battling inside the clown show that is the subcommittee on weaponizing the federal government. just swatting away all manner of foolishness, not allowing anyone to promote propaganda. >> yes. she did her thing. susan del percio, who won the week? >> i've been in former colleague, casey hunt. she was in labor for 13 minutes and delivered her baby with her husband on the bathroom floor before the paramedics got there. >> wow. we'll having had three humans 13-minute labor is my kind of labor. who won the week? tucker carlson. but not this week's tucker carlson. 2009 tucker carlson. here he is. >> if you create a news organization whose primary objective is not to deliver accurate news, you will fail. >> for once i agree with tucker. 2009 tiger one week.

adrianne shropshire, susan del percio, online with chris hayes starts now. starts now >> good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes, one of the most frightening trends in american politics in recent months has been the prioritization, across the country, of conservatives and republicans from state to state targeting lgbtq folks. it's one of the, if not the unifying policy priorities in the modern republican party 2023. it's especially pronounced at the state level. the american civil liberties union says it's tracking nearly 400 anti lgbtq bills across the country. tennessee, to name one state, in particular, is home to multiple examples of this particular noxious trend. there is a new law criminalizing many types of drag performance. is 12th night fond of? that will find out. a bill working its way through the legislature which would allow state clerks to refuse to

officiate gay marriages if they so choose. but it's not just the states. we are seeing this disturbing trend of the national level as well. flutter a publican governor ron desantis who informally kicked off his wildly expected presidential campaign today made his name on the national stage in part by championing florida's so-called don't say gay bill. donald trump is trying to out-bigot the rest of his party by pledging to ban any federal agency from promoting the concept of sex and gender transition at any age. i have to say, for close to a decade now, i see a lot of folks, and i will say, particularly straight -- thought these kinds of attacks on lgbt people were for the most part behind us. it was not very long ago the kind of state and force bigotry against trans folks we are now seeing proposed across the country was a massive nationwide scandal. seven years ago, back in 2016,

north carolina's been republican governor pat mcmurray signed what was colloquially known as the bathroom bill, aloft force trans individuals to use the bathroom of the generally were assigned at birth rather the cinder they identify as. the law caused an uproar. it was a monumental controversy. a bunch of high-profile company severed ties with the state including paypal, which canceled plans with the officers there. ncaa pills overdone camp championship games. nba moved its 2017 all-star game a, including bruce springsteen, canceled concert for the state. and then that year, pat mccorvey lost to democrat roy cooper. in a state that democrats have struggled when. pulling out the election showed that legislation played a big role. roy cooper repealed of the most objectional parts of the bathroom bill. even as recently as a year or two ago, still being cited as a classic example of republican

overreach on cultural issues. that's especially after donald trump, who always kind of had his finger on the republican base, said republican star kate jenner could use any bathroom she wants at mar-a-lago. seems like a watershed moment. a lot of folks, again, mostly cyst folks, could be lured into believing that those kind of fights are behind us, and that there was a new settled consensus. but also lots of other people, particularly voices in the trans community warned that was not the case. they were right. just last month, the human rights council said it is now tracking, quote, more bathroom band bills filed than any other previous year. tennessee alabama and oklahoma already have them on the books and they're moving through other state houses. and bathroom bills are just one weapon in a resurgent republican war on queer folks and the queer community. in a lot of ways, some ways, it

feels like we're back in the mid 2000s one republican conservative politicians and strategists tried to use gay marriage, in particular as a so-called wedge issue, to divide voters along cultural lines. and with the return of that kind of politics, also comes a return of a very specific kind of political scandal, one that happened all the time back then. couldn't go through a week. that is the antique we're republican politician who gets caught up in a scandal involving the queer community. probably the most famous example, although really there are dozens, is former idaho republican senator larry craig, a vehement opponent of gay rights. craig pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct in 2007 after he was arrested by an undercover police officer who says greg was trying to solicit sex in an airport men's room. it led to, among other consequences, an incredibly awkward interview with nbc news. >> he had a gesture.

towards the door, like this. he didn't tell that, did he? he said and i said no. and then another gesture and i stepped up, pull my pants up and stepped out. i was immediately grabbed by him. and i said what's going on here? and he jerked me out of the bathroom. >> i have to tell you that, i mean, we all can be naive. and we all can live in our own world, and i thought, am i just out there somewhere being naive? and i honestly believe my husband has always been faithful to me in every way. >> larry craig is a most infamous example fire from the only. one around this time there many similarly anti-lgbt republicans who were caught in scandals are came out as gay after leaving office. and it's all happening again because again, they opponents of equality averaged us back

now we're experiencing scandals to the wonder that we had 15 years ago, this time in tennessee in tennessee of course the sight of those multiple anti queer laws pushed by the state republican, -- ready mcnally is in the headlines this week for his instagram account. >> tennessee lieutenant governor randy mcnally finds himself facing accusations of hypocrisy after progressive site honors to social media interactions with the 20 year old game model. among them provocative posts that were liked by the 70 nine-year-old republican, including one where the young man doesn't appear to be wearing clothes. when people see these posts, what should they take away from them? >> well, i don't know that they should take away a whole lot. >> there's also this post for the man said he was, quote, not al khor but a whole. when one is a slot, the other is a prostitute, as adding, i

am one that gets -- further giving reverence to a sexual act. and it was like by lieutenant governor mcnally. >> i don't know that a lot of times when peoples post, you see the name and you see what they have written and you just press the button that says like. >> so you didn't read that post? >> i don't recall reading the part about the we'd, i know that. >> but what about the prostitute? >> i might have read that. >> to be clear, there's lots of other career folks that the lieutenant governor follows a comments on and gives them, you know, fire emoji, heart emojis to their photos. and honestly, i couldn't possibly care less because i truly and firmly, to every last cell of my being, like many of you, i am sure, believe everyone and every person should be able to safely comfortably live their truth. and if you like someone's hot

selfie, whatever. but, again, that cannot happen. we can't go into that world until republicans, like the state republicans in tennessee, of whom he is a member, and this cruel and pointless crusade against queer folks. >> tim miller's former spokesman for the rnc, former communications director for jeb bush's campaign. he's now writer large and he joins me now. tim, you've kind of lived this, i would say. you have lived the trajectory of conservative politics, and o'leary craig scandal from the perspective of being a republican staffer. the, i think increasing except an, stephen in republican politics, of gay folks, what do you think is has happened in the last year or two in terms of where we are on the clock? >> yeah, i've got to say, that was a triggering intro between the vicarious embarrassment for the lieutenant governor and larry craig. for what it's worth, for all the damage that he did, i came

outclassed because of that larry craig interview that you just played. i have watched in a while, but i forgetting the out of the closet. -- so is the motivation i needed. the reason why you're bringing me back and we're all going back in time it's pretty simple, unfortunately. the republicans think that it's a political winner again. it's really a simple as that. i think you laid it out nicely about the damage done in the north carolina bathroom bill to republicans. obviously the gay marriage issue became such a loser for republicans across the country. a lot of them just stopped talking about. at some of them change their views, some of the rear pretending that they were into gay marriage to begin with. others interview stayed the same but they stop talking about it. particularly with school issue, that's what started us down this path. the republicans saw with the don't say gay bill in florida, the debt seemed over the line. that seemed kind of crazy, but it was a political winner for

desantis. he is success with that bill has no let other folks say oh, okay, the gender ideology, the drag queens, the kids in schools, this is now something we can go in offense on again. now we're going to have the scandals again. >> i saw a report today, and again, it's always hard confirmed these individual reports, like what book in what librarian what school is or isn't there. so i saw someone mentioned that tango makes three had been taking out of the school in florida, which is an amazing story about a gay couple of penguins in the central park zoo. a great book for kids. it's a great book for kids about being gay and his obviously nothing to do a sex. i just thought, like, in terms of going back in the clock, i remember heather has two mommies controversy in new york city board of ed in 1992. i mean, that's 30 years ago. taking a book like that ode to the library. it's back. >> yeah, i retain go to my

daughter all the time. it's a great book. i saw desantis -- and i went down to florida around his book announcement. i went to his event at the villages. what was interesting to me, because he talked about this. at first he denies that the book bans are happening. like you said, different a different school districts, but what is happening, what we know is that desantis, on the disney issue, was specifically talking about how disney world was sexualizing children, use that word multiple times. you talked about how these other books or sexualizing children. but the thing is, the disney brouhaha came out around his buzz lightyear movie that had a girl girl kiss that was like not at all sexual. and then the movie strange world that had, i guess, the offending issue is the gay son whose dad is supportive of him. there's no sex in the movie at all. and so i think that there are a lot of these examples where they're trying to blur the lines. >> yes.

>> so they can have the political advantage. we go on offense against the lgbtq community and by cherry picking a few examples and -- tangles a good example. >> there's something grocer. what you're describing is cynical, but there's actually, michael knowles is a conservative dude just random mediocre individual who somehow has signed something. i guess. i don't know. it's where the napa zone at side because it's a small supply of a huge demand. so they pick up a bunch of rando's who have no discernible talent and throw them up against the wall. but anyway, he gave this disgusting speech at cpac that said transgender isn't as we eradicated. if you got up at cpac instead judaism has to be eradicated, everyone in the room, hopefully, throws their shoes and walks out because that the disgusting, despicable thing to say. this was met with cheers. i don't know how cynical that, is but it's also like genuine

desire to eradicate trans folks, particularly from public life and maybe private life. >> i think it's true. drag queens to. look at the bands with drag queens. and knowles, his talent is worth diminishing, but he -- with ted cruz, they were co-pod cast host for a while. this is like a prominent person within the republican ecosystem who is making this case. and i do think, particularly on the gender ideology, the transition in the drag issue, there's a lot of genuine attacks on that community, on top of the cynical attacks i was talking about that desantis is engaged in. >> tim miller, thank you so much for joining us. a little triggering, but i appreciate you coming on. >> coming, of donald trump meets with his lawyers following new reporting he could be indicted for a hush money payment from 2016, but is now the right time for this prosecution? former mueller prosecution investigator joins me next.

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lawyers will be meeting with the ex president to discuss legal strategy after the office in manhattan district attorney alvin bragg indicated the ex president could soon face criminal charges over the case of a hush money payment to porn star stormy daniels in the closing days of the 2016 campaign. on monday michael cohen, the admitted bag man for the ex president who would be a star witness in the hush money case, is expected to testify before a manhattan grand jury in yet

another sign of a likely indictment. all this raises the question whether the first ever indictment of former u.s. president could come in this case which stems from his and michael cohen's actions seven years ago, rather than the investigations by a georgia district attorney and the doj for trump's recent efforts to overturn the 2020 election. and weizmann spent years working in the department of justice. most recently served as a prosecutor for robert mueller's special investigation. glad to have you here. i guess let's start with the news about cohen going for the grand jury on monday. what does that indicate? >> that would not really be, to me, the key. it is that the da actually asked, according to the new york times, the former president whether he would like to voluntarily appear. i think the combination of michael cohen going into the grand jury and inviting the former president to go in is really key.

you just don't invite somebody to go to the grand jury. the targeted investigation unless you're at the final stages. everyone expects that the former presidents going to say no. of course he took the fifth amendment in letitia james civil case, so there's no reason to say he will be i will be happy topic grandeur. when you do in terms of affording him that sort of due process, meaning he has the ability to do that. he can turn it down, which he likely will. >> just more from the new york times reporting, the manhattan district attorney's office is already question at least seven other people for the grand jury hearing, and it's about hush money. once cohen has defied nearly every crucial player in the hush money matter will have appeared before the grand jury, with the exception of the porn star herself, stormy daniels, who may not be called to testify. what's strange here is that this was a federal crime that michael cohen pled guilty to, but this is the manhattan district attorney's office. a bit of jurisdictional complexity. >> yes.

a number of things. there's that. it's federal versus state. and as you alluded to, the idea that of all of the crimes that you are thinking that the former president did, this isn't the one that jumps out at you as the most serious. it's not that he should be prosecuted, but when you think about overturning an election or taking seriously classified documents and obstructing justice, those are obviously more serious. but that's not to say that he shouldn't be treated like anyone else. if the manhattan da has charged people in this kind of circumstance, then equal justice under the rule of law law means you go forward. it is unusual. it's also in the usual, as you said, that it's happening in the state level. i think we know a little bit of the reason why, because michael cohen pled guilty to this federally. >> yes. >> and he obviously was not the highest person. he was doing this for the former president. >> and that shows up in the pleating documents and the government charging.

>> absolutely. there's no reason for him to have. done that [laughter] it's not his money. it's not he who had sex with the porn star. and so this is being done for his boss at the time. but we know that bill barr, the u.s. attorney general, the federal level, after michael cohen but guilty said stop, don't do anymore. he actually advocated that the u.s. attorney in new york withdraw the guilty plea of michael cohen, and that was resisted. and that's why you have the entrance of the state going in. it doesn't really explain why merrick garland didn't pick this up, but you definitely understand why the state stepped in when the federal government dropped the ball. >> again, look, i'm just a lowly cable news host. [laughter] i'm not second guessing anyone's legal just judgment. i'm just viewing all this in the context of american politics and according to the

rule of law in these arguments were having about the rule of law in the context of the political campaign. it just seems to me that, what donald trump did, vis-à-vis the election was so grave. it's very important to me, personally, that there's some account of that. i mean he was impeached. it was the most bipartisan impeachment and conviction vote ever. but, so, that's not alvin bragg's problem. but it's kind of all of our problem. a little bit. in the aggregate >> i think the answer to that is twofold. one is, this is not an either or. there should be an. and we could very well see charges in georgia. we could see charges at the federal level. so this may not be the end. and also, it's not really how prosecutors think about things. they're not supposed to think about how do we look at all of donald trump's criminality? what they think they do is they think about, is there a crime

for me. how have i treated everyone else in the situation. and if people who did this who were just as culpable were charged, then the rule of law says, not that you have to, but that really it is a heavyweight in favor of going forward. >> is that a standard part of the charging procedure? >> you definitely look at how, what is precedent, what is it that the da office did project smith. it's going to be how have a treated other people? so in the mar-a-lago case, they're going to be looking at how have other people who have stolen documents and obstructed justice been treated? the answer is, they have been prosecuted. >> this is pretty clear answer the comes from. that of course, when you get to, again, to what to me is the grave is crime committed, only one person can commit it. it's not a lot of precedent for that. it's hard to find the matching set. >> yes, but what i would say there, the reason it's not a hard call on looking for comparability is, you have, to use the phrase that i'm

stealing from jamie raskin, you have a lot of foot soldiers who did the bidding of donald trump. >> they've been prosecuted. >> the idea that they would get off, they re-prosecuted but he would get off seems anathema to the rule of law. >> and weissmann, thank you very much. be sure to tune in this sunday on 5 pm eastern when riverdale shire tons sits down with manhattan to alvin bragg. right here on msnbc. still ahead, president biden blasts republican proposal to get spending as democrats call an extreme on steroids. white house press secretary kareen jean pierre joins me on the state of these negotiations. next. s. next ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ (fisher investments) in this market, you'll find fisher investments is different than other money managers. voltaren. the joy of movement. (other money manager) different how? aren't we all just looking for the hottest stocks? (fisher investments) nope. we use diversified strategies to position

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his budget proposal, 6.8 trillion dollar plan that would raise taxes on the wealthiest americans americans and cut the deficit by three children over the next decade. republicans have panda presidents plan but have not unveiled their own budget proposal. there's a reason for that. republicans know that they're this won't be popular. president biden knows that, as well, which is why he is calling on republican speaker kevin mccarthy to release his plan publicly. >> the fact is that the speaker of the house is a very conservative guy and he has even more conservative group with him, but he and i met early on. he said what are we gonna do about the budget? and i said well, let's make a deal. let's meet. i said i'm going to introduce my budget on the 9th of march.

you introduce yours, and we will sit down and go line by line. we'll go through it. we'll meet with him tomorrow anytime if he wants. i will show you what i want to do. >> joining me now is white house press secretary kareen jean pierre. good to have you won. >> hey chris. could see you as well. i guess the question is, the argument so far is i can to do so from kevin mccarthy is they should be essentially secret behind closed-door negotiations, and it would police in the well for them to be public in any way about what budget they want. what do you think of that? >> well that's not how should. work let's see some transparency. let's see how from house republicans, what is it that they value? what is it that they see as fiscally responsible to move forward for the american people? i mean, chris, you've heard them. we've heard them for many years now. they want to cut medicare. they want to cut social security. these are things that they have

voted on. and that is not something that the president believes in. he has said very clearly, over and over again, and you heard him at the state of the union where he laid it out before republican sitting in front of him, and he said he is going to fight for medicare and social security. and you saw what they put forward. the freedom house caucus, the gop freedom house caucus. that's what they put forward is basically what they said they valued which is selling out the middle class to corporations and the wealthy. that's what they put out today. that is the plan that they feel that they need to move forward with, which is, actually, a better insane. when you think they're going to do the biggest cuts to medicare that we have seen in decades. they want to basically give a gut punch to every day americans by not doing anything below the deficit. if anything it adds to the deficit, giving tax breaks to the wealthy, tax bases for

special interests, rich special interests. that's what they so far seems to be saying that they want to do. so the president is calling on mccarthy to come forth with his budget, and then we will see what we can do. let's go line by line and see what they believe is their value statement to the american people. >> the scott perry house freedom caucus proposal that you noted today, which, as i should say rick scott endorsed, which is interesting after the given, take with rick scott. the freedom student relief will be gone, cut the climate change funding that was in the inflation reduction act, of course the versatility significant climate change of its time. 22 levels for a decade which sounds sort of anodyne but it is two trillion dollars in domestic policy, in domestic program cuts. do you think that's, is that what the white house views is the alternative here, or the thing that's going to be compromised against?

>> look, that's something for speaker mccarthy to decide. as you, said they put a plan together. they basically, it seems to me their value statement to the american people. and honestly, it would be funny if it wasn't so scary, chris. if it wasn't so dangerous what they are saying that they want to do. you think about the inflation reduction act, there are so many things you just list out. you think about the inflation reduction act. that is supposed to actually, it's supposed to help lower the deficit by over $200 million. so it is a smart planned the president put forward that lowers costs for the american people, that helps medicare negotiate so that we can actually, again, lower costs for the american people, our superior seniors, if you think about how important that, is energy security, all of the things that really truly deal with what americans need right now, when you think about lowering costs while we're dealing with inflation as we see inflation moderating overlies seven months. that's just one piece of item that we're talking about. there's a whole list of other things that they put forward

that actually hurt americans. again, it is a gut punch to americans and lifting up, lifting up the wealthy and the corporation. but that's what we are seeing so far. it's up to the speaker tonight has no, hey, is this it? is this what you're saying? is the value statement that you want to give to the american people? its first beaker mccarthy to decide. >> i want to ask you, as i have you here, about something we covered earlier this week. there were reports that the white house was considering with the department homeland security was considering reintroducing the practice of family detention, something that was tried and then abandoned under barack obama in 2014 2015 was harshly criticized by then-president candidate joe biden, it has been roundly criticized by lawyers, medical officials who have to deal with this as inhumane, is causing damage to children who are held with their families. is it true that that is being considered? >> what i want to be very clear here when i answer this question, and i've answered

this many time in the briefing room, and we as administration have as well. we are not going to certainly comment on rumors are conversations that are out there that people are reporting on. those are rumors. what we are going to promise is that we're going to do this. we're going to move forward with a, with this kind of systems, immigration system, that has been gutted, really in truly gutted by the last administration. we're going to move forward and do it in a humane way. we're doing it in a safe way. and we're going to do it in the way that moves us forward. and so what we have been seeing, what we have been dealing with, again, is trying to fix the damage that the last administration did. what we have done is we have opened the path to, we have opened the path to make sure that people have a way to get, to come through and to do it in a legal pathway. that's why we extended the floral leave program, with cuba, with haiti, with venezuela, and

those are the things that the president wants to move for word with, how do we do this in a safe and orderly way, and a humane way? that's the tools that the president's going to use. but again, when it comes to rumored conversation, i just can't comment on that. it is not something that i can confirm. but i can tell you what we have been doing since the president walked into the administration. >> just a follow-up on that, i think if i said are you gonna do child separation again you would say now, we're not gonna do child separation, right? i mean, so, it just seems like you could say, we're not going to do family detention. but you're not saying that. which is fine as far as it goes, but i just want to be clear. >> i think what you're asking me, chris, is to speak to rumors that are out there. and that is not something that we're going to speak to any rumored conversation. what we're gonna do is, as you know, title 42 is going to be ending in may at some point, and so what we're trying to do is find ways to deal with what

occurs once we get to that date. look, here's the thing. one of the things that we were able to do and that we have been working on is making sure that we try to reunite families, and we have done that under a task force that the president has put forth very early on in his administration, making sure that we fixed a problem that was caused in the last administration. we're still working on that, and that is still critical and so important. when the president wanted to this administration he actually did something that was incredibly important, which is put forth a comprehensive immigration reform to deal with this real issue. but we haven't seen any action from republicans in congress. so at the president has done, he has put forth pathways to coming in here and coming to this country the legal way, which we have seen it working, which is really important. and then again, doing it in a humane way. i just want to be careful. department of homeland security

is trying to figure out how do we move forward past title 42. and we know that and have that conversation. i'm just not going to lean into rumors. the moment i talk about rumors are conversations that are out there, it opens up a whole other conversation. so just want to be mindful of that. >> all, right karine jean-pierre, appreciate making time for us. still to come, florida governor ron desantis prepares to challenge donald trump for the republican nomination, but does the man people are calling sure trump have it takes to go on the offensive? ahead. offensive? ahead. [♪♪]

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w. bush when the presidency for the second time, a journalist and historian, thomas frank, published a book titled, what's the math with kansas? it became a runaway bestseller, hugely influential work in politics, political science. and frank's thesis, using kansas as an example, it's about how the republican party won over white working class voters, particularly in rural areas, despite the fact that the party does not uphold their material interests. and he basically describes it as a kind of bait and switch. republicans pull voters in on culture war issues and then just deliver for their wealthy donors and corporations. -- vote to stop abortion, receive a rollback in capital gains taxes, but to make our country strong again, received the industrialization. vote to strike a blow against elitism, receive a social order

in which wealth is more concentrated than ever before in our lifetimes. the book was both loved and hated and criticized, and set up a whole bunch of debates. now, nearly 20 years later, i think we are seeing an incredible example of exactly what thomas frank identified. this time it's in the state of arkansas. so, in january, sarah huckabee sanders was sworn in as governors of arkansas. the former trump campaign adviser and white house campaign press secretary presents shelf is a full maga culture warrior. and she even used her big debut in front of a huge national primetime audience, delivering the republican response to the state of the union to stoke the culture wars. >> the biden administration seems more interested in woke fantasies than the hard reality americans face every day. and he's the first man to surrender his presidency to a woke mob that can't even tell you what a woman is. his administration has been completely hijacked by the

radical left. i signed executive orders to ban crt, racism and indoctrination in our schools, eliminate the use of derogatory term latinx in our government -- >> so, you get the full cultural mad libs there. now, curiously, in that speech, the governor did not mention that she and fellow republicans are also working to bring back child labor. because that's the exact bait and switch that arkansas voters are getting right now. you see, this, week sarah huckabee sanders signed into law the youth hiring act in arkansas. children under the age of 16 will no longer need to get permission from the state or from a parent or guardian to get a job. that's pretty standard in a lot of states. this is a republican priority -- governor sanders priority, two months into her term. i guess we are putting our children back to work, does not have the same ring to it as, defeat the woke mob. it's not just in arkansas. this is happening in other republican-controlled states too. iowa and ohio are also making

considering bills that would make it easier for children to labor. as vice reports, i was bill would allow minors as young as 15 to serve alcohol -- identity, that seems like a great idea -- allow 14-year-old to work in industrial freezers and meet coolers, also doesn't seem like a great idea. ohio's bill would allow minors to work year-round until 9 pm. i don't know. by the way, did you know this was a thing republicans are, like, really dead set on bringing back child labor? this is the key point. and it can get drowned out because of how much space and energy the culture wars occupy. of, course those foundational questions about identity, about protecting the rights of vulnerable populations, there is a supremely important. we let the show tonight with them. in addition to that, in politics, there are also basic material interests at risk right now. and the republican position on so many of those issues, from child labor -- to abortion, are extremely unpopular. but they hope to use the culture war battles as cover

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say that today is the first real day of the 2024 republican primary. donald trump has officially been in the race for months, but now he's widely expected -- and formidable potential challenges widely hitting the trail as well. this, morning florida governor ron desantis made his first appearance in the state of iowa. while he was extensively there to promote his new memoir, ron desantis was clearly testing the campaign models. the governor's iowa trip also comes amid new reporting from the washington post that ron desantis has a privately that he does intend to run for president. in other, words here we go. tara setmayer worked as a communications adviser at the -- fernando munday is a veteran pollster and both join me now.

let me start with you, fernando, just in terms of how you understand ron desantis's book tour and what the sort of view from florida is about his sort of political legs. >> well, chris, you alluded to that this is a book tour in name only. he is absolutely setting the stage for a presidential run. but there's a little bit of an edifice rex desantis complex going on here because don't trump is the father political father of ron desantis. -- know that. besides ron desantis handpicked, of course, by trump, so -- the governor's race in almost eight years ago and that led to his victory. so, i think that desantis's preference here is to basically do all of the shadow campaigning as he starting to do -- pretext. but at the same time -- so he does not have to politically kill his father, so to speak, he wants others, or

circumstances to do that work for him, whether it is this long awaited -- indictment that does not will not or will not come -- because what desantis does want to avoid is getting bloodied up in a one-on-one confrontation and trump has made it crystal clear he has no qualms about turning him into a rhino or whatever epithet he has got worked up to make it a disqualified option. really hurt him ron desantis ' chances, not just now but as he's done for other republican contenders. he's waiting in the wings and château campaigning and his -- circumstances happen and at that point -- vanquish trump. >> yeah, i mean, i think that's right. and if you are being paid to advise desantis, i think there's no good to come in attacking trump until you have to. but what was interesting to me, tara setmayer, don't, trump i don't consider, i don't think most people consider, to be the

one of the most substantive politicians, foreign views on governing -- but he has been going after desantis a very hard. and it's been very much, substantively, interesting. interestingly -- and it is a reminder of how much that was the case back in 2016. because it's on medicare and social security, and he wants to raise the retirement, age that he wants to cut your benefits, that he's a global, is that he's against ethanol. all this stuff, it's surprising to me how substantive it is. but it's also illuminate the facts that part of his comparative advantage in 2016 was being closer to the base than the politicians on some issues. >> sure. and that's partially because trump has people around him this time around to understand how to one political campaigns. and he also, strategically, has campaign consultants around him now who used to work for ron desantis, who know desantis ' vulnerabilities, who know where the bodies are buried for him. so, there are people who are disgruntled, former desantis

employees, who are now working for trump. so, they know how to needle him and where his weaknesses are, and it's starting already. e saw trump go after him because he knows that desantis he's in iowa today and trump will be there on monday, so desantis got ahead of him there. he got went after him on farmers. when trump was talking directly to the farmers about how he -- them and how he was on their side and desanctimonious desantis was not. and telling him to go home -- so, he's talking directly to the base. the idea of ron desantis as a candidate, to, quote, vanquish trump, sounds wonderful in the establishment circles, but it's very reminiscent of jeb bush, scott walker. it's giving me bush walker vibes in the past, with establishment was all behind him, there was lots of money behind them, but their personalities went over like a lead balloon until, when don trump came around, he vanquished them with no substantive policy initiatives. now he has some things to point to and he's going to use that

against ron desantis. i mean, can you imagine ron desantis in iowa, where the retail politics really matters? and so you've seen some of the reports out of their. you cannot be arrogant and awkward. can you imagine him on the stump at the iowa state fair giving his presentations, talking about his policy won stuff and his little platform heels trying to come across as someone who can relate to the folks in iowa? i'm waiting to see that. because he's not very good at this. and we are starting to see the cracks in that. and donald trump will exploited all day long. >> yeah, i'm curious. i don't feel like i have enough of a sense of his retail political acumen or ability. obviously, he's had success in florida and, maybe you know, better fernando armandi, in terms of how he does in press the flesh situations. he seems to protect himself from those, generally. but what is your read on it, generally? >> he's definitely got a glass job, chris, when it comes to his vulnerabilities. he's not a charming, charismatic, engaging guy. not only is he aloof -- he is a bit of a word that starts with d and ends in k --

but really for joe biden and the democrats. trump is already a defined personality across the country. if they can zero in and now spend the rest of this year, so to speak, defining ron desantis as maga extremist bully ron desantis, not letting him get out of the box, particularly as the florida legislature implements that desantis, legacy, now, as we see happening during this legislative session, biden can do to desantis what obama successfully did two romney in 2012. to find him before he defined absolve before the electorate. >> i also think there is -- it will be interesting to watch how much this sort of social insurance questions -- you've got nikki haley today saying we should raise the retirement age, right? so, it's not like this is some sort of crazy libel by democrats against republicans. there is a republican wants to be president saying we should raise the retirement age. and i think months of getting hammered on this helps the democratic party, to the extent

that is the message being hammered into the trump base, that these people want to take these -- take away these beloved programs. >> that's what they need to do. democrats should be focusing on exactly what we just said -- defining ron desantis and trump as extremists. they are both unfit to be president of the united states. do not be fooled here. instead of going after each other or worrying about joe biden being too old, or should there be someone else? no. they need to stay focused on the successes that joe biden has had as president. and there are lots of. them and on defining the republicans as the extremists that they are -- it's all right there. they're laying it out for you. there are two americas, and it's time for choosing. and we choose democracy and that's the democrats. that's the message. >> i have no idea what's going to happen. but i'm going to take some -- americans that will elect a guy who is -- president. just saying. tara setmayer, and fernando armandi, thank you both. that is all in for this week. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex wagner. >> is that the dividing line for you? >>