is dewbs& c0 is dewbs& co with you through six seven? never mind spider—man . steinman apparently is the crime fighting force that we all need. he reckons fighting crime, making our streets safer is a root and branch bread and butter labour issue . is it labour the labour issue. is it labour the party to keep us all safe? and when it comes to benefits and particularly mistake and benefits, if somebody has been paid too much money, should they have to pay it back? if so , when have to pay it back? if so, when and how? and by the way, what

about if they didn't really lies that it was an error , but it was that it was an error, but it was all the fault of the government ? should they still have their current benefits docked to pay it back? and i don't know about you , but i cannot help but you, but i cannot help but realise these days that we seem to be paying so much more money for less in return. council tax is just one example. most councils hiking as much as they possibly can whilst announcing to us, hello everybody. well guess what we're offering you a new service, a subscriptions service. you can now pay to get your bin collect your green bin. sorry i beg your pardon. is that not what council tax is supposed to be in the first place? and it doesn't, by the way, to start and end with councils. so many people are at now . why are we people are at now. why are we accepting this? why are we suddenly slap walked into a scenario where we're all so happily having our money taken off those for way less product services? your thoughts by the way? i'm joined tonight by

labour councillor, a former labour councillor, a former labour councillor as i'm fascinated to hear what he thinks of it because i think so many councillors are just basically us a bit of basically spinning us a bit of a yarn . anyway, your thoughts on yarn. anyway, your thoughts on all of that, but before we get into it, let's bring ourselves up to speed with tonight's latest headlines . michelle, latest headlines. michelle, thanks very much indeed. will our top story on gb news today, the albanian prime minister has denied many of the migrants crossing the english channel into the uk are from albania , into the uk are from albania, saying it's simply not true . edi saying it's simply not true. edi rama has been speaking from chatham house in london after talks with prime minister rishi sunak on tackling the small boats crisis. mr. rama had criticised the home secretary suella braverman for singling out people from his country, referring to some of them as criminals, described in those comments as disgraceful . he said comments as disgraceful. he said he wants all albanians in the uk to feel safe and honoured . well,

to feel safe and honoured. well, in other news today , the in other news today, the northern ireland secretary has told stormont leaders there's no negotiating the windsor framework and it will become law. chris heaton—harris has been holding talks over the prime minister's post—brexit trade deal at hillsborough castle . and that's after a key castle. and that's after a key element of the eu uk agreement known as the stormont brake was overwhelmingly passed in the house of commons yesterday. dup leader sir jeffrey donaldson described the windsor framework as a sticking plaster. that wouldn't work. but the northern ireland secretary says leaders need to come together to make the deal work. well the windsor framework is not a sticking plaster, it's a solution to the problems that were produced by the protocol and it will work. and the two sides to the those negotiations which have concluded the uk government and the european union are going to make that agree the framework work . now i think it's down to work. now i think it's down to the communities of northern ireland to work out how best it can work for them. i think it

can work for them. i think it can work for them. i think it can work for them really well. i do believe will herald. do believe it will herald. alongside the 25th anniversary of belfast good friday of the belfast good friday agreement, next 25 years agreement, the next 25 years could be all about prosperity. if everybody puts their shoulders to the wheel . now the shoulders to the wheel. now the labour leader has released the amount of tax he's paid on his income and capital gains tax over the last two years. sir keir starmer says he's paid £118,580 in tax since the start of 2021. it's after the prime minister published his tax documents yesterday which showed he paid more than £1,000,000 in tax over the last three years. parliament has banned the chinese owned social media app tiktok from all government devices. it follows security concerns from the house of commons and lords, but won't include personal devices. scotland has followed suit with its deputy first minister, saying the ban will be implemented immediately. the decision comes as tiktok's chief executive faces questions of the

us congress over data security and user safety. junior doctors in england will strike for four days between april the 11th and the 15th. the british medical association has accused the government of not being serious about resolving their pay dispute and says the health secretary has failed to make a credible offer. in response, steve barclay claims the bma are demanding a 35% pay rise equivalent . the union says they equivalent. the union says they won't stop until they're paid what they're worth . now the bank what they're worth. now the bank of england has today raised the interest rate for the 11th time interest rate for the 11th time in a row from 4% to four and a quarter% that's in a bid to slow down the rise in cost of living. and it comes after a surprise rise in inflation, as well as a decision last night by the us federal reserve to raise its key rate by a similar amount . the rate by a similar amount. the central banks also announced it expects the economy in the uk to grow slightly in the second

quarter, revising a previous forecast that it would contract . news from yet wales and the uk and welsh governments have announced two freeports are going to be created in the country for the first time in a bid to boost the country's economy. the celtic and anglesey free ports in north wales are expected to attract almost £5 billion in investment. but it's also hope they'll generate up to 20,000 jobs by the end of the decade. 20,000 jobs by the end of the decade . now a nigerian decade. now a nigerian politician has been found guilty of an organ harvesting plot involving a british hospital. senator equate ramadoss and his wife beatrice and a doctor were found guilty of conspiring to arrange the travel of a young man to exploit him for his kidney. the victim, a 21 year old street trader from nigeria, was brought to the uk last year to provide the organ for the senator daughter for an £80,000 prize. transplant the case heard

at the old bailey was illegal. first and last, leading national education union has staged a protest calling on the government to urgently reform the school inspection system. the union is having a petition signed by more than 45,000 people to the department of education , asking for it to education, asking for it to replace ofsted. it follows the death of head teacher ruth perry , who took her own life waiting for an inspection report which downgraded her berkshire school to the lowest possible rating . to the lowest possible rating. you're up to date on tv online dab , plus radio and on the dab, plus radio and on the tunein app with gb news, the people's channel. back now to dewbs& co . dewbs& co. hi there, michelle dewberry. keeping you company until 7:00 tonight. keeping me

company . my panel, daniel company. my panel, daniel moylan, a conservative peer in the house of lords, and catherine craig, a former labour councillor on the sea of plymouth communications . good plymouth communications. good evening, gentlemen. nice evening with you. back lots of you guys getting in touch already, which is what i like because it's definitely not just about those three here. it's very much about you guys at home. what's in your mind tonight? get in touch. all the usual. where's vaiews@gbnews.uk is how you email can tweet me at email me? or you can tweet me at gb news. lots coming up for you guys tonight , i have to say, and guys tonight, i have to say, and i appreciate your sentiments on this because it's really, really annoyed this afternoon. so it annoyed me this afternoon. so it has . and i'm pleased that you has. and i'm pleased that you guys are getting in touch in your droves already about this because i'm winding tonight about why are so many councils putting up the council tax by the maximum amount, 5% and more in cases, by the way, lots of getting in touch, telling me that you're paying a lot more, but then they're reducing the services. so, example , services. so, for example, coming up with all of these.

yeah, have these yeah, let's have these subscription collect subscription services to collect your beans for an extra your green beans for an extra charge . i your pardon? charge. i beg your pardon? that's your job. that's what i'm paying my that's your job. that's what i'm paying my council tax for, paying you. my council tax for, to collect the bins. i'm not having of and i am having any of it. and i am wondering why we're in a situation where we just paying so money on so many so much extra money on so many different accepting different things and accepting so when it comes to what so little when it comes to what we get in return. anyway, your thoughts on all of that and that's will be a bit later on in the top stories. the program. but top stories. sir starmer has pledged to sir keir starmer has pledged to make a strong cfa as he launches so—called labour's law and order plan. today, he says that his one rule for all proposals one half knife crime will reduce levels of violence against women and girls and it will see more offenders prosecuted and said it sounds very good. i have to say. is it realistic, though, really? very sad. i thought keir speech was very . exciting. reassuring was very. exciting. reassuring he's got a record in terms of law enforcement, law and order,

very few politicians do with his work. more than ireland, including crucial reforms to the police service over there, a crucial time . and one of the big crucial time. and one of the big things he's talked about today was about how crime disproportionately affects the working class more than others . working class more than others. you know, know. i know you've had experience of this in your in your youth. you know, lawlessness , kids running out of lawlessness, kids running out of control and, you know, a lack of police on the streets. and i think he's he's talking about things that people want to hear talked about. and i think that it's very achievable because he's done before. do you do he's done it before. do you do you agree isn't achievable. you agree isn't very achievable. well, look, we've got to be serious. every politician says, i'm going to sort out crime. i've got the silver bullet, i've got the magic wand , and i'll got the magic wand, and i'll sort out crime . none of them sort out crime. none of them ever does in quite that way, because this is a very, very complex area. but the second thing i'd say is that the last person i go to for advice on this is keir starmer. why? because when he director of because when he was director of pubuc because when he was director of public prosecutions, mean, his public prosecutions, i mean, his performance woeful.

performance was woeful. i mean, if saw rape convictions, if you saw the rape convictions, for example, that's one of the big things people are concerned about under on about these days. under on darkest armour, to darkest armour, he had to apologise for them after a bad inspection report . so, i mean, i inspection report. so, i mean, i wouldn't have i wouldn't put a lot trust in him to do it, lot of trust in him to do it, but i wouldn't put a trust in any politician to say i'm going to solve the problem of crime. it's complex than it's much more complex than that. bad things that. one of the bad things we've recently, and i know we've done recently, and i know that there are problems with the metropolitan but metropolitan police, but we're taking a sledgehammer to the metropolitan police at the moment. destroying moment. we're totally destroying morale police morale of the ordinary police and the and these people are going to stop defending us. and, in fact, we need them. and the idea of the scrap, the whole thing and start again and everything, it's really, really bad news for law and order. but that's where keir starmer is. we discussed when case discussed this when the case report i actually report came out and i actually asked audience , are any asked my audience, are any of you current also or former serving police officers? and so many people got in contact because i was asking you, what is your morale like? lots of people in touch perf coren

people got in touch perf coren and former they all said how and former and they all said how demoralising it was and how people that were in the force were perhaps considering leaving. and i think it is and one of my view is because i do read all your e—mails, by the way, not often that when i'm on because there's so many, but i always read them throughout my journey home and someone said, anyone wants criticise anyone that wants to criticise the michelle the police, michelle should spend day in the life of spend a day in the life of a police officer. they should put their boots uniform on and run into danger with no idea what it is going to be at the end of it. and and only they were and then and only then they were saying criticise it, saying can they criticise it, but what about the point, kevin, that daniel makes about that daniel makes then about keir starmer's when he keir starmer's record when he was responsible for the prosecution as well? i think it's incredible that daniel was brought up rape statistics . i brought up rape statistics. i mean, when the rape conviction rate is gone from 8.5% in 2015 to 1.6% now, and case starmer was widely regarded as being a very successful director of the

crown prosecution service. he was knighted by, ah, like queen. so i don't think there's any substance what daniel said. and you know what people know out there that the number of there is that the number of people who think that they see less policemen or women the less policemen or women on the streets since since streets is doubled since since 2010. starmer he he was 2010. and keir starmer he he was actively responsible for banning up and locking away dangerous terrorists. he feels it in his bones. terrorists. he feels it in his bones . and i think, you know, bones. and i think, you know, daniel might be better advised to reflect on his former boss, bofis to reflect on his former boss, boris , who himself is well known boris, who himself is well known as a lawbreaker maker and which received penalty notices to that effect sorry . even keir starmer effect sorry. even keir starmer doesn't agree with you. kevin here. if i just quote from him briefly at the time he said the inspector can report into the crown prosecution service in london, makes it clear that our performance must unequivocally and urgently improve . i mean, he and urgently improve. i mean, he didn't think they were any good. well and now you're telling me he's a great sort of superman in crime. so let's face it. well, not once on the quote that daniel as chapter and verse out

of context , the fact that as the of context, the fact that as the leader of the organisation, he at one point acknowledged that a performance in one regional area needed to get better does not mean that his overall tenure was not a success. well, i don't think it was a success. but then it matches your concern that i've got a feeling that labour is wrong. no, no, no. it's. it's just time i can do with labour. labour's do with labour's nothing to do with laboun labour's nothing to do with labour. starmer changed labour's nothing to do with lab spot starmer changed labour's nothing to do with lab spot so starmer changed labour's nothing to do with lab spot so often ner changed labour's nothing to do with lab spot so often this changed labour's nothing to do with lab spot so often this was:hanged labour's nothing to do with lab spot so often this was keirjed his spot so often this was keir starmer, the man who support starmer, the man who the support of corbyn. the man who wants to get out of the european year, stop us getting out of the european union any trick european union and use any trick to now, he doesn't want to stop it. now, he doesn't want to stop it. now, he doesn't want to now. doesn't to do that now. he doesn't support corbyn now support jeremy corbyn and now he's transmuting himself into a great fighter against crime . his great fighter against crime. his background as director of public prosecutions was middling so—so at best he hasn't got any magic bullets for solving crime because nobody has been in really needs a bit of humility about all of this and to acknowledge that there were real problems as a part of boris johnson. humility for keir starmer . you having a laugh?

starmer. you having a laugh? bofis starmer. you having a laugh? boris johnson yesterday and that excellent performance, that completely truthful and convincing performance, the past after we showed him about winning , borrowed himself to be winning, borrowed himself to be humble , resourceful, humble and humble, resourceful, humble and respectful to the committee . he respectful to the committee. he lost his temper occasionally when they kept repeating themselves forever. basically, that was a that was boris johnson yesterday . he showed why johnson yesterday. he showed why he should be acquitted and he showed that he was not actually guilty of misleading parliament, deliberately unconscious lying when he did inadvertently , he when he did inadvertently, he apologised for it at the first possible opportunity , which possible opportunity, which everyone accepts is the right thing to do. if you mistake, if you inadvertently mislead parliament. so i think what he showed yesterday was was tremendous and people have great confidence in him and i'm sure the committee will acquit him. now on police. michel. yeah we can segue way back to oh, by the way, a lot of my viewers yesterday because we covered this obviously after the hearing and finished lot of my and finished and a lot of my viewers saying actually

viewers were saying actually they felt reassured by the performance of boris yesterday . performance of boris yesterday. listen, this this programme and a large chunk of the lovely viewers, right. they love boris johnson.i viewers, right. they love boris johnson. i think they are a minority. this is the people's this is going to get me lots of lovely pictures, you know, till i can show my relatives what most folks who watch this show are predisposed to be fans of boris. they're not the majority . there's a poll out today about the conservative grassroots. you think forget the think he's done to forget the majority? course did boris majority? of course did boris since across country. since power across the country. well, they did. well, they did. they did. absolutely didn't deny that absolutely not. didn't deny that . but you know, i would . but look, you know, i would love see that again love to see that tested again tomorrow. but what i would like tomorrow. but what i would like to say on crime, which you raised about the police officers, and women who officers, the men and women who rightfully good rightfully who the good the good ones suffers in the ones whose morale suffers in the wake reports, very wake of reports, are very critical week that critical that this week that david brought out and david casey brought out and i wonder they're upset because the system allowed apples to system allowed bad apples to come the officer who come in. and the officer who murdered sarah everard and it does reform . you know, my does need reform. you know, my father is a former father in law is a former

policeman. i love the police. i'm grateful for their for their courage in their service. but they are they've been badly served by this government . are served by this government. are you a police officer? and if you are if you've been a police officer for quite some time, because i would be interested when we you've been badly when we say you've been badly served government , if served by this government, if you've been in power, impose sorry, i know, say beyond sorry, i don't know, say beyond 12 years. do you notice and do you feel a difference? do you feel you know, i had such a great job and i really cared great job and i was really cared for, out and out under for, say, out and out under a labour government. and now it's really the really different under the tories, the coalition. do you nofice tories, the coalition. do you notice difference ? notice a real stark difference? one of my is vince has got in touch saying ask kevin . he's touch saying ask kevin. he's banging the drum for care's track record. what about grooming gangs in the north? what was his record on that ? what was his record on that? care actually mentioned that in the speech today ? i would say to the speech today? i would say to vince and i think that most right minded labour folk think that what happened there was disgraceful and it was very open about it today and said that he

condemns the people who were involved in it and, you know, as with any right minded person who loves to speak to the people involved with it, that's hardly a statement. set the a policy statement. set the country or prescription country alight or a prescription for solving the question is for solving it. the question is whether sense of whether he felt any sense of responsibility given his why would why would why would he? well, he his. yeah. you're well, he was his. yeah. you're claiming, know , he was this claiming, you know, he was this great. why would starmer if great. why would keir starmer if he was claiming for the discussion, claiming he'd he was claiming you're just a moment ago this great ago claiming he had this great crime experience and crime fighting experience and telling his successes . telling us about his successes. if i bring up an area where he failed, then you don't seem to want to answer it. i'm not blaming personally for blaming him personally for actually going out and telling, encouraging people to do these horrible inexcusable things. horrible and inexcusable things. of not. but my question of course not. but my question is, you know, there were failures you have failures as well. do you have any thoughts on the taught at the government? robert ability . the government? robert ability. but yes, but, but you see any of this, you throw these generalised actions in your, your lovely tones around with no specific reference to who, who's

was responsible in rochdale. it wasn't keir starmer. he condemned it throughout and he proactively raised it today as an example of the sorts of things that needs to be tackled when your government invests properly in the police and actually doesn't . so this is the actually doesn't. so this is the government when you when your government when you when your government and government properly and thousands of extra police is cutting right across me, i can't even get a sentence out right . even get a sentence out right. when your government invests properly in the police, when people's fear of crime goes down, not up , and when there are down, not up, and when there are more officers on the beat, then you can say those things. but the is good and the record is not good and you're never accountable. you're in the lords as a conservative peer never seem to say peer, you never seem to say anything decent sunak or anything decent about sunak or anything, does . don't respond anything, he does. don't respond well, i just want to say this is the government's put tens of thousands of extra police officers on the streets, but to restore them back to levels that they'd call to put them back to they'd call to put them back to the levels that we need, but they call. yeah now we need them and we put them back on the

streets. how many more. i didn't hear the speech, kevin. so forgive me. did he say how many more police officers he'd recruit? 13,000 extra neighbourhood police officers and pcsos all of this face. what's the pace ? a volunteer what's the pace? a volunteer one? no. yes i know that the community support officers , i community support officers, i mean, daniel will recall from his time in london government the introduction of neighbourhood policing teams. it was originally championed by ken livingston making allowing livingston about making allowing us set the priorities of us to set the priorities of police a grassroots , talking to police a grassroots, talking to local people a great success and everything that keir starmer promises will be funded and costed. and then the british people can take a good look and make their minds up and they ultimately always make the right decision. says, can decision. madeleine says, can you tell kevin i watched gb news and i love and despise chris johnson. so no, not every lady's name. madeleine fine. woman madeleine. why? well do you think you should live people in pubuc think you should live people in public office and despise them? why can't we just disagree with them? out to love and dispose of

them? out to love and dispose of the left? that loves loathing. even keir starmer said he loathed johnson . and loathed boris johnson. and whatever you think , boris, it's whatever you think, boris, it's the loathing . they feel that the loathing. they feel that loathing is a normal thing in politics, i think as well as desperate things about the labour party to hate coming right from the top low loathing and you know, everyone can use their own language about how they feel about political opponents. i would say that . the opponents. i would say that. the feelings that many people have yesterday , daniel, you saw that yesterday, daniel, you saw that and you when you thought boasted well , if you and you when you thought boasted well, if you look online, there are so many people in the nhs who saw what he said , you know, who saw what he said, you know, and in public services who didn't have parties and farewell dnnks didn't have parties and farewell drinks and they were quite outraged by it indeed. and that was what was got cast going was it right. well i would say the new summer i'm talking about keir starmer, i'm talking about the fat cats. they'll talk about the fat cats. they'll talk about the things and he's going to be

okay to tell say that you loathe your political opponents. and that's the tone of the labour party. well, i heard you party. well, i never heard you never say that about. never heard me say that about. i don't agree with keir starmer. i don't agree with keir starmer. i don't as he's don't think he's as good as he's cracked to be. but i've never cracked up to be. but i've never said anything personal. that character, well, loathing just means have at means i think we'll have at least a test, doesn't it? yeah passion. hate what some people do. i mean, i think, you do. feel i mean, i think, you know, and i, it's a culture. know, you and i, it's a culture. well, you know, i go back to yourjudgement well, you know, i go back to your judgement on well, you know, i go back to yourjudgement on boris your judgement on boris yesterday lockdowns all yesterday and lockdowns and all that. a couple of my viewers , that. a couple of my viewers, barry, , darren will last barry, brian, darren will last more than a couple and a few more than a couple and a few more if you actually give us the really simple question how is parents, keir starmer so confidently saying he's going to reduce women reduce violence against women and when guess what reduce violence against women and going when guess what reduce violence against women and going wisay guess what reduce violence against women and going wisay nextguess what reduce violence against women and going wisay next after what reduce violence against women and going wisay next after tom, i'm going to say next after tom, it can't even define what a woman is. i do think you make a very interesting point. now, i might get a quick response from kevin on that one after the break, but i am going to go to a break. when i come back, i want to have some more of your

responses, but i also want you to if somebody has to ponder this. if somebody has received too much money, basically in benefits that they were not entitled to because of an error , and that error was not an error, and that error was not their fault, should they to their fault, should they have to pay their fault, should they have to pay all the taxpayer back ? if pay all the taxpayer back? if so, how? when how much is it fair that the perhaps lowest paid in society, those people on universal credit, robin, the wages don't the money doc sorry the benefits talked to pay back errors that were not their fault yes was also you . there's help for households. are you over state pension age? if your weekly income is below £182.60, or £278.70 if you live with a partner, you could be eligible for pension credit, even if you own your home or have savings. it's worth, on average, £3,500 a year and you could get help with heating bills and more, plus up to £900 in cost of living payments.

to hello. that was just dewbs& co with me michelle dewberry keeping me company right through till 7:00 with you. we've got daniel moylan, a conservative peer house of lords, and peer in the house of lords, and kevin a former kevin craig, a former labour councillor and the of councillor and the ceo of parliament communications company . i will just ask this company. i will just ask this because lots of my view is of

asking the same question how can cast women make bold statements like, reduce like, i'm going to reduce violence women girls violence against women and girls if he's equally seemingly incapable defining what woman incapable of defining what woman is case now incapable of defining what a woman is. what do you think? they can have a penis? maybe doesn't. i thought you did. doesn't it? to a very odd stumbling, mumbling interview where he was asked a direct question kind of woman have a penis instead of have a penis and instead of using and saying no , using his brains and saying no, he kind of went, oh, well, i really don't think that we should this down should reduce this down to today. was very strange today. it was a very strange interview. my understanding is that leading team that keir and the leading team around him think a woman is a biologically born female whilst being really supportive of people's own separate gender identity issues. why does he think that , kevin think well, think that, kevin think well, why does he think that a woman is a biologically formed female ? let me suggest the answer to my question, because he's written an article in the express today. hey, look, donna, it's come to today on his iphone. he says, what we learned

from scotland is that you don't make changes , that you can't make changes, that you can't bnng make changes, that you can't bring the public along with , bring the public along with, which in scotland they which is why in scotland they should , situation . i should reset, reset situation. i think there are lessons from scotland. the primary lesson is the changes which don't carry any public confidence are almost certainly the right changes certainly not the right changes . you. so he's given up. . thank you. so he's given up. thank you. he's given up his commitment to gender ism. no, no . why, thank you . has his mind . why, thank you. has his mind has changed the. because he thinks it's going to cost him votes. i think that's what it is. quick response. the woman is a woman. he's just hiding it. well, i want to thank lord daniel moylan for showing why keir starmer would be a prime minister that listens to the people of this country, respects them and is not arrogant and still thinks that women could have a penis . still thinks that women could have a penis. even now he doesn't. well, i'll let you guys be the judge of that, because i will move on. there's lots to discuss tonight. lots going on in this bizarre. well, sometimes that we live in. right. let me

ask you this. i asked you before the break if someone's been receiving benefits that they were not entitled to in error. admittedly perhaps it might not be their fault. it perhaps is the fault of the government. should they have to pay it back if so, how and when? because more than a million people have now had the universal credit payments for that very payments cut for that very reason . i'll start with you on reason. i'll start with you on this one, daniel. if you look at and universal credit and you're, you know , let's just be clear as you know, let's just be clear as well. perhaps you are working, but you're at a lower wage and getting your incomes supportive of universal credit. if of the universal credit. if there mistake in the past, there was a mistake in the past, are liable for paying that are you liable for paying that back? if the bank makes a back? well, if the bank makes a mistake and puts money into your account that doesn't belong to you, expect the bank to you, you'd expect the bank to take the fact is, take it out again. the fact is, it isn't. it was never your money weren't entitled money and you weren't entitled to it's an to it. benefit it's an entitlement. they engage people who to them. you who are entitled to them. if you get more it, you're not get more than it, you're not entitled to it. now course, entitled to it. now of course, it seems unfair and of course it can be very difficult for people

who are on universal credit or other benefits to have less money than they expect because of repayment . it is required and of repayment. it is required and that's why i think the repayment provision should be as gentle and manageable as possible . but and manageable as possible. but the that it's not your the principle that it's not your money, it never was in the first place is important. but otherwise, what obligation do we have to taxpayers? but if your bank shoved an extra , i don't bank shoved an extra, i don't know, just say 500 quid in your bank account, then you're going to know what's that about? it's not mine. some people might not mine. and some people might keep might keep quiet. other people might ask the bank. but the thing, one of the challenges with the benefit system, be really benefit system, it can be really complicated, if your complicated, especially if your first to try and first time claiming to try and work are entitled work out what you are entitled to or what you're entitled. to or what you're not entitled. so genuinely didn't so maybe genuinely you didn't realise supposed to realise i wasn't supposed to have this money. so you've spent it in good no, i do it in good faith? no, i do understand that. but i don't think it's money anyway. think it's your money anyway. and the fact is, i think it does need to be returned because the taxpayer that for taxpayer needs that money for other i say , other purposes. and as i say, i'd like to see it done in a way

which is as manageable and as possible and takes account of the fact that many people don't have spare money. but it needs to be repaid. and i think most people who want to repay it haven't. i think they'd say i almost entitled to this money and it should be repaid, but i don't want us to have it taken out in one lump or in a way out in one lump sum or in a way that wrecks my life. but in principle it should be repaid over time. in yes. but over time. in theory, yes. but i mean, the problem is there's a couple number one, couple of things. number one, this at time this is happening at a time of i would argue, unprecedented economic hardship. number two is there's also a fact that lots of benefits that people are entitled to are not claimed. so there is room in the system for balance. and the other thing is, is that and i liked your comments, danny, about if it is to be reclaimed, it should be done gently and sensitively because , you know, government because, you know, government also wastes billions elsewhere. you know, are we going after all the money that was paid out in covid 19 contracts to people who set the company up a few weeks before their matt hancock's

boozer? so i think people like consistent , say, of the consistent, say, of the application of the principle of the use of our money, all of our money, all three of us here and everyone listening and watching. but in this instance, there's some real pain being caused to people who are already suffering andifs people who are already suffering and it's troubling. yeah, and do you feel or do you worry that sometimes perhaps this particular government is a little bit out of touch? because, i don't know, say, right, i'm going to duck from you 20 quid a month or something . for a lot of people in government, not 20 quid among. it's neither here nor there. it's neither here nor there. it's just the cost of their coffees in the morning, on the way to whereas for some way to work. whereas for some people, they really people, if they really struggling, when quid is struggling, that's when quid is the between , i don't the difference between, i don't know, can i create a, i don't know, can i create a, i don't know, food meal for this or that. i'll do it really makes a difference to them. do you think people in the government have a sense of the impacts of that? yeah, i think any elected politician who represents constituents , whether from constituents, whether from whatever party they come, is

regularly, constantly in touch with people who are living at the margins and they do understand the difficulties and that's irrespective of party. they're holding surgeries, they're having people coming to their door pretty regularly who have got real financial problems . and i do think the one thing you can't say about mps in this country is that they are out of touch with how ordinary people live their lives. and very often it's the ones in the greatest difficulties who actually present themselves at the door in the surgery. so, in fact , if in the surgery. so, in fact, if anything, they get a skewed vision the other way. i i think you really have to have the experience of being an elected politician, even a local councillor . i politician, even a local councillor. i like politician, even a local councillor . i like kevin and councillor. i like kevin and i have been to understand the difficulties that people do live because it really brings you into touch with them. yeah and just to put some of this into context, by the way, apparently the department for works and pensions overpaid . 8.6 billion

pensions overpaid. 8.6 billion in the birth billion pounds in 2021, 2022 and 6.5 of that . of 2021, 2022 and 6.5 of that. of that 8.6 was due apparently to fraud. so i think there's yeah, there's a few different things going on here. i think there are lots of innocent, genuinely innocent people that, you know, they put their trust in. and so that detail data in the system and then they trust what they get at the end of it and then i think the flipside to that is then there are some people that do take the system a ride. do take the system for a ride. it's those people that for me should really should be hitting really, really hard. those people are knowingly defrauding the system. ian says. i'm a retired benefit fraud investigator and if somebody overpaid benefits as a result of official error, then they shouldn't be required to repay. but if arises, due to a failure to declare a material fact or change in circumstances, then they would be required to repay. in addition to possible sanction, including possible criminal conviction . and john criminal conviction. and john

says , of course, people know says, of course, people know what they're entitled to, so they know if they've been overpaid. but actually the benefit system is quite tricky. and also, don't forget, you've you've all different systems. you've got your universal credits and you used to have your tax credits in some cases your tax credits in some cases you still do. so i think it is quite complicated, darell says. michelle it is taxpayers money. pay it back. it is not yours, david. he's got a novel idea. he says the definitely should pay back any they are entitled to. but perhaps it should be the civil servant who made the mistake that should be paying back the debts and perhaps david says it might make them a bit more focussed. contra vassal what's your thoughts on that ? what's your thoughts on that? going to take a quick break. when i come back, i'll have some of your feedback, but a topic that's got of you talking that's got lots of you talking already. i am pondering why do we keep getting asked to pay more council tax? don't forget most councils, if not all of heights to the maximum 5% in

some cases beyond , and both some cases beyond, and both simultaneously they are reducing the service that they offer. for example , having a subscription example, having a subscription service . it's a laughable service. it's a laughable subscription service that you've got to pay. now, for example , got to pay. now, for example, green bins collected in some cases pack it in, deliver the services that we are paying for. what am i missing ? your thoughts what am i missing? your thoughts and i'll see you .

in two. hi i'm michelle dewberry, keeping you company till seven alongside mcdaniel moylan, a conservative peer in the house of laws, and kevin craig, a former labour counsellor and the ceo of palomar communications. we've just been talking about benefits repayments. susan's says not often i agree with kevin, but he's absolutely right . on what you've been saying in terms of repayment, the government should be going for

the people who defrauded the government in the pandemic. but you're also saying it's the incompetent government, civil servants, the arts are blame . servants, the arts are blame. jane says, please, can you ask the conservative law? that's you, daniel, whether not he thinks the mp who did their should have to pay their fraud back as well . well, that was back as well. well, that was quite a long time ago and some of they aren't round numbers to them, but some of them did pay back or were obliged to pay back. a couple of them went to jail. i it was a couple jail. i think it was a couple went to jail and a lot of them were obliged to pay back and did make payments and yeah, you're quite right . make payments and yeah, you're quite right. some of make payments and yeah, you're quite right . some of these quite right. some of these benefits, debts , just by the benefits, debts, just by the way, that are being reclaimed at the moment, having stoppages or sanctions i say in the benefits that people are receiving today at some of those missed payments with decades old just doesn't apply to all. philip says . phil apply to all. philip says. phil says, michel, you have got your black top is absolutely covered in dandruff. phil it's not

dandruff, it's fashion. you can't help some people. so i'll just move on, right? council to talk about that instead . have talk about that instead. have you had an increase in your council tax? i suspect the answer of a pretty much all of us right now is yes. many councils are allowed to put their fees up by 5. many councils have gone way beyond that in some. but the thing that is annoying me tonight is, is all well and good. putting your council tax up if what you then do is deliver a better or even i'll settle for equal quite frankly, equal service . but frankly, equal service. but often this is not what is happening. and i have become aware of a so—called subscript in—service, which i actually think is lunacy , where people think is lunacy, where people are now having to pay an annual fee to get, for example, green bins collected. people are paying bins collected. people are paying an increased council tax and they're having their regular bin collections frequently. i think it is appalling. bin collections frequently. i think it is appalling . and in think it is appalling. and in the break i've just found out i've got a combined 45 year

expen i've got a combined 45 year experi ence between these two have been local council as kevin. i think so many of these councillors, they are just taking the mic now and i think it's outrageous and it should stop your thoughts . you think stop your thoughts. you think they're taking the mickey? yeah, i think if you're going to i do. i think if you're going to ask people with a straight face, particularly in these challenging you now need particularly in these ch pay1ging you now need particularly in these ch pay an1g you now need particularly in these ch pay an extra you now need particularly in these ch pay an extra 5% you now need particularly in these ch pay an extra 5% oru now need particularly in these ch pay an extra 5% or whateverzd to pay an extra 5% or whatever is, i think the very least that council should be committing. so the very least, the same level of services when you then start trying to sell me this one awful new innovation and called a subscription service where you'll charge me to click my bin, i think you're taking the mickey out of me so i'd i don't think councils are generally to take the mickey. i think what councils have to do in law provide for us is set down right and i think they were different. daniel will have a view after there are different requirements for what they have to do. they include setting a budget. they include setting a budget. they include certain service provision levels . and to be

provision levels. and to be honest, over time , the last you honest, over time, the last you know, over time , let's keep it. know, over time, let's keep it. general councils have had massive the of doing massive cuts. the cost of doing what they do has gone up in terms of staff and often they do things that maybe the three of us don't always see. so they spend huge amounts on looking after children. there are a lot . law authority has a legal role as a statutory parent, often for kids and, children's homes and being fostered . they look after being fostered. they look after social services , clean streets social services, clean streets and schools . and i'm not sure . i and schools. and i'm not sure. i mean, ideally, yes, you wouldn't anything for things like this garden waste collection, but sometimes they haven't got the money to do that . and so people money to do that. and so people are asked to pay extra into fence. most councillors , they do fence. most councillors, they do it. it's you don't do it for the glory or the money. it's about trying to make your locality a better place. and i apply that to most parties . i think loads to most parties. i think loads of local councillors do it for

the power trip. do you. i do actually, yeah. i can think of a few local councils i've crossed paths with and look at them and i also think you've got a bit of small man syndrome. you, you're doing that job to make yourself feel more powerful. well, feel a bit more powerful. well, maybe mean and maybe i'm just being mean and i'm going off topic i'm certainly going off topic anyway. by way, anyway. back to the by the way, you two are not small men, very tall men. so not applying tall men. so i'm not applying that to these two. just to make that to these two. just to make that clear, think you are that clear, i think you are being a bit michelle. why? being a bit mean, michelle. why? because that most because don't think that most of them trip. them are on a power trip. i agree with kevin about that. most them. i a lot of most of them. i said a lot of them. well a lot of them or whatever, i don't think they are, but still, the fact is, let's about this. first let's get real about this. first of this is not green waste. of all, this is not green waste. this is garden waste. specifically garden waste. the local is not obliged local authority is not obliged to collect your waste, to collect your garden waste, including in your council that covers your domestic waste. what comes out of your house? it doesn't cover what comes out of your garden , isn't it? got your garden, isn't it? got they've been doing this this council been doing it for council has been doing it for free in the past as service

which is good . and they're now which is good. and they're now saying we can't afford it , saying we can't afford it, you're going to have to pay for it. but they're legal it. but they're perfectly legal , to you were , entitled to it. you were getting freebie. that's getting a freebie. that's what i want to you're getting want to say. you're getting a freebie the freebies been freebie and the freebies been withdrawn. thing is withdrawn. the second thing is what seeing is and i keep what we're seeing is and i keep making this point, kevin laughs at what we're seeing is that at me. what we're seeing is that the country is running out money to for the public services to pay for the public services it wants and the you say they put the tax up for council tax up 5% inflation alone is 10. inflation alone is ten. so do you think they should be able to get the money? no, i don't think . they should be able to hike it more than the five. i think what we've got to get used to is the idea that public services we're going to to be more going to have to be more selective about the public's services because services we offer because we can't them. right. can't afford them. all right. this this country, this country blew the money in covid, but on one point, michelle. well, no, because what i'm going to do is i'm going to press polls on that point. i want to come back. no, no, going to come back

no, no. i'm going to come back to because i think he makes to it because i think he makes a good point. what he's saying, what daniel saying is it's what daniel is saying is it's perhaps to press pause perhaps time now to press pause and at what we are getting and look at what we are getting as services. have we had as public services. have we had it to go and now we it too long to go out and now we have to have a back of reality and look at what should we be getting as of our council getting as part of our council tax. trying tax. so rather than trying to squeeze in before squeeze you in quickly before the going to go to a the break, i'm going to go to a break. let you guys at home ponder it and then give you time to properly. when we come to answer properly. when we come back great. i'll see back to college. great. i'll see you into it. don't go you all into it. don't go anywhere .

hello there. i'm michelle dewberry , keeping you company dewberry, keeping you company till 7:00 tonight. along side me, i've got daniel moylan, who's the tory peer in the house of lords , and kevin craig, of lords, and kevin craig, a former labour councillor and the ceo of paloma . and as we've just ceo of paloma. and as we've just figured out before the break, everyone on this panel me excuse obviously we have . a 45 years of

obviously we have. a 45 years of local council experience, so who better than to have this conversation ? the topic that's conversation? the topic that's getting all of you guys talking at home, i can tell you, which is about council tax, the increase is in council tax, what it should include, what it should exclude. and if it's all right for the event to things with subscription services for your green business and says michelle you don't even know what you're talking about green bins of recycling i.e. carbon paper and brown bins are for garden waste now and it's not the same all over the country . the same all over the country. different councils have different bins, different rules, different bins, different rules, different collection days, the whole thing , i would say, is whole thing, i would say, is a bit of a mess. they're trying to standardise it, but that has not yet happened. every day is a school day. there you go. on your thoughts on the question that we were just pondering before the break was , is it time before the break was, is it time for a radical reform of what we're getting? we add it to good for too long, right . we're getting? we add it to good for too long, right. this is we're getting? we add it to good

for too long, right . this is a for too long, right. this is a really important point because everyone needs concern is this is this is so important. we all need to hold this thought all the way up to the next general election because mellifluous voices like lord daniel moylan will tell us. we've we've had it to mellifluous, mellifluous, funny , funny, funny, like right funny, funny, funny, like right on.and funny, funny, funny, like right on. and they say in lovely tones , we can't afford this, we can't afford that. this country spends less on public services overall as gdp percentage compared to most of the european countries that we want to beat. right. we're roughly 42. france's is at 55. germany somewhere between we're poor currently we it doesn't have to be like this and when any political party us we can't afford this we can't afford that we have to look at what are we actually investing in the country we want. and i would argue the moment when we look around us, we see so many things failing. it's not that

we're not spending enough, so it's that we're not spending enough, too not much. okay? it doesn't to be like this. and where daniel gets his assertion that we can't afford it for a major western economy, it's not true. the statistics show we spend less . we're spending less spend less. we're spending less and less in relation to private economic activity, profit economic activity, profit economic activity, profit economic activity . we have a economic activity. we have a public, public expenditure , public, public expenditure, which is 42. i think it's slightly more, but go with 42% up from 35, only a few years ago under labour actually up from 35. but on top of that we have because we have very large privatised utility sector and, infrastructure sector , you are infrastructure sector, you are paying infrastructure sector, you are paying effectively the government is effectively running those businesses and they are an arm of government as well. and we are paying charges

to them all day. they don't count as public expenditure , count as public expenditure, they count as private expenditure . they look like expenditure. they look like businesses, but they're not businesses. water companies are not business is because they actually levy a tax on you. they don't charge you don't pay your water rates . you get into water rates. you get into trouble, you taken to court. trouble, you get taken to court. it's a tax. same with electric city. now government sets the pnces. city. now government sets the prices . they're not prices. they're basically not private companies anymore. so you've this hugely private you've got this hugely private companies , they don't operate companies, they don't operate like private companies. they don't go out and compete. they don't go out and compete. they don't set prices . they don't don't set prices. they don't operate like that . the operate like that. the government sets the prices for them . then when you take all them. then when you take all that into account, we are spending a fortune in this country through the public sector. we can't afford to carry on like this and labour's going to have to confront that. well they come into power if labour is given the honour and privilege of governing, they will. but i mean they will, but they won't be confronted by spending more money. well, you've just distracted the debate. companies , debate. the utility companies, which your government

which of course your government privatised are the issue. privatised, are not the issue. police councils, hospitals . police councils, hospitals. we're not spending enough. linda right way. linda is in spain . right way. linda is in spain. she says in spain the bins are open today. every day there's very few. paul's in the police. the police are visible everywhere. cheap buses and trains and all the rest of it. and you say it's only about ,384 a year. you have to pay lots of you were getting in touch, too many of you to read out your name saying all of this business, michel, is just going to increase fly—tipping to lead to increase fly—tipping lots of you also are agreeing with what i said about there is an awful lot of people that do get into local councillor ships for their own power trips. lots of you getting in touch, telling just how much your council tax is. graham i feel sorry for you. graham your council tax. your council is croydon and i mean look at the absolute start of croydon council. i think they've got to declare intentions. go bankrupt. i think it is about three times i feel sorry for you . which me to ponder . which leads me to ponder a good question. should

councillors be able to invest your money in the pursuit of profit? i don't know. you tell me. that all i've got time me. that is all i've got time for. i'll see you tomorrow. thanks, thank to everyone thanks, guy. thank to everyone at home good evening. i'm at to. home good evening. i'm alex deakin and this is your latest weather update the latest weather update from the met tomorrow will be met office tomorrow will be pretty today some pretty similar to today some sunshine , plenty showers sunshine, plenty of showers blown along by gusty winds being created by a big area of low pressure out to the west. we do have this waving weather fronts covering the southeast through this evening, for this evening, making for a pretty end to thursday pretty soggy end to thursday day. outbreaks of rain slowly clearing away from east anglia and the south east, but lingering until around midnight across parts of norfolk . across parts of norfolk. following on from that you can see the low here and a lots of showers piling in for city scotland, northern ireland, nonh scotland, northern ireland, north wales and northwest england. further south, it should become a little drier through the night's not especially start friday especially cold, we start friday at sixes and sevens. especially cold, we start friday at sixes and sevens . we also at sixes and sevens. we also should start with quite a bit of sunshine over the midlands eastern england parts of the eastern england and parts of the south . but showers will

south. but the showers will develop plenty of showers because scotland early because southern scotland early on you can see the showers on and you can see the showers breaking out. spy mid to late morning pretty extensively so nowhere immune where we see the showers will be heavy perhaps even turn into thunderstorms. they should to through they should tend to zip through and breeze and between and a brisk breeze and between the but a sunshine the showers but a sunshine seeing temperatures again climbing the teens. the climbing into the teens. the winds a little lighter over central which central scotland, which means the here could be quite the showers here could be quite slow moving in through the evening showers packing evening lots of showers packing into wet end into northern on pretty wet end to here. and wetter to the day here. and that wetter weather sweeping into southern scotland the evening as scotland during the evening as well. and that leads into a showery day again on saturday, perhaps not as many showers across parts of the south, but a chance of seeing longer dry spells in the far north, also tending a little drier, but parts of south—east scotland, northeast england again seeing lots of showers through the day. again, quite mild but quite windy in the south, but it's starting to turn a little colder. these northerly winds picking across northern picking up across northern scotland, a chillier scotland, bringing a chillier and those northerly winds will

spread further as we go spread further south as we go through the weekend so that by sunday it is much colder everywhere . goodbye .

and . it's thursday night and and. it's thursday night and this is for roz at large live from newcastle . please welcome from newcastle. please welcome your host , from newcastle. please welcome your host, nigel. sara's yes, once again, we've got a knife . once again, we've got a knife. go here in newcastle . the go here in newcastle. the friendliest part of the country . got an amazing show for you. we're going to start off with lads brexiteer, tv presenter darren grimes . we're then going darren grimes. we're then going to have super back newcastle united legend malcolm goddard

and then,