>> announcer: "this week" with george stephanopoulos starts right now. threat of indictment. >> it just feels like a politically charged prosecution. >> donald trump claims he's about to be arrested by the manhattan d.a., and he is calling for protests. >> so if this occurs on tuesday, they need to do so peacefully.

>> mike pence blasts the investigation, but also offers his most pointed criticism yet of his former boss. >> we've gone our separate ways. the country just wants a fresh start. >> this mo esi intervhhe former vice president. >> i'm not asking about the record. i'm asking about the man. >> plus, analysis from our powerhouse round table. banking crisis. >> americans can have confidence that the banking system is safe. >> silicon valley bank's collapse rocks wall street. >> weaker regulation. congress needs to close that door. >> why did we not anticipate this and see this coming? >> all the fallout this mornin with senator elizabeth warren. and -- >> how long do you think it will take to fully understand the scope of pandemic fraud? >> we're talking years. >> after congress pumped out trillions of dollars in pandemic aid, rachel scott follows the money in her series, "through

the cracks". good morning, and welcome to "this week." as we come on the air this morning, local and federal law enforcement are on alert as donald trump is, again, calling himself a victim and calling on his supporters to protest. trump claims he is going to be arrested on tuesday under indictment by manhattan district attorney alvin bragg. he hasn't said why he thinks this will happen, and his own spokesman has said they have received no notification about it from the manhattan d.a. we have asked the d.a.'s office if an indictment is indeed coming, and as of this morning he has not answered that question. district attorney bragg did however send a notice to employees of the d.a.'s office saying, quote, we do not tolerate attempts to intimidate our office or threaten the rule of law in new york. the interest for strategic dialogue which monitors the

underlying activity of extremist groups tells us trump's words have triggered calls for violence, even civil war. i just returned overnight from iowa where trump's statements and the possible actions of the manhat manhattan d.a. are very much on the minds of voters i spoke to, and the man i interviewed, former vice president mike pence. as you will see, pence made some of his sharpest criticism yet of trump in our interview. he told me it is time for republicans to turn the page on the trump era. he declined to say whether he would ever support trump again for president, even if he is the republican nominee, but as you will see, pence also had pointed words about the manhattan d.a., and that's where our interview begins. >> as i'm sure you've seen, donald trump is saying that he's going to be indicted on tuesday. he's calling for people to protest. now we -- we don't know if that's true. the manhattan d.a. has not said

anything about it, but he's calling for people to protest. is that irresponsible? >> well, first, let me say i'm taken aback at the idea of indicting a former president of the united states at a time when there's a crime wave in new york city that, in fact, that the manhattan d.a. thinks that indicting president trump is his top priority. i think it just tells you everything you need to know about the radical left in this country. it just feels like a politically charged prosecution here, and i -- for my part, i just like it's just not what the american people want to see. we've got real challenges in this country today, jon, with inflation, and the crisis at our border. the american people are anxious about our future and here we go again, back into another politically charged prosecution directed at the former president

of the united states, and i would just hope for better. >> but he's calling on people to protest, to come out and protest, take our nation back. we know what happened the last time he said that. >> well, jon, the american people have a constitutional right to peacefully assemble. >> absolutely, but to have a former president calling on people to protest a justice proc proceeding? >> the frustration the american people feel about what they sense is a two-tiered justice system in this country, i think is well-founded, but -- and i believe that people understand that if they give voice to this -- if this occurs on tuesday, that they need to do so peacefully and in a lawful manner. that the violence that occurred on january 6th, the violence that occurred in cities throughout this country in the summer of 2020 was a disgrace. the american people won't tolerate it, and those that

engage in that kind of violence should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. >> but you say he's a former president possibly about to be indicted and it's unprecedented. aren't his actions unprecedented? i never saw a presidential candidate give $130,000 to a porn star to keep her from ta talking. i mean, these are unprecedented actions. >> well, jon, as you know, those transpired even before i joined the national ticket. i can't speak to the merits of the case. >> the payoff happened just two weeks before the election. > i can't speak to the merits of the case. >> yeah. >> and in america, you're innocent until proven guilty. that's not always true in the national media, but it is true in our justice system, and -- and look. i know that president trump can take care of himself, and this process will play out if, in fact, an indictment comes down. >> i want to ask you about your recent remarks about donald

trump and january 6th. you said that history will hold donald trump accountable. how? >> well, we all face the judgment of history, and i believe in the fullness of time that history will hold donald trump accountable for the events of january 6th as it will other people that were involved. >> in what ways? what will history say about his actions? >> well, it will be the judgment of history. i truly believe it, and i also think the american people will also have their say. i mean, the president is now a candidate for office again. he's running for election, but as i go around the countriy, i' convinced the american people have learned the lessons of that day. they've internalized what they have learned over the last two years, including in much of your good work on this topic. they know what happened. they know the fact that the

president's reckless words endangered people at the capitol that day, including me and my family, and i believe they'll factor all of that in as they make decisions going forward in this country. they'll make their own judgment about what happened on january 6th. they'll make their own judgment about this administration and its failures at home and abroad, and i think ultimately history -- history will hold donald trump accountable for that day. >> trump actually said in response to what you have said recently about january 6th that it have your fault. >> mm-hmm. >> that if you had done what he was asking you to do, throwing out those electoral votes, you wouldn't have had a january 6th as we know it. that's what he said. what do you think of that? it was your fault. you were to blame. >> well, i know one of the attorneys that was advising the president said the same thing in a text on january the 6th. >> yes. >> but his attorneys --

>> john eastman -- >> were wrong, and president trump is wrong. i know by god's grace we did our duty that day, to act out the expressed constitution of the united states. states control elections. once states send electoral votes to the congress, the only role the congress has is to open and count. they can consider objections which democrats brought in which republicans prevailed. they can consider it, but at the end of the day, the congress is to open and count electoral votes certified by the states, no more, no less. >> i mean, he says in many ways you can blame him for january 6th. i mean, you were the one that had to be evacuated, that was facing calls for people who were saying that they wanted to hang you, and he's saying, in many ways you can blame him. blame you for january 6th. 7. >> well, it's one of the reasons why despite the fact that the

president and i actually parted amicably when we left the white house, and spoke several times in the weeks that followed that after i saw him return to type of rhetoric in the spring of 2021, we'd just gone our separate ways. >> i want to play you something donald trump said to me when i asked him if he was concerned about your safety on that day. i asked directly about -- >> were you worried about him during that siege? were you worrie about his safety? >> no. i thought he was well protected and i had heard he was in good shape. no, because i had heard he was in very good shape, but bsh did you no. >> because you heard those chants. that was terriblen. >> he could have -- well, the people were very angry. >> they were saying hang mike pence. >> it's common sense, jon. it's common sense that you're supposed to protect -- how can you -- if you know a vote is fraudulent, right? >> yeah. >> how can you pass on a fraudulent vote to congress?

>> i mean, he's effectively justifying our excusing the actions of people who were calling for you to be hanged. >> there is no excuse for the violence that took place at the capitol on january 6th, and i'll never diminish it as long as i live, but, look. i -- the president's wrong. he was wrong that day, and i would actually hope he would come around in time, jon, that he would see the cadre of advisers he had him with had led him astray, and he hasn't done so. i think it's one of the reasons why this country just wants a fresh start. >> does saying -- does justifying those murderous chants, does that effectively

disqualify him from being chander in chief again? >> i think that's a judgment for the american people to make. >> what's your judgment about it? >> i'm confident they'll make it. well, look, i'll be honest with you. i was angry that day, and while i believe in forgiveness, i have been working hard at that for awhile. the president let me down that day. he let the country down that day, but thanks to the courage of law enforcement, the riot was quelled. we reconvened the conference the very same day, and that very same day of tragedy became a day of freedom and i'll be proud of our small part in that, but to be honest with you the emotions of that day, the emotions since, i just haven't had time for it. to me, there's just too many issues that we're facing in this country today under the failed policies of this administration

that -- i don't have a lot of time for looking backwards. >> could you ever support him again for president? >> i think that's yet to be seen, jon. i must tell you that i think we'll have better choices. we're going to decide as a family whether we offer ourself as one of them, but i think different times call for different leadership. >> you had said back in september of 2020 that president trump, he's a man of his word. >> mm-hmm. >> do you still believe that? >> i'm very proud of the record of the trump/pence administration. >> is he a man of his word? >> on one issue after another, we kept our word. whether it be military, cutting taxes on unleashing energy, supporting the border, giving us a new beginning for life. one issue after another. i saw the president keep the word he'd made to the american president and i was proud of those four years to stand with

him. that grates on some people in the national media, jon, but as i wrote in my book, i am proud of our work in the administration. it didn't end well. we saw america through that pandemic and led our nation through greater prosperity and scurity in those first three years than any time of my lifetime, and i'll always be proud of the record of the trump/pence administration. >> i'm not asking about the record. i'm asking about the man. i always tell people, to know president trump is to know his word is his bond. he lied to the american people about what you had told him about january 6th, that you couldn't do it. he put out a statement saying that you were in complete agreement with him. that's just one of many, many, many examples. you don't still think to know president trump is to know his word is his bond. not the record of the administration, donald trump the man. >> i said that and

i meant it. i was deeply disappointed with the president's words and conduct in the days leading up to january 6th and on january 6th. >> and since, right? and since because he's continued -- >> you know, but, you know, as i wrote in my book, the next day when the president committed to a peaceful transfer of power, when he condemned the violence at the capitol -- >> mm-hmm. >> -- i thought we were back on track, and in the week that followed, we would -- we spoke. i was very direct with him. >> yeah. >> about my experience, and my view of it, and my belief that i had done my duty, and we parted amicably and respectfully, but in the months that followed, he returned to that same rhetoric he was using before january 6th, rhetoric thatcontinues much up this day, and that's why we've

gone our separate ways, and i continue to -- i continue to be disappointed in the fact that the president has not seen his way clear to know that by god's grace, we did our duty that day. >> can you -- can you clarify your position on testifying to the special counsel? you've cited the speech and debate clause, and i want to talk about your role over that day. my understanding of the subpoena is there are 16 separate things that they want from you, 16 different topic areas and only maybe two of them would be directly about you presiding over the joint session that day. so are you willing to testify about other matters? >> well, jon, as you know, i'm limited in what i can say about proceedings related to the grand jury, but just as i did on january 6th when i upheld the constitution of the united states, i think preserving the separation of powers, the speech and debate protections that legislators have, and that those

operating in the legislative branch have is enormously important to the life of the nation. we simply don't want an executive branch to be able to haul legislators into court every time there's a policy dispute. i directed my attorneys to make -- to make a strong case in defense of my role as president of the senate, presiding over a joint session of congress on that day, and in the preparation for that, and we'll let the courts sort it out, but i've actually never asserted that other matters unrelated to january 6th would otherwise be protected by speech and debate. >> so you may be willing to testify on other matters, just not specifically your role in -- >> i'll stand firm on the constitution of the united states. we'll let the courts sort that out, and -- >> i want to be clear -- >> i'll obey the law. >> i don't want to misinterpret your remarks.

you are open to testifying on other matters? >> we're goi t rpect tco and it may take us all the way to the highest court in the land, but i promise you we'll respect the decisions of the court, but i'm going to stand firmly on the constitution. >> but it's not that you are objecting to talking about for instance, the broader attempt to overturn the election. >> as i've said, we're not asserting executive privilege which has come up in other conversations the president may well have brought acclaim for that. i just believe that the work that i did preparing for and conducting my role as president of the senate is covered by speech and debate clause. i believe we have the law on our side. >> but the other issues? >> we'll wait and see. >> you're here in iowa. are you running for president? >> we'll, we're giving serious consideration to it, jon, and we're getting a lot of encouragement not only here in iowa, but all across the

country. we're giving careful consideration to what role we might play, but i think now is a time for -- for all of us that care about this country to play a part and make sure we elect leadership at every level and turn and country around in 2024 and beyond. >> you said this decision would come by spring. i know it doesn't feel like spring out there, but monday is officially the first day of spring. what's your timeline? >> i can tell you we're getting closer. we have been spending time with our family, and we have been listening to friends around the country, and i expect before too long we'll -- we'll know what our calling, and i promise to keep you posted. >> vice president pence, thank you for taking the time, and i'll hold you to it you'll let us know when you decide about running for president. >> we sure will, jon. >> we'll have more of our exclusive interview with mike pence later in the program,

including his reaction to rondae season tis calling the war in ukraine a, quote, territorial dispute. and coming up, as the biden administration rushes to the fallout from the silicon valley collapse, elizabeth warren joins us next. oooohhh, it is cold outside time to protect your vehichle from winters wrath of course the hot sun can be tough on vehicles too you need weathertech all year round! come on, protect your investment laser measured floorliners and cargoliner will shield the carpeting from sand and snow for your interior, there's seat protector and sunshade plus, mudflaps and bumpstep for the exterior order american made products at weathertech.com surfs up yeah, right when y bustatic says “whoa.” try bounce lasting fresh.

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n theee them. >> that's treasury secretary janet yellen testifying on capitol hill this week amid growing concerns about the economic impact of silicon valley bank's failure. joining us now is senator elizabeth warren, a member of the senate banking committee. good morning, senator warren. thank you for joining us. >> good morning. good to be with you. >> great to have you. you heard secretary yellen say that she has confidence that the banking system is sound although this week we saw troubles with yet another bank. first republic bank getting a $30 billion lifeline from some of the larger banks. are you as confident as the secretary that the banking ystem is sound? >> well, if i can, let me describe what i see as the problem. starting back in 2016 or so, these multibillion dollar banks that like svb, in fact, gary becker, the ceo of svb came to

washington and kept saying, lighten the regulations on us. we're just, like, tiny little banks to ease up on the regulations. donald trump then ran for president promising he would ease up on the regulations on these multibillion dollar banks. he was then elected president and he put in a lot of regulators who eased up on banking regulations. trump then went to congress and he said, let's ease up even more and with the help of both parties, passed laws to roll back on regulations and open the door to easing up even more. then jerome powell, the chairman of the fed, stepped a flamethrower to the regulations and said, i'm doing this because congress let me do it, and what happened was exactly what we should have predicted, and that is the banks -- these big, multibillion dollar banks loaded up on risk. they boosted their short-term

profits. they gave themselves huge bonuses and big salaries, and they exploded their banks, and so where we stand now is now the federal government's got to step back in and back up these multibillion dollar banks, and i think the -- there's two halves to this. one half is the government is clearly doing, that but others are saying, gee, if they have been so lightly regulated for such a long period, it's important to look under the hood and see what's happening with the other banks. >> i want to ask you about that regular totory period and tryin get those back in place. have you had conversations with regulators about additional banks at risk of failing? >> i'm not going to talk about private conversations, but i think -- let me be clear what i'm calling for right now. i'm calling for an independent

investigation of the fed and the whole regulatory system here. the fed doesn't just get to do its own investigation. i'm calling for the now to reverse its weakened regulations and to bear down, to look at these banks with much more scrutiny, and that i'm also calling on congress as you ri rightly say to roll back the ability of the fed to weaken regulations, and calling for the ceos to be held accountable so that we have laws in place to get clawbacks of their bonuses, of their giant salaries, and when you explode a bank, you ought to be banned from banking forever. >> you think we could see criminal charges? >> it depends. i think there will be investigations, department of justice has opened an investigation. i think that's appropriate for them to do. we'll see where the facts take them, but we got to take a close look at this, and look. we've got to say overall that we

can't keep repeating this approach of weakening the regulation over the s, then stepping in when these giant banks get into trouble. you know, little community banks don't get this benefit. they got to run their shop every single day to make sure they are safe and sound. their regulators bear down pretty hard on them. it's these giant, multibillion dollar banks. there was such an irony that gary becker came to washington and said, weaken the regulations because we're just like those tiny little banks that can't pose a risk to the overall economy, and -- >> if i can ask you -- >> that's obviously not true. >> if i can ask you though, that deregulatory move in 2018 was supported by a number of your democratic colleagues who still defend their votes. i mean, senator bennett. this was a bipartisan

compromise. angus king has said that reimposing the capital requirements as your bill would do to roll back that deregulatory move could public back small and medium-sized banks out of business. how do you follow your fellow democrats who are not on board with this? >> you have to remember that in 2018, the bill that was passed had a lot of different provisions, including a lot of provisions that lightened some of the regulations and made life easier for the community banks, and there were people who supported the bill because of that. the part i'm concerned about is called title iv of the bill, and it's title iv that says these multibillion dollar banks, these banks with $50 billion or more in assets should have lighter regulation. those are the banks for whom the

principal regulator is the federal reserve bank, and those are the banks that took on risky practices that ultimately have, it appears, blown up at least three banks. that's the provision i want to see peeled back out of the law. we need tough regulations. you've got more than $50 billion, then by golly, you ought to be subjected to stress tests and so on. >> i have to ask you about these comments from donald trump asking for protests saying he's about to be arrested. are you concerned about the possibility of violence? >> look. violence is never the right anxi answer, and i always worry about it, but this is another case of donald trump just trying to advance the interests of donald trump, and not the nation. let's be clear about what's going on here. no one is above the law, not

even the former president of the united states, and if there has been an investigation then that investigation should be allowed to go forward appropriately. if it's time to bring indictments, then they'll bring indictments. that's how our legal system works. protests -- there's no reason to protest this. this is the law operating as it should without fear or favor for anyone. >> all right, senator warren. thank you for joining us this morning. the round table weighs in on all of this next. plus, mike pence's sharp words towards ron desantis about america's role in ukraine. we'll be right back. rresistible. ♪ ♪ huh, huh, so did their dog roger. ♪ ♪ gain scent beads keep even the stinkiest stuff smelling fresh.

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i'm sure you've heard fw governor desantis say that the war in ukraine is a territorial dispute. you would disagree? >> the war in ukraine is not a territorial dispute. it's a russian invasion. it's just the latest incidence of russia trying to redraw international lines by force, and the united states of america must continue at a quickened pace to provide the ukrainian military the support that they need to repel the russian invasion, and the stakes are that high. this is a test of american leadership and a test, frankly, of the free world, and as the leader of the free world, as the arsenal of democracy, america needs to continue to ensure that the ukrainian military has what they need. anybody that thinks that vladimir putin will stop if he overruns ukraine has another

thing coming. >> mike pence making the case for american support of ukraine, standing in stark contrast to ron desantis and donald trump. let's bring in our round table, chris christie, donna brazile, mary bruce, and rick klein. so i want to get to desantis in a minute, but first, governor christie, what is donald trump doing, telling the world he's about to be arrested and calling for protests? what's going on? >> the circus continues. i mean, look. he only profits and does well in chaos and turmoil, and so he wants to create the chaos and turmoil on his he doesn't want it on anybody else's terms. jon, you know this well, but in the en, being indicted never helps anybody. it's not a help. now i think this of the three

investigations, i think this is the one where people know most, and so because they know the most, they're going to take it less seriously. i don't think there's many americans that donald trump don't believe he had a relationship with stormy daniels, and don't believe he paid her money at the end of the campaign to keep her quiet. i don't think the american people probably see this as a huge crime, but the vision of a former president of the united states being processed, fingerprinted, mug shotted -- >> mug shot. >> what else do you expect trump to say as i said last week, other than to say it helps his campaign? being indicted i don't think ever helps anybody. >> is there any concern though about the -- this is the case. do you have a democratically elected manhattan d.a. prosecuting him over hush payments to a porn star? this wouldn't be the one case donna brazile --

>> stephanie clifford is her actual name. she's a native of louisiana. he lived in louisiana. >> of course, she is. >> let's just say this. donald trump was being provoca provocative. donald trump was selling or advertising his next rally. donald trump was once again -- >> in waco, texas. >> in waco, texas a week from yesterday, next saturday. donald trump understands how to play this game. eb he believes if he can get out in front of a story no matter what the story is, and set the terms, then this is all about dnald trump. everything that happens in donald trump's mind and world is about recognition and resources. his next thing, if you are doing poorly -- >> it's true. >> if you are doing well which was made possible by the trump

administration. he drops pence all the time. sec send your donation. this is about trump. >> raising money off this. >> the last thing we want is a sequel to january 6th. wee don't want any harm. people can protest peacefully as the former vice president said, be you to incite another mob, no. >> he is daring his other republican rivals and potential rivals to come out and attack this d.a. and one who has said nothing so far is desantis. >> i think he recognizes this is potentially a major moment in the early part of this campaign. it's putting people on record on trump. it brings up january 6th all over again, and you got into it in your interview whether there's any room there to be with trump enough, but not all the way, particularly when it's through a prism of a prosecutor if new york who has partisan leanings, knowing this prosecution is questionable, and it could blow up and there are stronger cases out there. how do republicans handle this

home. -- moment? are they going to parade donald trump in handcuffs or say, we disagree with him on other things? it tells you how hard it is to walk this line on trump. >> pence comes out by attacking, but also in a measured way. politically charged, but not politically motivated. what are democrats saying? >> to donna's point, he's laying the groundwork. that's what donald trump is going to. he's good at it. what strikes me about republicans is what kevin mccarthy said. he wants to launch an investigation into political persian cu persecution. democrats are sitting back and what ching the show. they're perfectly happy to sit back and watch this play out. a this ultimately will politically help him and drive his numbers, and it may very well, but i think for democrats right now, they're going to sit back, let republicans fight it out, let it show that republicans are

this incredibly difficult position, trying to distance themselves from trump, and running against a felon wouldn't be a bad thing for joe biden. >> what was kevin mccarthy talking about? seriously, what did he mean by that? >> i think two things can exist at the same time, jon. >> yeah. >> so you can look at alvin bragg as the manhattan d.a., see that he's a partisan. >> yep. >> see that he people's opinions including people who live in manhattan, he's failed at his jobs. mayor adams doesn't like alvin bragg. >> yeah. >> but you can also think that donald trump is not someone who could be a winning general election candidate for the republican party because of all these things. those two things can exist at the same time, and you're not walking a line. i think you're just telling the truth. i think what kevin mccarthy is doing is what kevin's done all along. he's got a small majority of six votes in the house. he's got a very raucous caucus,

and he's got to try to -- someone is walking the line. kevin walks the line every day. so that's what he's doing, and so that's -- >> and trump will call on him to do that. he had to hear it. >> i don't know that trump has to call on him at this point. i think kevin understands what he needs to do to manage his caucus, and by the way when he says things about alvin bragg that are partisan and negative, he's not wrong in my view, but it also doesn't mean for donald trump -- >> a federal investigation -- >> that's all he can do, jon. >> a definition of weaponization weaponization. to go after the d.a. for doing his job. he's following the law. >> we don't know that yet. >> we don't know anything, but -- >> that's all i'm saying. >> the point is he has said openly that he's going to follow the law. this is about the law, and we'll see -- and one thing he has said to his credit, he said, i will -- i will do my part in the court, not, you know, on tv, but

look. this is a party that continues to say that they are for law and order when it suits them, but it doesn't suit them when the crime is gun violence, when the crime is seeing this country suffer from the kind of violence and crime across the board. >> i'm not going to stand up for that. let me tell you who doesn't -- let me tell you who doesn't enforce law and order when it comes to gun violence. i go into new york city every week. it is a danger zone to go into manhattan because alvin bragg is running a revolving door and not prosecuting gun crime and violent criminals and if he does, he lets them out within four hours of when they're arrested to commit more crimes. let's not get into that because alvin bragg has failed miserably. >> you have republicans that are going up against law enforcement now, you know, defund the fbi. >> that's wrong too. >> but let me ask you about what wem pence. he's coming out a little stronger against donald trump,

but he can't quite go too far. what's your take, rick? what's he trying to do? is there a path? >> this is the question that's looming over this race. we might know about desantis who's polling well, but trump has this big segment of the electo electorate. is there a group of that that might peel off, and is there something else you can consolidate behind? that's the notion that pence is testing and those are the things you have to do. saying you were out with him in iowa, but it's a very break. he's going to call out prosecutors and say he was with trump every step of the way until january 6th. that measured language. is that something republican primary voters are willing to go for? that'll loom over this race for awhile. >> mary. >> mike pence has a loyally problem. is he loyal to donald trump's sporters or the part of the

party that's trying to break away? he's walking this fine line, but i'm not sure how well that serves him politically. do you have to pick a side at some point? >> yes. >> he's trying to appease everyone, and i'm not sure how long that's going to work. i think about him really twisting himself into a pretzel, trying not to be too -- >> still says he's a man of his word. >> and this is where i think mike pence will have a problem because think about those days in the run up to january 6th. he was not exactly calling out conspiracy theories about election fraud. he was not telling donald trump to knock it off and since then he has not been outspoken about election deniers and he has campaigned for some in the midterms. as you see desantis and trump slug it out, there's a middle road that pence can take. he has to be careful i

>> look. i introduced mike pence the donald trump. >> this is your fault? >> he didn't know donald trump, had never met him until the spring of 2016. so i've known donald trump three times longer than mike pence has, and donald trump's not a man of to his word. so let's just say it. if you think -- you can ask david perdue in georgia. >> we tried to get him. >> then backed away. ask doug mastriano of pennsylvania. ask those if he stood by his promises. the bigger problem is the question for someone like vice president pence i would suggest is would be at 2:30 in the morning on election night, how did you feel when you heard donald trump standing in the east room of the white house behind the seal of the president saying the election had been stolen? did you agree with that? if you didn't, then why didn't you come out and say something? so i think giving him the leeway

to january 6th is pretty generous, jon. >> yeah. >> because the rhetoric that ra caused january 6th started that night. >> it started before election night. before we go, rick, republicans have come out and piled on big-time on ron desantis. we see this kind of, like, you know, being sensitive about not taking on trump too directly. i mean, they -- after what he said about ukraine with the territorial dispute, do what dou make of this? >> he's taking the trump position, but they're criticizing desantis, and not trump. they smell blood. they're echoing some of the concerns that are out there in the republican donor world. is desantis the guy? he hasn't been tested on a national or international stage. can you be trumpy enough, but find an avenue to break? >> and i want to read something chris sununu said this week

about desantis. he said, no one's gotten to know him the way they need to get to know him. i don't know if they ever will. do you think ron desantis ever sat down with a cup of coffee for a reporter? no. it's physically not in him. he can't do it. he doesn't have the social connection with folks. what do you think? he's the leading alternative to trump. he's not running and hasn't announced, but -- >> in 2015, jeb bush and scott walker were the front-runners at this moment in the race in march of 2015. i don't think it much matters. i think what matters is how you perform, and ultimately he had his first moment for performance this week, and in my view, he failed miserably. >> on ukraine? >> on ukraine. a territorial dispute and when you get your preparety surveyed why your house is, and they say, your neighbor's fence is six inches into your property. that's a territorial dispute. not when you take tangs ks and artillery to a free country and

f try to take their people by force. >> there's two lanes in the republican party right now, the trump lane and he occupies it 100%, and the anti-trump lane. mr. desantis is trying to get into the trump lane, and he's going to get badly beaten. i don't think he will do very well. i've seen you work a room. i don't think he can work a room. he can read a script, but not work a room. >> we are out of time. rachel scott follows the money looking at pandemic stimulus funds and the scammers who took advantage. that's next. is driven by eosinophils, which nucala helps reduce. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, io,

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signing legislation to extend the statute of limitations pand. senior congressional correspondent rachel scott follows up on the effort to crack down on covid funding fraud as part of her series "through the cracks." >> reporter: it's been called an unprecedented wave of fraud. >> tonight in florida, a pastor and his son arrested for allegedly stealing more than $8 million in federal covid relief funds. >> reporter: scammers taking advantage of government aid for businesses, used instead to buy mansions, luxury handbags, sports cars, cryptocurrency, even a rare pokemon card. three years later, unsuspecting victims are still paying the price. >> the loan was i don't have that. >> reporter: the country shut down. congress approved the largest stimulus package in history. the $2 trillion cares act, a lifeline to businesses, hospitals and local governments

on the verge of economic ruin. >> a decision was made at the outset of the pandemic. speed was the key. we're going to send the money out. we're not going to vet people. that was a bad choice. >> reporter: inspector general mich michael michael horowitz says the administration ignored key warnings. >> what recommendations specifically were ignored? >> the small business administration inspector general right at the outset of the pandemic said, stop relying on self-certifications. check people. make sure they're real people. that didn't happen until 2021. >> reporter: abc news reviewed several reports from the inspector general and found a troubling pattern. the agency was late, taking a recommended step to weed out fraudulent loan applications that should not have been claims asheyame in. yearem to t richard lowe was a practicing

physician for 37 years. he says he and his wife donna got a letter from the sva demanding they pay back $100,000 in loans they say they never took out for a farm that doesn't exist. >> our i.d.s were stolen by someone who took out two sba loans. those loans have caused the government to hound us. >> reporter: according to the government's top watchdog, the sba awarded $5.4 billion in small business aleave to nearly 70,000 app cants with suspect social security numbers. two administrations and nearly $5 trillion in aid later, investigators are still scrambling to find out how much of that money has been siphoned off by investigators. do we have any idea what the scope is of fraud? >> i wouldn't be surprised if it exceeds over $100 billion, but

we're still chasing the money and following the fraud. >> reporter: in a statement, the sba declined to comments on the situation, but said it is committed to providing relief to victims of identity theft. with the biden administration prepared to announce an executive order focused on aiding and protecting victims, as the justice department's team of covid fraud partners continues to go after scammers. >> isn't there any resource for those victims of fraud? >> it's very hard. for the victims of fraud, the federal government has not done a particularly effective job in helping victims of identity theft. >> reporter: for "this week," rachel scott. >> the full story airs this tuesday live with linsey davis. we'll be right back.

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