have talked about it repeatedly that alvin bragg can paint in the city that he would go after president trump, and he's going after trump. is it a mess? yes. did other jurisdictions reject this even take it on? yes. now we are? this morning katie cherkasky was on "fox & friends" and said the prosecution is now going to have to come back, which they now are, and they will have to rehab michael cohen, their star witness. this is a mess from start to finish. my only caveat i have to adhere, this is a new york judge, a new york c courtroom, and your jury. ask myself every day when i started to watch the coverage of the brilliant ladies of "outnumbered" and of course "the faulkner focus," he could still be guilty because this is

new york. can you get a fair trial if you are donald trump in new york? i don't know. but michael cohen is a mess. >> harris: let's lean into the politics of this. the president talked about being where he is in court instead of campaigning. he wasn't happy about that. that was just a few hours ago. let's watch. >> i'm here instead of campaigning. as you know, i was supposed to be in a very different state this morning, and they decided to call it early. and it looks like we are going to have a very big gap, and it's going to be determined in court. but we are here about an hour early today. i was supposed to be making a speech for political purposes. i'm not allowed to have anything to do with politics, because i'm sitting in a very freezing cold courtroom for the last four weeks. it's very unfair. >> harris: wow. so he's really breaking it down, mollie, in terms of where he could be.

but people want that you can't have. human nature. the more he talks whenever he does, they are thirsty for it. >> mollie: are an ascending moment in american history. we've never experienced anything like this before. this is something we usually associate with the soviet union or venezuela or third world country, where one political party is trying to imprison in bank at the top political opponent, keeping him off the ballot, putting him through show trials, all sorts of trumped up charges, all for political gain. it doesn't seem to be working that well for democrats, but it is a show trial. there is no actual crime or evidence to support the crime. the star witness might be the worst witness we've ever seen in american history, and yet the whole point of the show trial is to secure a quick and easy conviction. that's why it's happening in new york with a very biased jury. maybe there is someone brave enough to withstand all of the hatred that democrats have toward trump, to say this is not a conviction we are going to have. but that's a huge thing to ask.

>> cheryl: it only takes one juror and then that's it. >> patrick: right, and is a jury of your peers. but i wouldn't say it's a show trial. i wouldn't have brought as a prosecutor, but i was on the casually were going through jury selection. it was a fair trial throughout. we will see what happens. >> kayleigh: the facts don't match the law. in a never before done way, "the new york times" research the cases in town never in the history of new york how they brought charges on a federal election. see you guys can decide. unprecedented, is that there were not fair? michael cohen ended his cross-examination he was asked if he was working on the third book. he said yes. he was asked if he consider running for congress. he said yes, because he has the best name recognition out there. he was asked if he has a financial interest in the case. he says "yes, sir," though he wouldn't say whether or not he had interest in an innocent verdict or a guilty one. michael cohen -- put yourself in their shoes.

this is the one piece of evidence, they are asked to believe michael cohen. and human nature is going to have to, in their mind, square michael cohen 1.0 with michael cohen 2.0. he called hope hicks and said "i miss trump." michael cohen 1.0 said, i wouldn't say i was obsessed, but i respect him greatly. he is someone who said he would take a bullet for the president. something happens in 2018 it clicks, 200 podcast episodes. not one does he not mention trump. michael cohen 2.0, selling pictures of trump behind bars, and a t-shirt. 2.0, the paraphernalia that says config 45, send them to the big house, not the white house. how do you square these two? not to mention all is lying. this is someone with a motive, and next to grind, much like stormy daniels. hopefully one juror out there sees this guy -- i have a lot a reasonable doubt when it comes to michael cohen michael cohen. >> harris: when you look at the statistics, new york is not the same place it was even 60

months ago let alone six weeks ago. it just isn't. when you look at people suffering here, it's one of the reasons why trump thinks he can win here. we will get into that a little bit later, but why new york is suddenly on the map for a politician atop the ticket, who is on the right. really and truly -- i love how you put that. i wrote that down, michael cohen 1.0/2.0. he also said he stole from the trump organization. i know you are a prosecutor, i i do know that even you could do this job. their job isn't proving the case first, their job is to prove the star witness is worth saving. as i said last hour, they've got to fix the fixer. >> patrick: and he was a fixer for 12 years. i am not a fan of 1.0 or 2.0. it's going to be 3.0 if he runs for congress. he's a bad person and he's been a bad person his whole life. he ran for office in new york before as a councilman.

>> harris: you think alvin bragg wouldn't go after him for the cell and he just admitted to? maybe they had a really sweet immunity deal. >> patrick: he got convicted before and he had a 3-year sentence. >> harris: he said he sold on the organization. >> patrick: and i think that's a different crime. >> harris: apparently don't think they'll go after him, because you just said he could run for congress. >> patrick: no, i'm saying he said he wanted to run for congress. but in the constitution is called double jeopardy. it wouldn't apply because of the different crime. so he might be back in a courtroom sometime soon. see when you think alvin bragg would do that? [laughs] >> the only thing they could save him is a a alan weisel bern that's not going to happen. this is a huge >> kayleigh: this is a huge injustice. it takes one juror and i believe there's going to be one. i know we are in manhattan but my prediction is a hung jury.

it should be an acquittal. >> harris: statistically speaking you will get somebody on that jury. i have a lot of faith in the people who sit on american juries. >> patrick: that's why i got salty early. i wouldn't call it a show trial. i wouldn't have done it but the process is playing out. democracy is a messy process. but we don't even know what the verdict is. >> harris: i agree with you, mollie. i think the impetus was all about the show. but i get what you're saying. we are following day four of michael cohen's testimony. remember, one day with the prosecution who probably had a little heartburn, wish they hadn't started this party, and three days of cross-examination which have just now wrapped up. so now is the prosecution's turn again. minute-by-minute from the courtroom. remember, your shorthand is the box on the right side of your screen with some catch-up information and some color from the courtroom, supporting the former president, so on and so forth. we are right back after

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>> i don't think there's one person that says this trial is legitimate, and everybody is talking about the judge. the judge shouldn't be doing this trial. he is conflicted. he's the most conflicted judge probably in the history of the court system, and everyone knows what i'm talking about. thank you very much. >> will you testify, mr. trump? >> kayleigh: that was president trump not revealing whether he will testify in his criminal trial. right now the prosecution is continuing to question their star witness, michael cohen. he ended his cross-examination, i should say, and the prosecution is about to engage in the redirect. but as we do that, we are fast

approaching the point where the defense could put the former president on the stand, despite legal experts questioning why they would. trump's own counsel say they haven't come to a decision on it yet. could we see the already unprecedented trial take a dramatic turn? i think every legal expert, the consensus is no, that he should not take the stand. he will not. and that is nothing personally pertaining to trump, it is pertaining to anyone. >> patrick: he is presumed innocent until proven guilty, so absolutely not. i know he says in the media, he said it in florida that he was going to testify. he's not going to testify. his lawyers are not going to advise him to testify. he didn't testify or sit down with special counsel robert mueller, he didn't testify for january 6th. you want testify the criminal trial. there's no way. his lawyers are pretty sharp lawyers. there's no way in hell they let

him testify this week. >> kayleigh: he did testify in a civil trial, and you have a former federal prosecutor for the same office as alvin bragg, she said from the witness stand trump would have a chance to tell his own story which could be riveting to the jury and also humanize him. so that's the counterargument. >> cheryl: alex murdaugh took the stand in his own defense and that didn't work out for him. there is an opinion piece in "the hill," an interesting point about how this could be very bad for donald trump as he took the stand in his own defense. he admitted knowing of the reimbursement in a tweet and in court papers, so if he didn't actually spend time with stormy daniels, why make the path in the first place? $130,000 is not its ugly trump change even for donald trump. there's too many holes that he

could end up going down if he does take the stand. so i don't think he will. at the same time, it's on the prosecution and this redirect, and the rehab of michael cohen. if they can't turn this around right now, i'm not really sure -- the defense can pounce and i think they will. >> kayleigh: mollie, the breadth they could ask them to be large. he saw with the stormy daniels situation, they said they don't want to go into intimate details, but he let her go into intimate details. in my view it wasn't the problem of the defense. they allowed it to go there despite saying he shouldn't go there. with him on the stand he would have to answer those same questions and rehash a fact pattern -- >> mollie: i'm glad it was mentioned he didn't participate in some of the earlier scams that have been done. the russia collusion hoax, the quite literal show trial run by liz cheney. that would indicate that he probably is smart enough to not do it here. he went on the stand and said good morning and it was good

afternoon, alvin bragg is the type of person who would prosecute him for making a false statement. the idea that he would open himself up to that when there has been shown that this year prosecution has no legitimacy whatsoever, and the amount of just tyrannical hatred on display here in new york city, he would be foolish testify so i doubt he would do it. >> kayleigh: people are saying, harris, the defense should rest. when your head, just run with it. >> harris: i don't know why you would put in the middle of a potential victory, your client up there. i don't know why you would do that, why he would tempt fate. the prosecution right now is drowning. so they are looking for a life ring, and they are going to hang onto every word that trump would sound the stand. not only is it not necessary, it is legally -- in this case, because it is a presidential election year, is political. you don't just poke the bear just because you think you can.

attorneys for him to the job they needed to do. the prosecution is trying to fix the fixer. let him try to fix the fixer and just watch, as molly said, the show. i want to get this in because on redirect right now cohen is trying to explain why he took the extra $30,000 he skimmed off of some money that he was supposed to pay bills for on behalf of the trump organization. he was paying himself a little side hustle. he says he had been telling trump about $30,000 for a long time. "i was angry because of the reduction in the bonus and i just felt like it was almost like self-help." >> mollie: he should stop talking. >> harris: let him talk! trump doesn't need to talk. >> mollie: this is going from bad to worse. >> harris: this is our team inside the courtroom setting out a play-by-play, and it reads like a novel. >> patrick: about poking the bear real quick, donald trump attacked the judge again so he's already had violations of the gag order.

>> kayleigh: he's allowed to talk about the judge. >> patrick: he talked about some other things. >> harris: if you were listening, he commented this morning, "i can't talk about everything." he knows where the lines are drawn. he does. at least he was cognizant of it this morning. >> kayleigh: will continue to follow. as they say, when you are explaining your losing, and michael cohen is doing a lot of explaining. we'll bring you the breaking news villains from the courtroom all our, and stick around. the plan to enact deep blue new york state is next. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need... ...without the stuff you don't. so, here's to now. boost. pain was keeping me off my game. and now i'm winning again. blue-emu is the powerful relief i need. shop our expanded family of products at major online retailers.

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choose advil liqui-gels for faster, stronger and longer-lasting relief than tylenol rapid release gels because advil targets pain at the source of inflammation. so for faster pain relief, advil the pain away. >> kayleigh: we are monitoring trump's trial as we await a lunch break and potential remarks from former president trump. right now the prosecution is in redirect with michael cohen and we will take you there if we hear from the former president. meanwhile, trump is gearing up for another court campaign ev event, and listen to this, he will head up to the bronx on

thursday for what may be his most audacious campaign stop yet. for an idea of how deep blue it is, here is the reaction from the democrat who represents where trump will visit. "the south bronx has no greater enemy than donald trump." but over the weekend we saw a different story. new yorkers came out in support of trump, something you would never expect to see in new york city, let alone the bronx. mollie, i know the trump campaign is bullish on winning new york. biden carried the state with 61% of the vote. but i think this is more about winning a demographic. he carried the black vote 75%. we saw on "the new york times" sienna poll, that donald trump is winning 23% of the black vote. putting that into historical perspective, here is "the new york times," no friend of trump. mr. trump also wins 20% of black voters, a tally that will be the highest level of black support

for any republican presidential candidate since the enactment of the civil rights act of 1964. >> mollie: anything about what happened this weekend. you have president biden going and giving a commencement address at a black men's col college. the speech he gave was just so dark. it was so angry, something very difficult for a lot of people to hear. you compare that with what happens when you go to a trump rally, which is very joyful, celebratory, very much in favor of america. and you can find with that the fact that people remember what it was like under a trump presidency with the economy firing on all cylinders, people actually being able to dig out from some of the holes they were in. then the biden presidency, which is just chaos and sadness all around, whether it's foreign policy, the economy, border, crime, what have you. i think it's very astute what you are saying, that it's not likely that trump will win estate as new york, particularly with how it has caused so many republicans to move out of the

state in recent years. but it is a great way to take advantage of what's happening for trump right now being kept in new york. >> kayleigh: i take great umbrage with -- we read about him being the enemy of the people of this district, but they said donald trump is dismantling the social safety net. i don't think is any bigger social safety net than a good roaring economy that benefits everyone. this is inflation numbers, what people are staring down. this is why i believe he's winning a lot of the black vote. 21% is about grocery prices. 18.37% is the increase in shelter costs. 38.4% is increasing energy costs. this was in "the wall street journal" this weekend and my mouth dropped open when i saw it. the first graph, this is nominal value of your household net worth for each presidency. he seated in red and blue. but let's adjust for inflation. flip over. what happens? it falls almost to flatline. this is how people are feeling.

their net worth is down, inflation is up. they are hurting under this president. >> patrick: there are hurting because of the global pandemic, kayleigh. >> kayleigh: what about the trillions of spending? >> patrick: right, that is what we have to get under control, no doubt about it. get us out of the hole we are in as a nation. that's what i get pissed off when i hear congressman say that he's the enemy of the people. we are all americans. we can disagree on this couch and in america, but calling the enemy of the bronx, that is wrong. for either side to do it, for the record. but on inflation, there's no doubt it was at 9%, it's going down. it was released last week that its 3.2%. and 2% is the target goal. the people have been through the wringer. global pandemic, inflation, energy crisis. i got gas in new jersey. >> harris: did you go to the

rally with trump? >> i came from there this morning. see what it's okay, i know you're a democrat. [laughter] just say no! >> patrick: i was not there. >> harris: we found out the zip code you are rolling in! >> patrick: real quick, one last thing. don't deny the fact that the stock market is at an all-time high. the unemployment is at an all-time low. we've got to be fair and balanced here, come on. >> mollie: i'll give you fair and balanced as the new yorker on the couch right now. i lived in the city for 20 years. 2020 and 2024 are very different, and that includes the bronx. i bet you donald trump get great reception at that rally and the bronx, because it was a gift from the democrats to donald trump. you've got over 100,000 migrants that have flooded into york, which new yorkers are paying for, average new yorkers in the bronx, and you've got crime through the roof in the city of

new york and the people of the bronx and queens have had the worst brunt of said crime. you know what? i bet he gets a great reception. >> harris: let's hear from the former president from this morning about winning new york. watch. >> today the target is 68. tomorrow it may be a democrat. after that, who knows? the criminal justice system is on trial in new york. it's making new york state -- i love the state and the people of the state. i'm running hard in new york. i think you're going to win new york. but is making new york and our judicial system. >> harris: he's got to be excited. he gets a twofer here. he's been to harlem, south bronx. let me tell you more about the economic breakdown for south bronx. the situation is dire there. the constitution , it constitutes the poorestconn

america where the poverty rate is 36.9% and the severe poverty rate is 16.6%. you don't like the name calling, so let's just call the policies the work of an enemy. those policies must feel like the devil is pressed against these people. those policies of joe biden. so when trump goes there, there is a high population of people of color, biden is losing in that category. there's a high population, sadly, the people who are struggling mightily. how is biden doing on the economy that he can actually articulate himself? not well. he can't even crawl out of the "i don't understand why inflation keeps making the prices go up even though inflation is coming down." oh, my goodness, send them back to third grade. south bronx is going to be interesting. if they show up they are, biden has a deeper problem then he has right now, and that's a man facing all these charges is beating him. >> kayleigh: thousands in new jersey, thousands in new york. we'll be watching.

thursday. meanwhile, we are monitoring those doors perform president trump's new york courtroom. the court could break for lunch at any moment and trump could speak on his way out. if he does, we will bring it to you live. coming up, brian claypool is here to break down the setting new testimony in the case. next. frustrated by skin tags? dr. scholl's has the breakthrough you've been waiting for. now there's an easier-to-use at home skin tag remover, clinically proven to remove skin tags safely in as little as one treatment. ah, these bills are crazy. she has no idea she's sitting on a goldmine. well she doesn't know that if she owns a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more she can sell all or

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>> harris: the pressure is on the prosecution, because it was a big day for the defense. former president trump's new york criminal trial. the prosecution's star witness, as we've been talking about, michael cohen, is still on the witness stand. he is now being questioned by prosecutors for a second round. they're trying to cleanup on aisle seven. i don't know if their mop is big enough.

earlier today michael cohen admitted to stealing some $60,000 from the trump organization. i read you moments ago when he set on the stand, that he thought it was self-help because he was upset that his bonus had been cut. and actually told trump, according to our journalists in the courtroom, he had told trump about the 30 grand, and it got bigger. there is more than one incident. criminal defense attorney brian claypool. when he testifies to new information today, that he had actually stolen from the defendant's company, what was your response? >> harris, great to be back with you. the obituary for the case was written last thursday when cohen couldn't say a word about that october 20202016 phone call indicating president trump, and this morning you have new evidence the prosecution's star witness has lied, pocketed money that was supposed to go to a

tech company called red finch. i'm surprised there hasn't been an evacuation in that courtroom because of all the smoke from the prosecution's case blowing up. this case should be over. if you are looking at it purely from strictly a legal standpoint, there is still not a shred of evidence that links former president trump to commanding anybody to falsify financial, let alone to interfere with the election. >> harris: you have been down this road. the judge's instructions we know are going to be really important in all of this. and i'm wondering, what is beneficial for either side and what is damaging for either side? let's start with the defense from those jury instructions? what could we see? >> the jury instructions are going to be super important. if there aren't questions on their involving, for example -- let's say, did former president trump have an affair with stormy daniels? that's completely irrelevant, we have her days of testimony about

that. there's a question about that. if there's questions about his character or the "access hollywood" tape, all of that is relevant, character assassination. but if you get into questions like that, it's not good news perform president trump. that's going to form the basis for an appeal. what is going to help form president trump are two basic questions for the jury. if you hear any evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that trump commanded somebody to falsify financials? there should be one question, harris. if the answer is no, they don't have to answer any further questions. >> harris: you said there would be two. what is the second question? >> the second question should be, if, for some reason, this jury finds that trump had any involvement in falsifying financials, the second question would be, did former president trump do that with an intent to interfere with 2016 election? but you only get to the second

question if the jury answered yes to the first question. >> harris: got it. >> that we have seen there's no evidence of that. in fact, the only thing proven here is that cohen is the greatest liar of all time. that's what he is in this case. >> harris: that is good. talk about some merch on the case, i think you got something going there. >> that could be a t-shirt when this is over. >> harris: brian claypool, always a pleasure to have you on. thank you very much. mollie hemingway, the glutes. greatest liar of all time. >> mollie: it fits with him. the second question has to be that they have to determine, if this happened, it happen for no other reason in the world other than the election. that would be really high barrier if this were a fair trial and a jury we could trust, if this prosecution were in any way making sense. there was that guy, mike pomerantz, he came out a federal

retirement to come up with something out of this office that could be used against donald trump. i keep thinking about what he said. he didn't really have a classic victim. also known as, we didn't have a victim. our star witness was literally michael cohen, one of the worst people. so he talked about it and admitted the trouble they had. they decide to make this case anyway, and it is glowing at precisely as you would expect, but again, everyone is acting like this is a real trial with a real crime and a real judge. none of that is true. everything about this is completely corrupted. some people keep thinking there's no way any jury would have her conviction. the real question they are being asked is, do you hate donald trump? in new york, the odds are good that they will have enough people to say yes. >> harris: that's one of the reasons i thought perhaps they let stormy daniels drone on before the point it was anywhere germane to the case are helpful to the prosecution. she got to see how much she hates donald trump, and perhaps

that was to connect with members of the jury. as you are pointing out, we don't know, but it's an interesting premise. >> patrick: to brian's point, every case, when you try a case, you have the mens rea. no one is doubting the fact of the affair. >> harris: although she signed a letter that said the hush money was not paid to her. except for that part. january 2018. i have a copy. >> patrick: right. but the fact is this, that this is why this is the worst of the four indictments brought on against far president trump. this is the worst of the four cases, and that's why it is unfortunately where we are right now. that's why it's going to conflate all the other issues that are out there. it's more important to the american people. the classified documents, generally six. it is what it is. >> harris: some of those cases have been delayed indefinitely, a couple of them. that should be interesting, too. >> patrick: because there's an

election going on. vt i would just say, an interesting moment happen right now, where the prosecution asked michael cohen, did you plead guilty to a federal election commission violation? he said yes, it was objected, but the judge let them say that. this is one of the big problems he let him say this in the judge says you can't infer that trump is guilty, but you can use it to assess cohen's credibility. as lydia who points out, this is why we need someone to point out -- especially if the judge allows the jury to hear this. >> patrick: did not realize that cohen got convicted for three years and one of them was because of the campaign violation. >> kayleigh: that he pled guilty to. >> harris: real quick. >> cheryl: this is coming down to, counts. the misdemeanor, again, the statute of limitations has already run out, that's why they went for the filling in the election interference charge. i'm still looking for the proof, listening, watching, reading for the proof and the falsification

of business records. this is coming down to michael cohen on one side and donald trump and allen weisselberg on the other side. if you don't believe michael cohen, they don't have a case. >> harris: there in a lunch break now. i wonder what they're having. >> mollie: there's some good chinese places downtown. >> harris: i wonder if there's any crow for anyone on the priest democrats kitchen side. [laughter] they break until about 2:00 p.m. eastern. we will you know an update if there is one on that. but we will go with that because that's normally what happens. the judge got started very early today. they've had a couple of short breaks and now this longer run. stay with us. we are back in a moment. no fingersticks needed. all with the world's smallest and thinnest sensor. manage your diabetes with more confidence and lower your a1c. try it for free at freestylelibre.us

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sets of demands. trump says he wants to do four debates. president biden says, case closed, he only wants to do two. the president does not want a live audience. maybe biden has seen the polls. but trump wants biden to agree to a drug test. >> i just want to debate this guy. but, you know -- and i'm going to demand a drug test, by the way. i really am. [applause] i don't want him coming in like the state of the union! he was high as a kite. >> kayleigh: harris, the state of the union people said he was at his best, full of energy. >> harris: that is what some people said. [laughs] some people also said that it wasn't real, because otherwise he would be like that all the time. and there are questions. we tested for coronavirus during the pandemic. i don't really care about testing. if they want to agree to that, that's fine. it's not the presidential debate commission that's on this anyway

setting the rules, it's these two men and whatever network they're working with. so i think the first one is on one of our competitors, so they will get together and try to agree. i did find it interesting today, though -- actually, it was late yesterday -- that biden's team has said no more debates because they've been all these talks about, telemundo got this through nbc, could they have more? and they said no, the game was over. i thought that was fascinating. are we playing a game or trying to service the american people with a good debate? so it might be one, two, and done. it might be none and done. we really don't know. i can tell you this quickly: based on what james carville and other people on the left have said out of anger and outrage, mostly, about how the trial is not going their way -- he said, "we've tried everything!" which is the quiet part out loud, i suppose. but based on all of that, i'm not certain there might even be a first debate, because i'm sure they were all waiting to see if

they would be a conviction. had there been a conviction, biden could say, i'm not going to debate a convict. he would have an automatic. it looks like that's not going to happen -- and it does come at this point, but we don't know, we will cover the news as it happens -- let's see if that first debate happens. >> kayleigh: cheryl, they were supposed to be three debates and they winnowed it down to two debates. in that way, they probably think they have the victory. the white house was asked about the drug test suggestion. here is what andrew bates said in part. "it is telling that republican officials are unable to stop announcing how intimidated they remained by the state of the union performance, but after losing every public and private negotiation with president biden after seeing him succeed where they failed to cross the board, it tracks that those same republican officials mistake confidence for a drug," he said. >> cheryl: i agree with harris. i don't really care about the drug testing issue. but i found interesting in the political reporting -- i'm glad you brought that up -- they sourced a bunch of biden officials off the record,

of course, and they said they all agreed on one thing, no audience for these debates. and they say it is because the biggest concern is that any audience noise would disadvantage biden, who sometimes has trouble hearing. and they also wanted to ensure that there was a clean tempo and cadence. they wanted note interruption. the mics were going to be cut, et cetera. >> kayleigh: cnn said the debate qualifications are meeting a 15% threshold in four credible general election polls, and being eligible on ballads i can get you to 270. some people thought this would ice out rfk, who the biden team signaled he is part of the agreement. he's not involved but cnn says these are the qualifications. rfk said he'll make that stage. >> mollie: that could make things very interesting. i think the reason biden decided to move out of the debate commission is precisely to ice out rfk jr. he knew the standards they had

set up did say, if you met certain qualifications by a certain point in june, he would be allowed in these debates. so biden was thinking, if i can keep enough the debate stage -- because he's very worried about what that will do to his vote total, because i think a lot of democrats are looking for options other than president biden. and not bad for donald trump, either, because he also has some voters who might be looking for a third option. but if rfk jr. can get on the stage, that will definitely make things interesting. >> kayleigh: let me just say, trump has been very clear, this is a democrat we are talking about. we saw his abortion comments, not in any way conservative. we have seen his energy policy. but biden is going to try to frame this guy is not a democrat. how is he going to do it? >> patrick: if rfk jr. gets on the ballot he will take from both these candidates. at the end of the day, it's going to be an epic rematch. four years ago we had two debates come of this year we have two debates. it's going to happen. get your popcorn ready this june and september because it's going

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ask your doctor about caplyta. find savings and support at caplyta.com. >> news that has been breaking all morning coming out of the courtroom of new york versus trump and his criminal trial and it has been fascinating to watch a man who we knew was going to lie on the stand, the star witness for the prosecution michael cohen, donald trump's former lawyer and so-called fixer. but to hear him now talk about stealing, embezzling. 60 grand from the trump organization. that took it to a whole new level. they are in a lunch break now for a bit and for now we will take a break and hand you over to "america reports." >> what's missing? a crime. there is no crime. they go through all of this stuff and there was nothing wrong. this case should be dismissed. it should have never been brought. and the judge is h