10/24/19 10/24/19 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, ththis is democracy now! from go we have secured the oil, therefore, a small number of troops will remain in the area where they have the oil. and we're going to be protecting it and w we will be deciding wht we're going to do with it in the future. amy: as president trump announces sanctions will be lifted on turkey following its invasion of northern syria, he admits some u.s. t troops will remain in the region to protect

oil fields in syria. we will speak to andrew bacevich , president of the newly formed quincy institute for responsible statecraft. then to capitol hill where republican lawmakers stormed into a secure room at the capital to disrupt the impeachment proceedings against president trump. >> the tactic start in an effort to delay the inevitable. they are a response to just damaging and pulverizing testimony yesterday from a courageous ambassador bill taylor. but they will not stop us in pursuing t the truth. amy: we will go to capitol hill for the latest on the impeachment proceedings. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. president trump said wednesday sanctions will be lifted on turkey as a ceasefire remains in place in northern syria. turkey invaded the region

earlier this month after trump withdrew u.s. support for syrian kurds who had helped the u.s. fight ththe islamic ststate. more than 11,000 kurds died in that campaign. while president trump had vowed toto remove u.s. troops from syria, he acknowledged on wednesday that some u.s. troops will s stay to guard the oil fields. >> a small number of u.s. troops will remain in the area where they have the oil. we're going to be protecting it and d we will be deciding what we're going to do with it in the future. let someone else fightht over ts .ong bloloodstained sand amy: russian and turkish forces have agreed to join patrols along the syrian-turkish border after president e erdogan presidident putin n met in soch, russia, and agree to a plan that would force syrian kurdish forces to return from a wide swath of the region. the united nations reports the defense of displaced over 1 170

6000 peoeople, including nearlyy 80,000 chihildren. geneva, switzerland, a syrian kurdish man set himself on fire outside the headquarters of the united nations high commissioner for refugees wednesday. he was airlifted to a hospital. we will have more on this crisis in after headlines. on capitol hill, republican lawmakers stormed a closed congressional hearing room wednesday, disrupting the house impeachment investigation and preventing a pentagon official from testifying for five hours. the protest violated house rules, including a ban on cell phones and other electronic devices inside a room known as the scif, or sensitive compartmented information facility. meanwhile, trump continues to lash out at the impeachment investigation. on wednesday, he blasted the u.s. ambassador to ukraine bill taylor as a "never trumper," one day after he told congress that trump withheld hundreds of

millions of dollars of military aid to ukraine in a bid to force its leaders to incriminate trump's political rival, joe biden. in an angry tirade on twitter, trump warned of a number of growing republican critics tweeting, "watch out for them, they are human scum!" this comes as "the new york times" is reporting top ukrainian officials were told in early august about the delay of military aid, undercutting one of president trump's main denials that he engaged in a quid pro quo. and the associated press reports that in may, ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky spent hours with his advisers discussing trump's pressure campaign to force him to investitigate joe biden. later in the broadcast, we will go to capitol hill for the latest on the peach men investigation. -- impeachment investigation. in manhattan, a personal attorney for donald trump told a federal court wednesday that the

president could neither be investigated for a crime nor prosecuted, even for murder. the argument by trump's attorney william s. consovoy came as he sought to quash a subpoena seeking the president's private financial records about hush money payments made to adult film star stormy daniels ahead of the 2016 election. during wednesday's hearing, judge denny chin asked consovoy about trump's infamous comment in 2016 that he could shoot someone on fifth avenue in manhattan and not lose any voters. >> what is your view on the fifth avenue example? could notorities investigate, they could not do anything about it? >> once a president is removed from office kemeny local authority -- this is not permanent immunity. >> i'm talking about while in office. nothing could be done? that is your position? >> that is correct. amy: a lawyer for manhattan's district attorney's office

responded, "there is no such thing as presidential immunity for tax returns" and "they're making this up." in chile, the death toll from anti-government protests has risen to 18, as concessions by president sebastian pinera failed to quell anger over rising inequality, the high cost of living, and privatization. on wednesday, a four-year-old child and an adult were killed after an unidentified driver rammed a crowd of protesters in the city of san pedro de la paz. this comes amid mounting reports of brutality and torture by chilean authorities. chile's national institute of human rights says police or soldiers have killed at least five of the protesters. in spain, authorities have exhumed the body of fascist dictator francisco franco from a state-run mausoleum to be reburied in a private family vault. franco oversaw a brutal 40-year dictatorship until his death in 1975. this is spanish historian and former p political prisoner undr franco's dictatorship, nicolas

sanchez albornoz. >> it was time to move him. we have waited many decades for him to disappear from this monument, which in and of itself was the shame of them. miscellany. we are not honored with such tombs. the truth is the contradiction cult of a man who was the opposite of democratic. amy: in london, lawyers for wikileaks cofounder julian assange are warning of a blow to press freedom worldwide after court denied his request for a delay in his u.s. extradition hearings scheduled for february. assange, who's been jailed by british authorities since he was dragged out of the ecuadorean embassy by london police in april, appeared dazed and frail at a court appearance monday, struggling to say his own name and birthday before telling a judge, "i can't think properly." human rights groups have warned

assange has suffered psychological totorture in brith stody. thisis is nils melzer,r, the und nations special rapporteur on totorture, who visited assange last may in lolondon's belmarsh prison. >> i spoke with him foror an hor just to get a good first impression, then we had a by anal examination expert and then we had the two hour examination. all three of us had the same impression [indiscernible] we all came to the conclusion he showed all of the symptoms typical for a person who has been exposed to psychological torture over an extended period of time. amy: julian assange faces up to 175 years in prison if he's extradited to the united states to face hacking charges and 17 counts of viviolating the world war i-era espionage act. elsewhere in britain, police have launched the one of the largest murder investigations in decades after the bodies of 39

people were discovered in the back of a tractor-trailer at an industrial park east of london. the truck had a refrigerator unit. it was not immediately clear if the victims froze to death or suffocated. the essex police department said the deaths were likely the result of human trafficking. a police spokesperson said the truck had a bulgarian license plate anand entered the u.k. on october 19. wereergency services there, but all the people inside the container have died. early indications suggest one of these people was a teenager. the rest are believed to be adults. a murder investigation was launched in the lorry driver, a 25-year-old man from northern ireland, was arrested on suspicion of murder and remains in police custody. amy: other people who died are chinese. -- all the people who died are chinese. back in the united states, a honduran immigrant has filed a lawsuit against the department of homeland security in connecticut, charging she was

forced into sexual slavery by an immigration agent who threatened her with deportation. the woman, identifieiein the federal lawsuit as jane doe, says she was first recruited by ice agent wilfredo rodriguez in 2006 to become an informant after her brother was arrested for entering the u.s. without documentation. she says rodriguez later forced her into sex, warning she'd be deported if she didn't obey and at one point threatening her with a gun. she says she was raped by rodriguez as often as four times a week over 17-year period, becoming pregnant three times. a spokesperson for ice declined to comment on the lawsuit but confirmed rodriguez no longer works for ice. in louisiana, relatives of construction workers who were killed when ththe half-built had rock hotel in new orleans collapsed earlier this month are suing the companies behind the disaster. the families say the 18-story building was poorly designed and unsafely built by unlicensed contractors and non-union labor. it's clap -- collapse on october

12 left three workers dead and dozens injured. meanwhile, an immigrant worker at the site who was injured after falling three stories was arrested by ice agents just two days after narrowly surviving the disaster. lawyers say delmer ramirez-palma needs surgery but has yet to receive proper medical attention as he awaits deportation to honduras in an ice jail in oakdale, louisiana. ramirez-palma's arrest came shortly after he described his injuries to a spanish language television station. california's largest energy utilities are planning a new round of power cuts that will bring blackouts to hundreds of thousands of homes and businesses over the next two days. pacific gas & electric says dry and windy conditions are forcing it to cut power to more than a half-million people in northern california in order to prevent a repeat of last year's devastating camp fire, which killed 85 people after poorly maintained pg&e transmission lines sparked the blaze. meanwhile, southern california

edison and san diego gas & electric are planning to shut off power to more than 300,000 customers after a fire in the western los angeles neighborhood of pacific palisades damaged multimillion dollar hillside homes. climate scientists say greenhouse gas emissions are making california hotter and drier, leading to bigger and more frequent fires. in pittsburgh, president trump touted his administration support for the natural gas industry wednesday my praising the growth of fracking wells in pennsylvania and defending his plan to pull the u.s. out of the paris climate accord. during his keynote address to the shale insight energy conference, trump alalso praised his administration's constrtruction of new barriers n the southern border. pres. trump: and we are building a wall on the border of new mexico and we are building a wall in colorado. we are building a beautiful wall , a big one that really works. amy: in response, colorado's governor jared polis tweeted -- "colorado doesn't border mexico.

good thing colorado now offers free full day kindergarten so our kids can learn basic geography." ahead of trump's arrival, pittsburgh police arrested 14 people as they held a sit-in protest blocking a bridge near the shale insight conference. the protest was led by jewish leaders who marched behind a banner reading, "our solidarity will defeat white nationalists." it came almost exactly one year after a gunman armed with an ar-15 assault rifle opened fire inside the tree of life synagogue in pittsburgh, killing 11 worshipers. just ahead of the shooting, the gunman posted a racist screed echoing president trump's language about an invasion of immigrants. this is dove kent of the group jewish action, who led wednesday's protest. >> we know the violence from the state that is separating immigrant families is connected to the vigilante violence that is killing jews and synagogues,

black people and churches, and muslim people on t the streets. community a jewish that our safety is dependent on the safety of all people, and that is why we are here as jews in pittsburgh one year after the most anti-semitic shooting that has ever happened in this country to say thahat our safety matters. amy: and on capitol hill, lawmakers on the house financial services committee grilled facebook ceo mark zuckerberg wednesday over the social media giant's plans to launch a cryptocurrency called libra that would reshape the world's financial system. they also blasted zuckerberg over facebook's policy allowing politicians to lie in political advertisements. michigan congressmember rashida tlaib said she feared that far-right hate groups were using facebook event pages to incite violence against muslims and other minorities, including death threats directed at her office.

this is new york congressmember alexandria ocasio-cortez questioning zuckerberg. >> one more question. in your ongoing dinner parties with far-right figures, some of who had the conspiracy theory that white supremacy is a hoax, did you discuss social media bias against conservatives and you believe there is a bias? -- sorry, ioman don't remember everything in that questioion. >> i will move on. can you explain why you named the daily caller will document it with ties to white supremacist as an official fact checker for facebook? >> sure. we don't appoint the independent fact checkers. they go through an independent organization called the independent fact checking network that has a rigorous standard for who they allow to serve as a fact checker. >> so you would say that white publicationside need a rigorous standard for fact checking?

thank you. >> i would say we are not the one assessing that standard. the international fact checking network is the one who is setting that standard. amy: to see our discscussion wih roger mcnamee, a former mentor to mark zuckerberg and early investor in facebook who has since become one of the compmpany's most vocal critics, you can go to democracynow.org. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war an peace report. i'm amy goodman. nermeen: and i'm nermeen shaikh. welcome to all of our listeneres and viewers from around the country and around the world. we begin today's show in the middle east. president trump has announced sanctions will be lifted on turkey as a ceasefire remains in place in northern syria. turkey invaded the region earlier this month after trump withdrew u.s. support for syrian kurds who had helped the u.s. fight the islamic state. while turkey has halted its military offensive, it is retaining control of syrian land

seized since october 9. on tuesday, turkey reached an agreement with russia that would force syrian kurdish f forces to retreat from a wide swath of the syrian-turkish border. under the deal, turkey and russia would carry out joint patrols of the border region. on wednesday, president trump vowed to pursue a new course in the united states. pres. trump: how many americans , in die in the middle east the midst of these ancient sectarian and tribal conflicts? after all of the precious blood and treasure america has poured into the deserts of the middle east, i am committed to pursuing a different course, one that leads to victory for america. nermeen: while president trump had vowed to remove u.s. troops from syria, he did acknowledge that some u.s. troops would stay to guard oil fields.

pres. trump: we have secured the oil, therefore, a small number of u.s. troops will remain in oilarea where they have the . and we are going to be protecting it and we will be deciding what we'e're goingng to with it in the future. amy: the syrian observatory for human rights has reported dozens of people have been killed in turkey's offensive. the united nations has said 176,6,000 people h have been displaced, including nearly 80,000 children. critical civilian infrastructure has been damaged. the turkish assault also led to a number of former isis fighters escaping from jail in northern syria. on wednesday, president trump claimed the isis fighters had been "largely recaptured." pres. trump: there were a few that got out, small number, relatively speaking, and they have been largely recaptured. amy: but on tuesday, u.s. defense secretary mark esper acknowledged more than 100 isis ghters had escaped.

>> based on the intelelligence e have, the reporting we havave of the 11,000 or so detainees that were in prisonons in northeast syria, we've only had reports of a little more than 100 that have escaped. amy: he was speaking on cnn. we are joined now by andrew bacevich, co-founder of the new think tank quincy institute for responsible statecraft. he's the author of several books, including his latest, "twilight of the american century" and "america's war for the greater middle east: a military history." he is professor emeritus of international relations and history at boston university. he is also a retired colonel and vietnam war veteran. his latest article for the spectator usa is headlined, "does trump have a better idea than endless wars?" let's begin therere. andrew b bacevich, can you respd to president trump pulling the u.s. troops away from this area of northern syria, saying he

will keep them to guard oil fields? > first of all, i think it is very -- we should avoid takaking anything that he sayays at any particular moment too serioious. clearlrly, he is all over the mp on most any issueuehat you can name. i founund his comment about takg as oil in that part of syria if we are going to decide how to dispose of it, to be striking. yet, off course, it haharkens bk to hisis campaigign statementhat -- about t the iraq war that we ought t to have taken iraq's oil isis a way of payaying for that. i just caution against taking anything he says that seriously. clearly, recurring theme e to which he returnsns or

and over a and over again, is hs determination to end what t calls endless wars. he hasas no particular strategyr , but he how to do that doesn't seem to be insistent on pursuing that objective. and here i think we begin to get to the real significance of the in ourersyy over s sia abandonment of the kurds. let's stipipulate. u.s. abandonment of ththe kurds was wrong, it was callous, it was immoral, it was not the first betrayal by the united states in our history, but the fact there were others certainly doesn't excuse this one. but apart f from those concerns about the humanitarian aspspectf this c crisis, and not for a second dry q question the sincerity of peoplee who are

worried about the, it seems to me that the controversy has gotten as big as it is in part because members of the foreign policy establishment in both parties are concerned abobout wt endless warso endd would mean for the n national security policy. which has s been based on keepig u.s. troops in hunundreds of f s around the world, maintainining the huge militaryy budgett, a pattern of interventionism. trump seems toto think that has bebeen a mistatakeparticularly n ththe middle e east. i happenen to agree wi t that critique. and i think thatat it is a a fer that he e could somehoww e engia fundamental l change i in u.s. policy is what really has the establishmenty nervous. nermeen: trump has come under

bipartisan criticism for this decision to withdraw troops from northern syria. senate majority leader mitch mcconnell was one of the many republicans to criticize trump for his decision in an opinion piece in "the washington post," writing -- "we saw human attorney disaster and a terrorist free-for-all after we abandoned in the 1990's, lang the groundwork for 9/11. we saw the islamic state flourish in iraq after president barack obama's retreat. we will see these things anew in syria and afghanistan if we abandon our partners and retreat from these conflicts before they are won." he also writes -- "as neo-isolationism rears its head on both the left and the right, we can expect to hear more talk of 'endless wars.' but rhetoric cannot change the fact that wars do not just end; wars are won or r lost."

could you u respond to that and how accurate you think an assessment of that is? but what he says about afghanistan and what is likely to happen now with u.s. wiwithdrawal? i thinknk in any discussionf isur wars, ongoing wars, it important to s set them in some broader histororical context t n senator mccoconnell will probay entertain.n. i m mean, to a very great exten, not entirely, but to a very great extent, we created the prproblems that exist today throrough our reckless use o of americican military power. people like mimitch mcconnell -- and i think otherer members of e polilitical establishment, even members of thehe mainstream meda "thenew york timeses," and washington post" have yet to reckon with the catastrophic consequences of f the u.s. ininvasion of f iraq back in 20.

and if you focus youour attentin at that starpointe -- you could choose another starpointe, but if you focus at that start point, it seems to me that it leads you to a different conclusion about the crisis that we are dealiling with right now. that is to say people like mcmcconnell wanto stay t the coururse. they w want to maintaiain the u. presenence in syria. u.s. m military presence. but ifif we look at what the u.. military presence in that t gion -- notot simply syria -- has produced ovever the course of almost two decades, t then you have to ask yourself, how is itt that we think simply staying the course is gogoing to produce any more positive results? it is a appalling what turkeyeys and thesyrian kurds casualties they have inflicted and the number of people that

hahave been displalaced. guess what? inflictedties that we and the number of people that we displaced d far outnumber what turkeyey has done ovover the lat week or so. so i i think we need to push bak against this tendency to oversimplify the circumstancnce because oversimpliing g the circumstancece does not help u s fulllly appreciatate the causesf this mess we are in. amy: we're going to go to break and come back to our discussion. we are talking to professor andrew bacevich, retired colonel, vietnam war veteran, cofounder of the quincy institute and a washington think tank, author of several books, professor emeritutus at boston

univiversity. we will be back with him in a minute. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. in a moment, we're going to be talking about the impeachment proceedings. right now we're sticking with professor andrew bacevich, profesessor emeritus at stonon universrsity who has formeded aw grououp called the quincy institute. we're going to ask about that as well. but we are talking about the latest development right in northern syria. andutin metrdogan p in sochi, russia, agreeing turkish and russian forces will now patrol the area of northehen syria, pushing out the kurds inn that region as a result of the was pulling out u.s. troops. over 175,000 kurds have been displaceced. there i is a democratatic repubn consensus attacking president action, buts sudden

i would like now to turn to democratic comps member california ro khanna who has long advocated for withdrawal of u.s. troroops from the middle east. we spoke t to him earlier this month and asked him why he was critical of trump's decision to withdraw from syria. inwe can't just get involvedd a place and then walk away and not have some moral responsibility. we have a moral responsibility who fought the kurds with us against isis, we have a moral responsibility to accept certain refugees and to help rebuild society that was ravaged by civivil war where we were involved. i call for responsible withdrawal, but now one that is oblivious to human life in syria or to american interest in syria . president trump, at the very first instance, should have notified the kurds about what our intentions were notifying our allies. amy: that is california congressmember ro khanna. professor, if you could respond

to what you have talked about, the poking of this beast come of the probe or establishment rarely -- rarely do you have mitch mcconnell, the senate majority leader, speaking out in the senate against president trump, not to mention his views being echoed by many democrats. ro khanna is one of the few who is raising concern about just condemning trump for withdrawing the troops, but he is saying it is the way he did it. can you respond to him talking about the moral imperative u.s. has now, having been there prprotecting the kurds foror a g period of time? >> i thinknk the congrgressman s the essential point that there is a need for the u united stats to lower its military profile in the greaeater middle east becaue our mililiry actions have been mightily d destructive. theyey have not advanced our interests or the cause of peace

and s security. but, yeses, that neeeeds to be e responsibly. in this presesident is incapable of actually actining in a responsible way if f that means thinkiking ahead of titime about what sereries of steps could led to a u.s. withdrawal while nimizing t the negative impact on people lilike the kurds. and sadly, of f course, not that trtrump seems inclclined to take advice from anybody, but sadly, trump is surrounded by so-called advisors who are themselves incapable e or unwililling to tk about such a deliberatate and carefully thought outut wiwithdrawal. so we have this president who is given to impulsive statements and impulsive actions, who does not have people around him who can help correct that tendency.

but what congressman, said is exactly correct, and my judgment. nermeen: president trump on wednesday also said the middle east was less safe now than it was prior to u.s. intervention in the region. pres. trump: we have spent $8 trillion on wars in the middle east never really wanting to win those wars, but after all that money was spent and all those lives lost, the young men and women gravely wounded, so many, the middle east is less safe, less stable, and less secure than before these conflicts began. nermeen: that is trump speaking wewednesday. i wowould likike to go back nowo the democratic presidential debate earlier this month. elizabeth warren said u.s. troops should withdraw from the middle east, but her campaign later issued a statement saying

she meant to say not the middle east, but syria. this is what warren said during the debate. >> i think we ought to get out of the middle east. i don't think we should have troops in the middle east. but we have to do it the right way, the smart way. what this president has done is he has sucked up to dictators, he has made impululsive decisios that often his own team doesn't understand, he has cut and run on our allies, and he has enriched himself at the expense of the united states of america. in syria come he has created a bigger than ever humanitararian crisis. he has helped isis get another foothold, a new lease on life. nermeen: that is senator elizabeth warren speaking earlier this month at the democratic presidential debate. professor, could you respond to that? and in particular, the worn campaign saying she meant syria

and not the middle east afteter she clearly said during the debatete the u.s. should withdrw frfrom the middle east?? >> i r regret the campaigngn fet calleded upon to correct herer. this is what she actually meant to say. it seeeems to me what she said s correct.t. that is to say, we need to get out t the right way and smart w. that is to say there needs to be a plan, there needs to be a series of steteps, there needs o be an assessment of risk, there needs to b be some k kind of a backstop. quite frankly, i think she's probably smart enough in my dealings w with her that she wod be able toto put together, with her advisors, thahat smart plan. obligeder campaignn felt to walk back that statement is beyond me. amy: and you are speaking to us from her district, from her state, from massachusetts, one of her constituents. she was responding to tulsi

gabbard. i would like to turn to her political rival democratic presidential h hopeful hawaii commerce member tulsi gabbard speaking also at the debate. >> donald trump has the blood of her kurds on her hands, but so do many of the politicians in our country from both parties who have supported this ongoing regime change war in syria that started in 2011, along with many of the mainstream media who have been championing and cheerleading this regime change war. as president, i will end these regime change wars by doing two things. ending the draconian sanctions that are modern-day seizures the likes of which we are sing saudi arabia wage against yemen that have caused tens of thousands of still billions to die and starve, and i would make sure that we stop supporting terrorists like al qaeda in syria who have been the ground force in this ongoing regime change war. amy: that is tulsi gabbard,

former secretary of state hillary clinton has accused the 2020 democratic presidential candidate, gabbarard, being groomed by russia to run as a third-party candidate. again, without offering any evidence. in response, gabbard said, "you, the queen of warmongers, embodiment of corruption, and personification of the rot that has sickened the democratic party for so long, have finally come out from behind the curtain." addressingng hillary clinton. can you talkch, about this brewing battle right nonow? >> i i don't wantnt to get in te smears s being flung back and forth, and i understand c coness womann gabbarard is inn summer r specsa radioactive figure thehese days, she is s makingmee

essentitial point. to oust the most coveted president we've ever had. therefore, there is a ststrong tendency to charge trump with having screwed everything up. and what tululsi gabbard is pointing o out -- and it is an important, legitimate point -- is the mess that is the middle east today is a producuct of actions caused by several administrations from oath parties. -- both parties. this is not t a situation that trump c created indeed, it is a sisituation that trumpmp inheri. inhnherited. in his bumbling g way, he seemso haveve a wish to extricate the united states from this mess -- although, as i said previously, he actually hahas no idea how to do that in a meaningful way. but i thinink it is important fr

us to not t lose sigight of thtt that the c catastrophic t trajey of u.s. foreign policy in the middle east is the responsibility of both parties anand several administrations. if we can'tt acknowlededge that history, then it seems to me we're not goingng to be able too make the necessary corrects. nermeen: i want to ask about the situation of afghanistan. when trump took office, there were about 8400 troops in afghanistan. undeder his administration, that number has risen to about 14,000. "the new york times" hasas reported the u.s. has been quietly withdrawing some troops from country. on monday, the top american commander in afghanistan said about 2000 u.s. troops have left afghanistan over the last year. there are still between 12,000 and 13,000 u.s. troops stationed in afghanistan. meanwhile, the united nations has said civilian casualties have reached a new high in the country. a record 4300 civilians were

injured or killed in afghanistan between july and september. these are the highest figures since the u.n. began counting in 2009. this comes as the u.s. is intensifying its air war. last month, u.s. air force aircraft dropped 948 missiles and bombs, more than in any month in five years. professor, could you comment on that? and how is it if trump is ing to in the war, has increased the t troops in afghanistan? >> i iwe are intntending to tryo find consistencycy in the trump administration, , we're going to look for a long,g, longg timime. and there clearly is a gap between the rhetoric of endless war, endnding endless wars, and the reality of what the united states military has been doing.

but what really y matters herert seems to me, is to acknowledgege ththat the u.s. military effortn afghanisistan going on for 18 years now has in fact failed. remember, we launch this as operation enduring freedom. the name has been changed since, but operation enduduring freedo. we entntered afghanistan with se coalalition partnerers intent on creating a statable, modern, democratic statete, recognize human righghts. we have had the n numbers of troops on the ground over the coururse of time has varied, but of an downwn and gone baback up. the fact of the matter is, we have failed in afghanistan. seems to me about thehe politicalllly appropriate and ao the moral course of actionn is o acknowledge ththat failure and again, t to undndertake a

deliberate, smart withdrawal from this war. there has been peace negotiations underway with the taliban for some pereriod of ti. there wawas a moment when it appeared the trump administratition was fairly cloe to closising a deal l with the taliban. i am not a telell apologist. i reregret the fact we may well end up r regaining c control oft country, but i don't believe the united states or anybody else is in a position to dictate the future of afghanistan. we arere not the firirst empmpio haveve imagined we could do that and you have come up shohort. andd finallyly, again, the f fae in afghanistanan is p partly t's failure, but it is a also a failure of barack obama and george w. bush and the various people who advised them m in the vavarious generals s who have bn

assigned responsibility for waging this war -- none of whom have been able to accomplish their assigned mission. amy: professor, you're going to stay with us for our impeachment discussion. i briefly, we identified you as the head of a new organization, the quincy institute for responsible statecraft. is it accurate to say this will be a new antiwar think tank? >> yes. i'm not sure why washingtoton needs another r think tank, bute think it cann -- we think there is a need toto introduce a difffferent perspective in ththe debate over u.s. national security policy. we are antiwar. we are not anti-military we are not isolation. dialogue,favor of creativeve diplomacy, , try to e problelems and advdvance the cae ofof peace. of the foreign policy establishment has done for us over the p past 30, 40 years, hs done n nothing to adadvance the

caususe of peaeace. we think the united states is the most powerful country in the world, can do better. amy: andrew bacevich, we want you to stay with us. back, we go to capitol hill were republican lawmakers stormed into a secure room to disisrupt the impeachmet proceedings of p presidentnt tr. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy:y: this is democracycy now!, i'm amy gogoodman with nermemeen shaikh. nermeen: republican lawmakers stormed a closed hearing room wednesday, disrupting the house impeachment investigation into president donald trump and delaying a pentagon official's testimony. in an extraordinary chain of events, dozens of republican congressmembers pushed into a secure hearing room as laura cooper, the u.s. defense official who oversees ukraine and russia matters, was due to testify. a five hour stand-off ensued. this is kansas republican representative roger marshall being questioned by reporters. maybe 15, 20 --

republicans, maybe 30 of us, the and.lettuce they walked out. they're not going to let us hear anything. this whole thing is a sham. now we're just in there yelling and screaming at each other. if this is not open and transparent, then the american public and see what is going on. we want this to be transparent. >> what did chairman schiff say? >> nothing. he does not have the guts to us. he left. he got up and left. he does not have the guts to tell us why we can't come in the room, what he doesn't want this to be transparent. this is the biggest farce i've ever seen in my life. nermeen: laura cooper was finally able to testify once the protest ended. california democrat eric swalwell addressed wednesday's dramatic events. >> the tactics are in an effort to delay the inevitable.

they are a response to just damaging and pulverizing testimony yesterday from a --rageous abbasid or ambassador bill taylor. they will not stop us from pursuing the truth. amy: congressmember swalwell was referring to tuesday's explosive testimony by william taylor, the top u.s. diplomat in ukraine. taylor told congressional lawmakers that the trump administration held up $391 million in aid to ukraine for the purpose of pushing ukraine to incriminate trump's political rivals, particularly joe biden. in taylor's opening statement, which has been made public, he laid out his interactions with gordon sondland, the u.s. ambassador to the european union and a wealthy oregon hotel magnate who received the ambassadorship after donating $1 million to trump's inauguration. taylor says ambassador sondland told him that everything, including security assistance,

was s dependent on ukrainianan president volodymyr zelensky announcing an investigation into burisma, the gas company where joe biden's son, hunter, was a board member. taylor's testimony offers the most damming evidence so far in the ongoing impeachment inquiry. for more, we're joined by mitch jeserich, host of letters & politics heard on kpfa and throughout pacifica radio, and a capitol hill correspondent. still with us, andrew bacevich, cofounder of the quincy institute, the n new washington think tank who recently wrote a piece. mitch, you are on capitol hill. talk about the latest in the impeachment inquiry, the takeover of this room yesterday by this group of republican, mainly men, and the significance of ill taylor's testimony. >> let's begin with what happened yesterday at the skiff

room, and that stands for sensitive compartment information facility. it is just as it sounds, very secured roooom where briefings behind closed doors, usually highly classified information occurs, true story, i was even told as i was down there outside the room not e even to point myy microphone in the direction of the doors. as it was sound, highly secured impenetrable room that republicans, about 40 of them, who weren't supposed to really go in there, were able to penetrate. as you said in the introduction, ended up delaying the testimony of laura cooper of the pentagon for about five hours. after about five hours, laura cooper was able to give her deposition behind closed doors. it only lasted about three hours. one of the shorter depositions that have occurred so far. they wanted to talk to laura cooper about what she knew from the pentagon's angle concerning

the withholding of the $391 million of military aid to ukraine in exchange for these investigations that rudy giuliani was pushing ukraine to do in order to get a meeting with president trump. so this whole process occurred, was pretty extraordininary -- it realally was an acact of civil disobedienence by republicans. i i covered in the years pass congress on a day-to-day basis. i've never seen anything l like that happen. if you would have told me something would happen yesterday -- if you would've told me that 10 years ago that would happen on the hill, especially by republicans, i would never have believeded it. amy: talked about the significance of bill taylor's testimony, the top u.s. diplomat, the man who was brought -- talk about who he is. he did not even want to be the top dipiplomat in ukraine, but e trump administration convinced him to do it. >> mike pompeo convinced him to

do it.t. you're are absolutely correct about that. william tataylor is a long time for diplomat. he worked under different administrations in the past, very much part of u.s. foreign policy for many years. insay he led the embassy ukraine. not that he was the ambassador. that is significant because he was appointed on an interim basis to replace maria, who was the investor to ukraine. she was recalled by donald trump. this is important because she was very critical of ukrainian prosecutor that giuliani and trump wanted to investigate both the bidens as well as this theory that ukraine was actually behind the theft of the dnc emails. it has been reported that marie yovanovitch had a very strange relationshipip with this prosecutor.. she accused him of corruption and he did not like her whatsoever.

the trump administration had maria not a veg recalled. she was replaced by william taylor. william taylor is important because you will remember a couple of weeks ago we got the transcripts of text messages taylor,between william gordon sondland, and kurt volker about trying to create a meeting between -- a public meeting between ukrainian president zelensky and donald trump. it is william taylor, you'll recall in these text messages, that was raising the alarm. "are we withholding $391 million to force these investigations for political gain for the president?" he is the one that was raising the alarm. we had those text messages. what he did on tuesday at the deposition is he said -- he filled in some of the other blanks of what happened with actual phone calls that occurred and meetings that occurred.

he painted a picture that it was very much a quid pro quo and not just for the military aid and withust for the meeting donald trump. he painted the picture that the entire relationship with ukraine was on the line over these investigations. and that is really significant because we know ukraine is basically -- perhaps in a low level, civil war, ever since 2014 in which the united s stats is o on one side and obviously, russia is on the other side. and so to put -- to suggest in any way the entire relationship with ukraine, with the current government, could be on the line if these investigations did n nt happen, seems to be pretty significant. amy: gordon sosondland. who he is, this oregon hotel magnate and retail developer -- real estate developer who becomes the european u.s.

ambassador to the european union. tatalked about his role in all f this and his testimony. >> gordon sondland plays an important role because -- and this is something that william taylor also said on tuesday. there became two tracts of foreign policy concerning ukraine within t the administstration. one, the offfficial whehen it wt through the state department that went through people like william taylor and other diplomats. anotherr one that was spearheadd by rudy giuliani and also gordon sondland. gordon sondland was the e one wo started coming in and pushing the conditions in o order to hae a meetingng -- a publicic meetig between donald trump and ukrainian president zelensky that that would be condition on these two investigations. not just the investigations occurring, but they wanted zelensky publicly to say there would be an investigation both into the bidens as well as into

the theft of the dnc emails. so gordon sondland, as you indicated, the ambassador of the , became- european union the point person for the president. he was asked by other diplomats, who are you to tell us to do anything? he said, well, it is coming straight from the president. important to note, gordon sondland is the ambassador of the european union. ukraine is not a member of the european union. nermeen: i want to bring professor andrew bacevich back into the discussion. professor, if you could comment on what you think this impeachment inquiry is about? you wrote a piece recently headlined "the real cover-up." what is the real cover-up? >> first, ifif i could jusust vy taylory say that bibill turnrns outcomome he is a west t clclassmate of m mine. i knowow him to be a a p personf

impeccablele characterer, , ande to telll youou how proud it maks has fl that myy clalassmate stood u up and told the truth at this important juncture of our history. i'm just s sort of sittingng hee bubusting mymy buttonsns and admiration of him. but what is really goining on, s some level, of course, what isis going onon is this pattern of misconduct by trump and the people around him. he is the worst president in our history, the sooner he leaves office thehe better. if yououoved our country, he was of the resign ---- if he loved r country, he was of t the resign, gogo to mar-a-a-lago anand never return. but he won't do that. the poinint of thehe piece y you referred t to is, it is impmport to acknowledge the extent there corruptionsources of

that comprpromise ouour democra. and one of them is the foforeign money. and d the peace you u alluded ti talk abouthehe millionss of dollars ththat the government tf saudi arabia spends on an annual basis trying toto influence peoe inin washingngton, d.c.. contemptible.e. i hope if we are in some vague way embarked upon an efforort to clcleanse our politicics, that e will take a lolook at the influence of foreign money in our politics on a daily basis. what aboutprofessor, the criticism that has been made that this impeachment inquiry isn't really about ukraine but it is really about, as another professor has said, that trump's rise success in beating quinto within the appalling rules of the american game, that is really what has bebeen the affront." >> i think the professor is

exactly right. there are multiple layers of meaning here. it is s difficult t i think fors to appppreciate what thehey ared how they interact. but the p professoror's point, i agree wiwith that, is that thehe election of f donald trump symbolized a rejection of what the professor refers t to as sentra schism. anand i take that word in this context to mean n the underlylyg bipapartisan view of the republicans and the dememocrats that expresses itself in many ways -- it exexpresses itself in supporort of corpoporate capita. supportsses i itself in for a quasi-imperialistic foreign policy, expresses itself in militarism. -- not trumppction

himself, but his election exposed the extent to which many millions of our fellow citizenes have rejected d that bipartisan centrism. in thiss interests, and d both parties, are determid to restore themselves to theieir usual plalace in amamerican pols . that, too, is one of the things going on. to: mitch jeserich, i want go back to you. the november discussion now, the possibility that the hearings will become open in november, what does that mean? what is next? clubs what is happening right now are the depositions. the depositions are these three committees that are working on this trying to get the testimony of the people coming and testify. apparently, what's the process is over, it will be referred to the house judiciary committee and d it will be the house judiciarary committee that will take of the articles of

impeachment. will there be other hearings from these committees during the depositions? we will have to see. you can that it will become more public once against to the house judiciary committee for of amy: mitch jeserich of kpfa