who opposed the united ministers who opposed the united kingdom, leaving the european convention of human rights. but after yesterday's bonkers green ruling, surely the uk has no other choice. amnesty international has been embarrassed after it eulogised a convicted palestinian prisoner who led a group that abducted, castrated, tortured and mutilated an israeli soldier back in the 1980s. is this a charity still worth supporting? plus, i mentioned the other week that rachel reeves sent me a billy do asking for my support , billy do asking for my support, but obviously i couldn't vote laboun but obviously i couldn't vote labour. now it gets better . she labour. now it gets better. she wants to get hmrc employees back to the office and i'm delighted she's adopting my policy. state of the nation starts now. i'll also be joined by my most pugnacious panel. former editor of the sun, kelvin mackenzie, and the historian and broadcaster tessa dunlop. as

always, as you know, i want to hear from you. it's a crucial part the programme. part of the programme. email me mailmogg@gbnews.com. part of the programme. email me maiyour|g@gbnews.com. part of the programme. email me maiyour favourite/s.com. part of the programme. email me maiyour favourite partn. part of the programme. email me maiyour favourite part of the it's your favourite part of the day. the news with polly middlehurst. >> jacob, thank you and good evening to you. well, the top story from the gb newsroom tonight. five members of a bulgarian organised crime group have been convicted today of falsely claiming over £50 million in universal credit in the uk's biggest ever case of benefit fraud . the gang worked benefit fraud. the gang worked for almost five years, making thousands of false claims for universal credit, either using real identities or fake identities. the investigation identified three so—called benefit factories based in london, where repeated false claims were supported by forged documents, including fake tenancy agreements , counterfeit tenancy agreements, counterfeit payslips and forged letters from landlords , employers and gps .

landlords, employers and gps. the former chairman of the post office mediation scheme has described the wrongful prosecution of subpostmasters by the post office as the greatest scandal he's ever seen. sir anthony hooper told the horizon it inquiry today that a new approach was needed to make sure multiple injustices, such as those never happened again . he those never happened again. he addedit those never happened again. he added it didn't make sense that reputable subpostmasters appointed by the post office after an examination of their characters would be stealing these sums of money. it just didn't make sense. children's gender care in the nhs has been based on weak evidence and has been branded scandalous by the shadow health secretary after the publication of a new study, labour's wed street wes streeting said children had been let down by a lack of research and evidence, and said the cass review was an important piece of work which raised serious concerns . the new study said the concerns. the new study said the toxicity of the debate around gender issues had meant professionals had often been too

afraid to openly discuss their medical concerns. parliamentary under—secretary for justice laura pharis says it's a problem countries across the world have been grappling with. it has been a 20 fold, something like a 15 or 20 fold increase in the number of children being referred to this service in the last 10 or 15 years, and that's happenedin last 10 or 15 years, and that's happened in many countries, many other countries. >> it's a problem. everybody's been grappling with. we're the government asked hillary government that asked hillary cass to conduct that review. this is a detailed , empirical this is a detailed, empirical scientific review that should inform the way that policy is developed. and it shouldn't be a matter of trends or feelings or social cachet on how this very sensitive issue is developed. >> pro—palestine protesters have sprayed red paint over the ministry of defence in central london today. five people were arrested for criminal damage, according to the metropolitan police, and are in custody . the police, and are in custody. the defence secretary, grant shapps, said on ex the armed forces can't and won't be intimidated.

he added those inside the defence headquarters must stand up to dictators and terrorists every day . for the latest every day. for the latest stories, do sign up to gb news alerts , scan the qr code on your alerts, scan the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. com slash alerts . slash alerts. >> the united kingdom's benefit system is losing billions of pounds of taxpayers money. your money to fraud. five bulgarian nationals have pleaded guilty to defrauding the taxpayer of more than £50 million. the five were members of an organised crime gang which filed thousands of universal credit claims between 2016 and 2021. thankfully they are all now facing years in prison in what is one of britain's biggest cases of benefit fraud . but this case benefit fraud. but this case points to much broader problems with our system. although the problem of fraud itself is important , the department of important, the department of work and pension estimates that the taxpayer was defrauded of

about £7 billion in the financial year to 2023. and for context, we got rid of that fraud. that would be enough to get rid of inheritance tax. but the problem with our system goes way beyond this. the deeper problem is simply how many people are out of work. there are currently 5.6 million working age adults on out of working age adults on out of work benefits. the majority of them are claiming universal credit about 3.8 million people. the other major component is those claiming incapacity benefits, of whom there are about 2.4 million. the universal credit was intent added to ensure that work always pays, but swathes of the country are economically inactive and claiming this benefit. for example, around a fifth of working age adults are on out of working age adults are on out of work benefits in manchester, glasgow, liverpool and birmingham , while in blackpool birmingham, while in blackpool it's as high as a quarter and this undermines the whole purpose of the universal credit . purpose of the universal credit. then we go on to incapacity benefits. the 2.4 million is

expected to rise to 3.4 million by the end of a decade. claims are up by 630,000 since before the pandemic , partly because of the pandemic, partly because of the pandemic, partly because of the large increase in those suffering from mental health issues. this costs you a fortune. £260 billion a year and is growing . that's about 20% of is growing. that's about 20% of all public expenditure, which falls on rich and poor taxpayers alike. and it's the failure to incentivise people to work that then allows it to become a lifestyle choice paid for by others. that seems to me to be the problem. reform is essential and as i said, fraud is important. it's actually a relatively small percentage of the total problem. only if we get these costs down, reduce that 260 billion can we afford to cut taxes, unleash britain's latent growth and innovation, and increase the size of the pie, as margaret thatcher used to put it for everyone, more pie all round as ever. let me know your thoughts. male margaret gb news. com but i'm now joined by the director and founder of

policy and practice, devon gilani, who was one of the architects of the universal credit. thank you so much for joining me. i think what you and iain duncan smith achieved with universal credit has been really important and was working very well, but it does seem as if post—pandemic , it's not getting post—pandemic, it's not getting people into work in the way that it used to. >> well, you saw the impact of universal credit during the pandemic. there's no way. i think the legacy system could have coped with such an increase in claims. you'd have had go in claims. you'd have had to go to three different that to three different agencies that would a huge amount would have cost a huge amount more. you're right to say it more. so you're right to say it was kind of a necessary part of it's a better system on which to build to improve. build on which to improve. i think, of think, you know, part of the question would legacy question is, would the legacy system done any better system have done any better given challenges that we're given the challenges that we're facing we facing today? and if you we covered quite a lot. we talked about benefit fraud. in your piece. a bit about, piece. we talked a bit about, the number of people long tum unemployed would the legacy system better, in system have coped any better, in those circumstances? and if you think the drivers of those

think about the drivers of those two being one, just two problems being one, just health issues, people getting unwell, not being able to get the treatment they need early enough to be able to get better and get back into work once they're out of for a long they're out of work for a long period, it's really hard to get them back in. the big them back in. and the other big driver being driver of increased costs being housing. housing bill housing. so the housing bill benefit going up and up and benefit bill going up and up and up through the last decade, up all through the last decade, despite freezes and cuts to despite some freezes and cuts to cuts housing benefit in that cuts to housing benefit in that time, two parts time, those two parts are outside of benefit system , outside of the benefit system, you need bring housing costs you need to bring housing costs down. need to improve down. you need to improve people's generally, people's health generally, and you improve their access you need to improve their access to if you want to bring to health. if you want to bring the cost the system down and the cost of the system down and the cost of the system down and the number people needing to the number of people needing to rely down. rely upon it down. >> we look at the >> but if we look at the universal credit itself, do you think that the withdrawal rate remains high so that the remains too high so that the incentivization of work isn't as great was intended to be? great as it was intended to be? when iain duncan smith set this system up ? system up? >> i think there have been huge improvements, particularly by this government, to the withdrawal so started withdrawal rate. so it started when credit was when universal credit was introduced . people lost £0.65 in

introduced. people lost £0.65 in the pound, they lose £0.55 the pound, now they lose £0.55 in the pound, after tax that can rise a little bit. but actually with national insurance cuts that's still better. and with increases in the living wage that better still. that it's better still. so people keep more people are getting to keep more pounds pence for each pounds and pence for each for each penny they earn than each penny that they earn than they then. they were able they were then. they were able to certainly then to before and certainly then under the legacy system too. so it better job of it is doing a betterjob of incentivising than the incentivising work than the legacy could be doing legacy system. could it be doing more? doing more? more? should it be doing more? yes, course, but that's about yes, of course, but that's about bringing taxes and bringing overall taxes down. and you do people to pay back you do want people to pay back their benefits their incomes their benefits as their incomes increase. about getting increase. so it's about getting the and think the balance right. and i think £0.55 off the right £0.55 is not far off the right balance. so well you can do more. i would suggest if you wanted to do more, you would increase something called the work allowance. that's the amount earn your amount you can earn before your benefits at benefits are withdrawn at all. and makes into work an and it makes moving into work an absolute no brainer for people. because that. take because you can do that. take those early steps into work and you're guaranteed no worse you're guaranteed to be no worse off. in fact, you get to keep all of the income earn, all of the income that you earn, and that's one of the points that made. and that's one of the points tha it's made.

and that's one of the points tha it's mad getting some of >> it's about getting some of the people who've been out of work a long time back into work for a long time back into work, which you both work, which is where you both need incentives, but also the job who people find job coaches who help people find suitable the suitable work, but also the sanctions. don't take sanctions. if people don't take work available, work when it's available, you need carrots as well as sticks. >> yes, exactly. and i think there's of emphasis there's been a lot of emphasis on andi there's been a lot of emphasis on and i think it's left on stick, and i think it's left people feeling bit like the people feeling a bit like the benefit system is something to avoid. way of avoiding avoid. and one way of avoiding the benefit system, or the employability is employability element of it, is to so you get to be long time sick. so you get sick, don't access to sick, you don't get access to the support you need. you get on, what's called limited capability work capability for work, or work related activity, means related activity, which means you're you're not seen by your work coach anymore. you're not expected to be seen by your work coach anymore, and if you take steps into from that steps into work from that position, lot of people in position, a lot of people are in that position today. if you take steps into work from that position, you to engage steps into work from that positthe you to engage steps into work from that positthe jobcentre.to engage steps into work from that positthe jobcentre. you1gage steps into work from that positthe jobcentre. you have to steps into work from that porinthe jobcentre. you have to steps into work from that porin every)centre. you have to steps into work from that porin every month you have to steps into work from that porin every month and have to go in every month and actually making those support schemes voluntary government last voluntary and government last yean voluntary and government last year, year's budget, did year, in last year's budget, did make effort to introduce make some effort to introduce some schemes some employment support schemes that voluntary. take that were voluntary. take your steps work if you want

steps back into work if you want to, we won't . it'll be kind to, and we won't. it'll be kind of slightly your own of slightly more on your own terms. that can be a really positive step. what you do see is not wanting to engage is people not wanting to engage with what feels like more stick than . than carrot. >> government came in >> when this government came in in 2010 as a coalition, there was a concerted effort to check that people were still unfit to work. they had to go back for checks. now, sometimes that was ridiculous . and people with ridiculous. and people with conditions that couldn't possibly improve were called back. but the reduction in that seems to have allowed people who do get better or could be helped to get better. not being called back in. and i wonder whether we need to look at that more rigorously. >> so that is still the case. you can still be called back to be reassessed, but what you're seeing is far more people applying to, you know, becoming ill for sickness ill and applying for sickness benefits , alongside similar benefits, alongside similar levels of checks perhaps the levels of checks and perhaps the kind of the health service around that not being strong enough. it's a combination of physical health issues and

mental health issues, and there's really enough there's not really enough support need that support for people who need that extra to get back into work extra help to get back into work or get into a place where or get back into a place where they can start look for work they can start to look for work again. so it's a combination of making sure you've got these factors the benefit factors outside of the benefit system, health support, factors outside of the benefit systertypes health support, factors outside of the benefit systertypes of health support, factors outside of the benefit systertypes of talking| support, factors outside of the benefit systertypes of talking therapies other types of talking therapies have been announced by government. in place have been announced by goveornent. in place have been announced by goveor ifent. in place have been announced by goveor if they in place have been announced by goveor if they are, in place have been announced by goveor if they are, they're] place have been announced by goveor if they are, they're inlace yet. or if they are, they're in very small scale pilot mode . i very small scale pilot mode. i think if you were able to roll those out faster, you could see what they were going those out faster, you could see wimake they were going those out faster, you could see wimake to they were going those out faster, you could see wimake to this, they were going those out faster, you could see wimake to this, thethezre going those out faster, you could see wimake to this, thethe number] to make to this, to the number of staying in work, of people staying in work, staying active. >> you much, devon . >> thank you very much, devon. well, with me now is my panel. a former editor of the sun, kelvin mackenzie, the historian mackenzie, and the historian broadcaster tessa dunlop, kelvin , isn't this sort of back to the 19805 , isn't this sort of back to the 1980s when you've got high unemployment and you actually disguise it because it's less embarrassing for everybody if you say it's people who are, well, well, they're certainly i mean , this is a highly technical mean, this is a highly technical discussion, really, to be truthful . truthful. >> but the reality of it is, is that there has been an explosion in mental health issues being

used by people as a form of not having to go through the rigours of simply being unemployed. now the question is, is there an explosion in mental health issues ? a and secondly, if there issues? a and secondly, if there issues? a and secondly, if there is , how on earth are we going to is, how on earth are we going to afford it? and the truth about the matter is we need people to work. we are getting less people to work, and it's costing us more money that simply, even whether your labour or conservative or green, that has to be resolved. >> i mean, tessa, this is a big issue, isn't it? because particularly for men , male particularly for men, male mental health is worse when they're out of work and therefore if they're out of work, then their mental health is likely to be worse. and then if you're giving them benefits where? yeah, there are very good statistics on this that statistics on on this where that impacted more than, as i impacted men more than, as i understand more than understand it, more than women or certainly in reports i've or certainly in the reports i've seen, i expect they're more isolated because women tend to

be communicators. be better communicators. >> more words, >> we speak more words, something staggering women >> we speak more words, somet 7000 staggering women >> we speak more words, somet 7000 words ggering women >> we speak more words, somet 7000 words a|ering women >> we speak more words, somet 7000 words a dayg women >> we speak more words, somet 7000 words a day to vomen >> we speak more words, somet 7000 words a day to men's speak 7000 words a day to men's 2000 or 27,000. >> in your case. >> thank you very much, calvin. nice to see you after easter. hope you good one, there's hope you had a good one, there's so worrying things this so many worrying things on this and actually the chicken and it's actually the chicken and it's actually the chicken and the egg. and devon i thought elucidated the issues very well. and the egg. and devon i thought elisidated the issues very well. and the egg. and devon i thought elis hugely:he issues very well. and the egg. and devon i thought elis hugely complex; very well. and the egg. and devon i thought elis hugely complex andy well. and the egg. and devon i thought elis hugely complex and iwell. and the egg. and devon i thought elis hugely complex and i heard it is hugely complex and i heard you there. try and get your little stick in a bit more stick. you know, i could see the angle were coming from angle you were coming from jacob. the truth is, you jacob. but the truth is, you can't beat dog when it's down. can't beat a dog when it's down. and you look at your and if you look at your statistics, you say 5.6 million claiming unemployment, statistics, you say 5.6 million claiming unemployment , etc. 2.4 claiming unemployment, etc. 2.4 on benefit, add on incapacity benefit, you add that up. it exactly tallies with the 7.8 million people on the nhs waiting list. and you're telling me that's not a coincidence? if i'm not, well, it's because an awful lot of those people will be retired and elderly and not in the workforce. >> so of course that's not. i'm sorry, no, but the sorry, but no, but the interesting part that is the interesting part is that is the worst of saying worst example of saying coincidence causality. it's coincidence is causality. it's clearly the case. clearly not the case. >> okay, some are elderly,

although huge numbers will be elderly. your work and pensions pensions. your work and pensions plan get people plan is desperate to get people over back into work, to over 50 back into work, to incentivise them back into work and you look at the numbers and if you look at the numbers of people for a hip or a of people waiting for a hip or a knee or goodness what you knee or goodness knows what you cannot if you are not cannot function if you are not well or you don't function as well. and the other thing that i took said it was took issue with, you said it was a choice that it becomes a choice that then it becomes when we live on benefits, it becomes a lifestyle choice. i mean, jacob, you wouldn't be able fathom what was like able to fathom what it was like to benefits. the idea to live on benefits. the idea that might choose that that one might choose that lifestyle, in it. lifestyle, you get stuck in it. i but it's not a choice. i agree, but it's not a choice. >> with these numbers and with the immigration, the high levels of immigration, what's get for what's the argument we get for migration that british people migration is that british people won't and the won't do the jobs. and the reason they won't do the jobs is they don't have the economic necessity to, or they don't have the skill set, or they don't have the mental health, or that's not where their roots and their connections home their connections and their home is a proportion it. but is a proportion of it. but you're talking about 5.6 million out work benefits , of whom out of work benefits, of whom 3.8 million are fit for work. so

there's a very large number who are not working, who are fit. >> i give you an example. there's been a terrible television recession . despite television recession. despite the success of gb news, television has had a terrible recession, with over half of producers and directors out of work . one of the best emmy work. one of the best emmy award—winning directors i know spent months out of work spent three months out of work should was is he allowed should was he is he allowed having paid taxes all his life to claim unemployment benefit for or does to claim unemployment benefit for go or does to claim unemployment benefit forgo and or does to claim unemployment benefit forgo and strawberry or does to claim unemployment benefit forgo and strawberry pick? does to claim unemployment benefit forgo and strawberry pick? ohes he go and strawberry pick? oh no, it's not strawberry no, no, it's not strawberry season yet. >> he actually be able >> he actually wouldn't be able to because he'd have too to claim because he'd have too much. he'd have many, too much. he'd have too many, too many unless, well, many assets unless, well, actually, not true. actually, that's not true. >> too many children. he >> has too many children. he doesn't that assets, doesn't have that many assets, but legitimate case in my but it's a legitimate case in my own family. >> in my own family, the >> in my own family, in the television to business, have lost their jobs and are struggling to find it. >> so are they allowed to claim or do they, do they or do you then say go and become an uber driver? forget being a director at the moment. >> they're still looking for work their own industry .

work within their own industry. but the truth about the matter is the television business and all media businesses. i don't expect viewers to start expect the viewers to start dropping a tear about this are in the most terrible, terrible time. the truth? but isn't time. but the truth? but isn't the of it that there the reality of it that there is plenty to made, by plenty of money to be made, by not no, not plenty of money. there is money to be made by not going through the state system so that you can you can claim your you can claim your, your benefits. and at the same time you can be cash in hand . that you can be cash in hand. that has been going on for donkey's years. what we have layered on top of this is now sickness. oh, that's a better way of doing it. >> all right, well, we're going to have to move on. but thank you to my panel coming up, the prime minister facing a prime minister is facing a cabinet the question cabinet revolt over the question of the european of leaving the european convention rights. convention on human rights. and it rachel reeves is still it seems rachel reeves is still trying convince me to vote.

labour well. welcome back. we've been talking about benefits and fraud. and martin says pay rises of 2% and pay freezes. yet benefits are by inflation. no wonder people getting part time rent paid, reduced council tax, etc. payments reduced broadband, free dental, etc, etc. why on earth work on minimum wage full time? and jim says do you think a mandatory id card would stop some of the fraud you've been talking about? don't, talking about? no, i don't, because they're fraudsters, because if they're fraudsters, they cards . it they forge the id cards. it would be a bore for the would only be a bore for the innocent. after two years, there are still no flights to rwanda. an illegal migrants flood into the country. yet it's not the government, but the european court of human rights stalling these . how can it be these flights. how can it be that the will of an elected government is being thwarted by an unelected body? is simply an unelected body? it is simply absurd the further overreach absurd and the further overreach shown by european court on shown by the european court on green is additional green issues is additional evidence that we must leave the convention and the court's jurisdiction. the prime minister has hinted at doing exactly this apparently faces opposition from his cabinet. he ought to

overrule them so that he can deliver what the british people want. panel is still want. well, my panel is still with . tessa dunlop and kelvin with me. tessa dunlop and kelvin mackenzie. tessa. the british people want illegal migration stopped , parliament wants it stopped, parliament wants it stopped. and the european court has batty views on green issues and likes illegal migration. isn't it time we pulled out? >> i saw that little fist creeping towards me there as you made each unpleasant point. i mean, i'm actually not sure where you get these ideas from. do we all have an obsession about stopping illegal immigration to the point that we have to turn our own legal system into a sort of blue cheese, where we say, oh, you know, the moon now has mountains on it, i.e. rwanda is a safe place to go. so i, for one, am very grateful that the echr exists. i want to just sound a note of caution. the 12 cabinet members who were against this move vehemently against it are not the tory headbangers. they're vaguely normal conservatives. no, no. like hunt

, for example, like the quite good northern ireland secretary hunt, who was in favour of william wragg being a brave man for actually giving . for actually giving. >> i don't know how many 18 phone numbers. about colleagues to a to a sex blackmailer that that hunt hunt has been a disaster and he's going to get thrown out at ash and, and ash and godalming come november and i'll be delighted and. no, no, i've just responding to your sense that he was a, that he was a good guy. he's not a good guy. >> which, which country was the first nation in 1951 to ratify the european convention of human rights? >> we didn't, which we didn't. we didn't ratify it on the basis of it being a living document. right. and it's been a complete united kingdom. >> it's been. >> it's been. >> you said it's our >> and but you said it's our legal system. no, not. this legal system. no, it's not. this is add on to our legal system is an add on to our legal system of novel kind that was made of a novel kind that was made worse by the human rights act of tony blair. and it's undermining the law and the basic

the common law and the basic constitutional principle of the sovereignty parliament. constitutional principle of the sov this nty parliament. constitutional principle of the sov this was parliament. constitutional principle of the sov this was a parliament. constitutional principle of the sovthis was a courtiment. constitutional principle of the sovthis was a court introduced >> this was a court introduced to oversee the convention of human rights, which we deemed a necessity. even there was talk about it during the latter stages of the second world war. and if we leave, we align ourselves with russia and belarus. we undermine the good friday agreement we undermine the hard fought eu, uk trade agreement and we batter our reputation difference. it makes difference, no difference to the trade agreement with the eu. >> they can they can break the trade agreement with us. notice if they want to any time. if they want to at any time. >> now where's the camera. don't allow the gender authority gap which you believe which means that you believe what says over what what jacob says over what i say to the truth of what jacob says over what i say to matter the truth of what jacob says over what i say to matter here. the truth of the matter here. >> trade agreement is >> the trade agreement is cancelable at a year's notice. they do that if they want they can do that if they want to. the safeguard we're to. the safeguard whether we're in the the safeguard, the in the echr, the safeguard, the safeguard has done enough damage already. the safeguards relate to ireland, and to northern ireland, right. and they brought law they have been brought into law for ireland. for northern ireland. that safeguard delivered on safeguard has been delivered on under friday agreement. under the good friday agreement.

you both excellent you and i both know. excellent report by centre for brexit report by the centre for brexit research points this all research that points this all out reading. out and is well worth reading. rather regurgitating these rather than regurgitating these bogus about the good bogus points about the good friday agreement, which inaccurate. >> with the brexit think >> with that, the brexit think tank that told us brexit was going to a good idea and grow going to be a good idea and grow the economy. >> a new thing as i >> it's a new brexit thing as i think we just need to hold firm here because we don't want to further batter our international reputation for cooperation. come on, there on, jacob putin sitting there terrified to sleep . terrified to sleep. >> join him, join him around the table. the reality of it all is that, unfortunately, what's going to happen is that rishi, as with most other things, is going to talk a rather good game and actually do nothing about it. and if he includes it in the manifesto, it will, it will, it will disappear into into thin air. i'm afraid, i'm afraid. it was a nice thing to say for an interview, for somebody starting a podcast . which, which is which a podcast. which, which is which is where he disclosed it the other he's never going to other day. he's never going to do it. and as for hunt and co, if they all wanted to quit the cabinet, it would be the best thing could happen to the

thing that could happen to the conservatives so i, conservatives right now. so i, l, conservatives right now. so i, i, i don't admire rishi for i, i, i don't admire rishi for saying it. would admire rishi saying it. i would admire rishi for it and if the if the for doing it and if the if the cabinet don't agree with him, then afraid that the then i'm afraid that the numbers, which i are now numbers, which i think are now something below 150 mps at the next election, look as though they'll be beneath 100. so, rishi, here's your chance. if you want to have any chance at all, do it. don't keep talking about it. >> and calvin's basically right, isn't he? that if you look at what's happening politically, the country and other countries want conservative solutions . and want conservative solutions. and if there are 12 cabinet ministers offering lib dem solutions , then that's not going solutions, then that's not going to do the conservatives any favours at all. >> well, look what's happened in poland now charge. poland with tusk now in charge. it's true that every single it's not true that every single country veering towards the country is veering towards the right. macron, still right. some are. macron, still in an exception. and in power, is an exception. and he's in germany. he's laughing in germany. and i'm so sorry. i've just named three. >> and well macron's been moving desperately to the right to catch can't move catch up. he can't move fast enough he's a big row enough and he's had a big row with the european union over farmers and got the european

union abandon its green union to abandon its green policies support his farmers, union to abandon its green po stop; support his farmers, union to abandon its green po stop; surioting. s farmers, union to abandon its green posright. surioting. s farmers, union to abandon its green posright. i'm'ioting. s farmers, union to abandon its green posright. i'm'iotirsuggesting s, union to abandon its green posright. i'm'iotirsuggesting for >> right. i'm not suggesting for one france is a one moment that france is a paragon virtue, but to paragon of virtue, but to suggest, actually good that we have to all become semi headbangers like you'll find yourself. delightful. yourself. you're so delightful. until political until i get you onto a political subject, reassert subject, we have to reassert parliamentary sovereignty and the the voters against the power of the voters against the power of the voters against the the unelected , left the power of the unelected, left wing for those people who wing elite. for those people who have been obsessively have not been obsessively watching television watching the television news, what's triggered is what's triggered this is a ruling that our governments are culpable for climate and culpable for climate change and for protecting us from the for not protecting us from the worst aspects of climate change, and you just need to look and see what's happening in russia at the moment. and it was one of the things that devalues. >> it's one of the things that devalues the court. seen devalues the court. we've seen enough would enough problems. i would like our be able our country to be able specifically we do not specifically to say, we do not want people here. we're want these people here. we're going to send them to rwanda and find out if they are in fact, able to come here. and i do not want anybody , whether it's echr want anybody, whether it's echr or any other kind of court or any other kind of people, to tell us, no, you can't do that.

and why on earth would you be in favour of this outside body telling you what to do ? tessa, telling you what to do? tessa, i know you. you nobody. a traffic warden can't tell you what to do. god knows why you billie eilish echr you don't believe in collaboration. you prove it on this panel . this panel. >> all right, well, thank you to tessa and kelvin. coming up next, amnesty international has disgraced eulogises disgraced itself as it eulogises a who led a palestinian a man who led a palestinian group that mutilated an israeli soldier . group that mutilated an israeli soldier. plus, i'll be revealing if rachel reeves has convinced me to vote labour or not, that won't be much of a reveal, will it?

well, we've been having a pretty feisty conversation on the european convention on human rights. and your mail has been equally feisty. linda says i campaigned and voted for leave, mainly the belief that we mainly on the belief that we were leaving the echr take back

control being one of the slogans. feel totally betrayed slogans. i feel totally betrayed by government . and jose says by the government. and jose says maybe the eu ought to maybe the uk and the eu ought to invoke article 15, allows contracting states to derogate from certain rights guaranteed by the convention in a time of war or other public emergency threatening the life of the nation. well the nation being undermined wing jurist undermined by left wing jurist prudence, perhaps the most often cited human rights organisation on the israel—palestine conflict is amnesty international. it has mastered the art of appearing to be a neutral body, purely interested in the well—being of all. however, amnesty has once again tarnished its reputation , again tarnished its reputation, although it hasn't yet stopped official bodies quoting it as an authoritative source. it's worth remembering that amnesty decided that alexei navalny was not a prisoner of conscience because he made , quote, discriminatory he made, quote, discriminatory statements before it made a humiliating u—turn. amnesty is back with another blunder . today back with another blunder. today it released a statement saying the death in custody of waleed

dadkhah, a 62 year old palestinian writer who was the longest serving palestinian prisoner in israeli jails after 38 years of imprisonment, is a cruel reminder of israel's disregard for palestinians right to life . but this was a man who to life. but this was a man who was a leader of a palestinian marxist group that kidnapped, mutilated, tortured and then shot in the head. a 19 year old israeli soldier in the 1980s. it really does beg the question if amnesty really cares for human rights at all? well, i'm very pleased to be joined by a friend of the program, regular contributor and human rights campaigner peter tatchell. peter, thank you very much for joining me . this man was found joining me. this man was found guilty of being associated with not being directly implicated , not being directly implicated, but associated with a group that carried out a brutal torture and murder. he sent to prison. murder. he was sent to prison. for that. he received medical treatment whilst in prison and died prison . surely amnesty died in prison. surely amnesty is overstating the case in what it said . it said. >> well, the facts of the case

are that waleed was convicted of commanding a group that did that terrible atrocity which i absolutely condemn. moshe tamam was a soldier. it was a conflict situation, but that's no excuse for torturing and mutilating a man's body. and then executing him in cold blood. that's unforgivable . but it's very unforgivable. but it's very clear from what his own testimony that he has very strenuously denied that he did command that group. he had nothing to do with the killing whatsoever, the israeli authorities were not able to absolutely prove, that he did command that group, he's always denied that , and those denied that, and those circumstances, you have to look at his trial. his trial was not under normal israeli jurisprudence. it was under british emergency legislation from the 1940s, which has a quite low standard of proof. so it's not beyond reasonable

doubt. it's where there's circumstantial evidence . and i circumstantial evidence. and i think on those grounds, we can dispute whether he was guilty or not. but he did serve his sentence . he did serve his 37 sentence. he did serve his 37 year sentence in prison. he paid his price. and sadly , when he his price. and sadly, when he developed bone marrow cancer in 2022 and started dying, the israeli authorities not only continued to subject him to ill treatment, including beatings in prison, but they denied him medical treatment , denied him medical treatment, denied him adequate food, and also denied him the right to say goodbye to his wife and children. so whatever you think of the crime, which was horrific, that was not something that the israeli government ought to have done . government ought to have done. you know, they are a rule based society, a rule based government. >> but they didn't kill him . i >> but they didn't kill him. i mean, if you if you take, the americans with al—qaeda, they took out bin laden. they just killed him as the leader of the

group. they didn't arrest him and hold him in prison. this man was held in prison. he went through a process. you may say it wasn't the normal process, but a standard of proof was applied. and leaders of terrorist groups very often say that they weren't the leader of the group. you wouldn't expect them necessarily to admit it . them necessarily to admit it. and it seems to me, to me, that amnesty, which is meant to be an independent group rather than one that takes sides in this, is supporting the palestinian side in this instance. >> well, in this particular case, amnesty was not saying or justifying what walid is alleged to have done . it was simply to have done. it was simply talking about the legal process that he had served his time and that he had served his time and that he had served his time and that he did die in prison because the israelis denied him adequate food and medical treatment . and that's that's the treatment. and that's that's the issue. that's the issue here. you know, no one is saying that what was done to that young man was right. it was not right. it was right. it was not right. it was horrific. i condemn all right.

>> thank you very much, peter. well, my panel is still with me, kelvin mackenzie and tess dunlop. kelvin, i want to get back to what amnesty actually said said his death said because it said his death in custody is a cruel reminder of israel's disregard for palestinians right to life. and it says this of somebody who was tried and imprisoned and died in prison. but having received medical treatment, that doesn't seem to me to be a cruel reminder. know of anything? >> that's why i take issue with what was just said there. there is no example. i have read. i've read around it. i obviously i wasn't there of him being treated poorly , and the reason treated poorly, and the reason that he was still in jail, he had done his 37 years. he got another two years for supplying mobile phones to other inmates within within the jail. so he was a burden, right until the end. however, what is bizarre, by the way , is that he managed by the way, is that he managed to smuggle out his own semen and he has a he has a four year old child. so the reality is that

amnesty, i think, are wooing what they it's a piece of pr on behalf of them, on behalf of amnesty to say, look, we're on the side of the terrorists. >> and this is what worries me, tessa, that amnesty has become quite political in this sense, that it thinks one side is right andifs that it thinks one side is right and it's unsympathetic to the israeli side in the conflict that's going on, at the moment, i think perhaps because if you're on the ground, it's quite hard to remain an impartial, if you look , was this man a threat? you look, was this man a threat? >> he was dying of bone marrow cancer. >> he was dying of bone marrow cancer . he wasn't given the cancer. he wasn't given the appropriate medical treatment. he wasn't given. have you read that? >> i haven't seen that anywhere. >> i haven't seen that anywhere. >> well, that's according to amnesty international. so you're now don't believe now saying we don't believe a word say? well, why should word they say? well, why should we? should believe? we? why should we believe? >> why should we if their >> well, why should we if their attitude going be attitude is going to be political in in a war, in political pr in in a war, in a war zone, you i wouldn't believe a word they contestable and we can go back to what peter tatchell said. >> incontestable that he was

convicted british convicted under british emergency dating to emergency law dating back to 1945. incontestable that actually require , actually that didn't require, concrete evidence, just circumstantial evidence in contestable that he had already served his sentence and he was no longer a threat. no, he had served his sentence. >> he was given an extra two years because of all those kids who racked up in israeli who are racked up in israeli jails, those palestinian children in jails. >> i'm glad he was teaching them to read. i'm glad he was teaching them to you. i'm glad you were glad he was helping them. yeah >> you're approving israeli >> so you're approving israeli law, you're him as law, so you're backing him as a law, so you're backing him as a law breaker? >> i approve that he was trying to. >> holding him in prison is not cruel. when he's committed offences. >> but you and i both know that actually, the conditions in in, in, in, in, in israeli prisons for palestinian they are in russian prisons. absolutely. >> and on navalny. oh that's our benchmark is if you right. >> but let's compare israel with russia. >> navalny. they said he was not a prisoner of conscience and then changed their mind. >> can i take you back to 2023, when khader adnan died after 87

days of a hunger strike protesting as so many palestinian prisoners do? the only way they know how? by withdrawing from food hunger strike that didn't make him right or innocent. >> well , the point is that they >> well, the point is that they are protesting against conditions . conditions. >> yes. well, so was bobby sands. >> are you now defending ihra terrorists, too? i'm not defending our terrorists, but does that make you right? no, it doesn't. >> it doesn't make you right. but it does suggest there may be an issue here. i think the conditions in the prisons at the end of it all, he actually had a he into his 60s. he lived into his 60s. >> was a terrorist. he was >> he was a terrorist. he was proud to be a terrorist. and he died in an israeli jail. i do not drop a tear for him. and i'm amazed that amnesty international a pretty reasonable organisation, to be fair, right, should suddenly decide to adopt this position when they knew when they said this that all that would happen is they'd end up with debates like this. >> if we could just go back to

khader adnan because he's not like for like with bobby sands, because that man who died last year an 87 day hunger year after an 87 day hunger strike, never been charged strike, had never been charged and no trial. so. so and he had no trial. so. so actually, what's happening behind doors? it's actually, what's happening behin democratically it's actually, what's happening behin democratically elected, okay. democratically elected, you israel. you know, government israel. really? they're thugs. >> you're trying to you're trying to equate a democratically elected country with collection of terrorist, with a collection of terrorist, iranian backed groups in the middle east. are you are you honestly saying that you would rather have iran? don't you rather have iran? don't you rather have iran run israel? they want to run israel out of it. so does the other side. nobody wants israel to be in the middle east. that's what this is about. you know, the truth is people and it's and it's and it's strangers like you wandering around, starting to say what a great place iran is. what a fantastic place. >> i've never said that. don't put words in my mouth. oh, i've never said that. there our greatest friends. i've never said that people. greatest friends. i've never sdill that people. greatest friends. i've never sdill am people. greatest friends. i've never sdill am sick ple. tired of. >> i am sick and tired of. people who are in a comfortable position believing position like you, believing that democracy be

destructed. >> i just think we need to be honest the kind of honest about the kind of democracy is . we need to democracy israel is. we need to be honest it, be honest be honest about it, be honest about religious zionist about the religious zionist party, about likud, party, honest about likud, honest what they for . honest about what they for. stand but the terrorism that they backed, the occupation of they backed, the occupation of the bank, that back. the west bank, that they back. i won't it, kelvin. won't have it, kelvin. >> we will be honest. have >> we will be honest. you have had it, i said. >> it was my most pugnacious panel >> it was my most pugnacious panel, coming up panel, and i lieth not coming up next. has been accused next. tescos has been accused of profiteering inflation profiteering and using inflation as charge you more as an excuse to charge you more money. plus rachel reeves continues fight my vote continues to fight for my vote by policy

well, as you know, we're very lucky to live in this blessed country. a country that's economy is not centrally managed , not completely planned, and allows free market trade. people can enrich themselves through hard work. and there's no shortage of opportunity . profit shortage of opportunity. profit is good. and to be encouraged.

it's the premium paid for efficiency over state or bureaucratic control . so tesco's bureaucratic control. so tesco's profit of £2.8 billion, which sounds enormous, doesn't show profiteering. but the competitiveness of the supermarket industry, it represents a margin of just over 4. perhaps we should thank aldi and lidl for making this market so efficient. the supermarkets that have improved choice and standards of living, probably more than any politician , has in more than any politician, has in the last 50 years. with me now is my panel . the last 50 years. with me now is my panel. i've calmed down from the last segment of the former editor of the sun, kelvin mackenzie, and the historian and broadcaster the broadcaster tessa dunlop. the profit motive is really very important, isn't it? >> you want them to be. >> and so you want them to be. and actually, one of the reasons why they've done well is because and where capitalism has and this is where capitalism has worked people , is that worked against people, is that both asda and morrison, morrisons are are completely loaded down with debt through their private equity owners. a huge, huge error when interest rates go like that. so they have done disastrously . tesco's not

done disastrously. tesco's not loaded down with debt, actually have done splendidly. i'm massively in favour of it and having got a discount through the clubcard on buying some porridge the other day, i can say thanks very much. so i am so we want we want our companies to make money. this is one of the great, one of the great things. i'm speaking to an american businessman the other day and i said, how's it going on over here? and he said, he said, fine. he said, but the people are very nice. he said, but nobody to talk about nobody seems to talk about making money. we need to make money. what's happened is money. and what's happened is that i the left that the i think the left argument that in some way, profits are bad has now become all pervasive. it is ridiculous. we need to have more tesco's to an extent. >> what does worry me? and my father was a farmer and he always said, you know, the supermarkets in britain squeezed the farmers to pipsqueak. that's true. and there is a cartel aspect to the way in which our

supermarkets operate. and i think people will smell something a bit unsavoury around that in profit. i mean , that hike in profit. i mean, 159% hike in profit when we are just tailing out of a period of rampant inflation, like what is tesco's been tricking us on and unless we forget, they play dirty too. they're currently having to pay x million pounds because they've off lidl because they've cribbed off lidl , the logos, etc. so there's dirty games on. >> interesting that when i first heard this profit had gone up so much i assumed it was that they'd jumped on the bandwagon of inflation pricing, but actually a 4% margin isn't actually a 4% net margin isn't that high. and if they were to pay that high. and if they were to pay more to farmers, they'd have to charge their customers more. so do you want higher prices for customers? i don't want higher pnces customers? i don't want higher prices for customers, but i do want healthy competition. >> i do wonder when >> and i do wonder worry when tesco's grows, talking of tesco's grows, which talking of healthy competition, there's healthy competition, there's healthy my vote healthy competition for my vote because that because i recently revealed that rachel sent me a rachel reeves had sent me a jolly letter, which included a heartwarming about her heartwarming story about her

mother's as well as mother's frugality as well as her time at the bank of england. >> i explained i wasn't >> i explained that i wasn't going to for labour going to vote for the labour party it would do so much party as it would do so much damage to the country, but rachel hasn't given up rachel reeves hasn't given up on earning vote yet. indeed, earning my vote yet. indeed, she's hmrc staff she's promised to get hmrc staff back the office to boost back to the office to boost customer service, which in my mind straight seems be mind straight seems to be straight out of the rees—mogg playbook. credit playbook. as ever, the credit goes political editor goes to our political editor christopher hope. >> one of the reasons why we lose so much is that lose out on so much tax is that simple questions are not answered the phone is answered because the phone is not answered. my personal preference be in the preference is to be in the office colleagues. find office with colleagues. i find that productive , more that i'm more productive, more efficient, able to talk to my colleagues, learn and colleagues, able to learn and interact. i think whether you work the public or private work in the public or private sector , productivity is likely sector, productivity is likely to most cases if to be higher in most cases if we're in the office with colleagues. >> yeah, well, this is the most sensible thing i've ever heard rachel reeves say. we need people back in the office. it'll boost productivity. >> we do. and there is a contradiction at the heart of what's going on here, because angela rayner, we has been angela rayner, we know, has been pushing more flexible hours

pushing for more flexible hours for school pickup be for and school pickup to be factored working day, factored into the working day, etc. worry the etc. i do always worry about the invisibility the worker, invisibility of the worker, because to be the women because it tends to be the women who that bear the who are the ones that bear the brunt the domestic, and brunt of the domestic, and therefore they're the that therefore they're the ones that aren't and therefore it's aren't seen and therefore it's the that climb the greasy the men that climb the greasy pole. could just bring pole. so if i could just bring gender into this, actually it benefits they're seen benefits women if they're seen in workplace. and i can see in the workplace. and i can see that that's level, it's that that's on some level, it's difficult always deliver on difficult to always deliver on rachel the fact rachel reeves. i love the fact that the telegraph turned this into how you into a story about how if you call the universal credit call up the universal credit line, get your call answered line, you get your call answered in 1.3 minutes, and if you call up the tax to pay your tax, up the tax line to pay your tax, you to wait for 20 minutes. you have to wait for 20 minutes. not experience. when the not in my experience. when the budget i was budget came along and i was suddenly told that i was an applicable once again for child benefit, minutes benefit, i waited 40 minutes on the 40 minutes. the phone. okay. 40 minutes. >> she's right, >> well, look, she's right, she's right that people should go work. but actually all go to work. but actually all all governments, government as governments, tory government as well from one well are now saying from day one you your boss and say, you can go to your boss and say, i want flexible working, right? which i i want to work which i mean, i want to work from home. look understand the from home. look i understand the financial attraction for it.

what i don't understand, you know, we are losing market share all over the world. we need people who are absolutely committed to work. the work life balance thing, right is a nice thing to say, but it is not going to pay the pay. >> the truth is , while i don't >> the truth is, while i don't think we should have flexible working days and you can be working days and you can be working from home every day, i do think if you want the best workers, you have to offer them a nonsense. a two way a package. nonsense. a two way package. >> workers are driven and want to be in the office, but driven doesn't necessarily mean always working the office. working from the office. >> or 3 days. >> no, 2 or 3 days. >> millions at goldman sachs want in the office. that's want to be in the office. that's how they make their money. >> maybe at goldman sachs, it's just the trading and the just to be the trading and the armpit thing and look like, you know, testosterone fuelled idiots. lot idiots. but actually a lot of the are brilliantly the reasons they are brilliantly clever traders, give clever traders, why not give them of the them some credit? one of the reasons why must everybody be an idiot? why are idiot? why teachers are struggling recruit sufficient struggling to recruit sufficient numbers have to numbers is because you have to be the coalface in front of be at the coalface in front of those kids, day in, day out.

there's a shift. you don't there's been a shift. you don't have pandemic have something called a pandemic and it your and three lockdowns. was it your government without government gifted us without actually feeling the ramifications that ? they're ramifications of that? they're not my friends. they had another one. no. if you'd locked down soonen one. no. if you'd locked down sooner, you might have had to have locked down for less. but the point is, the workplace has changed dinosaurs like changed and dinosaurs like kelvin liked flirting kelvin might have liked flirting with and the heels in the with the pa and the heels in the 19805 with the pa and the heels in the 1980s a liquid 1980s and going for a liquid lunch. it's about you. lunch. but it's not about you. >> what do you do? you >> you. what do you do? you don't meet anybody anyway. >> come here you >> come in here and meet you once week that's enough once a week and that's enough for the week. >> arctic? yes. >> arctic? yes. >> well, i think that was a very good way of looking at it, but i'm delighted i'm absolutely delighted we're winning this idea. winning converts to this idea. perhaps to perhaps you'll send letters to people sorry to have people saying sorry not to have seen at your desk, which seen you at your desk, which i have a memory that somebody did not long ago. an not so long ago. well, an italian crisp manufacturer has sparked fury catholic tv sparked fury amongst catholic tv viewers, some of viewers, or at least some of them, was them, after an advert was broadcast depicting mother broadcast depicting a mother superior blessed superior replacing the blessed sacrament . the sacrament with their snack. the depiction has left many viewers are . i can't hear, we .just

are. i can't hear, we. just right. sorry about that. i thought we were going to hear what they were saying. the depiction has left many viewers a bit fried. leading catholic campaign groups to accuse the outlet of resorting to blasphemy campaign groups to accuse the ouincrease�*sorting to blasphemy campaign groups to accuse the ouincrease�*sorsales. blasphemy campaign groups to accuse the ouincrease�*sorsales. biseemsny to increase its sales. it seems there snowflakes , even there are some snowflakes, even within holy mother church, and that neglected to that they've neglected to remember and remember that our benevolent and omnipotent have some omnipotent god must have some sense . he is, after sense of humour. he is, after all, from somerset. on the all, from somerset. if, on the other hand , i'm wrong, it's the other hand, i'm wrong, it's the makers of this advert rather than the potatoes that fry than the potatoes that will fry in specially furnace. in a specially demonic furnace. so no one on earth needs to worry unduly. the matter is in the hands of a higher and wiser authority. well that's all from me. up next is patrick christys patrick. have you got some cnsps patrick. have you got some crisps on your bill of fare this evening? >> no, but i am very glad that you are at your desk this evening. jacob. look, today is a victory everybody who has victory for everybody who has been fighting against the mutilation father ted, mutilation of kids. father ted, writer linehan nearly writer graham linehan nearly lost at the hands of the lost it all at the hands of the trans he joins me on this trans mafia. he joins me on this show. anderson's got an

show. lee anderson's got an exclusive he reveals, exclusive for us. he reveals, actually, exactly people actually, exactly how people tried blackmail him, which tried to blackmail him, which he's spoken before. he's never spoken about before. bulgarians the centre of an bulgarians at the centre of an £11 billion benefits fraud scandal our head to head scandal and our head to head tonight rishi sunak the worst tonight is rishi sunak the worst prime ever? jacob prime minister ever? jacob >> oh, you can't possibly say that. >> e- e great man e— e great man and we'll be >> he's a great man and we'll be supporting him loyally in the run general run up to the general election. it's a that lee has left it's a pity that lee has left us. i'm sorry that he's been blackmailed. that will be an always exciting program . i will always exciting program. i will be back tomorrow at 8:00. i am jacob rees—mogg. this has been state of the nation and you're about to get the weather. and i know that somerset, god's own know that in somerset, god's own county, absolutely county, it will be absolutely glorious blasphemous glorious and no blasphemous cnsps. crisps. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb views. >> hello there. good evening. well, after a rather overcast day, there's going to be more in the way of dry and bright weather on the way tomorrow. but for tonight there's still some

further rain to come. that's as these weather fronts that have lingered across the northwest continue these continue to push into these northwestern . they'll northwestern areas. they'll also sink south more sink further south to bring more southern areas , some outbreaks southern areas, some outbreaks of rain through the night, so it will fairly cloudy, with will stay fairly cloudy, with drizzly continuing across drizzly rain continuing across northern this main northern scotland. but this main rain band actually sinks further south into parts of wales , the south into parts of wales, the midlands and then it sits across the south by tomorrow the south coast. by tomorrow morning. much weaker morning. it's a much weaker feature, it will bring lot feature, but it will bring a lot of cloud these areas . of cloud to these areas. elsewhere, though, it should be a drier and clearer start to the day. it's going to be a very day. but it's going to be a very mild start tomorrow. temperatures much temperatures not dipping much below for most below ten degrees for most areas. be quite areas. there will be quite a brisk southwesterly breeze overnight. winds should overnight. those winds should ease through the day and actually the actually across the east and the north. going to be a dry north. it's going to be a dry and bright day, a much better day than today, and it's going to in that to feel quite warm in that sunshine. different sunshine. indeed. a different story across the south story though, across the south and west in particular, where the linger for much the cloud will linger for much of day, we could see some of the day, we could see some drizzly outbreaks of rain, particularly across the coast and ground. now and over the high ground. now for rain returns for friday, the rain returns into north—west, northern

into the north—west, so northern ireland, western ireland, much of western scotland another fairly scotland will see another fairly wet but the rain will be wet day, but the rain will be much more compared to much more limited compared to today. think many eastern today. so i think many eastern areas, of scotland, should areas, even of scotland, should get fairly dry day. get away with a fairly dry day. and across the south it looks like should staying fairly like it should be staying fairly dry as well. temperatures still on milder of things for on the milder side of things for the of year into the the time of year into the weekend. it's similar story as well. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on

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