hello. good evening. it's me, not him. that's right. gb news. political editor christopher hope standing in for sir jacob rees—mogg, who is busy tonight being an mp. the job you pay him to do on state of the nation tonight, a northern irish court may have dealt a blow to the rwanda plan after ruling it cannot apply because of the windsor framework and good friday agreement. but does this further weaken the connection between great britain and northern ireland? common sense minister esther mcvey is set to scrap diversity and inclusion. whitehall jobs that she has termed woke hobby horses. but why is she taking waited so long to do this and the labour party

has urged the government to halt arms sales to israel following concerns of its military offensive in rafah. but should israel be allowed to finish the job properly of destroying hamas? plus, i'll be speaking to the editor of the unherd website of the government crackdown and promise to stop funding an organisation blocking the website's advertisement . state website's advertisement. state of the nation starts . of the nation starts. here. i'll also be joined by a theatrical panel this evening. barrister and former tory mp jerry hayes, and the author and broadcaster amy nicole turner. as always , i want to hear from as always, i want to hear from you as a crucial part of our programme. email me mailmogg@gbnews.com. but now it's mailmogg@gbnews.com. but now wsfime mailmogg@gbnews.com. but now it's time for the news bulletin with tamsin roberts. >> christopher, thanks very

much. and here are the top stories from the gb newsroom. rishi sunak has warned that giving sir keir starmer the keys to number 10 would leave the country less safe. the labour leader rejected the prime minister's claim, saying that as a former director of public prosecutions, he knows the importance of security first hand. but rishi sunak says only the conservatives have bold ideas for the future . ideas for the future. >> despite having 14 years with nothing to do but think about the future , labour have almost the future, labour have almost nothing to say about it . no nothing to say about it. no plans for our border, no plans for our energy security, no plans for our economy either. and no principles either. keir starmer has gone from embracing jeremy corbyn to natalie elphicke , all in the cynical elphicke, all in the cynical pursuit of power at any price. so labour have no ideas what they did have. they view turned on. >> the health secretary has defended the government's record on maternity care after a major

new report revealed endemic failures at hospitals. it found mums to be are often treated as an inconvenience, with some women mocked or shouted at and denied basic needs such as pain relief. the birth trauma inquiry is calling for a national plan to improve services led by a new maternity commissioner, who would report directly to the prime minister to the us. now and donald trump's former lawyer, michael cohen has taken to the witness stand at his criminal trial. he's told jurors today he secretly colluded with mr trump and a tabloid publisher to suppress negative stories that could damage trump's 2016 campaign. mr cohen used to be one of the former president's most trusted colleagues, but he's now the prosecution's star witness . as the so—called hush witness. as the so—called hush money trial enters its fifth week, a man is facing life in prison for murdering a woman dunng prison for murdering a woman during a series of violent attacks in south london. 34 year

old mohamed noor was armed with a makeshift blade when he attacked johanna kwasi watchdog which? in broad daylight last may. he admitted her murder and to having a blade made from scissors, but denied carrying out similar attacks . in the days out similar attacks. in the days before her death . the king has before her death. the king has officially handed over the role officially handed over the role of colonel in chief of the army air corps to the prince of wales , in a rare engagement involving both the current monarch and his heir, his majesty formally handed over the title he's held for the past 32 years. the king said it was a great joy to meet servicemen during today's visit to middle wallop in hampshire. prince william will now represent the army's air wing, which includes the unit once served by his brother . those are served by his brother. those are the top stories for all the latest sign up to gb news alerts. just scan the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. common alerts now it's back to

christopher . christopher. >> welcome back to state of the nation. now, earlier today, a court in northern ireland might have dealt a significant blow to rishi sunaks rwanda plan after the dublin government claimed that 80% of recent arrivals of asylum seekers in ireland had crossed the border from the north. the court ruled that the uk government will not be allowed to deport migrants to rwanda under the illegal migration act, so if rules apply in mainland britain , but not in in mainland britain, but not in northern ireland, can we really say this is a united kingdom? many unionists would doubt that and would say, as a consequence of rishi sunaks windsor framework, the judge in question, mrjustice humphreys, also argued that parts of the act were incompatible with the european convention on human rights. but we knew that already, didn't we? because part of the purpose of the safety of rwanda bill now an act was to satisfy concerns raised by strasbourg. but the real

question is this if parliament is sovereign, why is the judge in the uk citing a foreign court well written? if the windsor framework, the agreement signed by the prime minister, rishi sunak, and ursula von der leyen, the eu commission chief last yean the eu commission chief last year, which finalised the status of northern ireland in the post—brexit agreement, is that eu law is supreme in northern ireland. brexit. turns out only to be for those in england , to be for those in england, scotland and wales, but not in northern ireland. therefore for the whole of the uk, sir jacob rees—mogg , normally the rees—mogg, normally the presenter of this programme, warned this would happen and that's why he and other tory and dup mps voted against that windsor framework. they argued that boris johnson's original plan was preferable. this was through the northern ireland protocol bill, which was in the house of lords at the time of the windsor framework agreement, and had intended to help the uk regain sovereignty over ulster.

some argue that such a breach. such a move would breach international law, but the eurosceptic wing of the party argued against this. but one cannot help wondering whether , cannot help wondering whether, if rishi sunak's government has stuck with the original plan that boris johnson had for the protocol bill, would northern ireland now be as much a member of the uk as england, scotland or wales? means that the judgement that we saw today couldn't be possible , whilst the couldn't be possible, whilst the judgement while, whilst the government has confirmed that it is now detaining migrants for the first rwanda deportation flights, it now seems very possible that we'll be seeing an exodus of migrants leaving great britain for northern ireland, with the knowledge that the may well escape deportation after this ruling, as jacob himars himself has jokingly suggested on this programme , from a more on this programme, from a more tory point of view, this wouldn't be maybe such a bad thing as it could encourage more migrants to cross the irish border into the republic, meaning there would be no longer the uk's problem as ever. let me

know your thoughts, mel mogg @gbnews .com and join now by kate hoey, baroness hoey, kate hoey, good to see you in the studio here. i'm sorry jacob can't be here. do you believe though, that this deal, this this announcement here by the judge could actually strengthen the sea border between great britain and northern ireland? >> i think the judgement today is really significant for the future of the united kingdom. we have a trade border already, which has been put in, and that was meant to be the end of it all. i mean, we all opposed it andifs all. i mean, we all opposed it and it's dividing, without doubt, the united kingdom. but this now is introducing basically a people border. so how do we know that they're not going to suddenly decide , well, going to suddenly decide, well, the only way we're going to stop people leaving to come to northern ireland is to be introducing, producing your passport, producing something to prove that you're allowed to do. and i just think it's it is, as i've said over and over again, and i've raised this in the house of lords, and jacob raised

it, and the dup raised it, jim allister raised it. and we were told we were literally lied to. i mean, some of the points that that were made were this cannot happen. it's on the face of the bill. northern ireland is part of the united kingdom. we will have one united kingdom immigration law. and now we've seen it. and of course, the government will appeal this. and i presume it will go to the supreme court. but i would be very surprised if the supreme court take a different view, because everyone who understood it and read about article two of the protocol knew that this could not apply. just like the legacy bill, so that sea border could strengthen. >> we could see passport checks to stop people without passports illegally arrive, migrants from going into northern ireland. >> i would have thought any government, whether it's this government, whether it's this government or the next government, which is likely to be a labour government, would have to be very, very careful about the effects on the belfast good friday agreement of actually saying to people living in northern ireland, part of the united kingdom , that they are united kingdom, that they are going to have to show something

that proves they are who they are. when we're living in one country. i mean, we have what other government in the world, what other country in the world would have divided their country at the behest of a foreign power , the european union? i mean, it is absolutely outrageous. and every week something new happens that shows just how much we were lied to and how much those people, particularly recently, the framework thing that came out, which was about trying to get the dup back into stormont and unfortunately , vie jeffrey and unfortunately, vie jeffrey donaldson, who is no longer there, of course , agreed with there, of course, agreed with it, said, this is wonderful. we've got everything solved. complete nonsense. and people understand this and any introduction of anything that divides even more people from northern ireland, from the rest of the united kingdom . our of the united kingdom. our country, i'm afraid, will be met with very much stronger views and anger than there have been. what would you have done? >> you can't have a hard border on the island of ireland , or can on the island of ireland, or can you? but hang on. >> the republic of ireland just a few weeks ago were suggesting,

because the northern ireland, they said, that all these 80, 80% of all their illegal immigrants were coming from northern ireland, which i actually don't accept because they were worried about being sent to rwanda. we're saying you know, we'll have to have checks. so, you know, if you can have checks for people crossing the frontier, which is obviously that's their decision. it's a foreign country. it's not it's not part of the united kingdom. and yet they want to put checks on a tiny amount of trade that goes into the eu via northern ireland. absolutely scandalous. and tomorrow in the house of lords, we're going to have the third reading of the animal exports, banning animal exports. again, not applying to northern ireland because we've been left under european union law. and i think all those people who voted to leave the european union, including those in northern ireland, yes, admittedly not a majority need to realise that they haven't actually left the european union in northern ireland. >> this judge's ruling gets dubun >> this judge's ruling gets dublin off the hook, doesn't it? because it means that there'll be no need to go south of the border. if you're in northern

ireland, you can't be sent to rwanda. >> absolutely. it's almost as if the foreign office has once again done a little deal with the irish government. i mean, i'm not that's a slightly, slightly cynical, slightly cynical approach and probably not true. but, you know, there is this feeling all the time that our own government, our british government actually doesn't stand up for the union. i mean, what is their job if the first job is not to actually support the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland? >> was boris johnson right, all along with that original protocol protocol agreement in the house of lords? >> well, i think have to be honest with you. i genuinely feel that if boris johnson had stayed, he knew and he told me himself he knew what they were doing was to get brexit done . doing was to get brexit done. and i actually believe he would not have entered into these further agreements that have just made things so much worse . just made things so much worse. >> so what's the answer to the small boats crisis? i mean, you called before, haven't you, for northern royal navy to be deployed in the channel >> yeah. i mean, ijust deployed in the channel >> yeah. i mean, i just think that that no other country would allow this, these thousands of people that are coming in

illegally to happen. and there must be particularly the law of the sea. there is a rule which they should be being taken back. and we're paying france millions of pounds, but we can't do it. >> there's no returns deal. post brexit. we can't take people back to france. >> but we should. if what are we giving france the money for? i mean, that's really what should have happened. but ultimately we, you know, we can't go on like the way this is happening. and northern ireland is certainly not good. northern ireland is not going to be a magnet for people to come over. and i as i said, i just would and i as i said, ijust would warn any government to who's thinking of putting in checks on people they are entering into a very dangerous territory. it could inflame tensions very much. so >> well, kate hoey, baroness hoey, thank you for joining >> well, kate hoey, baroness hoey, thank you forjoining us hoey, thank you for joining us tonight on state of the nation. great to see you here. with me now is a friend of the program, human rights lawyer ivan sampson . ivan, good evening. good to see you. who is sovereign in northern ireland, the uk or the eu ? eu? >> well, we have obligations

under international treaties . under international treaties. and you may. it's not a question of whose sovereign, but our domestic laws must comply with those obligations. the reason that we haven't been able to send anyone to rwanda is because of the european convention on human rights. so it tells you sovereign , that european sovereign, that european convention trumped the plans of the government through the rule 39 interim measures, now, i agree with baroness hoey because she said the supreme court won't see a different view than the high court in northern ireland, and there's no other way they can read it, because the good friday agreement protected fundamental human rights in, in, in entrenched in the european convention, human rights and protected with the right to scrutiny by the strasbourg courts. now the rwanda act disapplied all of that. so i'd like i'd be interested to see what the supreme court in the uk , how are they going to view it?

because their scrutiny has been eroded by the safety of rwanda act, as well . act, as well. >> is that where it's all heading? you think some a big a big battle in the supreme court later this summer? ivan >> i think so. and it'll be interesting how the courts deal with this, because they are essentially i mean , justice is essentially i mean, justice is blind, but what the government has done is blinded justice, and what they've done is blinded. those supreme court and say, look, we know what you said in december that this policy is unlawful, but we say it's lawful . we want you to do what parliament says despite the fact all the evidence points to the opposite direction on this issue. >> ivan, if you have, some, some clients who are illegally arrived migrants, would you be saying to them, get on the first boat to northern ireland right now? >> well, this is it. because they can. in fact, now there are no passport checks between the united kingdom and northern ireland. and it'll be interesting to see how the

government deals with this. and can you imagine passport checks within the united kingdom? there's going to be uproar , there's going to be uproar, chris. i think there's going to be an uproar in this country if that ever happens. >> okay. how are you still in the studio with me? and she's muttering under her breath at the very thought. and that's what many would say is that it's dividing the uk, not uniting it post—brexit hit indeed. >> and we've got like two, two sets of laws within the united kingdom and it's quite it's a it's a very ill thought , act the it's a very ill thought, act the safety rwanda act. it's political motivated. i don't like making political comments. that's your job, but it's really, really ill thought, chris, did you did you blame them? >> do you blame the safety of rwanda act, or do you blame the poorly drafted to use kate hoey's language wins a framework i >> -- >> well, look, the windsor framework, we can't roll that back. that's the thing. we can't roll that back. that is our obugafion roll that back. that is our obligation treaty. we have to comply with it . and it's a very

comply with it. and it's a very dangerous for the good friday agreement. and i would say peace in northern ireland if we're going to erode the windsor framework, i think it's very, very dangerous times. >> is that right, though, because we saw, didn't we, how the irish government threatened to put people on the border of northern ireland, southern ireland, and no one said then it's going to going to erode peace in northern ireland. >> no, but this is we're talking about fundamental human rights, chris. and you know, only dictators erode the right to scrutiny of the courts, and i'm afraid this government is behaving like a dictatorship . behaving like a dictatorship. >> but there's a feeling, isn't it, that the courts aren't really doing what governments want. the governments are elected democratically . courts aren't. >> no, but this is the separation of power. this is our unwritten constitution works that no government can enact an act. and this government has that erodes fundamental human

rights. and i would i would be absolutely chaining myself to parliament if that ever happens. if this actually they sent someone to rwanda because it will not happen . not a single will not happen. not a single person is going to be sent to rwanda . rwanda. >> okay, well, you heard it here first. listen, either samson, thank you for joining first. listen, either samson, thank you forjoining us tonight. >> and of course, baroness hoey. now coming up, could former gb news presenter and now government minister esther mcvey stamp out so—called wokery ? yes. stamp out so—called wokery? yes. wokery in the

welcome back to the state of the nafion welcome back to the state of the nation with me. christopher hope gb news, political editor. sitting in here for sirjacob sitting in here for sir jacob rees—mogg. we've been discussing the rwanda plan, and you've been getting in touch. susan says let's do a deal with southern ireland. we send the migrants to northern ireland, then they go

to southern ireland, then they send them to the eu. spain says it needs 25 million working age people. alan says we must in capitals, close this open door agreement now in capitals. my concern is more about how many illegal migrants entering our mainland from southern ireland and gerry hayes. mainland from southern ireland and gerry hayes . who is he? he's and gerry hayes. who is he? he's and gerry hayes. who is he? he's a joke. >> this is a joke. >> this is a joke. >> i'll leave. i'll leave gerry's comment until he speaks in a minute. now moving on. last week, it was revealed that the house of commons and lords diversity roles were paying as much as £70,000 a year. but which would put you? we should put you in the top 10% of earners in the uk. however, esther mcvey , the common sense esther mcvey, the common sense minister and former gb news presenter, has promised to scrap all so—called woke whitehall jobs. so could this finally put the matter to rest ? i'm joined the matter to rest? i'm joined now by, as you heard before, my panel barrister and former tory mp jerry hayes and the author

and broadcaster amy nicole turner. gerry to you first, given you want to get involved so quickly in our programme , so quickly in our programme, what's wrong with rainbow lanyards? >> what rainbow is rainbow lanyards? absolutely nothing. what is wrong when you pay someone £150,000 to deal with completely daft things , the completely daft things, the number of people, the quotas you've got, let's have people there with their jobs for experience. but quotas, quality quotas, work with the labour party, all the all women shortlist has produced some of the people . yes, but look at the the people. yes, but look at the people. you've got women. the quality. it's an insult to women. it's an insult to black people. it's an insult to every ethnic minority. they've got to be shown that they've got their for their real, real talent , for their real, real talent, nothing else. >> but how can they do that? how can a meritocracy exist unless you level out the playing field first? >> the equality of no, the opportunity to be equal, but that's exactly what these schemes are about.

>> that's exactly what danny is about. and i think it gets this characterisation that it's about right. on unconscious bias trainings, when really it's about working class people, it's about working class people, it's about disabled people, it's about disabled people, it's about parents, it's about getting everyone into the workforce so that they can be judged by their talents ahead of everything else. >> nothing. nothing wrong with that, amy. >> i think i think a real common sense approach would be to admit that there is disadvantage and there is disproportionate numbers of people in certain roles, and maybe addressing that rather than sending out a signal that, yeah, but this is esther mcvey, isn't it really. >> yes. we love her in a in a weird sort of odd way. what are you saying , elected mp well of you saying, elected mp well of course she's like, well we don't have to love elected mps . why do have to love elected mps. why do some of them do jobs, june? well, of course i say give it to the minister for common sense, gerry hayes, the minister for common sense, the that's that's a very sensible sensible was using £39,000 of taxpayers money to privately rent out her westminster home. well, that's got nothing to do with equality

at all. >> i think we maybe should concentrate. >> mr lawyer will be ringing his ear. >> amy, the we're arguing here about employment practice in whitehall, not about how expensive and shorts all within the rules . the rules. >> the point about wokery gerry hayes is, as my children tell me , being woke is being kind and what the whitehall's trying to do here is allow people with less advantage, a chance to get on. >> you know, i don't disagree with any of that, but he's become an industry now. i'm on the left of the conservative party, if that exists anymore, i suppose. but listen to kemi badenoch. she's absolutely a sensible person. she's saying, look, don't let's go mad over this . yeah, we believe in this. yeah, we believe in equality. of course we do. but don't let's go completely insane. it's not over the top being . being. >> it's not kindness. it's not well, it's kindness, but it's also practical. that's why this is so used within the private sector. because it increases efficiency. it it increases productivity. because if you understand your entire customer

base, you can make better decisions for to increase productivity of the business for the job dni scheme has been proven to increase profitability. it is a moral imperative , yes, but it's also imperative, yes, but it's also a practical imperative. it works across the board, but unfortunately it's been hijacked. and now it's popular to be like, oh , dni is all about to be like, oh, dni is all about wokery when it's not about increasing efficiency. what do we have stagnant growth in this country? no, we haven't actually the daily mail. >> and that's an organ of great truth , said the other day. we truth, said the other day. we are gangbusters. really. well 1.6. well, that's all right. >> is something to be desired. and schemes like this address that. >> no, they don't . >> no, they don't. >> no, they don't. >> well we'll we'll agree to differ on this one. now the bbc is planning to introduce adverts on its podcast on third party platforms like spotify , a move platforms like spotify, a move that has led some to complain that has led some to complain that they do not expect to pay for content already financed by the licence fee . gary lineker's the licence fee. gary lineker's podcast company has written to lucy frazer, the culture secretary, to warn of a disastrous consequence for the podcast industry if his employer

goes ahead with the plan. but does the bbc have an unfair advantage given its licence fee funding , and will listeners funding, and will listeners accept adverts on bbc programmes, even on third party platforms like spotify ? back to platforms like spotify? back to my panel, amy. should the bbc be advertising ? not in my panel, amy. should the bbc be advertising? not in this my panel, amy. should the bbc be advertising ? not in this way. advertising? not in this way. >> not to uk consumers, not to a licence fee payer. however, bbc studios, when they sell their programming internationally, i think it's fair enough because why should the licence payer pick up the tab for that? so that's where with the bbc studios you can have that commercial side and maybe use some advertising or other ways to increase revenue of aside from the licence fee, but not to licence fee payers who have already paid enough. >> jerry hayes, you're a free market capitalist. why can't the bbc advertise? >> what do you mean i'm a free market? i'm guessing you're a tory mp. >> formally. >> formally. >> formally, yeah, but when he was a puppet party, not a little mad. people like liz truss and kwasi kwarteng who crashed the economy. bbc adverts podcast.

jerry, i don't really care and the reason i don't really care because the licence fee comes up and is it 27? something like that, but how many people watch the bbc nowadays? how many people under the age of. well, no, no, no, people under the age of 35 look at their news in a very different way . they listen very different way. they listen to podcasts, i can't remember the last time i saw bbc news not watching eurovision. >> no, no. >> no, no. >> isn't the .0. 7 million? we can't debate the entire bbc. we can't debate the entire bbc. we can't debate the entire bbc. we can't debate it. we got two minutes. we can't debate the entire bbc. but the point here is the bbc is moving to space, where it's hard to make money even if you're a privately owned podcast company. like like the millionaire, gary lineker. is that the point that the bbc is, is getting its tentacles in space station vie? >> no , i don't think so because >> no, i don't think so because they're in deficit right ? they they're in deficit right? they need to make up this £700 million somehow. and it's not uncommon, as i've said, to use a commercial element alongside the licence fee. what i'm saying is don't jump international. yes, exactly. and would you have a

problem with them doing a little advertising in that airport? >> no, i don't, but we get we obsess of these things because so many it's not a new idea for the tories think the bbc are wicked and they shouldn't be taking out licence fee. yeah but the fact of the matter is the whole model of actually platforms will be changed by 2027. the licence fee will go. >> what will it become? a subscription service like netflix, i don't know. i think they'll hive off news and their hive off public. i don't know what they've got, hbos. they've got that sort of thing . got that sort of thing. >> does that not worry you that you would have a commercially driven. we need to have that sort of impact? >> well, that's why you hide the important things off. like sky news. i think sky news is brilliant, actually. superb. >> there are other channels available to jerry like apart from gb news, of course. >> you know obviously the. yeah, okay. i think we'd lose a lot of good stuff that isn't necessarily massively popular, but it's an important part of our culture. >> like some of the music stuff, some of the art stuff just wouldn't get made if it was

commercially driven. channel. >> yeah , we've got to be careful. >> we've got to be. it's hard. it's hard making money in a commercial space that the bbc are taking a guaranteed income from the licence fee payer, and then trying to encroach increasingly on podcasting . increasingly on podcasting. >> yeah, but they do other things, you know, selling their licensing for their products , licensing for their products, their toys, the doctor who stuff. toys. yeah. things like the action figures, the merch merch. >> okay, this is on merch. thank you both to my panel. now next labour has said the uk should halt arms sales to iran. israel on this in the wake of its arafa offensive. but are they right now the duke and duchess of sussex? harry and meghan have concluded a tour of nigeria. but why did it take so long, so hard? and why did it look like an official royal visit

? welcome 7 welcome back to state of the nation. i'm christopher hope, gb

news, political editor. sitting in for sir jacob rees—mogg, the usual presenter of this programme. we've been discussing the woke civil service and bbc podcast adverts, and you've been getting in touch. russ says we should leave the echr no doubt . should leave the echr no doubt. well, russ rishi sunak went towards that in his speech today at policy exchange. we'll see if he means it. and john says that jerry's showing off his woke side today. jerry shame. john thought you were stronger than that. >> stronger than wapping. so i was having a go at amy nix. >> its aim is, hey, it's amy. nick's fault . well, we'll move nick's fault. well, we'll move on from that, shall we? both of you. now, listen, david lammy has urged the uk government to halt arms sales to israel . halt arms sales to israel. however, lord cameron, david cameron of chipping norton , the cameron of chipping norton, the foreign secretary, has warned against such a move and claimed it would embolden hamas. well, i'm joined now by the former labour spokesman, james matthewson james. welcome to state of the nation. great to have you on. >> hi, chris. thanks, james.

>> hi, chris. thanks, james. >> don't you worry, though , that >> don't you worry, though, that if you weaken israel, you've got less chance of getting these hostages back from hamas. that was the reason why this conflict started on october the 7th. >> only important people to listen to when it comes to the hostages are the families of the hostages are the families of the hostages . and at the moment, hostages. and at the moment, those families of those hostages are feeling. let's put it mildly, woefully underrepresented. and not listened to by the israeli government. benjamin netanyahu seems to be, i mean, he just seems to be, i mean, he just seems to be out of control as far as it goes, to the point where when i was seeing america have an america of all allies having to say that they're halting their shipments , and halting their shipments, and that's something that i mean, even weeks ago, i don't think we were considering they would where they would say they're in. it seems like they have no control over over israel, over benjamin netanyahu anymore. and i think it makes sense for the labour party to say , if we want labour party to say, if we want to be a prospective government and if we want to move into that, you know, that position that, you know, that position that we should align with allies like america at the very least.

but of course, the people on the left of the labour party and various other left wing circles are not happy with how quickly this has happened and why it's happened. >> isn't this a classic thing that labour labour can do in opposition but won't do in government? it's very easy. words are cheap in opposition. you can say that this kind of thing, but in government you can't because it would weaken that support for israel and defending itself. and also it's quite performative. number a small amount of money in arms sales is traded between uk and israel. >> you're absolutely right i think. and that's the risk. and that's the risk that it is performative and it needs to be more representative, because i would hope to see from the labour party a moral conscience, because we haven't seen that from the government at the moment. we haven't seen that from the tories on this. we want to see a moral conscience and this is not this is no longer a left or right wing issue. there are people united across this country by what they see as, at the very least, inappropriate actions from israel and at the worst, absolutely despicable actions from israel . and of actions from israel. and of course, hamas, who are a terrorist organisation and

proscribed so as rightly so, have committed horrific and heinous acts of murder. but that does not give israel the right to, to copy and to follow suit in that regard. it's a nation state. it has to be better than that. >> but wouldn't it? wouldn't israel just shrug its shoulders because the big money is from the usa? i mean, it is such a small amount of money. it would be symbolic, but but little else. >> yeah, but i think it still matters. symbolism still matters. symbolism still matters. and i think it does when it comes to it. you have to stand up and say, this is what we believe in, and not just look like you're following america because there's, you know, after, remember, the labour party, there's a lot of sensitivity about people following america, and rightly so when it comes to foreign policy. so they need to be very careful. i want to see moral leadership from the labour party on this. i want to see them saying israel has committed a heinous act in its campaign there in gaza. and it's not right. and when it comes to things like british civilians being killed by the idf, they need to be able to stand up, you

know, say, we're going to be a moral voice for the british people because, james, do you expect , do you expect more of expect, do you expect more of that if labour form the next government? >> we saw that with robin cook's, ethical foreign policy dating, i think, 97 to 98, and it fell apart. do you think you might see that under a labour government? >> my hope, as we've always got to be optimistic. >> right. that's that's part of being part of the labour party. you've got to try and be optimistic. but i think at the end of the day, when we see the kind of voices that are committing on this and, and commenting on this from the labour backbenchers who are respected by the current leadership of the party, it does give me faith that there will be some, moral compass that that holds them true because like you say, labour at the moment are very excited. they're they're rushing towards this position where they're potentially going to form a government, potentially form a majority government. and there's all sorts of things to deal with before that happens. this is one of those issues that could, if they're not careful, define the early days of a labour

government. and that would be disastrous . disastrous. >> well, listen, james matthewson great remarks . it's matthewson great remarks. it's fascinating to thank you for joining us on state of the nation. now, the duke and duchess of sussex, harry and meghan have finished their last day of a tour in nigeria , where day of a tour in nigeria, where miss markle yesterday dubbed the nafion miss markle yesterday dubbed the nation my country . some have nation my country. some have pointed out that with all the outfits and the handshakes showing the power of truth, the tour as if it were an official royal visit for a couple that left the royal family duties purportedly for more privacy in california. why are they conducting their holidays in such a manner? still with me in the studio here is my panel barrister and former tory mp jerry hayes and the author and broadcaster amy nicholl turner. amy is right that , isn't it? i amy is right that, isn't it? i mean, what's the point here? they are basically being a royal couple without the actual royal bits. >> they are the royal couple, like by birth. he is a royal. he came out of the royal womb. yeah. the royal womb. he doesn't

get womb doesn't get more royal than that. thank you for filling that in. they're getting lost, and if only this was a royal tour because it was an actual success. and if you can contrast it to kate and william's tour of the caribbean, was it last year, year before absolute disaster, pr disaster ? it was a royal pr disaster? it was a royal family own goal. horrendous. this has actually been a roaring success, so i bet the royal family would love to take a slew i >> -- >> who says 5mm >> who says if nothing has gone wrong? >> jerry , what amy means. >> jerry, what amy means. >> jerry, what amy means. >> well, that's a good thing, isn't it, but i mean, you know, if she was made of ice cream, she'd eat herself. i mean, that's, you know, the problem there , piers morgan was probably there, piers morgan was probably right. i think poor old harry is a very damaged young man. any young man who had to follow the coffin of his mother when you were 11 years old is going to be damaged. and we, you know, he's he's broken away from his dad andifs he's broken away from his dad and it's a family tragedy . and it's a family tragedy. >> but are they behaving like a

royal couple in nigeria? is the point. and if so, why should what they want? >> well , why should do you know, >> well, why should do you know, i really don't care. i really , i really don't care. i really, really don't care. i want prince charles. i want the not prince charles. i want the not prince charles the king to get well. i want , kate to get well. and want, kate to get well. and i want, kate to get well. and i want them to be a happy family. i'd love them to be reunited . i'd love them to be reunited. >> but they weren't, were they? they lost the visit last week. harry didn't go and see the king. >> no, no, but it's hard to see which side of the family is pushing the distance more. i don't know, we don't know. we don't know, we don't know. we don't really. we don't. we haven't got a clue. >> it's cuttings journalism. >> it's cuttings journalism. >> was it that prince william's now been made the some massive role in the army? >> colonel and chief and jackal, the which prince harry served. >> so you think that would be a natural fit to offer prince harry? so could it be that it's coming more from well, why should king side? >> why should they give him a role when he's been slagging off his family in a book? in the most appalling way? >> i just don't i haven't seen it as well. >> you haven't read the book.

>> you haven't read the book. >> i've just always seen it as him telling his story. he's betrayed confidences, hasn't he? >> i mean, if he if he was, if he was your relation, your family and came to see you and then went on tv a few weeks days later, weeks later, even in a book and wrote what was said in a private family situation. that's quite disloyal. >> yeah, but i think that some of the things that he's said, particularly about his mental health, have helped so many people and been so honest. invictus that's something that meghan's really good at, too. i think people get annoyed because she's just so good at playing this role. like even down to the fact on this, on this tour that isn't a tour she wore nigerian and designers only. oh god, that's such a nice touch. she's good at this stuff. it's royal. >> it's a royal touch. >> it's a royal touch. >> amy's right. they had the world at their. >> so why? why are they being like royals when they're not royals? why are they trying to behave like the royal family when they aren't royal? the royals? >> they are royal. well, she's not, but he is. >> no, but they're outside the family now. why are they trying to pretend they are?

>> abandon their titles because they want to be talked about. look, i want reconciliation. i want them brought back into the family. but they've got to do something to show that they love the king and they love he loves his brother . his brother. >> well, listen, jerry hayes name nick ltn. thank you again for joining us today in the studio here. now coming up, the government has announced that it will stop funding the global disinformation index, a press ratings body that's been accused of censoring journalism. but why was public money paying for it in the first place? i'll be speaking to the man behind the story, freddie sayers, editor in chief of the unherd website . chief of the unherd website. plus, you'll be hearing what's coming up on patrick christys show tonight

welcome back to state of the nafion welcome back to state of the nation . i'm christopher hope gb nation. i'm christopher hope gb news, political editor, sitting in for sir jacob

news, political editor, sitting in for sirjacob rees—mogg. in for sir jacob rees—mogg. we've been discussing the israel crisis with hamas and the sussexes. and you've been getting in touch. tony says that the bbc ran a number of commercial channels which carry adverts . yeah, tony's right, but adverts. yeah, tony's right, but the question is, should those adverts continue on to podcasts? alan says simply bring meghan and harry home. i think he means the duke and duchess of sussex there, alan, but thank you for that. and steve says why does anybody care about these two? well, steve, many would agree with you. now, last month the unherd website revealed how an organisation partly funded by the uk government is censoring journalism. unherd says it receives between 2 and 6% of the advertising revenue expected for an online magazine of its size because of claims of the actions of an organisation called the global disinformation index, or the gdi. now the gdi is supposed to restrict the advertising revenue of outlets, spreading disinformation , but it seemingly disinformation, but it seemingly disapply defines disinformation

as ideas we disagree with. now we know all about that @gbnews now. last week, in response to the unherd revelations, the uk government said it would no longer fund the gdi and we've approached the global disinformation desks for comment from gb news tonight here with us now in a studio, is editor in chief of unherd. freddie sayers. freddie, why do you think this body can exist and how damaging is it to unherd ? is it to unherd? >> well, we only started taking adverts very recently , so we adverts very recently, so we didn't even know what to expect and we went to three successive ad agencies and they were all very excited . we have very high very excited. we have very high quality comment and analysis. we do interviews with global figures. they all we have a very large audience. they thought great and they gave estimates of what we would expect to receive and in each case, we got between 2 and 6% of what was expected, 100% of what they were predicting. and in each case, even the ad agencies themselves couldn't understand what was going on. eventually with the third one, we did a bit more

digging and we managed to go up this quite complicated food chain that exists in the world of online ad networks, and found that this mysterious organisation, called the global disinformation index , which i disinformation index, which i had certainly never heard of, and i suspect your viewers haven't either, is sitting there basically giving marks to news and media websites and deciding whether or not they are pushing disinformation. now for whatever reason, we had appeared on one of their blacklists, and this had caused this major issue for us. we eventually got an answer and because and the answer came from the gdi, that we had been put on this list, not for any factual errors because we do factual errors because we do fact check complaints. me no, we do fact checking very well. not for anything that you might normally consider disinformation, but because we pubush disinformation, but because we publish certain columnists, including kathleen stock, who is a very prestigious philosophy professor who has gender critical beliefs, that is to say, she thinks biological

differences between men and women are real and important . women are real and important. and she states that in articles and because of the weird , and because of the weird, complex way that the gdi had redefined disinformation, they managed to categorise that as disinformation . and they told us disinformation. and they told us this very explicitly. her and two other columnists, as what caused our listing and they stuck to it. so even though we complained, we appealed . no complained, we appealed. no response. we are still on that list and it's still having that effect. >> so diffuser don't know about unherd. it's basically it's a free thinking website, isn't it? it takes on issues which you wouldn't read in newspapers. is that right? or on the bbc maybe? >> well, it's a free thinking, independent thinking online magazine. so it's mainly comment and analysis, but it's also video interviews, news items and yeah, it's thought issues like maybe unherd . so it's the idea maybe unherd. so it's the idea is away from the herd independent. we're not following everyone else, but we're very responsible. you know, it's not one of these sort of crackpot

online, outfits that are saying all sorts of crazy things . it's all sorts of crazy things. it's a, you know, we, we publish thoughtful, interesting pieces every day. and so that's why we just couldn't understand it. and now that we've found it out, we've started to discover more things about this mysterious entity. one of which is that it has actually been receiving money from the government. so it's not even a private entity. it's had money from the british government, the american government, the european union and the german foreign ministry. >> how much? freddy, i think it's 2.6 million from the british government over how long? >> that was over a three year period, i believe that, i'm happy to say, is now ceased for now. and david cameron, the foreign secretary, wrote to kemi badenoch , who had inquired about badenoch, who had inquired about it and confirmed that there are quote unquote, no plans to fund that organisation in the future. he even underlined no plans, which i think in foreign sort of diplomatic speak, means they're not going to get any more money from the british government, but they're still there. we're still on this blacklist, and it's

quite a scary situation. >> while you're there , freddy, >> while you're there, freddy, you're while unherd is there, you're while unherd is there, you have the same problem in attracting you'll lose 90% of your revenues that you. >> well, luckily we have many paying >> well, luckily we have many paying subscribers and our primary business is subscription and other things , so it's not a and other things, so it's not a matter of life or death for our organisation , but for smaller organisation, but for smaller publications or publications that rely on advertising, they could be on these kind of blacklists and not even know about it. and i think it's the it's the hidden nature of it that people really mind that these, these kind of things aren't publicised , their aren't publicised, their findings aren't made public, and there's no transparency. there's no mechanism to complain. there was some form on a website somewhere which we filled in twice and never heard back. and i think at a time where people are so paranoid anyway, and there's a real sense of loss of trust in government, in the media for the government to be funding these kind of things that go around not not actually censoring directly, but

effectively censoring because they turn off the business model of certain news publications. most people will find that pretty sinister . pretty sinister. >> who else, apart from unherd on that list? on the list? >> well, we don't know because they don't publish it. and back in 2018, when they were originally founded, they said that transparency was one of their big pillars, and they were going to publish all of their findings that doesn't happen anymore. they also said originally that there definition of disinformation was false. information deliberately spread, which you can kind of understand. it's a reasonable definition in the intervening years, they've redefined disinformation. they now use something called adverse narratives, which means that even if even if an article has entirely factually correct information, it could still, according to the gdi, be disinformation. if it is pushing what they consider to be an adverse narrative against a protected group, an individual, or what they call the science. so you get this really quite frightening situation that any

article, any journalism that is outside the mainstream , could outside the mainstream, could potentially be effectively censored by having its business model turned off and, you know, the recent experiences over covid and other times show how important it is to have dissenting voices and allow them to happen. >> just quickly, the uk government has stopped funding it, but germany and the us carried on. well. >> we noticed actually today that there was a little update to the disinformation index website. uk government and the us government have been removed. yeah, germany, eu still very sad. >> thank you forjoining us >> thank you for joining us today from unherd with that surprising and alarming development there in free speech. thank you. and that's all from me ben leo is stepping in for patrick tonight. ben, what's on the bill of fare this evening? >> hello, chopper. great show. look, i've got a big bbc waste exclusive. they've squandered £42 million. on what? i'll leave you to guess and reveal. all at the top of the hour. elsewhere should just stop oil. those menaces be classed as a terrorist organisation. kelvin mackenzie here as well. tune in. in just a few minutes.

>> splendid, ben. that's all coming up after the weather. jacob will be back and votes permitting tomorrow night at 8 pm. i'm christopher. hope this has been state of the nation with me on gb news. thanks for joining us. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar, sponsors of weather on . solar, sponsors of weather on. gb news. >> hi there, time for a look at the weather with the met office for gb news cloud and rain moves east very slowly over the next 24 hours. showers follow the main band of rain that we've seen across western parts during the day , and it's going to turn the day, and it's going to turn cooler across the country as we lose the warm sunshine that we've seen so much of during the last few days. we do keep some clear spells in the east on monday night, but otherwise there is this cloud and rain progressing its way very slowly eastwards, followed by showers into the southwest , interspersed into the southwest, interspersed by clear spells where we do get

some clear spells in the west. temperatures will dip into the single figures, but otherwise it's 1215 celsius. first thing tuesday and a damp, dreary start for central and southern scotland, northern and eastern england that rain really persists throughout much of the day. it does become more fragmented into the afternoon, so on and off rain and nothing particularly heavy but a marked contrast compared with recent days, with temperatures back to 16 to 18 celsius. a little bit cooler than that, where we've got the persistent rain and where we've got the low cloud hugging the coast further west, we keep some clear spells on tuesday and into wednesday clear spells, some sunshine in between , any showers. but those showers will be quite lively across southwest england in particular, a few rumbles of thunder around driest and brightest for northeast scotland. but otherwise we've got the cloud and some damp weather to contend with in the east. thursday and friday. further sunny spells and showers, temperatures not far from average . from average. >> looks like things are heating up boxt boiler as sponsors of weather on

it's 9 pm. this is patrick christys . tonight with me. christys. tonight with me. >> ben leo to pay tribute to jeremy corbyn, who's a friend, as well as a colleague . as well as a colleague. >> will the real keir starmer please stand up? rishi sunak? today, sound of the alarm on the labour leader. i believe that we will keep this country safe. >> and keir starmer's actions demonstrate that he won't be able to do that. >> so is britain safer with the tories? >> and october 7th happened and, you know, the hamas thing. but the zero, dear gobby gary lineker strikes again. >> i have a major gb news exclusive on the bbc licence fee. next plus . should just stop fee. next plus. should just stop oil and troublemakers like them be banned alongside terror groups. also tonight