today on getting answers. a mask debate in san francisco. but it has nothing to do with covid. a mask made popular by a rapper is causing fierce debate in san

francisco. the latest fashion accessory or accessory to crime? san francisco's most controversial bathroom is back in the headlines. an sfgate reporter gave this pricey, nationally known noe valley toilet a flush and joins us to tell us about it. but first, the us supreme court will hear a case this month that could turn homelessness into a crime. could the ruling make life worse for the many unsheltered here in the bay area? you are watching, getting answers. i'm kristen sze. thanks for joining us. a case out of oregon coming before the supreme court next week will seek to answer the question. can someone be charged with a crime because of things related to being homeless? the decision could significantly impact california in the bay area, where homelessness is a long stding challenge. a senior correspondent for the online media site vox, someone who had once clerked for a federal appeals court, has written an analysis of the case known as grants pass versus johnson. ian

millhiser joins us live now to talk about it. thanks for coming on the show, ian. >> good to be here. thanks so much. >> yeah, i should mention to our viewers just that vox is rated by influence watch as left leaning with a model that mixes news and opinion. now that we have that out of the way, i would like you to tell us about the case. who are the parties and what are they arguing? >> sure. so you have this city, grants pass, oregon. they haven't literally made it a crime to be homeless in grants pass. but what they have done is they have said that, they've essentially made it so that you can't wrap yourself in a blanket, you can't sleep at a park bench, you can't do any of the things that if you don't have shelter in grants pass, you're eventually going to have to do. and so it is the functional equivalent of making it illegal to be in grants pass while you are homeless. and the question is whether that is

allowed, whether whether a city is essentially to make the status of not having a home be something that can be a crime, i see. >> is there an issue in grants pass as we have in san francisco, some other big cities, with regard to enough shelters for people like there are beds available and, you know, whether that plays into whether something could be criminalized or not. >> yeah. i mean, we have a housing crisis in many cities. it's too hard to build in this country. and so a lot of cities are facing a crisis of homelessness. there are some shelters available. and that's actually one of the issues in this case was what the ninth circuit, the lower court that already heard this case said is that you can't, you cannot make it a crime to be what they called in voluntarily homeless. and it's unclear what that means. you know, if you could go to a shelter, but you're afraid you're not safe there, are you?

involuntarily homeless? if you could go to a shelter. but like the last time you went to a shelter, you had your laptop stolen. are you involuntarily homeless? so there's a lot of nuanced questions here about who this court order actually applies to and what it means to say that someone has no choice but to sleep out in public. >> all right, well, ian, whatever you know happens here in terms of the ruling, tell us what the ramifications might be if they decide to find in favor of grants pass. what does this mean for other american cities such as san francisco and elsewhere? >> so it depends on what the supreme court says. >> like the broadest opinion, the supreme court could hand down is in the 1960s, there was a case california made it a crime to essentially be physically present in the state of california. for while you are addicted to a narcotic. and the

supreme court said, no, that's not allowed. you can make it a crime to use a narcotic. you can make it a crime to possess a narcotic, but you can't say the mere status of having an addiction is something that could be criminalized. you cannot be. it cannot be a crime to be who you are. you actually have to do something. the city in this case is asking the supreme court essentially to overrule that decision. and that would be an earthquake. i mean, that would open the door to thought crimes. that would mean that a city could potentially say that you can't enter the city unless you are rich enough, or if there's something about you that you don't like, that could be that. that could be a crime. i don't think that's likely to happen. but there are big stakes here, and they go far beyond people who don't have shelter. >> what do you think are the legal precedents or legal principles that might come into play as the argues, as the attorneys argue, this case? >> so i think the toughest issue in the case, i don't think the

supreme court is likely to say that you can criminalize status, that you could say merely being physically present in a city while you are homeless is a crime. >> but the big question here is, can the city criminalize a whole bunch of acts, that it is inevitable that if someone is unhoused, they are going to perform one of those acts with the intention of achieving the same result of just saying, if you are present while homeless, that is criminal, right? >> like wearing a blanket, using the public restroom after 10 p.m. at night or, you know, being a public space after a certain hour, things like that. but your headline also says this case could make the entire criminal justice system far crueler. why? how so >> well, my biggest concern, like i said, is that the court could overrule or at least make incursions on that case called robinson from the 1960s, the one involving drug addiction. >> that said, it cannot be a

crime simply to be who you are. you know, you know the rule right now is that the police cannot arrest you until you commit some kind of illegal action, and you know, the city in this case is asking the supreme court to overrule that. i think that would be an extraordinary action. if the supreme court does that, it would be a fundamental change to how the criminal law works. but this supreme court also overrules a lot of precedent. so we can't rule that we can't rule that outcome out completely. yeah. >> well, roe v wade is one that comes right to mind. what are the real life implications for individuals and families, you know, facing homelessness? obviously some very bad outcomes are possible. right >> that's right. i mean, again, everything depends on the nuances of what the court's decision says. but the court could, you know, give cities a whole lot more leeway. and i mean, you have several i mean, san francisco is asking the supreme court to give them more

leeway to do things like to clear out homeless camps. you know, you know, to say that you can't gather here, you got you you got to go to this other place. so even if the supreme court doesn't go quite so far as to say it can be a crime simply to be homeless while you are physically present in san francisco, there is a risk that they could, you know, just make life much harder for people who are on house. right? >> the city of san francisco does argue that it needs to have more tools and little more power in order to solve this real problem that, you know, and they're arguing compassionate means not leaving people in that state, but that is a whole nother argument, a whole nother story. but i want to ask you, what are some alternatives that could be maybe more effectively addressing the issue, but balancing legal and human factors, anything shown to have worked here or elsewhere? >> so i think the courts, if i'm being perfectly honest, aren't the best vehicle in the world to address the problem of

homelessness. >> i mean, all that courts can really do is order a city or a state not to do something it's already doing. and you know, the problem, the fundamental problem we have in this country is it's too hard to build. we need to make it possible for san francisco and really for every city in the country to just build more homes. you can't have more $1.7 million toilets. it has to be possible to build. that's the only way we're going to solve this homelessness crisis. >> you looked ahead to our next story, which i do appreciate, ian. all right. oral arguments are scheduled for next monday. will certainly be following it really appreciate your time today. ian millhiser with vox. thank you. >> thank you. >> the jury is out on san francisco's latest accessory. it's a mask made popular by rapper. find out why it's stirring up

mask has become the latest streetwear accessory, but some are critical of its rise as a fashion statement. here's what they look like. our media partner, the san francisco standard, published this new article exploring how the sheisty mask caught on. it covers someone's head, neck and mouth, but leaves their eyes exposed. joining us live now to explain this is san francisco standard reporter joel umanzor. hey, joel. >> hey, how are you guys doing? thanks for having me. >> oh, we're doing great. thanks give us the background. what is the sheisty mask? who popularized it? >> so, yeah, the sheisty mask has kind of grown over popularity, not just in the san francisco, but nationwide since

the pandemic. and the mask restrictions went in place around that time, primarily through, you know, hip hop and rap and rapper pooh shiesty from memphis kind of popularized the trend. and it's kind of spread to different areas of the country. now i know it came up during the pandemic, but really, doctors will say that's not very good against spreading the, you know, the virus. >> it's, nonetheless, that's when people start wearing it. so who is wearing it locally? like, is there a particular age group, particular area of the bay area so you can find it all over? >> but we found mostly around, you know, the tenderloin, the mission, and it's really popularized with, you know, the younger crowd, the 25 age and under range, you know, talking to folks out on the street, people that had them, you know, it ranged from people that just use it in their everyday life, whether it be for work. we talk to a loss prevention, person who uses it to conceal his identity while he's on the clock. we talked to people on the street that had them that said, you know, we use it to kind of

conceal our identity from, you know, whether that be law enforcement or people around and, you know, people that use it on tiktok and social media. so it kind of it was a broad range of people who use it. >> all right. i mean, you listed a couple of reasons, right, that people said why they wear it, but are there other things that people say they like about it? and this kind of mask in particular? right. because, there are others. there are ski masks, and there are other ones that cover your whole face. >> yeah. i mean, for the most part, you know, people that are living on san francisco streets as well, you know, wear them to kind of, you know, you know, keep their face, okay during the elements, you know, whether that be cold weather, rain, whatnot, you know, there's really a broad range of, of uses for it. but i mean, we found that particularly with the younger crowd, teenagers, high schoolers, it's kind of really taken off as being, you know, part of their accessories list, you know, whether that be, you know, what kind of stuff they're carrying

around in their pocket. it's just like another thing, another accessory for them to put on as they're kind of going about their day. >> okay. but some don't like this trend at all. in fact, you wrote that some store owners will actually kick you out if you're wearing one. can you explain why? >> yeah, i mean, it really depended on where we went. you know, the bigger, you know, stores like macy's at union square, department stores, you know, where particularly, you know, request people to take them off. whereas, like the smaller market stores in the tenderloin, tended to not have an issue because they say that they know people. they know, you know, everybody that goes there is a regular and they can tell who's who based on their eyes. so it really depended on what kind of, retail establishment we went to, you know, answers kind of varied. >> okay. but what challenges do they pose for surveillance efforts by groups like the tenderloin community benefit district, the tenderloin community benefit district specifically said that, you

know, they actually have this network of cameras in the neighborhood, and it just makes it a lot more difficult when something does happen and involves, you know, a crime happens where somebody's wearing a mask, they, you know, have to follow that particular person from camera to camera. and it makes the job more tedious, for those that are trying to, you know, relay information to law enforcement. >> so some cities have passed laws banning them in some places. >> yeah, yeah. >> you know, we the debate hasn't necessarily arisen here in san francisco on the city level, but there have been places around the country that have, you know, enacted bans. philadelphia, specifically at the end of last year, enacted a ban on the shiesty in places like schools and transit areas, atlanta also brought it up for debate. but and eventually tabled that and didn't go through with the with the sheisty ban. okay. >> so you said san francisco hasn't really touched it yet on a government level. did you reach out to them to ask them what they think? >> yeah, i reached out to,

specifically a couple of the supervisors in the areas where we saw it the most, whether that be soma or the tenderloin, but we unfortunately didn't get a response back by publication time. >> okay. now i understand that some are incorporating this mask into their brand. right. and you mentioned a tiktok creator. >> yeah, we actually got in touch with, south san francisco fitness, tiktok creator, bay area ski man and his particular angle for a lot of his content was doing calisthenics exercises with the sheisty mask on. it was a way for him to be, anonymous while encouraging others to, you know, promote a, you know, a fitness lifestyle. >> all right. well, i guess it's not going away. so for folks interested, where do they buy them? how much are these? >> i mean, you can find them pretty much at any market in the tenderloin or in, in the mission as well, these, you know, small neighborhood stores, corner

stores and, you know, it it depends on what kind of quality you want. you know, if you want something that's more nylon and thin, it might run you about anywhere from 5 to 8 bucks. if it's something that's more, thicker and sturdy, it might run you about 15. so it really depends on what kind of quality you're looking for. your sheisty mask, i see. >> well, look, i acknowledge i'm a little older. i always say to the kids, i want to see your face, your whole face, not part of your face. so i'm not sure i quite get it even after your fabulous report. but i acknowledge that it is definitely a trend and i am not young. joel, thank you so much. really appreciate it. >> no problem. thanks for having me. >> you can check out joel's story and more of the san francisco standard's other original reporting on their website, sf standard.com. all right. it's been a hot topic in san francisco's noe valley. that pricey potty that even made national headlines. an sfgate reporter tells us why

this one's one of them. has to be the new noe valley public toilet. this red facility that opened this week is the final chapter of a story that had many twists and turns. it all began with a public uproar when the bathroom project was going to originally cost $1.7 million, the saga became known as toilet gate, a symbol of the city's wasteful spending. an intrepid sfgate reporter decided to try the restroom for himself, the cost now lower afterhe outcry. as for what he thought, well, here's his headline. joining us live now is sfgate politics reporter alec regimbal. alex flushed with excitement. aren't you? totally. yeah. okay. sorry i had to put that out there, but i'm bummed. how did you describe the experience again with with the c word, you know, rhymes with crappy, but okay, before we get into that. okay, let's just refresh our memory really

quickly. why so much attention on this one bathroom? what is the tortured story of how it came to be? >> so initially, when assembly member matt haney announced that he had secured the funds, for the project, he said that the price tag or he said that he had secured $1.7 million, which is, almost it's actually a little bit more than double what, like the high end of what a normal public restroom would cost, so that obviously he got a lot of attention. you know, there were a lot of jokes out there about whether or not the toilet was going to be made of gold and things like that, just a really eye popping figure, and that attracted the attention of even the governor, to say that that was definitely too much to pay for a toilet. >> right. so then they scrapped it back to the drawing board, and eventually they came up with this, the red thing that we now see. so i guess as a great reporter, you decided you had to check it out for yourself, right

? >> yeah. i, it's kind of weird, but i really do, i almost consider myself like a bathroom connoisseur. like, i really enjoy a nice, good, luxurious bathroom. so, you know, even though the initial price tag came down by a ton, i figured that i really needed to go out and see what this, you know, $625,000 toilet would look like, the city almost. they ended up spending about $200,000 on it in total. and i wanted to see what they got for their money. >> okay, so here we go. the yelp review. lay it on us. describe your experience as a connoisseur. you know, i would i would say that for a project that has gotten a lot of coverage, it is, very, very unremarkable, some people i talked to out there described it as barren, plain, and that was my experience as well. it's got one toilet, it's got a hand charging station or a changing station, the hand sanitizer dispenser, a sink and, a hand

dryer. and i mean, the bathroom here in my office is nicer and has more amenities, you know, i think the takeaway here is that the neighborhood really wanted and needed a bathroom, and they're happy that they got it. but as far as you know, the quality of the bathroom, it's, it's pretty mediocre. pretty middle of the road. yeah. >> i mean, it looks kind of standard issue, right, made for ease of cleaning, but in the end, didn't they spend kind of, like, middle of the road money on it? so isn't that kind of what you expected? >> that's true. yeah. they spent, you know, $200,000 on it, which again, you know, some public restrooms. i've read, you know, they can cost as little as $80,000. and my understanding is that, you know, the money that they did spend went for things like inspections and permits, but the value of the building itself was about 425,000. i mean, that's almost half a million. so, you know, that is

about the that that exceeds like, the high range of what a normal public restroom would cost. so i, i agree with you that the city, you know, they didn't spend a lot of money on this, but when i heard that the bathroom was going to be, you know, a value of about 625 k, i expected a lot more. >> all right. so you spoke to some other people who use the restroom, right? your fellow bathroom users or connoisseurs, what were their thoughts, again, like plain barren, cost way too much money, one gentleman decided or described it as it's all it needs to be, and i think that is the most apt description, you know, really nothing luxurious or over the top or ostentatious about it. it it's a public bathroom. and even though they spent a lot of money on it, it really is all it needs to be, the business owners i talked to around there were also the business owners i talked to around there were also really

happy that it was there, some of those businesses. martha and brothers coffee, you know, all of this, all of that, like they had almost become the default rest stop in the area, especially on saturdays when the noe valley farmers market is going on, and they were really, really happy that they're not going to, you know, have lines out the door for their bathroom anymore. >> i see, so it did solve a community problem. and so that was done. any lessons for the future here? any lessons learned or drawn from all this? >> if you secure funds for a public project that is as small as a public restroom in a san francisco neighborhood, maybe take the time to think about whether or not the funds you did secure are too much before announcing it to the city. >> all right. and that's going to be the last word. thank you so much, alec regimbal, for sfgate. appreciate your time.

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>> thank you for watching. getting answers today. we'll be here every weekday at 3:00, answering questions with experts from around the bay area. coming up on abc seven news at four new developments in the ongoing battle over a planned name change for the oakland airport. now, san francisco is suing the port of oakland over that change. more on that battle coming up at four. world news tonight with david muir is coming up next. and i'll see you back here at four. tonight, breaking news as we come on the air. the full jury has just been seated in donald trump's criminal trial. what we know about the jurors who will decide trump's fate, and when this trial now begins. also breaking news tonight, the scare on the nw