exxon mobile. and energy, you got to be in there. >> and you got to be on fox and stick with fox. david is on forbes on fox right now. new tooks hikes. from cash strapped states. new york and california is the very latest. will all of this hiking hammer america's recovery? hi, everyone. i am david asbin and welcome to forbes on fox. welcome steve forbes. and mark and elizabeth and we'll start with the boss, steve, is all of the tax hiking going to affect the commempt >> sure it is. you put tax on people who create jobbs you are hurt. thankfully you are able to move from state to state and you will see migration to

texas which are hospitable to people who want to get things done. you tax more people you get less good things. >> rickk agreedd to be here in person to face off. >> more than arm's length. >> i think it is wrong. it makes for great rhetoric. if you look at the numbers. this is never the case. you can look at the fact since 1980, tax rate in the united states is going down and you know what else and going down? average annual increase in the economy. it simplely doesn't work out. there are charts and graphs to prew it. >> you can use stat to prove anything, right? >> lookk at what a bipartisan crowdd did and what happened in maryland and new york. maryland tried to hike the taxes.

one in seven left of the state. same story for california and new york. voters in california rejected the same increases that jerry brown wants and lookk at new york. new york lostt upper brackket people who create jobs in the state . same story for jerss jerss as well >> what about the over all economy. you think it will affect all of the states raising tax at least new york, and california? >> i think look, no one likes tax increases and taxes definitelyy have an economic impact. but 26 states or more have big deficits. you can't justt cut to the bottom. you are going to have to raise taxes. even the patron saint of tax cutting ronald reagan recognized that and put through largest tax increases for a president. he knew they had to raise taxes. >> he also lowered taxings quite a bit.

>> i think steve forbes is the patron saint of lower taxes. i think you have your history wrongg there. >> they are cutting my taxes. >> victoria, what do you think? >> we are talking about two states here. but you are asking about the larger impliications. there is a sense that we are not fixing the fundmental problems and instead of fixing overnment spending and pension plans that look insane. everyone can agree on this except the people receiving those pensions and instead of fixing the problemings, we are raising taxs and putting a band aid on it. and what gerry brownn doesn't understand, that one percent that he wants to tax pays 50 percent of california state income taxes. should it be 90 percent? you are lifing in a world of taxation. >> we'll deal with the overreliance on that one percent in a second.

mike, people do have the option of moving. there is a guy named richard vettter in ohio university. he found 1100 people a day including sundays and holidays moved out to high tax states moved to florida or texas. >> that's rightt. that is the millionaire's tax in new york state. it is reallyy for incomes of $250,000 or more. it is not just millionaires. $250,000 for a small business owner who has a subchapter s is a very small business and these are the big job creators. you are hurting the small business and individuals that create. >> they can't move. >> yeahh, rick, vicki bringgs up point. if you rely too heavilyy on the one percent. california paid 40 or 50 percent you are in trouble. if they move, you lost revenue. >> the reality they are not

moving. in california, only thing makes people move is surf being bad. you are worrying about taxes and i will give you something to worry about. if we continue pass the continuous of the pay roll tax. we'll take money out of the people. >> let's keep it on tomic. in illinois they lost 365,000 people and losing billion in revenue. but the states are not so state of the art when it come to oversight with the war chest. and they are spending money justt to lose money. that's what is going on. >> hold on, hold on. the boss speaks. steve, go ahead. >> low tax takes over time, those states do better than high tax states. before the economic crisis, the u.s. growth rate was 50 or 75 percent higher than western

europe. >> case closed. >> i can solve your problemm. raise the taxes in all of the places that need the money and they will move to loww tax states that have no people. >> move to the greatt plains in the midwest. >> what do you think, steve? >> why should we abandon california? but tax is driving people out. i know people would move out if they could. >> vickk toria, what about that suggestion. >> you will see a lott of hedge funds opening up in jacquelineoho, wyoming. i don't know about detroit. that is a harsell. and these for the tax increases talk about how they help the working families, but the high state taxes are where the middle class disappears. only people there are the wealthy that life there. >> we don't want to get loaded

in statistics. but states with the highest tax have the highest debt. is that coincidental. >> yeahh, it is not coincidental. burrcrs and they brush their teeth with the sears computer cot log and delll computer catalog. they are spending it is like shoot first and laterr. >> victoria? >> it is not healthy tax policy. top one percent is income that is remarkkably volatile and more volatile than the economic across the board. you are deciding to get a large chunk of the revenue. and times go bad. you can say the word suffer and debate it. you will not get the tax bang . >> steve? >> bottom line is, when you make a hospitable environmentt

for people who want to get things done they will get it done. sad to see governor cuomo. he has thrown i the towel. he should get lessons from chris christie. >> first president bush. read moy lipps, you remember what happened to that pledge. >> now the protestors are occupying for foreclosured homes. best way to create american jobb system bring in more foreigners. hear the forbes flip side coming up next . ighborhood in bn to financing industries that are creating jobs in boston or providing funding for the expansion of a local business serving a diverse seattle community and supporting training programs for tomorrow's workforce in los angeles.

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c>> are evicting occupy protestors from boston's dewy square. the city set a midnight deadline for the protestors to

get out. some refused and dozens of folks were arrested for trespassing and resisting arrest. protestors set up an encampment. 10s of thousands of people mouring in the moscow square. they are protesting electionn fraud and marching against putin and his party. protest breaking out in other cities. and they want freedom for anyone arrested it is the largest show of public anger in the count reap since the collapse of the soviet union. see you at 1:00 eastern. back to forbes on fox. >> lots of american companies ar desperately seeking to fill high paying jobs with foreigners. despite millions of americans looking for work. vickk toria you think lettting

in more foreigners will help create jobs in the u.s.. here is the flip side, explain. >> absolutely. it sounds counter intuitive, but when you talk to people in the start ups that have been formed by foreigners who went throughh elaborate dances with our imigrationn official to stay here. they were on a tourist vista and have to go back and forth between the home country and united states. they are creating more jobs than you can argue they take away by filling jobs that someone here is not able to do. we should welcome talent. >> you agree or not. >> if that is true in tech maybe we should lookk at that. i can talk about wall street. and there is millionns of americans are out of jobbs and 200,000, are from wall street like hsbc and bank of america and ms globall .

these are jobs that will not get refill these are white collar american worker that could use the jobs. now we'll flood it and take the highest paying jobs and put more competition. >> shouldn't we favor american workers over foreign. >> american companies would find it easier to go find an american worker. if people from wall street were qualified they would be hired. high technology is competitive industry. if they can't get the skills here, that will be taken over seas and not good for us and our economy. >> mark, what do you think? >> this is t fox news channel and should never give preferences. but ghive preferences i am a foreign decent on an application. this is ridiculous. look what we are saying, 15-20 percent of our population is out of work or underemployed

or given up lookking for work and turn and say i am greekk or rushhian. i should get the job over the american. i have nothing against immigration or hiring people based on skills, come on, guys, take care of our own first. >> steve, and victoria want to chime in . >> what do you think of all of this? >> if you are a russian chip engineer and i need one, i am not going to hire an american insurance salesman to do the chip engineering. i will hire for the skill set. remember that old saying we are a nation of immigrants. reason we built the strongest economy in the world. we diversified the gene pool of ideas by letting new comers come in the country. china can't come close. because they are a countryy where everyone thinks the same

is our strength. a today showed last decade. we lost seven million jobs off shoring and created six million with foreign companies built here. >> it is a tough sell when you have nine percent unemployment. >> i think mike and morgan realize imgraptts create whole new treas. former head of intele. that whole new industry that didn't exist before immigrants came and helped to build it. >> so there. i think if you have a green card if they come here with a ph.d. >> hold on, mark. >> it is a nice idea to say foreigners create new industries, but the truth of the matter is, until we fix our jobs market like corporate code and obama care, jobs are

going to have issues. >> hold on, mark. victoria, go ahead. >> you are assuming a zero sum world and there is a fixed number of jobs and certain people to keep out and fill them. anda it doesn't work out. it is not zero sum jobs that are created. people who come here create new industryies and new companies. i met recentlyy with a guy who came here from rushia. he was a limo driver and on track to runn one of the most successful software drivers in silicon. he started out as a limo driver in new york city. ooh, he should stay home or a limo driver? >> i love steve forbes and sentiments and i believe in them. but it is a tough sell when you have nine percent unemployment that doesn't seem

to change. >> bottom line, where are the skills? if our education system needs to be reformed. washington keeps blocking it. it adds to job creationn and new industries in the future. it is our loss. and america is despite washington the best place to have a start up. we should drive them out when we should welcome them in. >> i think we all agree on that. thank you, gang, we have to leave it at that. jobs will be a big topic on thursday. neal cavuto will be there asking the tough questions. he's starting tuesday with a whole special series of shows. he's a potential gop running mate. and bernie marcus. a few of the big names you

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cjc penny buying a stake in start

cone in three holiday shopppers say that's it. sales are dropping after the record kick off to the cruciall shopping season. steve, you don't mean to be a

grinch but you think it is a bad sign for the overall economy. >> there is relief. the president is going on vaication in middecember. he hit the campaign traill and sales went down. now he will be in the hawaii hopefullyy there will be a final surge. >> we had a boom in black friday sales and a huge drop off. is that a problem. >> i have a message for the gringes out there. sales fall off it is a statistically ineffability. it is not a forecast of consumer sentiment. chris mag will be -christmas will be better. gasoline prices are going down and jobs. threat of being laid off. that riskk is going down and when you get in the storings, you decide to heck with cutting back.

i want to get my little girl. >> bill, to emphasize dennis' point. sales on line have been zooming up. on line sales are looking good. >> don't get too optmistic. shoppers are depressed by the bloated government and so-called stimulus. we are looking at benefit cuts . they are putting christmas money in a sock drawer. >> is it good for me if my wife is included in that category. but the latest two quarters where consumer spending was robust it came out of savings. household net worth declined by 21,000 through september for that quarter. i think it is a good sign people will not go in debt to buy things. >> morgan. >> good or bad. >> am skeptical that it is a

good sign. they had recordd sales for black friday. that was in 2008 and behind that sales dropped off and it is ended up being one of the worst holiday spending seasons on record. that will happen this yearr because we have a weak housing market and jobs market. and consumer confident is relatively weak. >> steve, anybody convincing you otherwise. and inflationn is increasing faster than the rise in wages. >> gas prices are coming down. >> for a while. whatever spending you get. bank on it and first quarter will taper off again. >> ouch, ouch. >> and this is a good thing. martha stewart stock is cooking after jc penny buys a chunk of her company. get the next stocks to sizzle after this.

i know the name of eight princesses. i'm an expert on softball. and tea parties. i'll have more awkward conversations than i'm equipped for because i'm raising two girls on my own. i'll worry about the economy more than a few times before they're grown. but it's for them, so i've found a way. who matters most to you says the most about you. massmutual is owned by our picyholders so they matter most to us. massmutual. we'll help you get there.

before the breakk we showed you what happened with martha stewart stock. and now they have the next target to take off. why are you for net flickks. and wow, morgan. >> it is an outlook that is knocked down. >> they manufacture ms medicine . >> we are a neck brace. it is acquisition target and production doubled. >> it will trade four times than what it is worth. >> it does back office paperwork . that is growth.