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interrogation techniques, suggestions for military interrogatoriers had migrated through official channels. these were techniques that america's enemies had used against us in wars past that the u.s. military cataloged and studied to teach american troops how to survive torture. >> i thought you can't do this. >> malcolm nance in the naval intelligence community and was a master instructor at s.e.r.e., the military's survival evasion resistance and escape school. >> we teach how to properly behave in captivity and how to attempt escapes. >> nance travelled the world researching foreign interrogation tactics to better prepare u.s. troops for captivity. >> when i got my orders do to go to s.e.r.e. >> i wasn't to cambodia and wanted to see the prison in phnom penh and found a killing

machine. this was a prison whose sole function was to document you coming in, document your torture, document your confession and document your execution. it was almost like a compendium of everything that we could do bad to you. it was the first time i ever saw a water board. the entire function was to get you to confess that you worked for the cia, that you worked against the khmer rouge government, and that was necessary of the your death. whether you told the truth, whether you told a lie, it didn't matter. and i got to this school and found that we had this enormous curriculum which said exactly the same thing, that torture has nothing to do whether you're establishing your guilt or your innocence at all. it's just a methodology of getting you to comply. and once you have complied, they'll make you sign a confession. >> but the confession that you're signing is not necessarily intelligence? >> oh, this is not intelligence. it has nothing to do with intelligence. >> but in 2005, malcolm nance learns his own government had been gathering the same information on harsh techniques and torture, not to learn how to

survive those techniques burk to learn how to use some of them itself. i want to show you a document from guantanamo that was declassified after the fact. >> guidelines for employing s.e.r.e. techniques during detainee interrogations. the interrogation tactics used at military s.e.r.e. schools are appropriate. these tactics and techniques are used at the. . r.e. schools to break detainies. the techniques can be used to break detainees during interrogations. >> what is your reaction to 245? >> that is horrific. these are written in blood. these are techniques that u.s. service members died for. every technique we used, someone died for. >> foreign torture tactics redesigned and redirected. >> they decided that they would mimic our enemies' techniques. >> but the new enhanced interrogation program did have its own advocates. richard engel sat down with john

rizzo, the cia's former top lawyer when enhanced interrogation techniques were introduced. this is john rizzo's first on camera. >> your name came up many times as someone who legalized torture, legalized enhanced interrogation. what is your opinion on the enhanced interrogation. did it work? >> i don't think there is any dispute, any reasonable dispute that it yielded an immense amount of reliable, actionable, as you see, intelligence. the cia program was directed at the highest levels of the al qaeda leadership, the most ruthless, the most psychopathic, the toughest, and the most knowledgeable. >> did you feel that you were being asked to legalize torture? >> no. i think i was asked the way i've been asked throughout my career for my clients at cia. here are some proposed activities that we think are essential to elicit the information we need from these

high-level al qaeda figures who we believe are stonewalling us about a possible new and eminent attack on the homeland. these legal? >> how many people knew that these practices were going on? >> the techniques were authorized, were vetted through the most senior levels of the u.s. national security community. secretaries of state and defense, the attorney general and of course the vice president and the president. >> they knew. the vice president and president. >> yes. they knew about the program. >> in fact, the bush administration takes the position that the exquisite torture techniques of 2 the khmer rouge and the north koreans are not torture when they're done by americans after 9/11, specifically because americans studied these techniques and were trained in how to survive them. vice president dick cheney defends the use of water boarding in an interview on fox

news channel. >> waterboarding and all of the other techniques that were used are techniques that we used training our own people. this is stuff we've done for years with our own military personnel. >> in 1947, the united states charged a japanese officer, yukio asano with work crimes for waterboarding an american. >> 15 years of hard labor. when this was used against americans in world war ii. >> military commission in 2006 retroactively indemnifies anyone caught using torture on and a half of the u.s. government. in 2009, an internal probe by the justice department concludes that bush administration lawyers committed serious lapses in judgment in writing memos that authorized harsh interrogation techniques, but it recommends that they not be prosecuted. president bush's successor, president obama instructs the justice department to decide whether the bush lawyers should face charges. they don't. the obama administration pledges

that interrogators themselves will be protected and not prosecuted for doing what the bush lawyers argued was legal. ultimately it is the obama administration that shuts down the cia interrogation program. but that also makes the decision to not prosecute. the decision not to prosecute policymakers after 9/11 for what america had previously charged as war crimes is living precedent, legally and morally and politically. >> to call this a program of torture is to libel the dedicated professionals who have saved american lives and to cast terrorists and murderers as innocent victims. >> on fox news channel administration officials and republican presidential candidates voice their support for these tactics. >> and enhanced interrogation techniques have to be used. >> i would do certainly water board. i don't believe that that is quote, torture. >> people are equating water boarding with torture. and i think that's a mistake. >> by 2006 the cia prohibits

the use of waterboarding, and under new leadership, the department of defense impose husband in measures to address abuse in u.s. prisons. but what merge once pledged to prosecute in every instance now becomes a political provlg ground. america has crossed into territory we have never before tried to justified leaves its marks. >> whether or not people at a high level people in a command position are prosecuted for torture if that ever happens do you think that people operating at your level in the military should have been held more accountable? do you think there should have been more widespread prosecutions? >> i do think there should have been more widespread prosecutions from the bottom level all the way up to the top. i fully expected to be prosecuted. it never happened because i think they didn't want to follow that trail and get the higher-ups involved. >> do you still think you should have been? >> yes. >> a response to his allegations by the u.s. military reads in

part, dod personnel working in detention facilities operate under an extraordinarily high level of scrutiny and they consistently provide the most humane and safe care in custody of individuals under their control. the suggestion that dod personnel, the overwhelming majority of whom serve honorably were or are engaged in systematic torture of detainees simply does not withstand credible scrutiny. it's sbefn years since you've been home from iraq. does it still weigh on you? >> certainly it still weighs on me yeah. >> are you excited you decided to talk about what you did in iraq? >> people have asked me about that. i'm not sure it was good thing for me to talk about it for my own mental health. coming up -- >> pick up a lit cigarette a mile away. >> one of the most effective counterterrorism forces in the world is a local police department.

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once again, rachel maddow and richard engel. >> in many ways, new york city has always been the center of the war on terror. the 9/11 attacks washington as well. but new york was always the main focus. the twin towers went down here. the nypd the new york city police department, reacted in exceptional ways, not only on that day, which has been widely documented and celebrated, but since then. and the new york city police department, which is a giant force, i mean, it's the size of really army divisions, isn't just a police force anymore. it has invested in counterterrorism in ways that most people have no idea. most new yorkers are not aware of the extensive security and counterterrorism measures that are taking place in this city. and for the last several years, we've been given access to what new york has done in the name of security. i think a lot of people will be surprised at how extensive it

really is. >> the fact that this is such an undertold story is itself so politically important and how key to how america has changed since 9/11. the difference between whoa we have changed about the way we governor and police ourselves, and how much public debate there is about it. >> it's just a few hours until 2009 on one of those biting cold new york new year's eves. the crowds are waiting for the ball to drop at midnight, a tradition seen by about a billion people worldwide. but what hardly anyone notices are the snipers overlooking times square, with high-powered rifles ready to shoot terrorists or the police with backpack radiation detectors that will set off an alarm if they pick up traces of a dirty bomb. sensors that sniff the air for chemical weapons, or armored vehicles positioned to stop a commando-style raid.

>> okay, guys, happy new year. >> since 9/11 the new york police department, the nypd, has transformed into what may be the most elaborate, secretive and most effective local counterterrorism force in the world. >> you have to be keenly aware that an event like this is a major terrorist target. >> absolutely. and, you know, we created -- >> it's run by police commissioner ray kelly a former beat cop and marine. >> police officer news think about terrorists. they know it's one of their core functions. this wasn't the case even immediately after september 11th. >> we followed new york city's counterterrorism and intelligence divisions for more than two years as they monitor the waterways 468 subway stations, and manhattan's iconic skyline. >> welcome aboard. >> at floyd bennet field once used by amelia earhart and

charles lindburg, the nypd operates a special air unit. well are taken up by detective christos svelli. >> there is the harbor there as one of our security checks. >> the cameras can see a lot more than the statue of liberty. they can read license plates see in infrared, and take thermal images so precise, they can pick out a single squirrel in central park. >> this camera can pick up a heat -- actually a lit cigarette about a mile away. >> most new yorkers and tourists have no idea they're being watched on rooftops or on the observation deck of the empire state building. >> it looks pretty crowded. how far away are we from that? >> probably about a mile and a half. >> that's from a mile and a half out. >> that's correct. >> and i can see what she is wearing, the red scarf, the red jacket, someone with a hat. and i bet you not a single person on that observation took a notice.

>> privacy guidelines don't allow the cops to look into individual apartments. but with the technology they have, it is possible. but as good as it is the view from above isn't nearly enough. manhattan home to a million and a half people is after all an island. much of its sensitive infrastructure is on the water, including possible targets like the giant ventilation shafts that circulates air in the tunnels. the united nations, the brooklyn bridge, and a con edison power plant. >> it's a scary thought every day to go through and come up with how we're going to protect these critical infrastructures. >> the biggest challenge could be monitoring all of the bridges and piers. each one needs to be physically inspected by scuba teams. >> we do it every single day, every day of the year we're down there looking for any kind of irregularity. >> the waters around new york are polluted and cold.

the divers wear vulcanized rubber suits, gloves, and full face masks. >> you don't want any of the water to get in any of the orifices in your face, especially nose, mouth, eyes and ears. >> you don't even want this water in your ears? >> you don't. >> put this on? >> there is also a strong current that stirs up the bottom. >> feel good? >> yeah, i feel good. >> it's so brown so murky, the divers almost blindly have to pat the bottom, feel the underwater pier abutment. it's a training exercise to search for explosives. it's very slow work. but eventually they do find this limpet mine. it's just a training tool. but it would have been powerful enough to destroy the pier. searching the harbor isn't exactly pleasant. with a sewage plant next door,

the water here is contaminated. >> they have to shower me off? >> you have to be decontaminated now. don't touch your face or eat anything. >> lovely new york water. >> the nypd a police force that after 9/11 became a powerful -- some say intrusive counterterrorism division. coming up, the nypd keeps a close eye on the streets of new york city. >> if i put on a black overcoat and walked around for half an hour do you think in three days you would be able to find me? >> we would definitely be able to find you.

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ask your doctor about symbicort. i got my first prescription free. call or click to learn more. [ male announcer ] if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. in 1993, the world trade center was attacked. the federal government, including the fbi, took the lead in the investigation. the 1993 organizers were caught and put in jail. the bombers weren't particularly smart. they went back to collect the deposit on a rented van they

turned into a bomb. but in 2001 the world trade center, the same buildings, were attacked again. ray kelly watched the twin towers go down and decided that new york had no choice but to take care of itself. >> it became obvious that we couldn't rely solely on the federal government to protect this city. >> kelly decided to change the nypd's focus from only fighting crime to counterterrorism and intelligence. >> we want to be first preventers, we have to stop something, use every effort that we can to prevent another attack here. and that's what intelligence gives you. >> for that intelligence capacity kelly hired david cohn. cohen had 35 years experience at the cia running clandestine operations and serving as the cia's new york station chief.

>> i think i brought experience in getting things done. in implementing programs. >> cohen created what some people call new york's secret cia. >> david among other things, is a terrific recruiter. >> he used to recruit spies in the united states. that was his job. >> he did. that's true. >> why did you reach out to someone with such experience in the intelligence community? why not a -- someone else with a law enforcement background? >> we had to do things differently. we had to get out of the law enforcement box, so to speak. >> out of the law enforcement box and out of new york. the nypd, which once couldn't even operate in new jersey, embedded detectives into 11 international law enforcement agencies from london to tel aviv to singapore. >> going overseas was number one. we want to establish an nypd presence so that the new york city question is never ignored.

>> not ignoring the new york city question meant that when terrorists took over mumbai for three days in 2008 the nypd deployed its own agents to india. >> good morning in new york. >> they briefed counterterrorism officers back in new york city. >> in many ways the city of mumbai bears striking similarities to new york. >> the attack in india had a direct impact on new york. police told new york hotel managers if a guest requests a particular room on a high floor, or doesn't let the maid in for days, the nypd wants to know. in mumbai, indian police were outgunned by terrorists. so new york put military-style cops on the transport system. they're armed, almost like combat troops. >> a bit intimidating to people? i guess it is. but i'm here to put their mind at ease. >> the special operations

division practices assault tactics on old subway cars. they're preparing for a mumbai scenario when terrorists attacked in small units. but force doesn't work unless you know where to focus it. this $100 million command center in lower manhattan monitors more than 1700 cameras installed after 9/11. they're programmed with ed withmed with algorithms so they can automatically detect patterns. if someone leaves a bag in front of a key building or a car circles a block repeatedly the cameras here set off an alarm. the images can also be reviewed with a specificity that might shock new yorkers who like to think they're anonymous in the big city. we were shown the facility when it first became operational in 2008 by then deputy commissioner for counterterrorism. >> if i put on a black overcoat

and walked around for half an hour do you think in three days you would be able to find me? >> we would definitely be able to find you. >> the data is stored on huge computer hard drives for 30 days, then police say erased in line with privacy guidelines. >> you think this is overly intrusive into new yorkers' lives? >> no. and this is all public visual data. we're not prying into anyone's private domain when we do this. this is what is happening on the street. >> critics do not agree. new york defense attorney josh draytel handles civil liberties cases. he says the nypd collects too much private information. you think new yorkers should be more aware of how much is being done in the name of security? >> i think so because it never stops. the history of surveillance never stops with the principle object of the surveillance. one of the reasons why people say well i don't mind, because they're just going after muslims and islamic terrorists because they don't identify with them.

>> the nypd says it has stopped 12 major plots against new york since 9/11. but why talk about new york's extensive security programs? two reasons we were told to reassure the public and to let would-be terrorists know new york is no longer an easy target. but new york still keeps many secrets in its arsenal, like this vehicle. it hunts for what may be the nypd's biggest fear, the dirty bomb. >> it can be a small device. >> kit be a small device absolutely. it could be something in a backpack, or something in a small box. just put the radioactive material with it, now you've got a dirty bomb. >> the vehicle is a mobile radiation detector. it's precise enough to pick out a single person who had a medical test that used radiation. >> he is walking. >> the stress test for the heart the can last a couple weeks. >> a couple of weeks?

>> a couple weeks we can still detect it. >> the cops often disguise this vehicle, passing it off as a delivery truck or a moving van. >> kit be anything, laundry service, linen service food service. >> also hidden in plain sight is a state-of-the-art office in an unmarked building outside of manhattan. the division based here monitors terrorist activity around the world. a wall here is lined with a somber reminder, comrades who perished on 9/11. the police call it their hall of fame. >> so many of our officers who work here responded on september 11th. they were at the scene. they went to the funerals. they know the family. these are their friends. >> this facility also served a grim but essential purpose. if new york were attacked or destroyed, this would become the city's offsite control room. it's effectively a doomsday center to run new york should the worst happen.

back in times square on new year's eve 2008, mayor michael bloomberg is the first to admit new york city doesn't just have a municipal police force anymore. how do you respond to critics who say you brought in a former chief representative at the cia. >> absolutely. >> a former marine in commissioner kelly. >> right. >> and you turned your police force into an intelligence-gathering organization. >> that's exactly the plan. that's what we're trying to do. it is a paramilitary organization. it is run like a paramilitary organization. it's not a democracy within that organization. i am where the democracy interacts with the paramilitary organization. i'm the elected official. and then their job is to keep us safe. >> new york's security has profoundly changed since 9/11. critics say it's too intrusive. the nypd says it's an effective and discreet program. many security experts say it's a far better way of stopping

terrorism than sending tens of thousands of american troops to occupy foreign countries. it's better, the police say, to protect the city you're in. coming up the race to keep loose nuclear material out of the hands of rrit's not hard to build that bomb? >> no. copd makes it hard to breathe, so i wasn't playing much of a role in my own life but with advair, i'm breathing better so now i can take the lead on a science adventure. advair is clinically proven to help significantly improve lung

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hi everybody. i'm thomas roberts. here is what is happening. on the tenth anniversary of 9/11, family members at ground zero got their first look at the new memorial during its dedication today at the world trade center. this site will open to the public for the first time tomorrow. in washington, d.c., president obama laid a wreath for those killed during the attack on the pentagon. that after earlier in the day visiting the new memorial in shanksville, p.a., where the fourth and final plane crashed. now we'll send you back to our coverage of "day of destruction."

in terms of terrorism as a tactic, terrorism is asymmetrical warfare that the only existential threat that can be posed really by terrorism is that a small terrorist operation provokes their target into an existential crisis of its own making. >> you mean if a small group prompts us to wildly overreact and swing ourselves into exhaustion, which we have basically done. >> which we have in some ways done. that's the dynamic that explains why terrorists do what they do tactically why that terror tactic exists. >> which by the way associates of bin laden said he wanted to do. he wanted us to get involved in all of these costly foreign wars in order to break us. >> i feel like america has started to grasp that dynamic. if that was the goal, that the risk is a self-imposed existential crisis. the thing that i think is the exemption to that dynamic is the threat of nuclear terrorism.

>> that's when a small group can really make a difference. a small group of people, maybe one person is able to carry out a nuclear attack or maybe even a dirty bomb attack, the results would be serious. >> february 2010, an elite team of american scientists and engineers assembled secretly in the nation of chile in south america. their mission is to secure shield and transport safely 40 pounds of radioactive highly enriched uranium enough uranium to devastate a u.s. city in a nuclear bomb blast. enough uranium to contaminate a huge area in a dirty bomb. this would be a million dollar black market prize for terrorists. the americans have come in secret to keep that prize off the black market, to bring to it the u.s., to lock it down. everything goes according to planned specially designed casks lined with eight inches of lead and steel will hold the nuclear material after it is carefully

removed from its storage pools. but then disaster strikes. chile is rocked by an 8.8 magnitude earthquake, the largest quake anywhere in the world in 50 years. the port where the caps were to shifted from land to sea is destroyed by the quake and by the tsunami that follows. in the chaos after the disaster and still in secret, u.s. and chilean officials scramble for a plan b. they shoes another port 50 miles north of their original location. so it's a 50-mile overland trip, a tense dark of night uranium convoy under armed guard through an earthquake-ravaged countryside. the mission in chile is hair-raising, but it works. the uranium arrives safely in the united states. it's the latest american success in a project that started nearly a decade earlier on the other side of the world. in august 2001, weeks before 9/11 osama bin laden and

his al qaeda deputy ayman al zawahiri meet around a campfire in kandahar, afghanistan, with one of pakistan's top nuclear scientist. they discuss al qaeda's aspirations to build a nuclear bomb. >> the two apparently met, we referred to as the fireside chat, or had a dinner and talked about al qaeda's interest in nuclear bombs, where the al qaeda leader apparently was trying to gain some basic sense of what it would take. >> rolf larson. >> how hard this was and how difficult this was for pakistan. bin laden said if i had the material, then how i do build it? >> the pakistani scientist later confirms to u.s. officials that the meeting took place, and that he gave al qaeda leaders a pencil drawing of a crude nuclear bomb design. just one month after that meeting in kandahar, september 11th, 2001.

as the united states reels from the attacks those who know about that meeting at that kandahar campfire reel over what may be about to come next. overnight, the most important question for the united states government becomes how far along is al qaeda in its pursuit of a nuclear bomb, and how can the united states stop them from assembling one. >> that's a piece of cake if you have enough material. if you look at the hiroshima bomb 50 milligrams. the oklahoma city bombing was two tons. if you go back and look at the devastation of a two-ton bomb, think of 13,000 tons versus two tons. it's inconceivable, even if you look at the hiroshima pictures. it's inconceive whabl a bomb that size can do and if you have the material, it's not hard to do? >> no. >> he had been planning on a new posting in beijing. but after 9/11, just after 9/11 he is drafted personally by cia director george tenet to lead a

new effort instead. >> that is one of my most vivid memories. he said to me we're behind the 8 ball. and the reason he said that, which i didn't know why what he meant at that precise moment is we had information about this meeting with the pakistan scientist and bin laden before 9/11. >> november 2001. mill let larson and tenet at the direction of president george bush are dispatched to pakistan to confront pakistan's president pervez musharraf about the fireside chat that turned up in u.s. intelligence reports the possibility that pakistani nuclear scientists are assisting al qaeda in pursuing a nuclear bomb. >> president musharraf's initial reaction was men in caves can't do this incredulity, which we expected. it's the same incredulity we all felt. >> tenet and larson implore president musharraf to inventory

all nuclear material. musharraf downplays the threat of that what he calls men in caves might ever try to acquire such weapons. the extremists that are in pakistan, pakistani taliban, al qaeda, kashmiri groups, you name it. do you think the extremists in pakistan want to acquire nuclear weapons, or at least nuclear materials? >> maybe. maybe they would be happy with it maybe. >> you think they are trying actively? >> i don't think so. i don't think they are trying actively to get to our nuclear assets. we have no such intelligence never. we haven't had such intelligence at all. >> before 9/11, pakistan is one of only three countries in the world that recognizes the taliban as the legitimate government in afghanistan. after 9/11, under pressure pakistan nominally abandons them. they allay themselves uneasily with the united states instead, even as pakistan's military and intelligence service continue to themselves be linked to extremists.

and even as public opinion shows pakistan to be the most anti-american country on earth. >> after 9/11, u.s. aid starts to flow into pakistan by the billions. pakistan remains impoverished and unstable and extremist. but as u.s. aid increases, pakistan pours money into its nuclear program. this new facility 140 miles from the capital will host two of the largest flute tone yum production reactors in the world. the plant is not designed to make electricity, which pakistan desperately needs. this plant isn't even hooked up to the nation's electrical grid. this facility makes plutonium specifically for nuclear bombs. pakistan was nuclear-armed before 9/11 before taliban and al qaeda leaders fled from the u.s. war in afghanistan to take refuge there. since 9/11 pakistan has built up its nuclear weapons program bigger and faster than any other

country in the world. when you find out about things like pakistani taliban attacks on the vulnerability of state institution, including possibly its military and police services, do you worry about nuclear security? >> i worry more about nuclear security in pakistan than anyone in the world with the possibility of north korea which have i different kinds of concerns. they have three problems. number one problem is they do have a certain instability in the country. as youreferred to the taliban. until two, they have a high ratio of what we call extremists that represent in nuclear security terms potential inside threats. we have seen cases which we referred to as all with mahmood as well as the network that assisted several rogue states in obtaining nuclear.

and the third problem we have is probably the one the least discussed but potentially the most alarming is that their nuclear weapons are increasing. and in an environment -- in this environment, a greater number of facilities and weapons and material production is not a good thing. >> that new plutonium production facility where pakistan is building the fuel for its nuclear weapons the former director of that facility is the same nuclear scientist who met with osama bin laden around that afghan campfire a month before 9/11. it is in this threat environment that the u.s. government begins a concentrated effort to make vivid the threat of nuclear terrorism to the american people. coming up in a nuclear black market america's enemies could become the highest bidder. >> al qaeda's goal is to build a nuclear weapon. ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] unlike

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today the gravest danger in the war on terror, the gravest danger facing america and the world is outlaw regimes that seek and possess nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons. they can also give or sell those weapons to terrorist allies who would use them without the least hesitation. if the iraqi regime is able to produce, buy, or steal an amount of highly enriched uranium a little larger than a single softball, it could have a nuclear weapon in less than a year. and saddam hussein would be in a position to pass nuclear technology to terrorists. >> we know he is out trying once again to produce nuclear weapons. and we know that he has a long-standing relationship with various terrorist groups, including the al qaeda organization. >> the bush administration uses the vivid imagery and fear of nuclear catastrophe to convince the american public that dramatic action is necessary to

protect the country. >> and to defend the world from grave danger. >> but the dramatic action the bush administration takes is to invade iraq, which at the time has no active nuclear program or weapons of mass destruction or any connection to al qaeda. meanwhile, the real work of stopping the real threat of nuclear terrorism proceeds almost frantically with no public attention at all. rolf larson combines an agency. find out if al qaeda has a bomb, if the next attack could be nuclear. find out how their efforts to get one can be stopped. in 2003, a smuggler crosses from russia into georgia carrying 170 grams of very pure bomb-grade uranium. mowat-larson and the cia trace its origins back to an old soviet nuclear facility inside russia. three years another smuggler caught with more nuclear

material from the same facility there is a pipeline out of siberia supplying a black market in what it needs to build a bomb. in pretoria, south africa, during a sting operation on a surveillance camera, five men are arrested for trying to sell highly radioactivive cesium 130, perfect for a dirty bomb attack. they also say they have a industrial nuclear device to sell. there continues to be evidence of kinetic black market activity to get smuggle, and to sell nuclear material. where are the smugglers getting the material? who are they getting it for? this is a black market in global cataclysm. cataclysm. is there a real black market for terrorists who want it buy in material to make a nuclear bomb? >> there's been material roughly 20 cases in the last 20 years. so you have roughly one a year of what we call weapons useable material. so this is weapons that if terrorists got their hands on it could be put into a bomb that would produce a nuclear

yield. so this isn't -- we're not talking dirty bombs. this is weapons, useable material that could create a device if they got their hands on it. there is more that u.s. governments and others areware of, other than those, that we can't talk about because i'm classified. but the material was not reported missing from the facility of origin physical it was found on the black market. that tells us there's a nuclear security problem that is the a the root of the black market problem. >> i feel that the common wisdom is that if terrorist groups were able to get radio active material, what they would likely be able to do is put radio active material into a bomb and explode it a dirty bomb. but yied they could cause a nuclear explosion, set off a nuclear weapon, set off a mushroom cloud, that's impossible. >> that is wrong. al qaeda's goal, which we have known for 15 years at least is to build a nuclear weapon.

their goal is not to produce the dirty bomb but to produce the actual hiroshima like bomb. >> building on the luger initiative of the 90s, the u.s. government dramatically scales up its effort to physically secure nuclear material for other countries. an agency from the energy department, national nuclear administration launches a four-year effort to secure all of the known loose nuclear material around the world. countries like chile where nsa, despite a massive earthquake in the middle of the mission, over the course of about a decade the national nuclear security administration efforts to lock up nuclear material to keep it out of the hand of terrorists, leads to the total recovery of all weapons grade uranium in 18 different countries around the world. pulling off a coordinated international security initiative like this requires a major financial commit many by

the united states pch early in his first term, president obama ramps these efforts up adding billions to their budge snetz today i'm announcing a new international effort to secure all nullenerablevulnerable nuclear material around the world within four years. >> the fact that there isn't been an act of terrorism since 9/11 great ever since. the persistence of that black market, however, mean there are still paying customers out there, trying to take terrorism nuclear. how would the last decade been different if 9/11 had been a nuclear blast or even a dirty bomb attack? how would the next decade unspool if that ever does happen? if al qaeda or another group like it did succeed in detonating a nuclear device, that would not be the end of the world. something would happen next. what do you think would happen next in the united states and around the world? >> that kind of an attack on united states would be intended to draw the united states back in even more, in their terms,

barbaric way into the middle east. which would prove to everybody particularly now as the world's experience is unprecedented and change the middle east, would in a way, favor what al qaeda is all about. which is a u.s. involved krups democracy that favors certain interests. >> how can the u.s. act in way that does not give provocation to that. >> we have to be sure we don overreact. that's in terms of the desired military response. but more importantly is to think through what we are doing in terms of consequences and avoid sorts of things that would play to the extremist cause. two be a at home, ensure, we think real hard about what we are willing to give up in the aftermath of an attack or how frayed we are. we don't have to live in fear. that's what the terrorists want to do more than anything instill fear. if they do that, they win, we lose. >> we we look at how we have

changed within the last decade and we have to think about what kind of country we want to be for the next decade security is never going to go away as and american concern. the wounds of 9/11 are still fresh to us as nation. we are still both alert and concerned about the prospect that there will be another 9/11. that really has not changed at all. but what have we learned in ten years of what works and doesn't work in terms of keeping us safe? >> it works it seems in small focused pinpoint type operations, whether they are against nuclear weapons, whether they are on a city level like new york or whether it is like the cia hit taerms and military hit teams that went and killed bin laden. that kind of thing works. what doesn't work is a vague con conceptual battle that well spread democracy and fight a war against ideology with soldiers. that kind of thing didn't work, doesn't work, and may have made

our country less safe. >> the decision that america would wage preemtive war that we would not allow threats to materialize, we would act militarily and call ourselves justified in doing so before a threat materialized, that has resulted in ten years of constant warhead and more ahead. >> preemption is good if you are trying to stop a dirty bomb attack or threat. it is not good if you are talking about invadeing a country and establishing foreign bases with unknown consequences. >> something that almost by definition, can't control. you can't say how it'll end up. >> a lot of al qaeda people were killed but not by the conventional war launched in the name of al qaeda. the global war on terrorism wab was in many ways, a global war on tearfear. how do you fight against terrorism? we allowed ourselves to become terrorized.

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