"virgin diaries" it ruins breakfast, exclamation point. you know what, you're right, we shouldn't show that.right, we s that anymore. oh, t.j., strict violation of what i told you. don't show the kiss again and again and again. all right. "morning joe" starts right now. . these false and unproved allegations continue to be spined in the media and in the court of public opinion so as to create a cloud of doubt over me and this campaign and my family. that spin hurts. it hurts my wife, it hurts my

family, it hurts me, and it hurts the american people because you are being denied solutions to our problems. >> okay. all right. that's one way to look at it. good morning, everyone. it's monday, december 5th. welcome to "morning joe." with us onset we have msnbc senior political analyst mark haleprin. we also have financier -- >> trying to formalize the program. >> "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner joins the table. >> good morning. good morning. >> it's a good day to have you because there's some interesting data we're looking at pertaining to the economy and also how the different parties are spinning it. you've got charts, it'll help explain it all. >> we had a lot of things going on from the last time we've been on this show. >> a lot. >> usually we get off the show on friday and not a lot happens. we had the announcement on jobs right after we got off.

and herman cain on saturday. let's talk really quickly about herman cain before we get into the news. >> okay. >> i don't think we have him in there, do we? >> i do. >> okay. go ahead. >> it's that he told his supporters the claim of sexual harassment, this woman claiming a 13-year affair had been a distraction and forced him to call it quits. here's how he put it at a press conference with lots of fanfare, take a look. >> false accusations about me continue. they have sidetracked and distracted my ability to present solutions to the american people. i have been the very first to own up any mistakes i have made. even if the political elites don't think i handle it exactly the way the political elites handle it. i handle it my way because that's the type of person i am. >> all right. so reports saying herman cain

will now throw his support behind newt gingrich. >> what's it mean, mark haleprin? what's it all mean? the cain train derailed. i never saw this coming. >> no. >> well, other than when he announced when he was running for president. >> let's not spend a lot of time on -- >> we spent way too much time trying to figure out who he would put in the cabinet. >> i did. cain's out, what's it mean? >> gingrich has an even greater chance now to consolidate. the antiromney vote, the tea party vote, the conservative vote, and to be a dominant southern candidate because both of them are southerners. it's great news for newt gingrich if he can seize the moment. and there have been some stories that say gingrich is going to pick up cain's organization. it's adding nothing to nothing. but gingrich is a momentum candidate now and an anti-romney candidate and that's what cain was. >> well, i was going to say, though, that's exactly what cain

was a month ago. when we went through a list of polls where we showed everybody ahead last week. that's what cain was, bachmann was, perry was, and the question is, how long can newt stay? i do think the one thing he has going for him he's a southern candidate. and willie, you know, all good things come to the south these days. alabama, lsu, newt. >> oh -- >> moon pies. >> moon pies. >> he's also got time on his side now. you have 29 days left to iowa, two of those weeks are holiday weeks where you get lost in things. >> right. >> i don't think there's time for the bubble to burst. here's where he wants to be. >> yeah, yeah. >> yeah, for now. but it's fascinating. and you look at newt gingrich, he does have a chance. >> well, if he has the organization, which some would argue they're scrambling now at this point according to some reports. let's look at the polls. >> i was looking at willie, and i had a thought and i lost it because i got sidetracked with

football. really quickly i was going to say, it was a really bad weekend for mitt romney, as well. this bret baier interview continues to reverberate inside fox news. that's extraordinarily important to republican candidates. you know, you always hear about the washington primary, that's what we used to have. no, it's a fox primary now. and mitt romney has really been hurt inside of fox news because he couldn't handle basic questions he should have been able to answer -- >> and they weren't unfair questions. >> and bret is a good, fair, decent guy. >> bret's a good interviewer and a fair journalist and asked questions that romney's been asked many times before by many journalists. but the way he handled that, the one move where he gave the nervous laugh and crossed his legs, and you had bret baier going on a rally the next night giving more context. >> you know, this -- >> didn't look good. >> mitt romney and jon huntsman

who don't like to be compared to each other. i think both of these guys have made some really tactical errors. jon huntsman wouldn't call himself a conservative for a very long time and that hurt him. mitt romney has decided he's going to stay in a cocoon. and that's really hurt him. so when he does have an interview, even at fox news with bret who again asks him basic questions. hep can't handle those. >> because too much is on the line because they've hidden from the questions. let's take a look at the polls. because with herman cain out, the latest poll shows the former house speaker newt gingrich with 26% supporting the hawkeye state, a 21-point jump from october. mitt romney and ron paul are in a statistical tie for second place, about eight points behind. in new hampshire, romney -- >> wait, wait, wait, i want to go back to iowa for a second. >> sure.

>> i want to go back to iowa. and put that back up, t.j. i know this is going to be tough for you. i want -- i want to go back to iowa. it really shouldn't have been that hard. you know what's fascinating about these numbers? we've seen volatility. there has been only one candidate that has done a slow, solid, gradual rise. and there's only one candidate that you know is not going to collapse, and he's right in the center. ron paul, we gave him no respect because everybody screams and yells ron paul. you see all the signs, and then he ends up getting 7%, 8%, 9%. that's been doubled, he's at 17%. in some polls, he's at 20%. ron paul's support's not falling. and i would almost put even money on newt gingrich stubbing his toe in iowa and ron paul winning that state. >> here's where i go against the conventional wisdom, which is ron paul could win this state.

he is slow and steadily rising. i think a lot of people who support ron paul have no idea what it means to go to an iowa caucus. going to a caucus is not like a primary. you have to go at a particular time, poll -- >> are you comparing him to howard dean in 2004? >> i am, indeed. he's got a lot of money and a decent organization, but i'm skeptical he's going to perform at the caucus at the level that he's polling with one possible caveat, which is turnout could be low. i've been talking to a lot of people in iowa. how big is this going to be? there's a lot of enthusiasm about beating the president, on the other hand, there's no organization. >> let's say, though, you're a smart government conservative like me, you obviously have concerns with mitt romney. and i'm talking about in iowa. jon huntsman's not campaigning in iowa, take him off for the most part. mitt romney, where is he this week? and so you have conservatives like me who have been grasp at

that. and then you look at all of the other flawed candidates. if i went to the iowa caucuses every four years, i might say i'm going to support ron paul and send a message. i think that may be happening. >> of all the flawed candidates, ron paul is one of the most flawed if not the most flawed when you look at what he believes in terms of abolishing the fed and the other libertarian policies. >> if you're a manhattan liberal. >> are you for? >> no, but i think it sends a message. i'm not in favor of the fed being one of it is most powerful institutions in this country and the planet and having almost no transparency until somebody like ron paul came along and demanded transparency. i think that's a positive -- i think ron paul is a positive counterweight to a lot of big government spending and a lot f of, you know, you look at what he said about fannie and

freddie, what he said about the banks before anybody else was saying about it. he gets a lot of things right. i think his foreign policy, while i agree with him that we shouldn't be in all the wars, i think extreme in places. i think if i wanted to send a message, ron paul would be a good way for me to send a message. >> he's a counterweight, not the center, not the guy who will be the nominee. >> and most people who caucus, don't go to send a message, they go to vote for president. >> did you see that zoomout? that was kind of like -- >> that long pause of me making sure you wouldn't interrupt. >> t.j. -- i expected goldie hawn to show up. >> let's take a look at new hampshire. romney's in the lead with 39% support from likely primary voters. he's dropped six points from october. gingrich gained 19 points in this state, now 16 points behind romney and ron paul in third trailing gingrich by seven points.

the same nbc news polling also providing a look at the risk without herman cain. cain supporters were asked to name their second pick and in that scenario gingrich jumps two points in the revised poll while mitt romney, ron paul, and rick perry each gain one point. >> so, again, there you have new hampshire. ron paul sitting up at 16%, 17%, i'm not riding the ron paul train, i'm just saying there's been a lot of volatility, but there's been one candidate with a slow and steady gain and it's been ron paul. >> i think he can do well in primaries, caucus is a bigger challenge. the challenge for gingrich in new hampshire is to get some of that ron paul vote and hope nobody else grows. because romney is strong in new hampshire, strongest state, but he's not going to get 60% of the vote. there's a lot of vote to be had there. and to me, it's like pat buchanan in '96. he can win it. >> he won. yeah. >> obviously with newt's rise -- >> by the way, pat hadn't been feeling well for the past week

or so, we just send our best to pat. >> awkward timing, but absolutely. >> no, he brought up pat. and actually we sent flowers to pat and he sent back -- >> a great note. >> he said, you might want to give them to mitt, he needs them more now than me. >> so he's not feeling all that bad. >> no, no, no -- it wasn't really serious but he was in the hospital for a week or so not feeling well. yeah, and we just absolutely love him. and we love we send him flowers, you better give them to mitt, he needs them more than me right now. >> i'm going to save newt for the half hour because i have a whole bunch of stuff including a george -- >> did you see the columns? >> oh, my -- >> everybody -- >> it was a blood bath. >> everybody got together and said we're going to write about newt. which, of course, other than george will -- it only makes newt stronger. >> i want to get to the jobs number because rattner does have something prepared for us, so you need to zip it for one

second. riding some positive economic news into the weekend with the november jobs report showing unemployment dipping to 8.6%. we showed you that on friday. it's the lowest level since early 2009. >> i said that was great news! and i went on my twitter feed and said how great! the unemployment drops by almost .5 percentage points, i'm excited for americans out of work. i got savaged. they said you're a liberal, you love obama. no, i like people working. >> it's good news for the president. >> well, i was hoping it was good news for americans out of work, but apparently not. >> you've got to read into the numbers. the "new york times" editorial this weekend looks at it this way and says in part this, properly understood, the new figures reveal more about the depth of distress in the job market than about real improvement in job prospects. most of the decline in november's unemployment rate was not because jobless people found new work, rather, it's because 315,000 people dropped out of the workforce. >> this is depressing. >> a reflection of

extraordinarily weak demand by employers for new workers. >> boy, that is depressing. >> now, i have to say, i want to ask rattner about this because on "meet the press" yesterday, the rnc chairman was really attacking the president. it was a lot of very well-prepared lines very well delivered if i might add. >> it was pretty good, huh? >> not sure it was fair. >> he had a good performance. >> if a democrat -- let's hear the slogans, roll them. >> the reason the actual percentage of people filing with the department of labor went down was because 300,000 people threw up their hands and said, guess what? this economy's so bad that i'm not going to file a piece of paper with the department of labor. >> you know so steve, again, you look at him. and this is what is so frustrating about this damn unemployment number is, it just -- it's -- we've got to figure out a better way to do

it. because i see 8.6, and i think great news for america. people are getting back to work. it sounds, if you read the "new york times" editorial like it's just the opposite. >> well, somewhere in between, actually. people get focused on this unemployment number and it tells you a piece of the story, but as you guys have just talked about, it doesn't tell you all the story. there were 120,000 new jobs created, that's good, better than it could have been. but it is as the times said because a lot of people dropped out of -- >> let me ask really quickly, what is that magic number if we're going to go toward recovery? how many jobs do we need to add every month? what number do we around this table need to be looking at? >> 300,000. the number of people basically used to say what will really bring the unemployment rate down on a sustained basis accounting for people staying in the labor force. >> okay. so 300,000, and we were at 120,000. so actually ends up a bad month. >> it's a bad month. and remember also the government is a drag on this.

because at the state, federal, and local level, the government's cutting jobs every month. so the private sector has to bear the burden. >> we're in the crunch. let's go through the charts. >> is there good news? >> there's a little bit of good news. and here's why the president has done a little bit better in the polls in the online markets, some of the news is better. when you talk about jobs, one place that people look at are the new claims for unemployment insurance. people who are going out freshly looking for unemployment insurance. and you can see that peaked back during the height of the recession in 2009. and it's been declining reasonably steadily. and now it's hit 395,000, below 400,000 is generally where people say the labor market is improving. and so you can see where below that mark, below it back in the spring. and the summer when a lot of people were talking about double-dip recessions, it had bounced back up. so this suggests that the labor market should continue to improve. whether it's going to get to that 300,000 number i think is certainly more problematic. >> yeah.

>> oh. >> so let's look at leading indicators and what can you tell us? >> so leading indicators are exactly what they sound like they are. they're a series of -- >> you're telling us they're leading indicators. >> they're going to lead you somewhere. >> people are buying. >> when they're higher, they're going to lead you to good places, lower, not such good places. >> this 0.9% is the highest it's been since february. and these are 12 different indicators, everything from housing permits to hours worked. and in the summer when we were all getting worried about double dip, it had dropped back down again. it's basically back in the zone it was in when we were recovering. >> so to the argument at hand, which is the republicans who are running for president saying our current president ruined the economy, and the present administration saying we saved it, what do your numbers tell you? something in the middle, as well? >> well, look, this is the quintessential argument, half

empty, half full. the economy is better than it was than when the president came. if we want to look at other charts, we can look at consumer confidence. you will remember, we talked during the debt debacle about how it was the biggest drop in consumer confidence over two months. after every disaster except for katrina, bigger than 9/11 and so forth. you've now had this rather very sharp increase back up to 56. so this is good news. because consumers are, again, feeling a little bit better about things and so, of course, congress does something else to make them feel less good. but for a moment, feeling more optimistic. you can see that in the holiday sales numbers. >> holiday sales numbers may be up. what about auto sales? i always cheer on and congratulations on what you're part of it -- >> he's the car czar. >> i know he's a car czar. i'm one of these guys -- i'm my dad's son, when ford and gm are doing well, i'm feeling better about america. when detroit's doing well, i'm thinking there's some hope. >> we can make you feel better

there because car sales have also started recovering. back in the worst of it they were down in the 9.3 million range, and now they have been climbing steadily and just hit 13.6 -- >> there's a huge spike in july of '09. explain what happened in july of '09? >> cash for clunkers. >> i was going to say, this is evidence for those that say that government cannot move the economy. a lot of people hated for cash for clunkers and i know i'm going to get killed for saying it. i loved it. instead of having the federal government saying we're going to buy you a car and give it to you, no, we're going to give you the incentive to go out and -- >> cash for clunkers cost a couple billion dollars and did more to help the economy than any other expenditure of a similar size. >> so you know the only other thing, willie, you can see this coming liking a freight train coming out of the midst, as professor pearson said in class,

the other thing that's going to be a leading indicator of america doing is an all sec national championship. you knew it was coming. >> saw that coming. 19 minutes. >> it took 19 minutes. can i say, though, seriously? there's no doubt. turn the music down, we're getting to the important stuff now. there's no doubt that alabama and lsu are the two best teams in america. i don't think there's any doubt of that. that said, if i were oklahoma state and i deboned my rival oklahoma in a big game, i would be so angry right now. again, alabama deserves to be there. i would say that even if i weren't an alabama fan. but this system is screwed up. if a team like oklahoma state was able to do what oklahoma state did and they don't have the shot at the national championship along with lsu and alabama. >> oklahoma state won the conference. >> right? >> beat the crap out of oklahoma. if you don't mind my saying, more win verse ranked teams, over teams with winning records.

if you look at a blind resume, oklahoma state should be in that game. alabama's in because of people's eyeballs. they watch and say that team's probably better. let's not go with that team's probably better. let's see who wins. >> the other side of it, i would say alabama's loss was in overtime, ohio state lost to iowa state. >> double overtime on the road. >> double overtime on the road in a terrible week. they also, though, their biggest win was against kansas state. >> i think the two best teams are in. but if i were an oklahoma state fan, i would be furious. >> i would be furious and college football fans should be furious that we don't have a chance to see who's better. oklahoma state, alabama, or lsu. and you know, go throw in oregon or stanford, whoever that fourth team would be, there's no reason why you shouldn't have a final four. >> right. >> a lot of people want 8 and 16 -- just have a final four and

let the number five team complain about not getting in, but at least you don't have a 10-1 team like oklahoma state. and by the way that coach, gundy, he's been a butt of jokes for a long time because of that tirade he was in, that man was cool on the sidelines. >> he's good and he was good last night when he got the bad news. handled it with class. they have good reason to be upset today. >> they do and good reason to be proud in what they've done. and t. boone. >> launching an investigation. >> i'm talking about his investment. go ahead and investigate, but boone pickens, wow, great job. as once said, it's hard to rally a campus around a math class. boone if i can yours that out. i'm done. >> you sure? >> kind of. >> okay. coming up, we're going to bring in congressman barney frank and jim clyburn. but first, bill karins with a check on the forecast.

>> good to have him back. >> thank you. "morning joe" detox went fairly well, not perfect. good morning, everyone. dense fog this morning, big issue for folks on the east coast down through jersey and the chesapeake, temperatures are very warm. and people in northern new england are wondering where's our snow? they count on it for the ski season and snow mobile season. that fog should lift by 10:00 on the east coast, traveling today, rain, buffalo, erie, pittsburgh, through ohio, but still very warm, the big cities. a lot of rain coming up from the south. shreveport, little rock, indianapolis, cleveland, and detroit, it's all umbrella weather for you. all the cold air back toward denver. minus 7 windchill, so winter's in the middle of the country. by the end of this week, it'll shift to the east coast, but if you're on the eastern sea board, what a nice start this has been. another mild day for you. you're watching "morning joe." we're brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] humana and walmart have teamed up

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this christmas, a number of senators will participate in a secret santa gift exchange that will involve members from both parties. the way it works is the democrats will give the republicans a gift and that's it. >> that's funny. >> time now -- >> did you see barack obama's countdown on snl? he said he's the 11th most powerful person in america. i think behind the kardashians according to "snl." >> it is 27 past the hour. time now to look at the morning papers. the washington post says a u.s. surveillance drone that went missing last week in western afghanistan appears to have crashed in iran. it may be the first case of such an aircraft ending up in the

hands of an adversary. one official denies claims the drone was shot down. and from our parade of papers, the story america can't avoid. "the birmingham news" says make way for alabama versus lsu part deux. it's in birmingham. the national championship game is going to be held january 9th in new orleans. >> we need to go. >> we do need to go. of course, that's the night before the new hampshire primary, but where there's a will, there's a way. i've got a feeling, willie, we're all going to be in new orleans. >> we'll find a way. >> we will find a way. well, we -- we'll do it. >> we'll be covering the primary with great interest. >> as they say in the sound of music, i have confidence and confidence alone. >> let's do some politico. mr. mike allen with a look at the morning playbook. >> how rich has mike gotten with this book? this ebook?

>> "the right fights back." >> it's changed the way america is reading. mike allen has done that. it's a revolution. this is like the beatles at jfk february of '64. mike allen's ebook. >> god bless. >> this is george washington crossing the delaware. this has changed everything, willie. >> even bigger, yesterday i signed my first ipad. >> that's cool. >> shawn spicer's ipad now has my signature across the middle. >> does that make it harder to read it? >> i like it, mike. >> very kind of you. >> the book's doing really well. let's talk about mitt romney. we mentioned this a little earlier in the show. the vulnerability, perhaps, of mitt romney kind of living in a glass case. some skepticism about the way he handles himself in interviews. as you say that are not hermetically sealed. listen to this bite from the interview at fox news last week. >> do you think mandating people

to buy insurance is the right tool? >> bret, i don't know how many hundred times i've said this too, this is an unusual interview. all right. let's do it again. >> why is that moment making republicans nervous? >> well, what we're seeing there is that the former governor is rusty. he's not been doing interviews. his last sunday show was fox news sunday in march 2010. so we hasn't done a sunday show since announcing -- bob schieffer, "face the nation" tell me not just calling every week, they call and several times every week trying to get him to come on. and what we're reporting is the campaign in 2008, he needed interviews. this time they calculated they didn't. there was nothing to be gained from the high-profile interviews. they turned down interviews with joe klein of "time" doing a cover story about mitt romney. they turned down an interview with robert draper of the "new york times" magazine who was doing a cover story because they

say they don't need to. but then you see the interview with fox and we see there something that we reported in our ebook that people who work with mitt romney in 2008 said he's easily rattled that as my mother says, he can get hot under the collar. you can rattle him. >> you know, which, of course, doesn't happen to me or anybody around this table. you just wonder why -- >> i've never seen you lose it. >> here's the real problem. you talked -- and i know you talked to republicans out there all the time. i talk to the republicans and say why newt? you know, he's got all these flaws, politically, personally, why newt? and they all seem to say the same thing because i want to see him debate. -- barack obama. i think he can beat barack ob a obama, doesn't -- and mitt has done great in debates up until this point. but doesn't this underline the fact that what mike's saying that republicans are going, wait, do we really want to put a guy up against barack obama that can't even handle an interview

with fox news? i mean, seems to me that's why this thing is going to really hurt the romney people unless they start getting him out there. >> they've got to find a way for him to defuse gingrich. they don't want to take gingrich on directly right now. and one of the ways was to have him be out there so republicans could feel comfortable and confident that if they send him into battle, he can do it. and that undermined a lot of people's sense in him. his best thing is friends like tom coburn and others saying we can't turn this over to gingrich. there's no doubt if you're mitch mcconnell or john boehner, you don't want him at the top of the ticket. >> knowing what i know about him, saying i cannot support his candidacy. >> tom wrote a book about newt the same time i wrote a book about newt in 2004, and you'd be hard-pressed to find a lot of the freshmen conservatives -- a lot of people think it's personal, it's certainly not

personal. i don't know newt well enough personally to have any -- i don't have any grudge against him. he's pretty darn good to me professional, his management style is about as bad as anybody. >> coburn's comment -- >> this side of barack obama, of course. >> coburn's comment was so remarkable, i thought. so direct and so pointed from a senior senator about somebody who may well be the nominee may well even be president saying he couldn't support him and wasn't sure if he could support him if he ran for president. >> it's remarkable -- but there are a lot of people out there who worked with newt with strong feelings and they've stayed silent. >> it's hard to find many people that worked with newt back during the house days that would support him now. >> we're going to play that coburn bite coming up in must reads. >> mike allen, thanks so much. mike, the author again of playbook 2012, "the right fights back." had let soon your kindle. >> any device, your ipod.

iphone -- >> mike allen. >> then he had it tattooed over the -- >> of course i did. coming up tim tebow now 6-1. >> holy cow. >> as the broncos -- >> holy qb. >> even the doubters are saying this kid can play. mike flourio. looking good! you lost some weight. you noticed! these clothes are too big, so i'm donating them. how'd you do it? eating right, whole grain. [ female announcer ] people who choose more whole grain tend to weigh less than those who don't. multigrain cheerios... five whole grains, 110 calories.

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♪ ...northrop grumman's security solutions are invisibly at work, protecting people's lives... [ soldier ] move out! [ male announcer ] ...without their even knowing it. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman. thatcan i help you? of performance. yeah, can i get a full-sized car? for full-sized cars, please listen to the following menu. for convertibles, press star one. i didn't catch that. to speak to a representative, please say representative now. representative. goodbye! you don't like automated customer service, and neither do we. that's why, unlike other cards, no matter when you call chase sapphire preferred, you immediately get a person not a prompt. chase sapphire preferred. a card of a different color. (phone ringing) chase sapphire preferred, this is julie in springfield.

looking around -- shaking off tacklers, how about that play from tebow! and it's inside of the ten, and that is a touchdown for denver! i love the presence of tim tebow continuing to look down the field. >> i once was lost, but now i'm found. >> tim tebow does it again. >> blind, but now i see. joining us nbc's mike florio, also the founder of profootballtalk.com. >> really? he's for real, willie? >> last night, 6-1 as the probl broncos start to hear some of

the commentators to say, okay, the kid can play. >> he only ran the ball four times yesterday, he was 10 for 15 passing, doing what they have to do to win games, that's all that matters. and this is going to be a dangerous team when they get to the playoffs. i'm not going to say if anymore. all the extra pressure and media attention he's going to shrug it, he's used to it. and the confidence week in and week out, that's going to serve them so well when they get to the setting. >> you see the guys on the sideline how they respond to tebow? like he's been around for 15 years. everybody on the denver sidelines is glad he's there except for -- and i'm serious, john elway. elway hates this guy. >> do i clap now? when do i act like i'm excited? >> did you pick that up? mike, did you pick that up? hep doesn't like tebow succeeding! >> no, he wants to draft a quarterback. >> he wants a guy that's going to throw the ball, make all the throws, the outs, the in, not this crazy wind up motion.

at some point he's got to embrace it because they are winning games and that's all that matters. he makes everyone around him -- here's the other thing. think about a late night game the vikings have a chance to get a field goal. first play they throw an interception. the opponents are starting to say, here we go, some way, some how we're going to lose -- >> that was terrible. overtime, throwing deep into territory is horrible. >> it's creeping into the heads of the teams the broncos are playing that they're going to lose. >> kind of like the giants. >> the giants have lost to a team much, much better than they are. but they've played well, their defense played relatively well. but apparently aaron rogers only needs 38 seconds to lead a game-winning drive. >> the exact same score against the patriots, the giants lost but came out of that game with the confidence they needed to get hot in the post season. the close call against the packers, feeling that they can catch the cowboys only a game behind, play the cowboys twice.

will this give them the same confidence when they almost beat the undefeated patriots four years ago. >> what can you say about aaron rogers? he's one of the guys you say, uh-oh, we've scored, overtime, was it too much? and it was. >> first of all, 45 seconds, how do you let a guy get behind you? with 45 seconds, he had three steps on him. >> a nice move at the line of scrimmage. >> the amazing thing is, we're not noticing what a great year aaron rogers is having because we want to talk about tebow, want to talk about this, and meanwhile aaron rogers have having an historic nfl season. >> drew brees last night on sunday night, what did he have? 250 at halftime, cruised to a 342 day. he's putting together another great year. >> and he's still on pace to set the single season yardage record. dan marino held it since 1984. i think this year's going to

take it. this is a tough team to beat at home. when they get out into the elements in the post season, will they be able to play like they've been playing lately at the super dome. >> on the other side, afc, what jumped out at you yesterday? steelers beat the baengals. >> the steelers have proven to us that the bengals are fraud. the texans are there, 9-3, teams jockeying for positions. who is going to be that top seed in the afc? who is going to force other teams to play them in january? that's still to be determined. when you've got four 9-3 teams at the top of the conference. >> always put your money on tom brady and the patriots too. thanks so much. >> falcons lost a rough one. >> but everybody else lost too. nobody wanted to win yesterday in the nfc, so the falcons are still in shape. >> that's why that giants loss hurt even more. everybody else lost with a good opportunity. two more against the cowboys. mike florio, thank you very much. coming up next, mika's must-read

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there's a lot of candidates out there i'm not inclined to be a supporter of newt gingrich's having served under him for four years and experienced his type of leadership. there's all sorts of leaders, leaders that instill confidence, somewhat abrupt and brisk, leaders with one standard for the people they're leading and a different standard for themselves. i just found his leadership lacking. >> all right. tom coburn, that's -- i mean, i don't know, what do you make of that? and i think that's very effective and bad news for newt, to about extent. >> i was there with tom every step of the way. same with mark sanford, a group of us who, again, just weren't

really impressed with his leadership skill set would be a very polite way to say it, mark haleprin. but you've talked to a lot of people who have worked with newt in the past, and they're holding their fire. i haven't done that. >> some of them don't want to take newt on. some of them don't love romney and want romney to fight on his own to prove he's tough enough for the general election, but the establishment may be making a mistake, the people who know him well and don't want him to be the nominee may wait too long to speak out and he wins iowa, new hampshire, south carolina, and it may be too late to stop him. >> at the present moment, the opinion writers are slathering in anti-newt talk. here's frank bruni. romney seems newtly shaken, newtly spooked. and it goes on to speak while newt gingrich has spooked mitt romney. she talks about newt's mind.

it is persuaded itself that it is brilliant when it is mere promiscuous. this is not a serious mind. gingrich is not to put mindly a systematic thinker. his mind is a jumble, lacking impulse control. he plays air guitar with ideas producing air ideas. he ejaculates concepts, notions, and theorys that are as inconsistent as his behavior. >> i don't know if that's the word i would have used. >> maybe spews out. >> what else you got? >> i've got george will, which i think is the most interesting one. >> that's huge. >> that is. this is actually one of those things that got forwarded to me on saturday. i said this is just one of those columns that at least in the conservative movement -- >> seminal. >> yeah, is a game changer. >> all right. gingrich who would've made a marvelous marxist believes everything is related to everything else and only he understands how conservatism in contrast is both cause and effect of modesty about

understanding society's complexities, controlling its trajectory, and improving upon its spontaneous order. conservatism eno enoch lates. gingrich might stop being as churchill said a bull who carries his own china shop around with him. but both are too risky to anoint today. >> and mark haleprin, george will's bottom line is that newt gingrich is the least conservative of all the republican candidates. >> but he also blasted romney for whom he has no affection and love and urged conservatives to look at rick perry, take another look at rick perry and jon huntsman. he makes one of the best cases i've read so far of huntsman as a conservative. >> he also said in there that his wife worked for -- >> his wife worked for rick perry. >> i've been wanted to make clear, i think romney's going to be the nominee, that's the most likely outcome. but it's clear that we could see a situation where gingrich

destabilizes romney and people in the party turn to someone else and at this point that would be huntsman or perry. >> another interesting part of coburn's comments yesterday which we didn't play was that he feels that gingrich is a guy who doesn't practice what he preaches. he expects things of other people he doesn't ask for himself. you're seeing it in this campaign where he's railing against washington having not been a tool of washington but one of the central players in washington working for fannie while railing against fannie. >> he made $100 million playing the revolving door game. and this is a thing at the end of the day, again, it's not personal, but it's what drives me crazy about newt gingrich. he says barney frank should be thrown in jail for supporting legislation for freddie, what we don't know is he's been paid $1.6 million and goes out and basically schils for the two

institutions we conservatives believe. we believe that fannie and freddie started a fire that almost took down our entire kpli economy. we conservatives believe that. >> i don't disagree with that, by the way. >> we conservatives believe it, but newt doesn't. and why doesn't newt? because he was getting paid $1.6 million. and there's all of these -- he calls other people socialists, the cbo, for instance, a socialistic institution and yet he supported a $7 trillion medicare part d benefit, which was the most socialistic, biggest spending program on the books since lbj. these are the inconsistencies that drive me crazy about newt gingrich. >> it's all true, but remember that rick perry and jon huntsman have their own set of flaws. they are flawed candidates in their own ways. they're not necessarily great alternatives to romney. >> all right. we've got to somehow turn the newt -- how do we stop talking about newt? >> no, i think, again, it's -- i think newt's going to take up a

lot of space. i think, though, as you said mark haleprin, he may have a historic impact because he may be the guy that destabilizes mitt romney and either drags this out so long that we have a brokered convention or he helps nominate a third person. willie's news you can't use is next. on my phone, i got internet! hotspot five dollars. hey, hey, hey, hey. i can see who's on my network people! lance? lance? yes, yes

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all right. i need to know if it's time. >> before we get to news you can't use.

>> yes. >> serious question. and we can go around the table. do you, yes or no -- >> yeah. >> do you think -- >> uh-huh. >> and we'll start this way, that rudolph the red nose reindeer is turning our kids into bullies. >> that's a topic i would like to see explored. >> steve? >> i'd like to hear. >> why do you ask this question? >> it's floating out there in the press right now. >> it's in the ether. >> i love that story. >> what are you talking about? >> that's -- that's one of the dumbest -- what are you talking about? >> news you can't use. >> it just came to mind. thought i'd get your attention. >> there's a back story here and i'm going to find out what the back story is. let's talk about herman cain. sadly ending the campaign on saturday in atlanta. and he ended it with a reference to japanese animae. announcing the end of the road with the reference to the

pokemon movie. >> i'm going to leave you with this. i believe these words came from the pokemon movie. life can be a challenge. life can seem impossible. it's never easy when there's so much on the line. but you and i can make a difference. there's a mission just for you and me, just look inside and you will find just what you can do. >> that's a true story. >> no! no! he quoted pokemon. >> those were the lyrics to the

song from pokemon 2000. the film pokemon 2000. >> he quoted pokemon? >> a certain club on a saturday evening and told me this was the guy -- >> he quoted pokemon. oh, my -- oh my god! >> laugh if you must, but do you know who sang that song? >> who? >> donna summer. >> stop. >> by name too. he straight face -- >> he quotes pokemon. >> hey, look who's here. oh, i'm looking forward to this. >> i can't breathe. pokemon. oh, my god. you ready for your present? yeah. all right, i'll be right back. okay. ♪ [ male announcer ] sometimes the giving can be just as amazing as the gift.

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everything he touched has gotten worse. now, the debt commission he didn't follow it. super committee, he's out campaigning, he was nowhere to be found. health care costs, he said that obama care would make everything better in regard to health care, it would lower the cost of health care, guess what? costs are higher. debt is higher, the deficits are higher. people are tired of this president's promises and his failure to deliver. and guess what? if this president was an employee of any business out there in america, he would have been fired a long time ago. >> well -- >> unlike the republican congress who would probably get a raise for their 9% approval rating. >> that's true.

>> welcome back to "morning joe." >> we have mark haleprin and steve rattner still with us. and joining the table democratic representative from massachusetts congressman barney frank. >> how do you feel, barney? this has been a big couple months for you. you, of course, somebody suggests on national television you should be thrown in jail because you -- you -- of course that person got paid $1.6 million. but also now you're getting out of congress. that -- how are you feeling about that decision? >> surprisingly happy. i have regrets. and i know when congress reconvenes in january of 2013 i'll miss it some, but i started working full-time in politics in october of 1967 for kevin white running for mayor. and with one six-month period off, i worked for a couple of guys in the state legislature, i've done this, it was almost 45 years. that would have been the

equivalent when i started out in 1967 talking with a guy who started working in politics in 1922. and i'm just -- i hadn't realized i was at a point when the phone rang i flinched saying what new problem is this? so i expect to do a lot of public policy advocacy. >> yeah. >> i also think the way it's working now, there's a set of attitudes in the country i don't agree with in terms of, one, i think people are unduly pessimistic about government and elected officials. being an elected official in the congress. i've always thought i was better at legislating than campaigning. i like doing the work on the inside, but the scope for that now has been very constricted by the attitudes. so there's some offset to me. for instance, i will say the same things about public policy going forward that i said in the past. but there'll be less cynicism. you're just saying that to get elected, i have a better chance

getting judged on the merits. can i say one thing about my going to jail? >> yeah. >> i do have one -- i take consolation from one thing about you -- i do know if newt is president, i won't be the person in the country the president most dislikes, you will be. i have a little comfort -- >> there is no doubt i am number one on that list. you know what's so interesting, though, i always have people e-mailing me, calling me on twitter saying why is it personal? and this is one thing, barney, and i don't know about you, i suspect you're like me in this respect, politics, it's never personal with me. if i say something about newt gingrich, i don't even know newt gingrich. so i remember i would go over to the democratic side of the aisle and conservatives would say, why did you do that? i totally separate the political and the personal. there's one time and i was very public about this, dick armey did something i didn't like, it

took a decade, but i patched that up. it's not personal. there's just the inconsistency of newt that drives me crazy. >> there is one exception i make, which is obviously fighting on the question of equal legal rights for people gay and lesbian. when people say things that are personal, they get personal. when people talk about a despicable human being people like me are, it's personal. my problem with mr. gingrich, he was more likely to make it personal. i think when he was there, he began by saying, look, we can't treat politics as differences between people of good will. you have to say to the democrats they're treasonous, they're corrupt, they're evil. and i did think suggesting i go to jail was a little bit personal. i understand why you're so angry. in 2007, we passed the bill working with the bush administration that put fannie mae and freddie mac in a

conservatorship. and now learned that newt's retainer ended, so my legislation cost him $30,000 a month and i understand why he would take that personally. >> you know, the thing is, and as you know in the past i've said tough things about you. and i'm sure you didn't appreciate that. if the roles were reversed you would by saying tough things about me if you had a three-hours here. >> i did, joe, you just didn't hear him. >> he has -- >> the thing is if you look at somebody based on their politics, it allows you to work through things so we can get together later and talk about -- talk about -- >> you know about legislating. and the thing is, legislating's a peculiar business. i want to write a book about it. it's the only part we work together, there's no hierarchy, there's no boss, some people are more influential than others, but somebody was elected by somebody else. and you have to work together in a personal way and you also understand this.

if you want to get something done, you better be willing to work with anybody because there will be people whom you just think are crazy on every other issue, but you work together on this one. and if you're not prepared to work together with people like that and that means not burning the bridges, then you can't be effective. >> you never know, mika, who your ally is going to be. >> i worked with ron paul, and his people told him i was killing him in iowa. he had to stop hanging out with me. >> i want to talk about news that crossed your state over the weekend. what do you think about elizabeth warren's political prospects? >> they're very good. until a few months ago, i was the person most disappointed in america that the president did not appoint her to the consumer bureau. we're both behind scott brown, he's now the most disappointed person. the latest poll shows that she's slightly ahead. scott brown's got a problem. by the way, i've gotten along very well with scott and we've collaborated.

we have not supported each other intellectually. here's the deal, he ran as the outsider. well, but he was in the state legislature for over 20 years and now he's the incumbent senator. she's the ultimate outsider, but the outsider very effective inside. i've worked very much with her. working with her to create the independent consumer bureau was a highlight for me. and she showed a shrewdness. she was a pragmatic ideologue. and that's the best combination. >> i think she's a fascinating story, and she could've a real serious -- >> and she's very likable. one of the things -- i think you see that in the republican primary. mitt romney just isn't likable. i mean, when you cut through everything else. i have that problem too, there were times when surprisingly to me people did not think i was cuddly. >> oh, stop it. >> who knew? >> who would say that? >> let me ask you about this. lawsuit filed by massachusetts

attorney general martha coakley. says it's going to end most of its business in the bay state. and this is apparently in reaction to this lawsuit filed. coakley sued the nation's five biggest mortgage services, bork, jpmorgan chase, wells fargo, citigroup, and allied alleging the foreclosure practices were unlawful and deceptive. now coakley says she proceeded with a lawsuit after the settlement talks with other state attorney generals failed to yield progress. a spokesman for gmac's parent company said the firm would honor all commitments made through today, but that "litigations costs" have made mortgage lending in massachusetts no longer viable. >> barney, what do you think about martha's lawsuit? >> i think she did the right thing. i think that the banks have refused to recognize their culpability. we made a mistake, there's an important political science point. when we did the t.a.r.p. and advanced the money to the banks, all of which has been paid back,

we made this mistake. we should've asked them for more of a equipment with regard to averting foreclosure. and we have this political problem. people have paid their mortgages on time, they get resentful if they think other people are getting help. but it's a macroeconomic issue. the people who will benefit people who are probably irresponsible is a consequence in the fact we need to deal with this economically. the problem is this -- and this really needs -- should be examined even by the political scientists. the decisions about how to implement that bank lending program called t.a.r.p. happened during a presidential transition. it was all being done after obama was elected and before he took office. and what happened was we could not get decisions made, and i was very frustrated at one point trying to get obama to ask paulson to do certain things and he said we only have one president at the time. i said that overstated the number of presidents we currently have. >> please. >> we could've done more about

getting the banks in this position. they resisted. and i think what the lawsuit i think is accurate on the merits. >> well, i was actually the guy who put the money into allied bank that we were just talking about. and our instructions were to recapitalize the bank in a profitable way and let other regulators deal with the question whether they should be lending money and under what -- >> and i -- and that's right and again, we wrote into the legislation so it would -- so we could get the t.a.r.p. passed, we put in legislation saying you'll do mortgage foreclosure relief. and paulson mentioned this in the book and it got to the point where he spent the $350 billion, and to do that he needed to get the second $350 billion. he didn't want to ask for it unless obama asked him. there's a lot in the history books about how roosevelt and hoover had an inability to work together during that transition. we had a similar thing with the t.a.r.p. we should've asked the banks to do more. but the point we want to make now is i understand there were some people who will benefit who were not totally -- >> but the practical issue is,

i'm not necessarily disagreeing with martha coakley did in massachusetts, but the banks say, okay. >> that's one bank. and if you believe we have a competitive bank system in america, then good riddance to them. i think, ironically to my friends on the left, smo of this shows we have more competition. look what happened to bank of america, they made a mistake, but that fee and competition drove them back. the fact is that the bank system in america is more competitive than some of my friends on the left want to acknowledge. and i think this is the case. i don't think any loans will go unsecuritized that shouldn't have been securitized. there'll be others in there, allied is 1 out of 5, the other four are staying in there and other people will move in. >> despite being a man on the left, you are leaving with a good relationship in the business community. they see you as somebody who will understand their concerns. a lot of people in the business community don't feel that way

about the president. what's your sense of the state of the relationship the white house has with the business community? >> i think that the basic problem is the president has hurt their feelings. one of the things i've discovered in my years, or came to realize is one of the most important things people want from those of us in elected office is psychic income. they want to be told is that what they do is not only profitable but socially valuable. that they're good people. and i've tried not to demonize people. that's easy to do. very few of them are bad people. there are people with whom i disagree. and i think that goes back to what we were saying earlier. i do think if you look at the public policies the president has advocated, there's no good reason for this business of hostility, and i think it's a couple of comments that are hurt feelings. as far as my being able to work with them. my position on financial regulation and other things is close to the administration. i had very good relations with them.

i think, frankly, from the beginning -- and what's ironic is he's in trouble with some parts of the democratic political base because he hasn't been harsher on them. and, you know, we run into that including, i think my nominee for the most successful unpopular program in the history of america is the t.a.r.p. program. >> the most unsuccessful? >> no the most successful unpopular. >> successful unpopular. >> but the most successful program in -- >> most unpopular successful program in our history. >> so let's move to what's going to be happening in the future. something we talk about a good bit. defense cuts, in a time of $15 trillion national debt. i think i know -- you tell me whether i'm wrong -- i think i know enough about how washington works. that these triggers that were supposed to kick in, supposed to cut defense spending. as we know, the united states of

america spends more money on the defense budget than all other countries on the planet combined. we can squabble maybe it's 50%. but i just know the way washington works and you're starting to hear it now, barney, these defense triggers will be undercut by the white house and republicans. >> there are two things that i think make it somewhat different this time. there really is a pro-deficit reduction party. that's there. and people who are have for the first time -- pete peterson who has been very good -- i spoke to the council on foreign relations about a month ago, pete was there and he's funding a study group to show how you can cut military spending effectively. the way to cut military spending is, first of all, to scale back america's commitments. we don't have to be everywhere, every place, solving every problem. and you know, the people positive we're going to do that and you need the money. there's that general recognition we need to reduce the deficit and that's on the table.

secondly, it's now become a zero sum game. the question is not whether or not you cut defense, but i can invoke the wisdom of the man i believe to be one of the great philosophers of the 20th century, henry -- >> i thought you were going to say pokemon. >> i've got to get in the popular culture mode. he had this great line that was funny but also in the sexist humor of the time. how's your wife? compared to what? and that's really brilliant -- that's what governs me. compared to what? the question is, do you cut defense? compared to what? if you don't cut the military, if you exempt them from the sequestration, then either you make very deep cuts in social security and medicare or you raise taxes or you don't have deficit reduction. now, to many on the republican side, while they might like to do -- and we're talking obviously about social security, medicare cuts that would go

hundreds of billions deeper. and here's what's interesting, and by the way, the rationale is very clear. i've written a letter to leon panetta and released it today. because leon -- it's fascinating. he announced we can't cut the military any more than we've already committed to because we can't make a mistake of hollowing out the military. we hollowed after the military after world war i, world war ii, and the korean war. who was the president after the cold war? >> bill clinton. >> yeah. >> who was his budget director? >> leon panetta. this is the greatest confession in america that he hallollowed out. the budget was balanced on three-legged stool, military cuts, tax cuts, and spending restraints. can you give me any example in the last 20 years when we had a national interest in using military force and it wasn't available? because i think the answer is no. >> no, absolutely not.

and in fact, we're fighting two wars simultaneously. we're going to stay in afghanistan, now, of course, there's talk about going into iran. you're exactly right. the first thing we have to do is we've got to scale back our operations across the globe because right now we're being all things to all people. >> there's a very profound quote from henry kissinger. he did a very thoughtful generous review of -- a book about george -- about a month ago in the "time" magazine and giving kennan credit. here's a sentence from kissinger talking about him. he's paraphrasing, not direct quote but agreeing with the sentiment. kenan deserves recognition for keys of the future. he warned of a time in which america might strain its domestic resilience by goals beyond the physical and psychological capacity of even the most exceptional society.

that's where we are today with this worldwide commitment to be everywhere, to be in asia, to be in africa, to be in latin america, to be -- and i -- i give henry credit for recognizing that. that's very profound. >> and it applies at home to our attitudes to our own lifestyles. it's so great to have you in the studio. >> barney, thanks for being here. and i will say it as a small government conservative, regardless, thank you for your service to america. we really appreciate it and appreciate you -- >> well, i'm making the government a little smaller. >> all right. coming up, it's the next deadline on capitol hill with less than a month to go, congressman jim clyburn jumps in on the fight over tax cut legislation. chuck todd will break down the polling from two key battlegrounds. keep it here on "morning joe." ♪ ♪

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he's been a part of washington, d.c. for over 30 years. he's as establishment as you get. his address is located on the rodeo drive of washington which is k street. his organizations have taken in $100 million this year alone to peddle influence. you don't have to be a lobbyist within the letter of the law in order to influence the outcome of legislation. these special interests aren't paying him $100 million for nothing. >> welcome back to "morning joe." 24 past the hour. a pretty look at washington, d.c. as the sun comes up over the capitol. chief white house correspondent chuck todd. chuck, you heard michele bachmann on the way in. i take it you probably read george will over the weekend and tom coburn also stinging newt and saying he's not the one. what do you make of all of this? >> well, with the title of

front-runner come the attacks, number one, and you look at -- there's a lot of ed that says it's newt that's the front runner now. we shouldn't be using co-front runner tags because outside of new hampshire, where does mitt romney lead him at the moment, number one, two, i think you have a lot of republican -- what was interesting -- and byron york wrote a nice piece using the coburn example and just said there really is this disconnect between insider republicans and conservatives about newt and the grass roots community, right? the grass roots community, the negatives they remember are the infidelity, but all else are the good times in their minds when newt led the republicans to the control of the house. the insiders, they remember everything. you know, they remember how he exited and remember -- they didn't like how he led the house and didn't like -- that's of course the tom coburns of the world and frankly also, the rick santorums of the world who is a candidate and a guy who

benefitted from the '94 surge and was there with newt, served with newt and you can hear some stinging words in him, as well. >> i read over the weekend some reporting on the different surges of the different candidates and how this is somewhat unprecedented to have so many. but let's take a look at iowa where newt gingrich i believe now stands at 26% to romney's 18%. i guess first of all, pick apart how long you think this will last and if it'll grow. >> well, if you take cain out, we were able to anticipate what could happen with cain. second choice of the cain supporters. that 9, you redistribute that and the gingrich lead grows he's at 28% and romney and paul are tied at 19. could it sustain itself? yes, what is the evidence it'll sustain itself? every time one of these folks rises up. but newt does have -- he is winning the portions of the party that you have to win to

win primaries. i go back to the problem that mitt romney has both in iowa and in new hampshire polling, even though he's ahead in new hampshire. large majorities, 60 plus percent in both of republicans do not believe mitt romney is a conservative. they call him a moderate. and i ask you in today's republican party, how many moderates win primaries? >> right. >> you know, chuck, you just look at the iowa numbers by themselves. and to me really doesn't mean a whole lot. because we've had a lot of people leading iowa. i'll tell you last week through the middle of last week and you started seeing south carolina polls. >> yep. >> and florida polls. and you start realizing that newt gingrich really is if he p doesn't set himself on fire, which is a really big if. he's the southern candidate. and you look at the four big contests. >> yep. >> right now if newt gingrich doesn't set himself on fire, he wins iowa, he wins south carolina, and he wins florida.

romney's not even close in any of these states. and unlike rick perry, and unlike michele bachmann, and unlike herman cain, newt has been a national figure for 20 to 25 years. if he disciplines himself, he's going to figure out a way to ride this to victory. >> look, i think you're right because don't forget the establishment wing of the party, which i think right now is scrambling to try to help romney a little bit. you're seeing romney. every day it seems like he rolls out a better endorsement. i think you're going to see more of that over the next week. >> john thune who also worked with newt gingrich. >> right. who tried to fix romney, tried to help romney. but establishment republican voters. their comfort level with newt -- the second choice pick among romney supporters, the top second choice pick was newt. if he is seen as interchangeable among sort of the romney vote

right now, and he wins three of the first four that you describe, which i agree with you, i think that, you know, if, if, if -- you know there's a lot of ifs here, but in this moment that gingrich is in, he's got the inside track to win three of the first four. now, i don't think romney goes away fast. i don't think -- he could lose three of the first four and i think, this is not mitt romney 2008 who will say i'll wait till next time. there is no next time. >> no, no, mark haleprin. and we have been very critical of newt gingrich politically, because, again, i've worked with him and like a lot of other people had problems with his lack of consistency. he's not a conservative. george will's right, he's not a conservative. certainly not a william f. buckley conservative. that said, he has run a national campaign. you remember chuck. he ran a national campaign in 1994. and whatever nasty things were written about newt this past weekend, they were already

written about him, like day in and day out, he was savaged in 1994. and he still -- it was the gingrich revolution. he won that battle. he's been there before. >> and for a lot of voters. >> and survived it. >> he's done one of the biggest things the conservative movement has done, winning back control of the house. >> and not to interrupt, but also, balance the budget for the first time in a generation, balance the budget four years in a row for the first time since the 1920s. no, let's talk about things he really did. fought for welfare reform. he basically forced welfare reform down bill clinton's throat. vetoed it twice, kept sending it to him. this is what conservatives outside the establishment don't know. >> and standing up to george herbert walker bush on no new taxes and breaking with the deal, he help set in motion this notion carried forward by a lot of republicans including george walker bush, no new taxes under

any circumstances. >> but that was also a wife or two ago, before an ethics investigation, paying an ethics fine, before all this money from fannie and freddie, he's a historian, not a lobbyist. >> you may need to work for the romney campaign. >> all i'm saying is i'm following up on what chuck said. those of us who worked with newt understand the flaws and understand he's not a conservative. and understand that he darts around wildly. all we're saying is following upon what chuck said. if you were a conservative in south carolina and you don't know the flaws, you remember him as a guy that balanced the budget, passed welfare reform, and -- >> sure, that's how you remember him. >> that's all you remember? >> the personal side of his life we all know. but it's to the extent he is a front-runner, you're going to hear more. >> do democrats care about bill clinton's personal life in the late 1990s? not at all, did they care about

it in 1992? >> he got past jennifer flowers in 1992 -- >> and other things. >> he didn't divorce two wives while they were sick. >> come on, seriously, i do not want to refight the 1990s, i'm just saying, i would guess you probably contributed a lot of money to bill clinton. if we want to talk policy, let's talk policy, but you've got two guys who personally weren't really disciplined, and i don't think the democrats cared about it any more than republicans. >> and they still don't today. people love bill clinton like obsessively. >> and i don't want to fight the personal. i don't want to talk about the personal of either of these guys, but do you really think that -- that -- >> look -- >> that democrats are going to be able to use that? >> personal problems one side or the other. but you're dealing with a party that prides itself on morals, on family values, on living your life a certain way. and newt just doesn't do that in any way, shape, or form. >> chuck, how is that impacting newt gingrich right now?

>> it's not at all. but when you ask voters about the issue, they say majority say it's unacceptable. but he's -- in many ways a lot of this stuff has been written about him before that you know the war. by the way, i think mitt romney's secret we is going to be ron paul for the long haul. meaning paul sits there and holds his 15%, romney can win a contest if the race is to 40%. he cannot win a contest if the race is to 50. >> think how remarkable it is. it wasn't long ago we were laughing about tiffany's, a greek cruise he took, maybe he'd be fun to have at the debates. chuck just said he had the inside track of 3 of the 4 first states. >> does he have the organization to back it up? >> long-term -- >> i don't know, we'll see. chuck todd, thank you very much. coming up -- congressman jim clyburn straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪

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37 past the hour, a live look at time square. another look at the major headlines this morning. vice president joe biden is in greece right now. as european leaders try to find a solution to the region's massive debt crisis.

despite new efforts by central banks last week, there is ongoing concern that the turmoil overseas could hurt the economy here at home. speaking in athens this morning, the vice president offered an optimistic outlook. >> i think that out of difficult times, opportunities present themselves. and with a lot of hard work and a little bit of luck, a year from now we will have not only weathered this crisis, but even be stronger position. >> secretary geithner is also meeting with european officials. he's sitting down with his counterparts in germany, france, and italy. coming up, congressman jim clyburn right here on "morning joe." road trip buddy. let's put some music on.

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where's the backbone in washington to actually pay for these extensions in the year in which the money spent? we are in very serious trouble. we continue to kick the can down the road. we lack the backbone and courage in washington to make the hard choices now. nobody's making hard choices now. what they're doing is promising the benefit and no pain now. it always comes later. >> republicans want the extension of the payroll tax cuts paid for. we're going to talk about that. joining us now is democratic representative from south carolina, congressman jim clyburn. very good to have you back on the show. you need to tell the folks we're coming. tell them to get ready. >> thank you very much. i was there over the weekend. >> oh, good, really? okay. well, we'll be there. before we get to the payroll tax cuts, i'm curious, you've worked with newt gingrich, what do you

make of his surge in the polls? and what do you make of the potential of working with him again. can you envision that? >> no, i cannot quite envision that. >> can't see it at all. >> but he is -- but listen -- >> something interesting. >> yeah? why? >> because i think that newt is always good to listen to. not quite as good to work with. he tends to fly off the handle, he would say almost anything to get a charge. i'm sure that he's not serious when he says all of these things. i remember at a susan smith issue here in south carolina, a young lady drowned her two sons, newt blamed that on congressional democrats. you know, it's the most amazing things that he would just say things. and then he'd figure out some

way to justify it later. so i don't think the voters in the republican primary are going to reward him with a nomination. though he will probably win in south carolina if he does well in iowa because south carolinians tend to like to go contribute to what happens in new hampshire. i don't think he'll do well in new hampshire. >> mark haleprin? >> congressman clyburn, can you tell us a story about newt gingrich that you experienced firsthand that you think illustrates the kind of person he is? >> well, there are so many. i'll just show you the one -- susan smith, that was beyond with me. watching newt's rhetoric when he was a speaker. the fact that he always tended to reach out and work with people that he considered to be the underdog, yet he would go

right on tv the next morning and denigrate their existence. how do you talk about poor school children the way he talked about poor school children after going around touring with reverend al sharpton with these schools and seeing how energetic these young people were. appear with them on tv in the evenings, yet you wouldn't get any of that as you're watching him operate in this primary. it's kind of interesting as to what kind of personality this is. and i cannot see him being president of the united states. >> steve rattner? >> maybe we should turn to the situation on the hill in terms of the legislation and the extension of the unemployment insurance benefits as well as the payroll tax cut. obviously there's now another impasse between the democrats and the republicans. so how do you see that get broken? do you see it get broken?

what's your outlook for those two pieces of legislation? >> well, it's got to happen. there's no way in the world we're going to allow this big tax increase to take place on working people. the payroll tax holiday as proposed by the president, i think is a good way to go. it looks as if the senate is not going to approve a surcharge on millionaires or on income above $1 million. but i think what we ought to do is take a look at what cbo has done with the overseas contingency account. i don't know why we won't use that as not just for the payroll tax extension, but for unemployment insurance, as well. as well as doing the sustainable growth rate. we keep -- you know we've got to fix that. if we don't, next year you would see a big decrease in reimbursement to doctors and you'll have more doctors leaving

the field and not taking care of medicare patients. so it was good for ryan, they got it in the ryan budget and thought it was a good thing to do at that point. why don't we put it in now? because it's much more than is necessary to pay for these things. so we can do this very easily if we'll get honest about finding a way. >> willie? >> congressman, what do you think is the most likely solution there? that's your proposal. you have republicans who have said they will not go for the surtax on millionaires to pay for the payroll tax. so somewhere in between those two things, there will be hopefully for the country middle ground. where do you think the middle ground is? >> well, i understand that senator reid is going to come out with what he calls a compromise today. and i look forward to that because it looks as if whatever happens would have to start in the senate because we're not going to get this start in the

house. because speaker boehner knows full well it has to be done. but i don't think he's going to get the kind of support he needs to do anything from his conference. so whatever senator reid comes out with i'll be interested in looking at. but i do believe i'm very serious when i say we ought to look at the overseas contingency account. the headlines in the papers this morning about the significant savings we're going to get. the president has now had the ceremony, taken us out of iraq, and he's sticking to his proposal to draw down in afghanistan. that's a good way to do it. >> all right. congressman jim clyburn, always good to see you. thank you very much. good luck with everything. >> thank you show much for having me. coming up, it's our football frenzy with roger bennett. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. the employee of the month isss...

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>> with the passion of a poet. what's he going to do? oh, my word, that is

extraordinary! >> that just about it explains it all. >> not only were you in the david lynch hotel scene, you also provided the call there. >> they called me just before they filming the thing and i did that in my bathroom in my toilet. >> now we know the rest of the story. >> a plan and a place for everything. 232 times and never come close to scoring. that is the only goal he ever scored. >> i can promise you that you have just, once again, confused our viewers. >> soccer show host on sirius radio and the man who made the call in the promo, roger bennett. rog roger, we liverpool fans were wondering when new castle would finally fall? >> they did.

chelsea traveled to new castle. the stadium is a fearsome bear pit and in the fifth minute the referee crumbled. mika, he's the one that looks like, the referee had a cowardly moment and the stayed on. when was he last good? >> oh, my gosh. it's been a year. >> when ben stiller was last funny. >> oh, stop that. come on. >> and chelsea, the young england hopeful with a little shuffle of his feet poking the ball as he cuts inside, easy winners. >> the best team right now in the epl, man city, they had an easy run of it. >> richmond pleading manchester city. there was less a football match and open the scoring with this

little hop and a class ego. 4-1 when mario baratelli took this ball and then look at this. he used his shoulder. and then his trademark no celebration. he hates scoring goals. it's just a job, derives no pleasure from it. it's a day of work. a day of work of which he gets paid $280,000 a week. >> to bring in the 60th minute and be red carded. >> liverpool will play chelsea next week. we don't talk about them a lot tottenham. >> they are unstoppable at the moment. this season few teams are more beautiful to watch. bail the welch wonder is at the heart of everything that is

good. ten straight wins for spurs now. joe, they are third. >> they are third and not only third, but let's look at the table really quickly. man city on top, and man u second and tottenham third and actually they played one less game. >> later this afternoon chelsea -- >> just stop it. >> watching it in that hotel room. >> no, liverpool is going to win this afternoon. halprint and i are going to drag you across the pond right before we're in manchester, new hampshire, we're going to go to manchester, england. >> it's not in new hampshire. it's in manchester. >> it's a different manchester, but, still, from -- >> man city versus man u. >> let's do it. america understands what we're talking about. are you coming, mika? >> yes, of course. we're there. >> by the way, we had the euro

2012 draw, which is going to be poland, poland and also -- >> england going to be based in the beatable town. >> i want to go. >> france and england in the same group. >> we will beat them, again. >> roger bennett, thank you. coming up, the life and legacy of iconic sports broadcaster howard coset. [ male announcer ] imagine facing the day

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>> these untrue allegations continue to be spined in the media and then the court of public opinion so as to create a cloud of doubt over me and this campaign and my family. that spin hurts. it hurts my wife, it hurts my family, it hurts me and it hurts the american people because you are being denied solutions to our problems. >> good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast as you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." back with us on set we have mark

halprin and steve ratner. >> let's talk really quickly about herman cain before we get into the news. >> it's just that he told supporters that his claims of sexual harassment, of course, this woman that claimed there was a 13-year affair had been a distraction and, ultimately, forced him to call it quits. here's how he put it at a press conference that was with lots of fan fare. take a look. >> that's false accusations about me continue, they have side tracked and distracted my ability to present solutions to the american people. i've been the very first to hone up to any mistakes that i have made. even if the political elites don't think i handle it exactly the way the political elites handled it, i handled it my way because that's the type of person that i am.

>> all right, so, supporters say herman cain will now throw his support behind newt gingrich. >> what does it mean, mark halprin. the cain train derailed. >> i never saw this coming. well, when he announced he was running for president. >> let's not spend a lot of time on it. >> put it in the cabinet. >> really bad. >> looking back. >> oh, so short sided. cain's out, what does it mean? >> gingrich has a chance to consolidate the anti-romney vote, the tea party vote sxwh and it's great news for newt gingrich if he can seize the moment and some stories that said gingrich is going to pick up cain's organization. but adding nothing to nothing, but gingrich is a momentum candidate now and an anti-romney candidate.

>> i was going to say, though, that's exactly what cain was a month ago when we went through a list of polls that showed everybody ahead last week. that's what cain was and bachmann was and the question is, how long can newt stay? he is a southern candidate and, all good things come to the south these days. alabama, lsu, newt. >> moon pies. >> moon pies. >> he's also got time on his side now. you have 29 days left until iowa and two of those weeks are holiday weeks where you kind of get lost in things. i don't think there is time for the bubble to burst. he's where he wants to be. >> for now. but it's just fascinating. and you look at newt gingrich, he does have a chance. >> well, he has the organizat n organization, which some would argue they're scrambling now at this point according to some reports. >> i was looking at actually willie and i had a thought and i

lost it because i got side tracked with football. i was going to say, a really bad weekend for mitt romney, as well. this brett barin continues to reverberate inside fox news that that's extraordinarily important to republican candidates. you always hear about the washington primary, that's what we used to have. no, it's a fox primary now and mitt romney is really been hurt inside the fox news because he couldn't handle basic questions he should have been able to answer. >> they weren't unfair questions. >> they were basic. >> they were good questions. >> brett's a good interviewer and a fair journalist and he has been asking questions that were asked many times. the way he handled that one move where he gave the nervous laugh and crossed his legs was very revealing and then giving the story of romney to go to his holding room to complain about

the line of questioning. didn't look good. >> mitt romney and jon huntsman who don't like to be compared, i think both of these guys have made some really tactical errors. jon huntsman wouldn't call himself a conservative for a very long time and that hurt him. mitt romney has decided he's going to stay in a cocoon and that's really hurt him. so, when he does have an interview, even at fox news with brett who, again, asks him basic questions, he can't handle those. >> too much is on the line. let's just take a look at the polls because with herman cain out, the latest nbc/marist poll shows newt gingrich with 26% support in the hawkeye state. a 21-point from october. mitt romney and ron paul are in a statistical tie. about eight points behind. >> we have seen volatility, only

one candidate that has done a slow, solid, gradual rise and only one candidate that you know is not going to collapse and he's right in the center, ron paul, we gave him no respect because everybody screams and yells ron paul. you see all the signs and then he ends up getting 7%, 8%, 9%. that's now doubled. he's at 17%. in some polls, mark halperin, he's at 21%. ron paul's support is not falling and i would almost patine money on newt gingrich stubbing his toe in iowa and ron paul winning that state. >> here is where i go having my twitter feed explode. i think a lot of people who support ron paul have no idea what it means to go to an iowa caucus. a lot of them have never gone to a caucus before. going to a caucus is not like voting in a primary, you have to go at a particular time. >> are you comparing to howard dean in 2004? >> i am, indeed.

he has a lot of money and they do have a decent organization, but i'm skeptical he is going to perform at the caucus at the level that he's polling with one possible caveat, which is turnout could be low. i've been talking to a lot of people in iowa, how big is this going to be? a lot of enthusiasm about beating the president, on the other hand, no organization. >> let's say, though, you're a small government conservative like me. you, obviously, have concerns with mitt romney and i'm talking about in iowa. jon huntsman is not campaigning in iowa, take him off, for the most part. mitt romney, where is he this week? so, you have conservatives like me that have been grasping at that and then you look at all these other flawed caucuses. if i went to the iowa caucuses every four years, you know what i'd do, i'd support ron paul and i'd send a message. i think that may be happening out there. >> of all the flawed candidates, ron paul is one of the flawed, if not the most flawed in terms

of abolishing the feds and the rest of the libertarian policies. it's not serious. >> if you're a liberal, then, yes, you would be fraud. i think it sends a great message. i tell you what i'm not in favor of. i'm not in favor of the fed being one of the most powerful institutions in the country and the planet and having almost no transparency until somebody like ron paul came along and demanded transparency. i think that's a positive. i think ron paul is a positive counterweight to a lot of big government spending and a lot of, you know, look what he said about fannie and freddie. look what he said about the banks before anybody else was saying about it. i think it's foreign policy, i agree with him while we shouldn't be in all the wars. extreme in places. if i wanted to send a message, ron paul is a good way to send a message. >> he is a counterweight, he's

not the center. he's not the guy that is going to be the nominee. >> most people who caucus don't go to send a message. >> let's look at new hampshire. romney is in the lead. romney is in the lead with 39% and he dropped six points from october. gingrich gained 19 points in this state and now 16 points behind romney and ron paul in third trailing gingrich by seven points. the same nbc/marist polling looking without herman cain. cain supporters were asked to name their second pick. gingrich jumps two points in the revised poll while mitt romney, ron paul and rick perry each gain one point. >> so, again, there you have new hampshire, ron paul sitting up at 16%, 17%. i'm not riding the ron paul train, i'm just saying there is a lot of volatility, but one candidate that has had a slow and steady gain. it's been ron paul. >> caucus is a bigger challenge. the challenge for gingrich in

new hampshire is to get some of that ron paul vote and hope that nobody else grows because romney is strong in new hampshire, strongest state, but he's still not going to get 60% of the vote. there's a lot of vote to be had there. >> i want to get to the jobs numbers so you need to zip it for one second. the obama white house is riding some positive economic news into the weekend with the november jobs report showing unemployment dipping to 8.6%. we showed you that on friday. the lowest level since early 2009. >> i said that was great news and i went on my twitter feed and i said, how great, the unemployment rate drops by 0.5%. i am excited for americans out of work. i got savidged. they say you're a liberal. no, i love america. i like people working. >> it's good news for the president. i mean -- >> well, i was hoping it was good news for americans out of work, but, apparently not. >> you got to read into the numbers. the "new york times" editorial this weekend looks at it this way and it says, in part, this. properly understood, the new

figures reveal moredestress in market than about real improvement in jobs prospects. most of the decline in november unemployment rate was not because jobless people found new work, it is because 315,000 people dropped out of the work force. a reflection of extraordinarily weak demand by employers for new workers. >> that is depressing. >> on "meet the press" yesterday the rnc chairman was really attacking the president. a lot of very well-prepared lines very well-delivered, if i might add. i'm not sure it was fair. he had a good performance -- >> he would be going, way to go. let's hear the slogans. roll them. >> the reason the actual percentage of people filing with the department of labor went down is because 300,000 people

threw up their hands and said, guess what, this economy is so bad, i'm not going to file a piece of paper with the labor. >> this is what is so frustrating about the unemployment number, it's -- we have to figure out a better way to do it. i see 8.6 and i think, great news for america. people are getting back to work. it sounds, if you read "new york times" editorial like it's just the opposite. >> it's somewhere in between, actually. people get focused on the unemployment number and it tells you a piece of the story, but as you just talked about, doesn't tell you the whole story. 120,000 new jobs created. that is good, better than it could have been but because as "the times" said a lot of people dropped out. >> why does that magic number, if we're going to go towards recovery, how many jobs we need to add every month? what number do we around this table need to be looking at? >> you need to be looking at

300,000. 300,000 is the number of people basically used to say what will bring the unemployment rate down on sustained basis. >> so, 300,000. we were at 120,000. so, actually, ends up a bad month. >> it's a bad month. remember, also, the government is a drag on this because at the state, federal and local level, the government is cutting jobs every month. >> we're in the crunch. let's go through the charts. you think there is some good news. >> there is a little bit of good news. that's why the president has done better in the polls and better in the online betting markets because some of the economic news is better. when you talk about jobs. one place people look at are the new claims for unemployment insurance. people going out freshly looking for unemployment insurance. that peaked back during the height of the recession during 2009 and declining reasonably steadily and now hit 395,000. below 400,000 is generally where people say the labor market is

improving. so, you can see we're below that mark and we were below it a little bit back in the spring and then the summer when people were talking about double-dip recessions, it had bounced back up. so, this suggests that the labor market should continue to improve. whether it will get to that 300,000 number, i think, certainly is more problematic. >> wow. >> so, so, let's look at leading indicators and what can you tell us? >> leading indicators are exactly what they sound like they are. >> you're telling us they are leading indicators. >> they are going to lead you somewhere. >> people are buying. >> when they're higher, they will lead you to good places. >> looking pretty good. >> this 0.9% is the highest it's been since february. 12 different indicators everything from housing indicators to hours worked. in the summer when we were worried about double dip, it dropped back down, again. basically back in the zone we were in when we were covrecover.

>> to the argument at hand which are the republicans who were running for president saying the current president ruined the economy and the present administration saying we saved it. what do your numbers tell you? something in the middle, as well? >> this is the quintessential argument. half empty, half full. the economy is certainly better than it was when the president came. if we want to lcharok, we can l consumer confidence. you guys can remember we talked about during the debt debacle the biggest drop in consumer confidence over two months after every disaster except for katrina. bigger than 9/11 and so forth. you now had this rather sharp increase. back up to 56. so, this is good news because consumers are, again, feeling a little bit better about things of course, until congress does something to make them feel less good. but for the moment, they're feeling more optimistic. you see that in the holiday sales numbers. >> holiday sales may be up. what about auto sales and i

always look at auto sales and you're part of it. >> he is a car czar. >> i know he is a car czar. i'm my dad's son. when ford and gm are doing well, i'm feeling a little bit better about america. when detroit is doing well, i think there is hope. how are we doing on that front? >> we can make you feel a little bit better there. car sales also started recovering. back in the worst of it they were down in the 9.3 million range and now they have been climbing steadily up -- just hit 13.6. >> there is a huge spike in july of '09. explain what happened in july of '09. >> cash for clunkers. >> i was going to say, this is evidence, for those that say that the government cannot move the economy. a lot of people hated cash for clunkers and i know i'll get killed from conservatives for saying it. instead of having the federal government saying we're going to buy you a car and give it to you. no, we'll give you the incentive to go out and cash for clunkers.

>> it cost a couple billion dollars and it did more to help the economy than any other spendture of a similar size. coming up next, wasn't long ago when national poll husband rick perry surging ahead of the republican field. so, what happened other than that oops moment? "vanity fair" lays out what they call the fatal flaws of the texas governor. also this hour, he was the dominant voice of sports broadcasting for 20 years. a new book sheds new light on the legend of howard cosell. >> can't wait for that. first, let's go to bill karins for a check on the forecast. >> fog has been plaguing areas the big cities in the east this morning. begin to lift and get a little bit better, but still some fog advisories through mid-morning from d.c. northwards and southern connecticut. temperatures there, ridiculously warm november into december. temperatures in the 60s in those cities. rain is on the way for buffalo, pittsburgh and also the ohio valley and cleveland southwards.

memphis nailed by heavy rain along with all our friends in little rock. as we go throughout the day, too, a lot of cold air and snow in areas like new mexico. northwest waking up with us, chilly but no rain, at least for now. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. ♪ i'm burning out this useless telephone ♪ ♪ my hair is gone ♪ cheap cologne ♪ motor home ♪ i'm the rocket man! [ both ] ♪ rocket man ♪ burning out his fuse up here alone ♪ burning out his fuse up here alone? ahh. [ male announcer ] crystal clear fender premium audio. one of many premium features available on the all-new volkswagen passat. the 2012 motor trend car of the year. ♪ and i think it's gonna be a long, long time ♪

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>> commerce, education and the,

what's the third one there? >> department of energy. you know, we all lost our train of thought before, but not many have done it on national tv. if you want a slick debater, i'm obviously not your guy. if you want to clean house in washington with a balanced budget amendment, a flat tax and a part-time congress, i'm your man. i'm rick perry and, what's that line, again? i'm rick perry, and i approve this message. >> you know, i lived a purpose-driven life and my purpose was never to be president of the united states, but our country's in trouble and our country needs us working together to take our country back. so, i hope, again, that you'll take a look at my plan and give me that second opportunity. >> rick perry here with us now, special correspondent for "vanity fair" brian writes about the rise and fall of presidential candidate rick perry. what on earth happened to rick perry, writes brian, when he

admits his candidacy he vaulted to the top of the republican field. by mid-october perry's poll numbers had plunged to as low as 6%. perry is a classic instance of the candidate who is almost literally perfect on paper, for republican insurgents. all he had to do was walk and talk and chew gum and he would have won. this race was perry's to lose. he proved he can't walk, talk and chew gum. >> or he's forgotten how. you know, perry, i think he and his people thought they had an opportunity to come in in a field in which they didn't identify strong conservative that he, perry, would be the strong conservative. that it appeared america so wanted. i think what we found was for a number of reasons rick perry was not ready for primetime. >> we could have talked about the rise and fall of newt gingrich. could there not be a second act for rick perry. >> there could be a second act for rick perry.

the problem is, i wonder how much money is left for that and i wonder if america hasn't already come up with its opinion about perry in a way that it has about gingrich. >> there was a fair amount of opinion in texas in political circles that perry would be a formidable candidate. they watched him win a lot of races and they saw an opening. what has been the reaction amonkest people people in osten? >> as you know, mark, people are shocked in texas because even those who consider themselves his enemy down there are shocked because he was such a formidable campaigner in texas. unfortunately, we know now what it takes to get elected in texsis not what it takes to get elected in this country. perry famously avoided debates and did as few as possible and we now know why. the nicest thing we can say is that the man is not good on his feet. what is closest to the truth is he's not the sharpest pencil in

the pack and i think that has been exposed. >> why is he still in it? does his campaign think he can win? >> i don't know, you'd have to ask him. >> what do you think the mindset is? >> i think the mindset is they raise $15 million early on and they haven't run through the money yet. i think when they do, which will be shortly. hard questions will begun to be asked. however, i don't see them getting out before iowa and my guess is they can get up over ten points over iowa and they will lose in new hampshire and rick perry in a best-case basis comes down to what happens in south carolina. >> so, marx, newt gingrich is a nightmare for rick perry. he cuts perry in south carolina, cuts into him in iowa and florida and suddenly not the southern conservative. >> hilarious personal element to this, which is gingrich, when perry wasn't running, his campaign manager went to work for newt good and they were a big part when newt looked like

he was done and they went back to perry and now they're running the perry campaign. they knew gingrich intimately and saw him collapse and they have not been able to manage rick perry over newt gingrich. >> willie, those debate performances, unfortunately, for rick perry, just expose him. it's like he's up there alone and, i mean, you got a situation where people feel so, even his opponents feel sorry for him. he's so bad in the debates. >> we joke about there being two debates every week and it's ridiculous. they do serve a purpose and that is to expose the candidates to the american people about what they know and how they handle themselves in the spotlight. mark, a guy we know well, along the lines, as soon as the public starts to pity you, you've lost. the public has started to pity rick perry. >> his only real chance was that he could somehow hurt off the lesser candidates. those cains and bachmann and

gingriches and once they fell he could reap their votes. >> let's talk about the back surgery. when did perry have back surgery? >> early july. >> in july. i had back surgery in, i'm serious about this, i had back surgery in '99, but in 2004 i was down. i couldn't walk for four months. and i had to take medication. i mean, i was in extraordinary pain. anybody that has this type of back surgery and pain and i don't say this. you say there's a theory going around in austin about one of the reasons he's stumbling around and he's foggy headed is because of this back surgery and pain medication that he's taking. which, by the way, anybody that's had back surgery like me knows, that's totally legitimate. there's no way i could have run for office four months after back surgery. >> there is theory and speculation and it's smart people and informed speculation.

this was serious back surgery that took place in early july. he declared barely six weeks later and seven weeks after that we see the man's cowboy boots are gone and orthopedic shoes and a back brace and i think we also see some instances in which slurred speech and things that would suggest he's not 100% in control of his faculties. but you talk to people in austin who have watched the man in action, this is not the same rick perry, for whatever reason. >> not to make this about me. i think this is important, no, for rick perry. when i get out of congress it was 2001 and i had my surgery in '99 and yet one of the things that are realized after my back surgery i could not do, it was physically impossible i could not stand in a reception. when you stand up, especially lower to mid-back pain. it's just like, i would walk out of these receptions and it felt

like somebody took an aluminum baseball bat and just pounded me and i wouldn't, like the next day i would be hobbling around. the things he has to do out on the campaign trail, mark -- >> mark knows. >> you know, you've had back pain. but the things that he has to do, even standing up any orthopedic surgeon will tell you, it's horrible for your back for long periods of time. >> when they got in this race, dave carney and his other advisors said, there may not be time to do this. we don't have a question of error. at a minimum the back thing whether it impaired performance or not. at a minimum t was a distraction that cut into something where, again, they said they had no margin of error. >> so, he's going around wearing a back brace. i mean, how bad is it? >> we don't really know. the campaign will tell you it's not that bad because he's back to jogging. jogging doesn't necessarily mean

the man isn't in pain, we just don't know. you're unlikely to get a straight answer on it from this campaign. >> the bush people don't like him. >> no. >> george w. bush people don't like him. any evidence karl rove is taking a little joy at his fall? >> oh, a little evidence, i'd say. just turn on the other channel. you'll see it from time to time. look, if you can look for all sorts of answers and we retail a few of them in the article, but i think the simple truth is, there's rarely any love loss between a governor who replaces his -- it's fairly simple. we see that dynamic all the time. >> bryan borough, thank you so much. the article is in the new issue of "vanity fair." up next we'll talk to chris fowler about the big rematch. alabama versus lsu. [ male announcer ] humana and walmart have teamed up

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i love this song. >> how did this happen? out of no where. he shows up. >> i just crash other networks. >> yeah. >> we make room for you. let's just pick up on the conversation we were just having at the break. talking about alabama, lsu playing for the bcs national

title. they are probably the best two teams but if you're an oklahoma state fan this morning, you're furious. >> the blind resume if you put oklahoma state against alabama, they have more wins against winning teams and more wins against teams in the top 25 and their loss is worse. some people choose to focus, joe, on the one negative. how bad you can be when you're at your worst and most distracted and not how good you could be. i'm not advocating oklahoma state i have alabama number two behind lsu, as well. >> that said, i think we can agree. alabama number two state in the nation. oklahoma state after what they did on saturday night deserved a shot, as well as alabama and lsu deserved a shot at the national championship. how do you do it? >> you have at the very minimum a four-team minimum. a plus one. playing the four bowl games and the two winners of the two semifinal games would play the week after. seems pretty simple to me.

>> moving that way because of the sec dominance and other conferences are moving that way. >> other conferences are reluctant in the past. sort of reluctant to embrace the idea of change. sec was putting it forward. sec is prosperring from the current system. how many people prosper from the system want to see the change. we'll see if the change from the sec erodes a little bit. >> willie, you know there will be backlash against the sec. they've won, now, it will be six years in a row. i think the sec will be short sided to not support the seeded system. >> chris touched on it, though, it's money. if you can't help our viewers explain why something that makes so much sense had so little chance of actually happening. and march madness is arguably the greatest spectacle in sports. every other sport has a playoff. what is it about this one sliver of college sports that refuses a playoff? >> very good question, willie. that's what we ask ourselves.

if you follow politics or finance, those who have control and have power and money don't usually want to give that up. the bowl system has been good for college football. the bowl system are those who are anti-playoff want to keep in place. it has a lot of at trib buttes. >> they tweak the bcs. it has evolved and gotten better but still falls short. if you can pull it off in division i, ii and iii, you can pull it off at the highest level. >> what is wrong with keepal the bowl structure and make those the playoff games. you still get the money from the bowl game, but then game means something. >> all the other bowl games that exist now that have nuthing to do with a championship -- >> exactly, of course. >> i think you rotate the two semifinal game among the four major bowls. a monster game where a winner emerges and goes in place for it all and the other years your regular bowl matchup. it's not that revolutionary and i think it chould happen.

>> let's look at it. we've whined about the past, let's just put it behind us, as much as the past hurts me. i remember we were watching. it's crazy. i always tell my son, you know what, these are teenage kids playing with a ball. it's not the end of the world if your teeam loses. that said, in our household, we never do this. we're busy, we have kids. lsu/alabama morning we turned on the tv set at like 7:00 in the morning. we watched you guys all day and i heard you say that in your 20, 25 years in doing this you had never seen the intensity, one of the highest rated games in a long time. we have a remark now. do you think that intensity will be there, again? >> absolutely. it's in lsu's backyard. the sec team has always benefitted from the frenzy of support. two sec teams and bama will bring and i don't know if it

will be the same kind of game. not everybody loved a 9-6 game with five field goals and four missed field goals. >> a lot more points in this game. >> i hope so. i like the defensive game and conservatives would like that game and others maybe wanted to see more points and that was the best case gundy could make. you want to see that game again? some people doubt whether that offense could score in the 30s against the sec defense. that's a very open question. i hope there's more points. i loved defensive. a game when you held your breath every snap because every play was meaningful. if you had one turnover or one mistake, it could cost you the game. i would like to see more unrestrained offense. >> another subject on which joe is completely unbias, the heisman race. trent richardson of alabama. >> how could he be bias against a pensacola native? >> checks all the boxes. >> serious. >> what kind of a shot does a guy, who i think perhaps should win robert griffin.

>> he's got momentum and the wow factor, which no other candidate has to that same degree. he started the season with a bang. baylor upset tcu which upset some people. went crazy against texas. a defense that doesn't give up big plays to anybody all year and he torched them from the second play on. and i think baylor has never had a guy in this position. he's a great role model, spokesman for college football, as is andrew luck and richardson. i think it's a three-guy race. all be in new york as finalists, possibly joined by another guy or two. they'll announce that very soon. the voting closes at 5:00 today. but it would be amazing to have the baylor heisman guy that basically came from no where in the last month. >> i loved his post-game interview. he said, i think i just won the heisman. i am pretty sure i just locked it up. >> proving that i'm unfair -- >> and unbiassed, right? >> i had somebody y won't mention his name that i talked to yesterday. a big, big name in college sports saying you guys wouldn't

have been anywhere close except for your branding scarborough. talking about alabama. i think he was wrong, but in this heisman hunt, there's no doubt. richardson has a big, big advantage because of the branding. because he wears the crimson and white. >> he's got the sec competition. everything he does is considered legit. you don't question stats by an sec player against that defense. you wonder about some other guys and that level of competition. you don't have that question with an alabama guy. if he was in another conference, he would have gone crazy and got bigger stats. just hypotheticals. >> who is the front? >> well, i host the show, i'm not going to tell you who i vote for. i don't like to make predictions. i think griffin, if you believe in the straw polls, got a lot of late momentum and the wow factor and considered the best player and richardson has the bama factor and i think it's those three guys. >> you know who has to be there, seriously. honeyback.

that guy, if you want to talk about one player, one player that has shaken games up, just at the top level. that guy plays, that guy plays on a plain separate from everybody else. >> he's 5'9" which is fun to see a guy dominate a big-guy sport. he had the one-game suspension in the middle of the season which broke his momentum. >> he also had a cheap shot at the end of the alabama game that was unnecessary. looked like an oakland raider from the 1970. >> that didn't cost his vote as much as -- >> the auto zone liberty bowl. vanderbilt, cincinnati bear cats, who do you like? there's a right answer to this, by the way. >> i will take, i'll take cincinnati. >> oh, my goodness! >> mika giving this a tremendous amount of thought. >> are you sure. >> the last 12 hours it has not been on the tip of the brain. >> i usually force other guys to

make predictions. >> and by the way, by the way, one blaring thing in the polls. we're talking about 2 and 3. how is stanford ahead of oregon? >> one loss, two losses. >> come on, though. >> not on my ballot. one loss -- >> had oregon tore. >> don't lose late if you're oregon. >> we have to go, thank you so much. will you come back? >> sure. coming up, what is next for the stock market after one of the best weeks in years. business before the bell with tyler matheson is next. capital one's new cash rewards card

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tyler matheson live at cnbc headquarters. let's start with europe, tyler. >> yeah, mika, for the 3,000th time this year there is another summit at the end of the week. today the german chancellor merkel and french president sarkozy are meeting trying to put in place a mechanism that will enforce financial discipline on some of the wayward countries of europe. already the italians, under their new prime minister, mr. monti have gone forward or moving forward with a plan that would cut something like 2% of gdp out of the italian federal government's budget over three years. compare that with the deal that we were not able to achieve here in the united states, which was a 1% cut over ten years and you could see the level of austerity that is at play there. europe, the stock market's there this morning doing very nicely and most of them up 0.75%

compared to paris, frankfurt and london and here in the united states, the stock markets each pointing to a higher open to capitalize on what went on last week. >> real quickly, tyler, before you go. characterize the jobs report. the numbers look good on the face of it? >> yes, they were good politically for the president. the unemployment rate which is really the headline number down to 8.6% and, yet, again, more jobs created in the economy. but 120,000 jobs is not really a gangbuster's pace. it basically only absorbs the number of people who were coming into the job market. but, again, it's been a long streak of months in which jobs were added as opposed to being subtracted and that is good. >> all right, tyler matheson, always good to have you. thank you very much. >> thanks. more "morning joe" in just a minute. beauty, huh? it's dependable.

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mika, i know how you keep your finger on the pulse of reality television. >> oh, my gosh, i watch it all the time. >> you know about the show on tlc called "virgin diaries." it's the last week.

you saw a clip that was circulating around of a young couple about to get married who'd never even kissed each other. this was going to be their first kiss at the wedding. last night the show was aired and we got our look at their first kiss. >> i now declare you to be husband and wife, brian, you may kiss your bride. >> really? i love you. >> i love you, too. >> what in the world? it's like a bird eating a worm out of somebody's mouth. what is going on there? >> like the mama bird feeding the chick. they will get better. >> like rick perry's first debate.

>> wait, did you see that? what do you think? >> "the virgin diaries" tlc. >> we had two great moments here. that moment for you and pokemon. >> quoting pokemon by name without a wink. >> i think pokemon said it. i think pokemon said it best. holy cow. ze in there? oh, there's a prize, all right. [ male announcer ] inside every box of cheerios are those great-tasting little o's made from carefully selected oats that can help lower cholesterol. is it a superhero? kinda. ♪

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hey, welcome back to "morning joe." time to talk about what we learned today. >> i learned from bryan borough for rick perry could be the real thing. >> i learned three quick things. the three most undercovered stories in news. mitt romney going to play hard in iowa. what is mitt romney going to do about newt gingrich and, three, why isn't there more exploration over whether rudolph the red-nosed reindeer cause bullying? >> i still don't get that. >> little tease of what's coming. >> you took mine, the last one. >> i love rudolph the red-nosed reindeer. the bullying, so sad. >> what i found, really, i heard this tired, tired narrative for years with the republican party. but we're simpletons. that we don't read books. i mean, we don't read books. herman cain put that to rest.