i think the picture is pretty clear. according to one u.s. army officer who went running past me at a full trot, he says that it appears that a bomb was detonated at the heliport. the heliport is a helicopter landing area next to the pentagon adjacent to the e-ring. the offices nearest the heliport area are u.s. army reserve officers and army receiver offices are located there. but as you can see, it appears to be a pretty significant blast. to give you some perspective, we are almost on the opposite side of the building, the world's largest office building, and as i have reported to you, we could feel the building shake and the windows rattle. as i was in the hallway just a few moments ago, i could smell

an acrid kind of smoke, the kind that almost what you would smell when a fluorescent light goes bad, that kind of ballast smell. authorities are clearing the building. >> u.s. intelligence sources are confirming the reports that one of the planes was a hijacked flight, an american flight from boston to los angeles.

i don't know if you can hear the sirens outside right now, but it appears that in what -- i think that people here in the

building are already describing as a highly sophisticated coordinated attack, not only against the world trade center, but against the pentagon and u.s. military right here in washington. >> mik, tell me again, i worked at the pentagon as well. and it is a huge building and miles and miles of offices. at what location did this seem to have detonated? >> it is at the heliport, the heliport which is as you sit in the pentagon, you have the potomac river and washington, d.c., on one side, and the heliport is located almost exactly on the opposite side of the building. along one of the highways. easily accessible, even though they have increased security here significantly at the pentagon within the past couple of years, that area --

>> i want to mention to you that we are hearing, again, unconfirmed reports that this was the result of a plane crashing in the area as well. >> reporter: i have no idea, katie. all i know is that people who were in the building who came running from that part of the building thought it was a bomb of some kind. according to chris brown, my colleague who just came in, it appears that whatever it was, and perhaps it was a plane, katie, if those are the initial reports, crashed into or the damage is on the roof of the building at the heliport side of the pentagon which is just opposite of the potomac river as i just said. >> we are looking at the white house, mik, because we're learning that there have been some evacuations from the white house. i'm assuming that everyone is being evacuated from the pentagon? >> reporter: well, nobody's given us the official word yet. but i think that is probably a

safe bet. thank goodness that was a helicopter that just flew by. i'm just a little nervous right now when you hear aircraft go past. they have in fact, evacuated that portion of the building. usually they have sirens going off in the building alerting you to the fact that it's time to get out. i haven't heard those yet, but judging by the pictures, it is clear that that part of the building, that is not damaged at least, has been evacuated. like i said, in the hallway, it was pandemonium. >> uh-huh. >> reporter: people were rushing from their offices, rushing outside. >> and you are in your office at the pentagon right now reporting to us? >> reporter: i am in the office, but i'm at the opposite side of where this crash occurred. >> all right. why don't you see if you can gather more information and please be careful, and we're going to go to matt who's going to be talking with jamie. >> yes, thank you. i am joined by tom brokaw and we

are going to recap on what's been going in washington, and new york as well. we want to go to jamie with some more information. jamie? >> reporter: matt i just want to tell you that u.s. intelligence sources are confirming the reports that one of the planes was a hijacked flight, american flight, from boston los angeles. they are also now looking into what is going on at the pentagon, and they don't have any details, but they have now put government buildings around the city of washington on a heightened state of alert. i think that part of that is happening formally, but obviously people are seeing what is going on, and some people are leaving buildings as well simply because of the concern following these latest reports from the pentagon. >> we have this as a major development. the federal aviation administration has shut down all air traffic nationwide.

this country has been immobilized by these terrorist attacks in terms of air travel today, and we don't know where it goes from here. we'll just ask that you stay with us so that as we get hard information we can share that with you.

so this board gives me rates on progressive direct and other car insurance companies? yes. but you're progressive and they're them. -yes. -but they're here. -yes. -are you... -there? -yes. -no. -are you them? i'm me. but the lowest rate is from them. -yes. -so them's best rate is... here.

so where are them? -aren't them here? -i already asked you that. -when? -feels like a while ago. want to take it from the top? rates for us and them. now that's progressive. let's try to recap. it is 9:47 eastern time and try to recap what's going on so far this morning. the news is terrible. just before 9:00 -- >> at 8:42, actually. >> at 8:42 a plane crashed into the right-hand tower of the world trade center three- quarters of the way up. and you can see the smoke billowing from the building and then 18 minutes later a large plane, and we saw it on tape hit the left-hand tower of the world trade center about halfway up and enormous fireball on both sides of the buildings, and there is a tip of the second

plane hitting the second building as people were trying to get out of the first building. we have confirmed reports right now that there was one hijacked flight, american airlines, from boston to los angeles and that is apparently one of the planes used in this crash. >> terrorism always has two & prongs to it. the physical threat and now the psychological threat. this does seem to be surreal, but in fact, it is real when you have an explosion of undetermined origin at the pentagon and the most conspicuous symbol of american capitalism, the twin trade towers here in new york, two deliberate attacks on those towers today and we don't know for sure who is responsible. >> and the u.s. capitol, also has been evacuated. there have been evacuations taking place at the white house. needless to say many people in the pentagon have left that building as well. >> airports in new york -- >> and in this building in midtown new york they have asked people at 30 rockefeller plaza

to leave, which is another high-rise building which in new new york. i came down the length of manhattan and a lot of people were unaware of what happened. as you tuned into the radio, they began to get it.dh+rá is election day here in new york. >> primary day. >> and what we have is something that most americans thought could never occur. >> we have this as a major development. the federal aviation administration has shut down all air traffic nationwide. this nation has been immobilized by these terrorist attacks in terms of air travel today. we don't know where it goes from here. we will ask that you stay with us so that, as we get hard information, we can share that with you. there's going to be a lot of speculation, and the president has described this apparently as a terrorist attack, and the fbi has confirmed that american airlines flight from boston to los angeles was hijacked and believed that is the first plane that went into the twin trade towers. >> let's go to james kallstrom, the former director of the fbi

here in new york. i'm sure you have never seen anything like this. do you have any information that might be helpful to us? >> not particular information on this tragedy, but certainly what an incredible tragedy, and, you know, all of us in law enforcement and prior in law enforcement have talked for years, and the public have seen the hatred in the world and seen the bombing of the world trade center and the conspiracy to blow up the tunnels and the united nations and the fbi buildings and the bomb at the "u.s.s. cole" and the bombings in the embassies in africa. and we have known for some time that the hatred exists, and now it looks like it has culminated in this absolutely horrendous, incredible ability. >> if you could stand by, because we have more information from the pentagon. mik? >> reporter: katie, my colleague, chris brown here at the pentagon, encountered some of those who survived whatever

it united states, whether it was a bomb or an airplane crashing into the pentagon. one of the survivors who was reportedly injured had various lacerations, was on the second floor of the d-ring which is one ring inside of the outer ring of the pentagon, when suddenly, there was a horrific blast and he said that the second floor buckled upward, and then the third floor above him actually collapsed downward.á

>> reporter: no idea at all, katie. as you know having worked here on any given day, this is a small city and 25,000 to 30,000 people may be working here at any one time. that portion of the pentagon, by the way, had just been remodeled and just reopened. if the crash had occurred just a few months ago, that section of the pentagon would have been virtually empty. but at this time of day, early morning, or mid-morning, the pentagon is very busy and it is impossible to say how many casualties there may be. but there have been a large number of sighted being removed on stretchers, and again, as one survivor said, the floor just buckled up under him, and the roof caved in on him. >> mik, thank you very much. we want to move a couple of miles away from you to the white house where bob kerr is standing by.

we understand that the building is evacuated? >> reporter: yes, that is true. it is utterly surreal. as soon as word came from the pentagon incident we were forcefully removed from the white house. and the scene was one of administrators, cooks, running at fairly high speed, all the way out of the building through the top gates and then we stayed at lafayette park across the street and now we have been moved from there a block or so away. the offices along jackson place, which are across the street from the white house and adjacent to lafayette park, also has been evacuated, and in the most surreal of this morning's scenes here at the white house, a white plane, a very big jet, was flying an unusual pattern near the white house over lafayette park and very slowly and made

one circle, and then we have not seen it since. there was a lot of concern about what that plane might be, but again, it is only speculation, but most people say that since flights have been cleared from u.s. air space, and it was a totally white plane and looked unusual to all of us, that it was a government plane of some kind. >> we should point out that we are looking at pictures as you speak, bob, of the world trade center, because all of the camera crews have been evacuated from the white house as well. when do you expect president bush to arrive there, bob? >> reporter: well, katie, he's coming back directly, and you figure it's a two-hour flight, so you can do the math. the reason i said that it was so surreal is that within just about 20 minutes ago, they were still conducting tours. you had hordes of tourists and others still in the white house on tour lining up outside to get in. there seemed to be absolutely no unusual activity outside of the white house until word came of

the incident at the pentagon. so it has been quite a dramatic shift here. >> and we just saw a live picture of what seemed to be a portion of the building falling away from the world trade center. two medium cappuccinos! let's show 'em what a breakfast with whole grain fiber can do. one coffee with room one large mocha latte, medium macchiato, a light hot chocolate hold the whip, two espressos. make one a double. she's full and focused. [ barista ] i have two cappuccinos, one coffe e with room, one large mocha latte, a medium macchiato, a light hot chocolate hold the whip, and two espressos -- one with a double shot. heh, heh. that's not the coffee talkin'. [ female announcer ] start your day with kellogg's frosted mini wheats cereal. with whole wheat goodness on one side and a hint

of sweetness on the other it's a delicious way to get the nutrition you want.

this is a task for investigators of extraordinary magnitude to determine who did this and how they got away with it. you think about an american airlines flight that was on its way from boston to los angeles was hijacked in mid-air and now the citing transmission from the plane. and they have hard evidence of that and then brought down here and made to fly into the twin trade towers. did one of the hijackers get control. >> did they shoot the pilot? it boggles the mind beyond the ability to figure out what was going on. >> you talked about transmissions and i am curious, have you had any evidence of what was said during those transmissions? >> they are citing transmissions to know that the plane had been hijacked.

and that is all they're saying at this point. we want to remind everyone, once again, that this is an exceptional development that the faa has banned all takeoffs at all airports across america. this country in terms of air travel has been immobilized and a good portion of the nation's capital, the most powerful center in the world has been immobilized as well. >> we saw a live picture of what seemed to be a portion of the building falling away from the world trade center and if we can rerack that to 20 seconds ago, you will see something dramatic happening, and i don't know whether it is another explosion or a portion of the building falling away, but something major just happened at that building. >> here we go to the tape. >> we have the tape. >> watch at the left-hand tower. i don't know if this is the correct tape. there. something there is about to happen. falling away right there.

>> yeah, looks like a big chunk of it has peeled away. >> one can only hope that the area has been evacuated, but you wonder about the emergency vehicles and the people who were injured early in the morning. these pictures are beyond belief. >> we have a report that the second plane may have flown out of newark, new jersey. and this is and official speaking on the condition of anonymity, and again, no confirmation of that and we know there were two planes that went in and the first one was an american airlines flight from boston to los angeles. and we are now seeing it from the harbor view of this continuing damage and destruction to the world trade center. we want to tell you that american airlines has confirmed that one of the flights from boston's logan airport scheduled to go to l.a.x. left at 8:00 a.m. this morning and 45 minutes later it was diverted into the world trade center. >> let's go back into a few seconds ago because this is now an hour after the first impact, and we saw dramatic footage of

the portion of one of the twin towers appearing to fall away from the rest of the building. can we go to the tape now? this is -- when you look at it, the building has collapsed. that tower just came down. >> well, the consequences go on not just to the world trade center and to the poor people who were trapped and caught there. but of course, that is the heart of the world financial markets which have now been shut down effectively as well. so the ripple effect continues this morning as we all try to adjust psychologically and intellectually to what we are witnessing here. it is difficult to comprehend, but this country, the strongest country in the world, has been the target of a major coordinated terrorist attack, and the end is not over yet even if it is confined to just these three targets. the ripple effect goes on. >> and of course, who knows the is human toll that would be the result of this action. matt and -- matt just pointed out to me that on any given day, 50,000 people, tom, work at the

world trade center. >> and at 8:45 in the morning, if they are not in the building, they are around the building. that is a beehive of activity down there, and there is no more active area in terms of pedestrian traffic. >> one of the reporters for the "today show" was there and saw the collapse of one of the towers. >> hi, matt. >> tell us what you saw. >> on the corner of duane and west broadway and walking toward the twin towers and it just collapsed. it looked like the building demolished and smoke and clouds of smoke everywhere. people running towards me as i was going toward the twin towers and people going away from the towards -- away from the towers. and it was just people running like i've never seen a scene like it. >> can you give me an idea of the reaction of people down there? pedestrians? >> everyone, everyone in tears. people who were -- i met some woman in the building to the right of where the

first -- the first thing happened. and, just all crying and having -- wondering if the people they know in the buildings next door are okay. >> mina, take care of yourself. jamie gangel, our national correspondent, is on the phone. jamie? >> katie, as you well know, buildings around town are being evacuated. the state department has been evacuated. the white house has been evacuated and the pentagon has been evacuated. intelligence officials tell me that they do believe at the pentagon that that was a third plane going down. they have had -- the intelligence source that i have talked to say that they have not received any claim of responsibility yet. >> jamie, have you gotten any information from reagan national airport as to air traffic in the area this morning or anybody who might have somehow traced this plane or figured out from where

it came or where it was going? >> reporter: they still do not have any of those details yet. it is almost impossible. they were confused for a long time, as to whether it is a bomb or a plane. they say now that it appears to be a plane. but they say that that is all the information that they have. >> all right. jamie, thank you very much. we will be talking with you. >> and you know, it goes without saying that this is the most serious attack on the united states in more than 100 years. and not since the war of 1812 and the damage we did to ourselves in the civil war has this country suffered this kind of damage within its interior and obviously pearl harbor which triggered world war ii was a horrific event as well, but there has never been an event to match the magnitude of this one in which everything has been shut down in terms of air traffic. the national capital has been immobilized and the financial markets are shut down and there is an untold loss of life.

>> the other tower of the world trade center has just collapsed. that i believe was the first tower that was struck this morning at 8:42 eastern time. now let's go back to "9/11 as it [ male announcer ] identity theft... it's one of the fastest growing crimes in america. there's a new victim of identity theft every three seconds. makes you wonder -- "am i next?" one weak password could be all it takes -- or trusting someone you shouldn't. over 70 million records with personal information were compromised in recent security breaches. you think checking your credit cards or credit report protects you? of course, lifelock can do that for you. but lifelock also helps protect you from more serious fraud, like attempts to get a mortgage in your name. take over your bank accounts or even drain your investment accounts. lifelock offers the most comprehensive identity theft protection available. alerting you to threats by text, phone or email.

♪ your response helps stop thieves before they do damage, with three layers of protection, detecting threats to your finances alerting you to potential danger. and if there's a problem your resolution expert helps restore your identity. ♪ banks and credit cards alone can't offer protection like that. plus, it's backed by a $1 million service guarantee. if your identity is compromised lifelock will spend up to $1 million on experts to help restore it. try lifelock risk free for 60 days. enter promo code easy. act now and get this convenient multi-device charger to charge all your devices at the same time -- a $30 value free! call the number on your screen or go to lifelock.com/easy. try the most comprehensive identity theft protection available risk free for 60 days with promo code easy.

plus get a multi-device charger free. call the number on your screen or go to lifelock.com/easy. ♪ now let's go back to "9/11 as it happened." >> it is 7:15 in the west obviously for those who are just joining us at 8:45 eastern time, 8:42 eastern time american

airlines flight 11 from boston to l.a.x. crashed into one of the twin tower buildings and 15 minutes later another plane hit the other one. that building has now collapsed. and within an hour of those two attacks, the pentagon is now hit as we're told by a plane and an untold number of casualties. president bush has been on the air, he was saying apparently it is a terrorist attack and everyone believes that, carefully coordinated from the air, and the consequences of it in terms of human loss and the effect on this country are still to be determined. katie, what we are worrying about is that the other building may come down, and they have evacuated that area because of the crash, and one world trade center and now we are told about the concern of the second one ![ó[ collapsing as well. we are told now that the spokesman for yasser arafat, the leader of the palestinian, and leader of the pla, the palestinian liberation

organization, that he has -- arafat has condemned what has happened here in new york. he says that p.l.o. has no role in it whatsoever, and they are completely shocked and appalled by what is happening. there was one earlier report that the radical front of palestine claimed responsibility, but that is later denied as well. we don't know yet who is responsible for this, but it was very carefully planned and coordinated, and fair to say it has been devastating efficient and effective attack on the heart of this country. >> let's go to pat dawson who is down by the world trade center. >> reporter: there are probably at this stage, i would say, hundreds, perhaps in the thousands of emergency workers who in the last hour and a half have managed to work their way down here to lower manhattan and basically tried to get into this fray. we are standing right here about 10 to 12 blocks north of the world trade center. these firemen that you can see,

firefighters, firefighters are walking down towards the site now and they literally have been arriving by the dozens over the past hour or so as we say probably in excess of 1,000 or more emergency workers from new york city and surrounding areas converging on this site now to try to make some sense of it. as you can imagine, at this point, there is a certain level of chaos, because they are just trying to sort out who is alive and who is not. when i asked one of them why he was going back in as he suited up, since he could barely breathe, he said because it's my job and there may be some of my brother officers in there. and as you can see from these pictures the amount of dust from the fire that is still burning, flames and ash is extraordinary at this point. at least a few emergency workers have said that they really are not so sure that other tower won't stay up now. they really didn't think that the first one was capable of coming down, but it did. so they are basically saying

keep back as far as you can. on the other hand facing that danger as we have been telling you, many, many hundreds of these workers are heading over those lines down towards that burning building to try to rescue those people who are in there, be they emergency workers, be they civilians. >> we'll go to mik. mik, what is the latest from the pentagon? >> katie, security officials here at the pentagon have not only evacuated the building, but are clearing the entire area. security forces have reported that they have received information of another plane hijacked, and that it is about 20 to 25 miles out of washington, d.c., headed in this general direction. secretary of defense donald rumsfeld, a few moments ago was refusing to leave the building. there is no confirmation of the latest threat, but security officials here are taking it very seriously, and we were standing with secretary rumsfeld's security detail who, as soon as they got the report, were running into the building

and we were herded away, but they have set up an alternative command site somewhere in the area. the pentagon set up a crisis team to deal with this situation. but, so far, the latest reports are that another plane of some kind may have been hijacked and headed in this direction. katie? >> yeah, we also should tell you, mik, this is tom brokaw, that the faa says that all international flights headed for the united states are being diverted to canada. this at a time when, as jim is telling us, there is an unconfirmed report that there is another hijacking, and all takeoffs were stopped, but there were planes in the air obviously at the time of the first two attacks on the twin trade towers and then on the pentagon. >> let's look at the live pictures at the world trade center and the other tower of the world trade center has just collapsed. you are looking at live pictures of the second twin tower at the world trade center collapsing as

a result of the crash of an airplane into its side. that, i believe, is the first tower that was struck this morning at 8:42 eastern time. that is now -- that has now fallen to the ground. >> the profile of manhattan has been changed. there is a declaration of war by terrorists on the united states. more than 100 stories of steel and concrete, electrical. there it is. that is a videotape replay. >> many of the emergency workers basically just happy to be n alive. certainly, that picture tells it all.

we are back at 10:30 eastern time on this tuesday morning, this horrific, incredible, not- to-be believed tuesday morning. you are looking at live pictures of the world trade center where just a few minutes ago, within the last minute actually, the second twin tour collapsed. >> this is a declaration and execution of an attack on the united states. two of our most conspicuous symbols of the american system of capitalism, the pentagon which is the headquarters of the7ñ:nñ most mighty military in the world was attacked today and the white house has been evacuate and the state department has been evacuate and the financial markets are immobilized and all flights taking off after these attacks are grounded. >> international flights have been sent to canada. >> transatlantic flights are sent to canada. so there is great chaos on this country to say nothing, as you pointed out so importantly, of the untold loss of life.

and it's going to be horrendous. we don't know yet what the exact numbers are, but we can only tell you that by looking at the pictures you can guess as well as we can that there are a lot of people who are not able to escape. >> back in 1993 when the bomb blew up in the basement of the world trade center, so many survivors talked about how long it took them with no power in the elevators to walk down the smoke-filled stairways. you think of how many were trying to escape the buildings when the first one, and the second one collapsed. >> and the buildings important in so many ways, and now it has been attacks by terrorists at world trade center and the damage is beyond our ability to tell you in great detail. >> let's go to pat dawson, if he can hear us. he's on the ground. >> quite extraordinary. these are the emergency workers who are coming back. it was ten minutes ago that we described to you the possibility of that north tower collapsing. about five minutes after we went off of the air, it did collapse. once again, we have no idea at

this point the loss of life, but i can tell you that there were hundreds of emergency workers down there about five or six blocks. it took probably about, i would say, no more than 50 or 60 seconds for that dust cloud, dust and smoke to literally make it the five or six blocks up here and begin to envelope us at which point we started to move out of the way. there were literally dozens and dozens of firemen who were trying to run past us, and in fact, our cameraman put one of the captains in the car and drove him down to a command post. the people you see here are pretty much all emergency workers, and many of them that i have seen in the last two to three minutes, quite frankly are coming out of here and remember this, these are professionals and they are coming out of there looking literally stunned, in shock, many of them, struggling for breath, obviously, in serious distress and breathing problems are the biggest problem for those who managed to make it

safely out of that area down below us. you can't see much more than a block south of me right now. and the world trade center probably stands about ten blocks south of where i am at this moment. as you can see now, the dust is beginning to pick up here. it really depends upon which way the wind blows as to whether or not we get heavy dust or not. but at this point, i can tell you that in the first few minutes, emergency workers were trying just basically to get out of there and to survive. you could see it written in their faces. the situation was so desperate, they just wanted to get out of there. now many are beginning to regroup. and a couple of them asked where the commander might be and they are trying to get together and go back in there and try to take care of the people who are obviously in serious trouble. no other way to describe it. the language here at times if i slip into language which seems a little melodramatic, forgive me. but this is a circumstance which is very, very difficult to describe in many ways without

sounding melodramatic and certainly in 20 years of covering horrific events this is something i have never seen before. and many of the emergency workers just happy to be alive and certainly that picture tells it all. many are happy to be alive at this point. >> that is nbc's pat dawson who is standing about ten blocks from where the world trade center twin towers used to stand. you are looking at one of the collapse of those towers now. we have an alert out of pittsburgh that the officials at somerset county are confirming a crash of a large plane north of the airport 80 miles southeast of pittsburgh. and again, officials at the somerset county airport confirm the crash of a large plane north of the airport which is located 80 miles to the southeast of the city of pittsburgh. we do not know whether that crash of that plane is related to what has become an obvious terrorist attack both here in new york city and washington, d.c., at the pentagon. >> we want to go to jim

miklaszewski who is at the pentagon. jim? >> they are still clearing people from the pentagon and officials belief there is another incoming plane headed in the washington region, but there was a telling, dramatic moment a second ago when a u.s. air force f-16 flew at low level and did a wide sweeping turn around the pentagon and back over washington. and as one air force officer standing near me said, they are now flying air cover over washington. a very dramatic moment. a milestone in what tom has already described as a declaration of war, terrorist war, against the u.s. katie? >> let's go back to show you the pictures of lower manhattan where the situation is only worse and not better. that is the financial district of the world and a great residential and commercial area and both twin trade towers have collapsed onto the ground. there is an untold loss of life and heroic rescue workers down there trying to get the people

out of the building when the first building came down and then the second building did as well, without any sound and in looking at this, there is a kind of surreal quality, but that is the epicenter of a great, great national tragedy and a great loss of life. no question about it this morning. >> it is hard to overstate the consequences of all of this, and this is just the beginning. we will be living with this story and dealing with the consequences of it for some time. the united states will change as a result of all of this. we already thought that there was a lot of security in america at the airports and so on, and yet, there was a successful hijacking in boston airport today and the consequences of that we're seeing on the screen here this morning. >> the building began to disintegrate and we heard it and looked up and started to see the elements of the building come down and we ran and honestly, it was like a scene out of "independence day."

[ male announcer] surprise -- you're having triplets. [ babies crying ] surprise -- your house was built on an ancient burial ground. [ ghosts moaning ] surprise -- your car needs a new transmission. [ coyote howls ] how about no more surprises? now you can get all the online trading tools you need without any surprise fees. ♪ ♪ it's not rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade.

test test test reeva steenkamp but today there say possible charge of culpable homicide and that's what we're waiting to hear how the judge will rule on that. right now, he seems to be possibly getting cleared of these gun charges now. we're listening to her discuss how the state has not been able to prove her case. gentlemen, eric what her take on this? >> it's interesting how the judge is going through evidence and saying the state's witnesses

contradicted themselves. they contradicted each other, which goes to show she has to put on the record why she ruled in a certain way. she's going through the evidence saying why she's ruling in a certain way and we're waiting on her judgment right now. >> and randy how do you think this will play out for him? >> i think you have to parmsse out the charges. in south africa, these additional charges are part of this trial. it's extraordinary prejudicial when you have a defendant on trial for homicide involving a firearm to permit not just other evidence of other incidents involving a firearm but other charges. i don't care if it's a judge deciding your fate or jury you're looking at the possibility of being convicted

by a percpencedy. >> he was just cleared of that. they said the state did not pursue that. he's been cleared of the gun charges from 2010. >> which the judge telegraphed by saying however the state said the witnesses contradicted each other, they are not reliable. maybe the girlfriend had an ax to grind because they didn't like the way they broke up. >> what the judge is doing, in south africa for the judicial economy, they try all the person's cases together. it's different here because of the united states. this would not be the case where an old gun charge is placed with a murder case because like randy said it's prejudicial and shows what this person did before may have impacted what happened then. that's why in the united states those cases are separate and the jury in our cases would never hear that information. >> in this case what's interesting is they seem to lump that together but they seem to be very, very different charges

that were brought against and basically not paid attention to in this. >> they are totally different charges. this is something that happened two years prior to the murder case -- while three years prior to the murder case. they lumped his cases in together for one big marathon trial and the judge is having to decide the case on its own merit, whether the murder was a murder and whether he's guilty of the firearm possession and ammunition. she's supported to give each of those cases by themselves and i don't know how someone can totally separate the two with her beging a judge. they don't have jury trials because of the racial issues in south africa which many ask for them to go back to that system and they my be one of those cases that shows jury trials may be needed where the judge will be fair. >> any surprises, randy?

>> to me the big surprise is while the charges may seem very different, there's a threat imagine, and the eastiest way, if there is no evidence that oscar pistorius fired a gun, had a temper involving the use of a weapon and you had a guy with no background, in priors, no per pencety, no prior incidents involving a gun and he's on trial concerning whether or not he intended to kill his girlfriend, which the judge said no or whether he closed his eyes, did not see the possibility that he could kill her by firing the gun through the door. remember what the judge said, it's clear he acted hastily and he used excessive force and you can't help but wonder whether or not the other charges have impacted her thinking in coming to that conclusion. >> but the other charges,

obviously are not going to stick at all and this ruling came down yesterday he was cleared of having any sort of premeditation or murder charges so now we're facing the hasty charge, the fact that it's the culpable homicide ruling. any surprise in that coming down? >> i'm not surprised in the murder charge. unfortunately, with the system that south africa has, it doesn't necessarily shock me. however, the evidence clearly points to this man was guilty of this. i don't see how a judge could come to this conclusion based upon the evidence. i've been watching this trial the entire time and i don't see how she came to that conclusion. >> randy what's your take on that? >> it's one thing and we have to add something to the discussion in this trial, you have premeditation, which is the most serious homicide count. then you have something called reasonable foreseeability, which is just below the premeditation

and the reasonable foreseeability is exactly what it sounds like. was it reasonably foreseeable that when you took your gun, pointed it at the door and fired four shots at the door that asuperinga assumeing there was someone at the door you could kill them. she walked him on that and to me that was surprising because you have to say to yourself wait a minute. i fire a gun at the door. unless i think the bullets won't be able to go through the door and i do believe there is someone on the other side of the door because i admitted i knew that, wouldn't it be reasonably foreseeable i could kill somebody on the other side of the door? that to me is a fascinating part of the e quitted. >> that shocked me. the premeditation, i thought there was a descent chance of him being found not guilty but the murder charge absolutely not. that is mess character justice. >> the question is what does the

state have now? they said the state hasn't proved their case. what is the chance on approvals on that maximum of 15 years in prison, possible house arrest. who knows what that actual sentence will be but what does the state now have to do to possibly appeal this if they think he did get off with murder? >> they ma have ay have a right to do so. let's assume for the moment he gets convicted of culpable homicide and the judge telegraphed that. i think the state will wait and see what the sentence is. if the state views the sentence, i think is excessively light. if the judge gives him a descent amount of time in and he goes to a max prison and probably in general population, at least to start, then you may see the state say you know what? i think it's enough here. let's leave this one alone.

>> i think they are going to appeal regardless because with the major charges being -- him being found not guilty, i think they don't have much of a choice, and that's why in this system, which a lot of people wonder why is the judge colloquy, the judge has to tell her rationale as to why she reached a verdict and in their appeals process they look at the rationale first to see did the judge reasonably rule in each of these counts. so that's why she's going through this long two-day version of events >> she is being extremely thorough and discussing every count and every opinion and covering crossing her ts and cotting her is. we are completely aware of that. also, once this comes down, how long before the sentencing and actually he will possibly serve time? >> typically the sentencing in south africa for a case like this would be six to eight weeks, some estimates say it could be within