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it's 4:00. we've got news we have a behind the scenes legal battle with potentially major consequences for the justice department's investigation into the ex-president's handling of classified documents at mar-a-lago the washington post is reporting this quote, a federal judge has at least partially granted a request from u.s. prosecutors to force an attorney for donald trump to testify before a grand jury about the former president's possession of classified documents after leaving office that's according to two people briefed on the decision. evan corcoran had refused to answer investigators' questions about his interactions with trump. prosecutors sought to show the chief u.s. guess strict judge beryla.howell of washington that there were grounds of a

crime-fraud exception. they spoke anonymously because this is under seal this breaking news is is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends jackie alamany is here her by-line is on that neil is here and he's a law professor at georgetown university basil smykal is here jackie, we start with you. >> this decision comes at the eleventh hour of beryl howell's term this is her last major ruling. i think some important context here is that we all know at this moment is that at least the request by u.s. prosecutors to force evan corccorcoran, trump'

former attorney, to testify. we know that this ruling and this opinion that was given by beryl howell was given are back to the department of justice to redact certain investigative details that they potentially think need to be withheld and trump lawyers will then review that redacted opinion next week but, again, we know that evan corcoran has previously refused to answer investigator's questions when he appeared before the grand jury earlier this year, i believe in january, invoking attorney-client privilege, but u.s. prosecutors had argued that there was evidence that a client, that being mr. trump, had used the attorney's legal services in furtherance of a crime and beryl howell's ruling shows

there were some questions that do reach the threshold of the crime fraud exception. again, what questions evan corcoran is going to have to answer still remains to be seen. >> jackie, there's been some reporting this week about a specific phone call being of interest in this investigation, and if you put the timing of what was reported to be that call on a time line, it pre-dates the court-approved search of mar-a-lago but it comes sort of at the tail end of what the justice department describes in its own affidavit as mounting evidence of the crimes of obstruction of justice of this probe. do we know anything about what specific interactions with trump the justice department is probing here >> yeah. nicole, there are a few pressure points that we've previously reported and that excellent reporting that came out this week about this phone call and some of the communications between corcoran and donald trump. we do know that investigators,

prosecutors during the grand jury hearing with evan corcoran had asked questions about the communications that corcoran had had with trump about the search that he conducted and personally attested to in a document to doj prosecutors and what those conversations looked like. corcoran, again, he claimed executive privilege, refused to answer some of the questions regarding those conversations with trump but they also asked other questions, like, you know, why did he decide to search various places that he ultimately searched and why did he decide not to search certain places at mar-a-lago these were questions that it's unclear if he answered or not but could see howell potentially forcing and compelling corcoran to go ahead and now divulge some of these details. >> joining our conversation, mike schmidt, "new york times"

washington correspondent the new york times has also matched this reporting let me ask you about this time period because i know you've authored some reporting on another lawyer very much involved who's also been in before the grand jury and that's christina babb this is around the time where the attestation is presented to the doj suggesting that everything has been returned doj has reason to believe that's not the case some of it seems tied up in what they were able to see with their own eyes on surveillance footage. some seems to be wrapped up with the communications with mr. corcoran and donald trump. do you know what they're looking for? >> i think they're looking to find out why they were misled and who told them to mislead them was it trump that was pushing it was it just utter dysfunction and confusion on trump's end be? what's the real answer here? and i think there's another hurdle that the government will have to get over here, which is even if they get to question

corcoran, what kind of witness is he going to be? is he going to be someone that really sits there and answers their questions and provides lengthy, you know, statements about this is what donald trump was telling me to do behind closed doors as we knew this attestation was wrong and false was given to you if you're evan corcoran's lawyer, my guess is you're going to want to have some assurances and some sort of, you know, security that he doesn't have criminal liability himself in this whole thing so is the government going to be able to not only question him but can they put leverage on him to make him really answer the question you can go yes or no, i don't really remember answers, and he's not that great of a witness. >> it harkens back to other reporting you've done about lawyers getting lawyers and it's almost comical to hear evan

corcoran's lawyer. you're right, all of the lawyers have criminal defense counsel. and i wonder if there's a scenario where like other witnesses in the mar-a-lago probe specifically, there's some limited immunity for people like this >> i mean, look, you know, it's making attorneys get attorneys, maga what you have here is if you're a defense lawyer, i'm not a defense lawyer someone should help me out here, but you do -- all these individuals are part of a c conspiracy that's being looked at, right? the government was misled about classified information it's pretty clear that that happened that's not really in question. why did that happen? the movements of the lawyers was one of the main reasons that we know that that happened so if you're evan corcoran's lawyer, you don't want him walking into a grand jury where he's going to be answering questions about things that may implicate his

own criminality. >> it's a role in the conspiracy to lie to the federal government >> right evan corcoran can say, i'm taking the fifth, then they've got to go over this. >> we're calling a life line, neil let me not take away the drama of what's happening here judge beryl howell almost done with an unbelievable body of public service, a lot of which is not known to the public yet because of its sensitive national security nature of so much of what she did, but the reporting in the washington post and the "times" and other outlets now confirms that she has ruled to pierce this attorney-client privilege. take us through the legal significance and see if you can jump in and answer some of the questions that the non-lawyers are struggling with. >> sure. so, first of all, nicole, outside of having to represent donald trump, being forced to testify in a criminal trial of your client is just about the worst place an attorney can be the so mr. corcoran has a twofer

today. attorney-client privilege is hard to break for the best of reasons. if i'm meeting a client, i want them to feel like they can be free with me so i can defend them at the same time, its aides obviously a problem if i as their attorney is criming with them so a client can't give me the dope and help me sell it and then say, oh, we're privileged or something like that so core to our profession is the idea that an attorney can't aid in the commission of a crime, and if you do, if you further the crime in any way, then that isn't something you get attorney-client privilege for. and it looks like from jackie's amazing washington post reporting that this judge, beryl howell, incredibly well respected judge in washington, d.c., has said that's the problem with the assertion of the attorney-client privilege here, that mr. corcoran looks like he was involved in the furtherance of a crime and so, you know, why is this relevant

well, i think the best way to think about the investigation, obviously there's dozens of stolen, very sensitive documents at stake, but there's also this part about obstruction of justice. and prosecutors, i've said this many times on your show, they hate it more than anything when you lie. people make mistakes, all kinds of mistakes, but if you own up to them, it's one thing. if you hide and obfuscate, it's another. it looks like that's what the corcoran testimony is about. it's about the potential obstruction whampt this means for corcoran and trump, there's two different options for them and here i'm just describing the options, nicole, i'm not saying they're right in some normative sense, i'm saying this is what i suspect they're going to try and do one is, they're going to try and appeal i have a supreme court case about this back 10 or 15 years ago in mohawk industries which says you can't generally immediately appeal denials of

attorney-client privilege. it's going to be a hard appeal for them but i suspect they will apply. corcoran could say, this picks up on mike's excellent point, that he's going to take the fifth amendment. yes, judge howell has said there's no attorney-client privilege. i'm facing criminal exposure here, so prosecutors, unless you give me immunity, i'm not going to testify then the prosecutors are going to make the difficult decision, do they immunize him to hear his testimony recognizing, as mike said, that testimony may not be all that great because this is, you know, a maga -- he is a lawyer but he's first and foremost a maga person and may not give you the goods or do they try and indict corcoran with the hopes of ultimately getting him to tell the truth. >> neil, his -- i don't even know what to call her. his fellow maga mar-a-lago documents co-counsel i guess,

christina bob, she's the one that signs the attestation it's a little parse. she attests to all the documents being returned is something represented to her, it's not clear by whom. it's my understanding she's already been before the grand jury what sort of tensions or tectonic tensions are brewing between the two intramaga attorneys on the mar-a-lago case >> i suspect that will be the government's leverage point. at least those two attorneys, perhaps other people privy to the conversations, so it becomes harder to lie to the government if you're one of these attorneys about what happens it will be a prisoner's dilemma in situations where the government says whoever comes and tells us the truth first, they're going to be better off than if you wait later one problem with corcoran is that we know from earlier testimony, he's already been in hot water. eric hirschman, who was another trump lawyer, said that corcoran

was coming close to the line of witness tampering with respect to a past investigation. i think all expectations are that corcoran will do, picking up on mike's point, everything he can to not tell the truth, but he may be facing criminal liability here and that may be enough to try and get corcoran to tell the truth to the prosecutors and jack smith about what happened. >> neal, just based on this as a public facing proof point, where would you assess the mar-a-lago documents situation being carried out by jack smith to be? >> i think once jack smith got involved, and this is part of our conversation from yesterday, the energy and kind of attention of the justice department ramped up a lot, at least from these outward signs. i think the case is very, very strong, nicole, if they decide to bring it, and i suspect -- my gut is that they will, that it would have been one thing if trump owned up to his mistake

and said, hey, i -- you know, i made a mistake the way that vice president pence did, for example, but he did the opposite he said almost like a perfect phone call we can't have a government that operates that way in which people take home or take their golf club the most sensitive documents the american government has and get caught about it and lie about it. the reason why there was a search warrant executed on his home is not because the fbi was hankering to go break down the door or something like that, they repeatedly asked him time and again, hey, do you have any of this information? it's missing in our files in the archives can you give it to us? what did trump do? he sent out his lawyer to say -- to sign a sworn statement saying everything has been turned over. the raid on his house only happened after that because they knew that he was lying, and low and behold, over 100 documents found in his house at that point. so it's that repeated conduct,

which i think makes it very, very hard for a prosecutor to look the other way i don't think jack smith is wanting to indict. i certainly don't think merrick garland is wanting to indict as we talked about yesterday, but i think sometimes events force your hand and this looks like an event that is now forcing the justice department's hand. >> you know, jackie, something that's so distinct in this investigation, and there's been a feeling of sameness in talking about documents, right, once they found some in the biden library and then low and behold pence had them, wherever he now has his office stuff, we all know what that's like, move our office boxes stuff around, is the mountain of evidence the government has released to the public in releasing the affidavit and obstruction of justice investigation which makes it reminiscent in terms of the muller probe there was evidence of criminality which was in the affidavit, the sensitive classified material that was

taken, the moving of the classified material but the government has also put in black and white and released to the general public in the affidavit a pretty mountainous pile of evidence of the obstruction of crimes of justice. i'm wondering what you think of these secret moves, moves being made under seal, the twin tracks under which this probe may be moving >> yeah, nicole. i think you're absolutely right in that the department of justice is focusing on proving these multiple tiers of obstruction, the years that have passed since the trump administration left office and trump took all of these items from the white house to mar-a-lago improperly. not just classified documents, but as mike and i reported today, improper gifts. a litany of things that paint this picture of a former president who did not comply with any of the operations that were set up to prevent this sort of thing from happening. but i think that based on sort

of reading the tea leaves you can tell that the justice department is especially interested in honing in on these points of obstruction from evan corcoran to, you know, pre-interviews that they conducted last year in this investigation with officials from the national archives trying to ascertain just how much the former president resisted handing all of these items back to the national archives, not just classified documents and information that should never have really left a skiff or the formal ways that these documents should have been stored in but also a mountain of presidential records i think that point is also really important for, i think, the public's understanding to be able to definitively and clearly differentiate this case from the other classified document incidents that we have seen and be that there is another special

counsel for. i think it's really hard to ascertain, you know, which investigation that jack smith is looking at is potentially more promising or which one they're closer to reaching a charging decision because of just how the proceedings with regards to january 6th have been more secretive or we've known a lot more about it publicly, i think. on both tracks you can see the special counsel's office moving full steam ahead as quickly as possible trying now to knock out some of the bigger targets, people who were working directly with the former president on the range of these issues. >> mike, i remember some reporting, i think it was towards the end of last year, about cash patel aiding in this as well as a former aide that left mar-a-lago and traveled with donald trump and may or may

not have witnessed some of the movement of classified documents and may or may not have been truthful with the government it went quiet in terms of high profile people like that do you have any information on whether the documents investigation and the obstruction investigation has been sustained at those seemingly high levels? does it have a sense of some undulations? >> i think these investigations ebb and flow and they -- you know, there are big events that -- where things turn and they go back and build up and come forward it's very difficult from the outside to try and figure out how far along they are or not. i mean, you know, as we've been talking about, the evan corcoran thing, there are a million different paths it could go on at this point. one of them could be that he goes in very soon and testifies under oath and answers all of their questions. under another isscenario neal w

laying out, they try to get him to flip and that's something that goes on for years i think there's a strong desire by the public to want to put a timetable on this, but so much of it is out of anyone's control as we've seen in just this one example here on evan corcoran. i don't know look, i know there's a lot of urgency to try to have this resolved before the election or resolved before the primaries or whatever, but these things in my covering of them, they always take longer than people think. they always take longer than people want and they always hit issues that we in the public sometimes don't have much of a clue about the so i don't know. >> neal, i want to bring you back in on this sort of pattern of obstruction of justice because it's donald trump, we have, you know, i think 285 pages that detail exactly how donald trump obstructed the last

investigation into him, the one that was conducted by the muller team i think there were six, there was the obstructive act, there was the next specific crime and we all became terrified to check rosenberg and how to prove obstruction. one thing that was said derisively and dismissively by the justice department at the time, without an underlying crime, the obstruction stuff was just process do you think this justice department sees it that way? >> not at all. so, i mean, process crimes, first of all, can be incredibly important because the system depends on people coming forth and telling the truth, even after they've made mistakes. so if you're hiding evidence, you know, the way that it looks like evan corcoran might have been involved in, that's a serious problem in and of itself the second thing, there might have been kind of convoluted arguments about no substantive crime in the russia investigation, i totally

disagree, but here there's no doubt. you don't get to get -- if you're the government official, you don't get to take highly sensitive documents home it's a crime every day of the week i mean, i served as national security adviser at the justice department i never heard of the possible idea that thrl isn't a crime of course it's a crime government doesn't always prosecute it why not? because you come in and say i made a mistake here's why it was inadvertent. if it wasn't inadvertent, you try and cut a deal the way sand sandyburg -- sandy berger did. the indeed, part of the -- i think it's the espyionage act said failure to turn over

documents after they've been requested of you is in itself a crime. >> basil, this is the easiest to understand of the two systems of justice. i worked in the government i would have been held to the same standard as neal did. you went be to classified documents. it was handled so seriously, and that is without the mountain of evidence they have in this case of the will to take these things, the belief that in trump's words, quote, they're mine, end quote. what do you make of what we're seeing in terms of public facing, the strong stance beryl howell has said and everything is out of control >> primaries what's the voter seeing now? what they saw to neal's point earlier, they saw after what was happening in mar-a-lago, joe biden and mike pence had some documents. they owned up to it. what they've seen from donald trump is something that they always see, obfuscation, that lie. i'm not a lawyer, but i think what this does is pierce that

skin a little bit and get a lot closer to intent why were those documents there was there a specific purpose for those specific documents to be there? and if we get a little closer to that, i think what we will hear is a narrative develop, whether it's the justice department or if it's political in nature, but a narrative continue to develop that he is going to have to defend that is what you want. politically on defense and criminally. >> because it's trump, one could aid the other, right desantis attacks him and something will peak jack smith's interest. the expresident is facing a possible indictment by manhattan prosecutors. what is left before that case wraps up plus, we'll talk to the ranking democrat on the new gop committee that is, quote, reinvestigating the attack on the united states how she expects this to be run by a

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manhattan da's investigation one into hush money payments made to porn star stormy daniels. michael cohen testified and attention now turns to stormy daniels herself. questions about whether or not she'll testify before the same grand jury there's new reporting in "the new york times" that says this, quote, trump's campaign is laying the groundwork for a broad attack on manhattan da alvin brag, a democrat according to two of trump's allies they will aim to portray any charges as part fd a coordinated offensive by democratic party against mr. trump, who is looking to leave office. trump's entire reason for being in the arena his whole political brand is toxic, as it is, seems pred predicated on dragging into the mud to get anyone who crosses him, closes him.

he's running without the protection and fortification of the presidency up against a new york public servant whose only identifiable vulnerability is his party affiliation. he's a democrat, elected official the southern district of new york, under bill barr, has said donald trump directed hush payments we should point this out nbc this afternoon exclusively reported citing five senior officials familiar with the preparations that local, state, and federal law enforcement and security agencies are conducting preliminary security assessments preparing for the possibility that trump could actually be indicted as early as next week so, again, we might be on the verge of another historic moment jackie, neal, basil and mike are still with us. basil, it's an important conversation but it's also important to understand that the

conversation is in and of itself a trump tactic trump wants us to have a conversation about the sum and substance of this reporting of his plans because scaring people into not holding him accountable has worked he's batting 1,000. >> let's focus on alvin bride. >> you know him? >> i know him. he worked at a law firm that -- and specialized in white collar law. he worked at the u.s. attorney's office he worked at the ag's office and also working on donald trump-related issues going back to 2017. so he is not unfamiliar with trump world and the pushback and the bullying so this is what he's used to in some ways, which is counter intuitive, he is not going to reflexively be in front of the camera constantly trying to push the work that he's doing so he's getting -- he has gotten a lot of backlash from within his office about the speed at which this is going, but i

understand his position here he's taken a big swing we were talking about the wire earlier and if you try to go after the king, you best not miss he is trying to be careful he is trying to be cautious. whatever this ends up becoming, i think he's going about it in the absolute right way what trump is going to do is set up the conversation and the attack based on, yes, his democratic affiliation but also very early on trying to stake out progressive ground may have made a few mistakes in how he prosecuted some of those cases. i imagine trump is going to hit him hard ultimately, that's not going to work, not here in new york >> mike, you've covered the fbi and the secret service there is a reality that we have january 6th to look at and point to trump did invite them to a certain day and place and time to come and do something specific for him, but we do know that trump has the capacity and

the willingness to incite his supporters to violence so what do you think the preparations for a week like next week would look like? >> i mean, i was talking to my father earlier today who said what do you think about, you know, this potential violence? and i said, well, i've never lived in a country where the former president has been indicted on criminal charges, still has a significant following of tens of millions of people, a following that has shown a willingness to use violence at the same time that that individual in trump is seeking office again and the experts, the -- in violence and democratic, you know, turmoil inside democracy say groups react when they see a leader arrested. and so i don't know. and i don't think anybody knows. and it's just yet another thing that the country is going to

have to go through in the trump story. we've gone through a lot of different things with trump, and this will be another one and one that will cost a fair amount of money because that story, the nbc story about law enforcement taking rumors, once they do that, it costs money it costs taxpayer money. maybe it's not a ton of money but it is some money it's just sort of the next thing. we're two years out since he's been president and we're about to go into something where it's completely unclear what will happen >> and, neal, some of our -- i hope you took it as loving tension yesterday. some of the reason there's so much attention on alvin bragg is doj's created a vacuum and alvin bragg wouldn't be the target for scrutiny that he is from donald trump and others if on january 21st, 2021, doj, which had

already in black and white accused donald trump of being an unindicted co con spiritor of the hush money scheme of directing and coordinating the hush money to two women with the intent of benefitting his campaigns. so some of the exasperation is the vacuum has created more scrutiny. >> that's exactly right, nicole. it was the bill barr justice department, as you said, which essentially said individual number one, that was donald trump, committed federal crimes because he ordered michael cohen to make these hush money payments and they weren't justified under, you know, his business expenses and legal expenses so the only reason looks like trump wasn't indicted then is because he was a sitting president. as you say, on january 21st, 2020, donald trump was not -- '21 he was not a sitting

president anymore so he could have been indicted the million dollar question is why not? now you could imagine, as we talked about yesterday, any number of reasons for that caution back then. you don't want to rush into it first of all for garland to be confirmed, he wants to review the evidence and so on here we are 26 months later, 20 months after january 6th, nothing definitely, at least outwardly, has happened with respect to the trump investigations you're absolutely right, that puts pressure on what's going to happen in new york, what's going to happen in georgia the it might be that the federal justice department is following the lead of the states instead of doing what it historically does, which is taking the lead for itself. >> neal, help us understand from a legal perspective what this reporting that seems intentionally vague about whether or not stormy daniels will go before the grand jury, it's believed that perhaps michael cohen was a closing witness, but it seems that the door has been left open for her

to possibly testify. is that how you read it? >> yeah. i mean, we do know she's gone in to talk to the prosecutors there's a complication because one of the new trump attorneys, at least new to me, he may have been representing trump before, had some preliminary conversations about representing ms. daniels and legal ethics rules in new york attach attorney-client privilege to prospective clients and your communications and now that same attorney is going around attacking her. there could be some complications that have resulted from that. at the end of the day, i think that, you know, to the extent the investigators want her to come n she'll be able to come in it looks like she, unlike corcoran, is not afraid to tell the truth to the grand jury. so i don't think that she's going to assert some sort of privilege or anything. and so that may delay things a little bit, but i do think just reading the tea leaves here, it looks like all signs are pointing towards a conclusion of this new york grand jury

investigation in very short order one way or the other. >> jackie, let me sort of put into the record a possible counterpoint to this fear people have of potential violence and some of the trepidation caused by the things that the trump campaign itself is putting out that we captured in some of the "times" reporting. congress in a bipartisan manner had as many viewers cumulatively as a super bowl and public hearings featuring lifelong republicans and more recently die hard trumpers saying he incited an insurrection, he wanted an insurrection, he loved the insurrection, he thought mike pence should be hung. he railed against it he raged against it. now he's under criminal investigation. we make him out as the threat to the public he's somewhat impoimpotent we should just keep sort of the reality check that there were

primetime hearings about his criminality on all summer long and he didn't make a dent in them >> yeah. although i do feel like i can't get out of my mind the potential threats of political violence even outside of january 6th. after his club and home, mar-a-lago, was searched by fbi agents as a result of a legal -- a court-ordered legal search warrant that was executed, there was violence that occurred at an fbi headquarters in ohio that merrick garland had to go on television and denounce and ask people to take the temperature down a notch there are countless line agents, line attorneys who desperately have tried to keep their names redacted and out of the limelight in the course of all of these criminal investigations because of fear that they'll be

docksed or attacked. yes, i think that the former president, his political power and brick on the republican party has certainly waned, but i don't think that means that he is any less effective when it comes to galvanizing his core group of supporters to potentially detrimental effect. >> and not all of his supporters are prone to violence, not by a long shot, but most of the most prominent and publicized acts of political violence in this country were carried out to people who adhere to his belief that the 2020 election was stolen from him. specifically the man who sought to attack paul pelosi as well as the shooter in new mexico. just a really raw moment thank you all for having this discussion thank you for starting us out. mike and basil, stick around after the break, if you've never seen weaponized deflection, prepare yourself

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♪ ♪ ♪ get directv with a two year price guarantee. what we aren't going to do, brett, is blame the capitol police, blame those in law enforcement for donald trump's armed mob that he september be to the capitol. >> okay.

but do you have -- >> clearly there were intelligence failures. clearly there were intelligence failures clearly the security should have operated better than it did, but this was a mob donald trump sent to the capitol and i think that's important to keep our eye on >> a memorable mic drop moment over on fox news for the vice chair of the committee that spent a year and a half investigating and combing through hundreds of thousands of documents and interviewing more than 1,000 witnesses about how january 6th happened it's worth keeping in mind while house republicans this month launched their own probe light investigation it is not going to focus on the men who sent the rioters to the capitol but instead solely on the security failures are being led by the trump ally who was shown on tape thanks to the work of the 1/6 select committee giving capitol tours during the attack. joining us now the ranking

member on that subcommittee, democratic congresswoman norma tores. i saw your comments earlier in the week about congressman loudermilk's attention you called my attention by calling their efforts obscene. i wonder if you could take us through what you're girding yourself through for a whitewash. >> it's great to be with you, nicole it is unfortunate i am here on your show to kmuns again discuss the issues around what led the january 6th insurrection i think the january 6th commission did its job and if representative loudermilk continues down this ill-conceived task to investigate the investigators and failing to focus on the attention that we need to move on to right now, and that is how do we work together to best

secure the u.s. capitol, the grounds where we work and where so many millions of people attend every single year to visit with our offices or just to take a tour. >> does loudermilk have anything to say privately about the prominent role he played in the january 6th select committee's hearings where he's shown on tape leading around a group -- i'll remind our viewers what the people who were on a tour of a capitol office building with him would go on to do. the this is from the january 6th select committee's final report. danny hamilton carried a flag with a sharpened tip which he said was, quote, for a certain person, to which trevor hallgren who had traveled with hamilton to washington responded, it has gun. later, hallgren commented that there's no escape. we're coming to take you out, to pull you out by your hairs, end

quote. on january 5th hallgren took a tour of the capitol with representative barry loudermilk. has he made any reference to that or tried to explain to his fellow committee members what that tour was about? >> absolutely not. in passing he mentioned to me that he is absolutely disappointed and upset that he was shown to the general public as someone who would, you know, bring harm to the u.s. capitol and that that was not his intention. that is neither here or there. the fact that he gave someone an unauthorized entry to the u.s. capitol the day before the president of the united states sent those people to kill us, to me ought to really send a lot of information to him that our focus is not on the investigators, once again, that

in order for us to have a safe place to work, we need to focus on moving forward with security. i invited mr. loudermilk to go with me to different briefings that i plan on attending i attended one yesterday with the los angeles police department they are experts in dealing with major crowds and securing facilities that are often the target of terrorists and the target of people, you know, outside of los angeles so i think that our time is muc better spent talking about -- and discussing with these professionals how we can move forward and how we can help the capitol police who are heroes that day do do their job a litt better >> congresswoman, i feel like we're going to be calling on you often as this committee has both the -- you couldn't make it up if you tried factor as well as

the important work that you as the ranking member and other democrats will be doing. thank you so much for spending time with us today >> thank you next for us, house democrats are continuing to track how trump and his administration and his family failed to follow the most basic epic laws that exist during their four years in washington the latest reporting documenting missing and unreported gs.if that's next. ♪ this feels so right... ♪ adt systems now feature google products like the nest cam with floodlight,

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democrats on the house oversight committee released a report today listing and detailing and to probably nobody's surprise all the many ways they found that the disgraced twice impeached ex-president broke the law when mishandling gifts he received from other countries and leaders when he was president. from their findings, quote, former president trump and the first family failed to report more than 100 foreign gifts with a total value of over a quarter of a million dollars the investigation follows reporting in "the new york times" more than a year ago about what's now apparently just another way trump mishandled important government property. we're back with mike schmidt whose bilines on the report. mike, as we talk about trump potentially being indicted and inciting political violence, looking into handling of classified documents, you can say he stole stuff that's the numbness that lead to the sameness of trump breaking all the norms, breaking all the rules, and getting away with it.

talk about why the democrats on the oversight committee leased this report. >> look, gifts from foreign countries, the constitution is designed to try and insulate officials from coming under undue influence by foreigners so american policy is not impacted by that. there are different web of regulations around foreign gifts. the trump administration in no way, shape, or form followed them in fact, in 2020, you're supposed to file a list of gifts with the federal register every year about who got gifts from where and how much they were worth. they left and didn't file it for 2020, so there's no -- there was nothing down on paper about any of that. and as we point out in our reporting today about this committee investigation, they found that there are several gifts that are unaccounted for

including a driver, a golf driver that abe had given to trump that is missing, a putter for $400 that was given to trump that is unaccounted for, and a life-sized painting of trump that had been commissioned in el salvador that took six months to create so you know, because gifts are a very confusing thing that don't usually get a lot of attention, it's hard to get to the bottom of who got what and how they got it, and it really requires the people who received the gifts to follow the rules and the laws in order to get that. but that didn't happen here. >> i mean, just another example of obviously donald trump can afford his own golf clubs but stole them because he could. it's amazing mike schmidt, basal, thank you

we're grateful a quick break. on other side america on the world stage with the leader of one of our two political parties saying that some americans, not the russians, are the biggest threat to western civilization that's next. ten years ago, i invented the ring video doorbell for moments like that. and ring security cameras for moments like this. [ring floodlight cam siren sounds] [bear growls] and ring alarm with professional monitoring. ten years of reinventing home security, and tens of millions of safer homes. protect your home, the way i do. learn more at ring.com ♪ ♪ to all the chevy silverado owners out there. the adventurers and the doers. to everyone that works hard and plays hard. whether it's your first silverado or your tenth.

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finally we have to finish the process webegan under my administration of fundamentally re-evaluating nato's purpose and nato's mission our foreign policy establishment keeps trying to pull the world into conflict with a nuclear armed russia based on the lie that russia represents our greatest threat.

but the greatest threat to western civilization today is not russia, it's probably more than anything else ourselves and some of the horrible usa-hating people that represent us >> that really happened. it's 5:00 in new york, the battle lines are drawn on one side trump, trump's gop, as he said there, vladimir putin, and then you got to bring along putin's allies, cups like iran and north korea -- countries like iran and north korea. in trump's words that leaves the rest of us in the horrible usa-hating people who represent us on the other side of course there are no elected officials on the democratic side of the aisle who hate the usa, but what trump is projecting to anyone who threatens him is his hatred of those americans outside his maga movement, outside his cult his hatred, the rule of law -- rule of law americans, people like liz cheney, free press

democrats, of democracy-loving americans. it's a comment that vladimir putin could not have written any better or more artfully himself. instead, it's coming from the current front-runner of the gop nomination for president of these united states in 2024. and all the more galling in light of news that the international criminal court just issued an arrest warrant for putin over his abduction of ukrainian children and teens trump's comments follow his likely primary opponent ron desantis' statement earlier this week saying that protecting ukraine is not in america's national interest. these two men not standing up to russian aggression signal a remarkable departure from what the republican party used to be and used to value. david french writes that in the nooips this way, quote, whereas reagan was a man of strength, confidence, and clarity in the face of a daunting military threat, desantis and trump represent weakness and moral

action big utah in the face of a weaker power desantis and trump personify the gop's dissent. because battling against putin's actions is in america's interests, as senator chris murphy told our colleagues on "morning joe." >> the republican party in particular, the trump wing of the republican party, has decided to turn its back on democracy. i worry that desantis' and trump's support for putin and opposition to ukraine is part and parcel of a broader lack of enthusiasm for democracy and self-governance. if we don't defend ukraine, the entire post world war ii order falls apart, and it is not hyperbole to suggest that putin will move on a nato country which will definitely put the u.s. troops into the fight this is a, frankly, worthwhile and relatively small investment to protect u.s. security and global security in the long run.

>> the current leader of the republican party saying out loud, in front of cameras, and in man make-up that other americans and not russia represent the gravest threat to western civilization is sadly where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. former white house press secretary jen psaki is here, this is the best news of all she's the host of the new msnbc show "inside with jen psaki. it premieres this sunday at noon clear your calendar and get ready to watch it will also stream on peacock charlie sykes, editor at large, msnbc contributor, and nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard in west palm breach glad you're free for anyone who drops in and out of trump's delusions and covers them as sort of a dramatic new position, people who cover him all the time know that is part of a piece, a continuation really, not a new position he sought to exit the united states from nato from the

earliest days of his presidency. there was extraordinary reporting that his first national security adviser, h.r. mcmaster, and his deputy had to force him in repeated confrontations to commit to america's commitment to nato on a foreign trip through europe. he's been disinterested in being part of the west and interested in propping up putin from day one. how did you hear these comments? >> reporter: right i think the word i often come back to with donald trump out of this is the word justification, right. just here this last week suggesting that the attack on the capitol wouldn't have happened if it weren't for mike pence, essentially justifying what ultimately happened on that day. when you're talking about just last year, you know, you'll recall the statement in which he made, quote, a massive fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of rules, regulations, and articles, each those found in the constitution. he called for a new presidential election, again justifying a new

presidential election. and going to rallies around the country last year with him so often the focus particularly around the j6 capitol hill committee's work was this dynamic at play, that it was us against them, and them being u.s. american citizens the framing of this i think is important because often at these rallies he would close with this line -- quote, but no matter how big or powerful these corrupt radicals may be, you must nevnever forget this nation does not belong to them, this nation belongs to you for them donald trump is their leader, and i just ran down the road here in west palm beach to get a quick hair trim here and the barber, an otherwise -- nice guys, but i told him i was here covering the potential indictments of donald trump. and he goes, if you see mr. trump, will you tell him to not back down? this is the dynamic at play. donald trump has never been prosecuted or face an indictment here that is where when we are looking at what could be ahead,

what sort of justification could donald trump make to his supporters as he mounts yet again this presidential run. >> there's so much to unpack there, charlie, in terms of his indifference to slash encouragement of political violence if his supporters feel the way it sounds like vaughn's barber might feel. there's no indication that he will act on those feelings, but trump takes the feeling and likes to exploit it and incite and incentivize action i know that's what we talked about in the last hour, keeping an eye on. but i want to start with the global implications. if you believe that americans, everyone who opposes you legally or politically which for trump is a whole lot of republicans, every democrat, every independent, and every working journalist including vaughn and anybody else who has the truth as their north star, if all those people are a graver threat

than vladimir putin who's aligned with north korea and iran and actively working on slaughtering civilians in ukraine, it's a stop-the-presses moment, right? there is -- there are two things going on it represents an unbelievable statement from one of the two party's front-runner as well as a numbness the country over to the stupid stuff he says >> you're absolutely right on. earth 2.0 this would multiple news cycles. we were told we shouldn't take donald trump literally, we should just take him seriously but not literally, i think it's time to take his seriously and literally here when he's saying the real enemy is not vladimir putin, the real enemy is other americans, this is the nub of trumpism to turn americans against one another, to see your fellow american, people in government, in the defense department, in the department of justice, in the intelligence agencies as the real enemies here because this sends a real signal

about what he would do, but it also sends a real signal to the rest of the world. and you know, that statement that he issued is so remarkable. and we should not be numbed to it he is talking about dumping nato he is talking about his blaming america saying that american foreign policy establishment is lying about russia you know, this statement word for word is indistinguishable from the propaganda that comes out from the kremlin every single day and now you have the former president not only mouthing these things but saying that if he gets back into power he will essentially dismantle the defense department, the intelligence agencies. he will, in fact, you know, get rid of all of them in a massive purge of retribution and replace it with his loyalists. so you know, we should be on notice what a donald trump

presidency or candidacy would mean and also i think, you know, you mentioned the departure from what the republican party used to be. donald trump is not just siding with russia and downplaying russia, he's also signaling to the rest of the world that we might not live up to any of our other commitments for any of our other allies it's not clear to me that he would defend nato allies, it's not clear that he would defend australia, and i think it's incredibly naive to think that having appeased vladimir putin in ukraine that he would credibly be a deterrent to china if it moved on taiwan. so we are living in dangerous, dangerous times, and we shouldn't just go, okay, there's donald trump again saying these things, that was a remarkable statement the other night. >> harlie, i want to take a second and read what you wrote about it because it's so good. here's donald trump channeling kremlin propaganda siding with russia even as he declares that our real enemy is other americans. despite the witch casting

punditry and thinking of rivals and hopes of the hollow many of the gop, this is the presumptive man of the republican party and therefore possibly the next president of the united states the desantis bubble hasn't burst, but it's leaking. i don't mean to alarm you, crossed out, you should be alarmed -- tell me -- you know, i think the press deserves a lot of the criticism it got, right, in '16 for how we covered the trump campaign and i talked from 2015 on about the asymmetry that trump created, that he was so audacious. he blew up all the norms he brought - >> yes >> there was no ability to sort of cover him critically. this isn't a candidate, this is a bully. he's running like a mobster. he's doing it again, and i wonder with what you've written here, what your thoughts are about how we cover him >> well, we are in uncharted territory, and i think -- as i was listening to this on just the audio, i think it was mike schmidt who made the point about

what could possibly happen next week we've never lived in a country where we've had an indicted former president who has millions of people who believe his lies and will support him and who has already shown a willingness to incite violence so we don't know, you know, what the -- the degree of the threat that we face one of the dangers here is complacency or same old, same old, or treating donald trump as if he is just another politician look, ron desantis is saying the same things as donald trump, but donald trump keeps reminding us that he has a unique existential threat to this country and that he represents a radical departure in our foreign policy. i'd also say this, that the fight that gooding to take place in the republican -- that's going to take place in the republican party is crucial. the good news is there are republicans pushing back the bad news is they're not willing to push back against trump. it's safe apparently to criticize ron desantis, not safe

yet because, you know, they're not afraid of desantis, but not safe yet to criticize trump. but we need to have a bipartisan foreign policy bipartisanship has been the foundation of america's foreign policy and its credibility since world war ii we cannot have just one party standing as a bulwark of freedom and democracy. so this fight that we're about to have within the republican party is absolutely crucial, and i have to say that it's deeply alarming if somebody like donald trump is the nominee or, frankly, ron desantis at this point, because we know then that the republican party will not be a reliable champion for freedom around the world >> jen, presidential campaigns usually don't come down to debates over foreign policy. it's not typically front of mind for voters however, if desantis or trump are the nominee, it will represent such a departure not just from republican orthodoxy

but from american another docksy -- american orthodoxy. it will be walking away from ukraine, standing with russia that is aligned with north korea and iran you can already see the pompeo, pence, bolton, axis rubbing where the heat is in the republican base, and that's desantis and trump what do you make of how that might play out >> look, i think as charlie said the most interesting question first is how does this play out in the republican primary. as you and i both know, some of these issues lines the defense of nato, like the defense of democracy around the world have never been partisan questions. they're suddenly partisan questions, right these were always issues that there was broad agreement on but first the republican party has to decide what kind of values they represent. i very much could see where if you're sitting in the white house right now you're thinking about what is your messaging going to be on this, and if this does play out not to be the front and center but one you

talk about to contrast it's the continuation of what joe biden has been talking about which is democracy versus autocracy. it's here, true in the united states, it's true around the world. it matters because our values are what we stand for her, and they're what we stand for overseas first step is how it plays out in the republican primary, and then we don't know just because it hasn't been the primary issue in the past, we don't know that it won't be six months, a year from now because they're echoing talking points that are replicating the kremlin, that sound like putin could write them, that putin would give them in one of his long press conferences, and that is something had is a palatable contrast potentially for the public >> jen, but a great interview with gretchen whitmer, hoping to see the whole thing on your show let me show what some of what she had to say about this very topic. >> so another potential candidate i guess i'll call him, fellow governor ron desantis, recently made some comments or actually made clear this week i should say that supporting

ukraine is not a vital national interest to the united states. what do you say to that? >> i am not an expert on geopolitics, but i will say this -- i think it's really dangerous when politicians are using language that is coming out of the kremlin. there's no question that calling that a territorial dispute is to undermine and downplay the russian invasion, the illegal russian invasion of ukraine. and a state that has such a robust ukrainian population, it is offensive, maddening, and i think it's really dangerous for national security. >> she sounded pretty expert on gee political issues >> good -- >> literally everything that's going on, she herself has been the subject of plots to assassinate and kidnap her she's got a sharp critique of this policy position from republican governor ron desantis >> she did she also said which i thought was interesting because i, like you, am skeptical of how this issue is continuing to resonate

in the public more than a year into this war. and i asked that question, do people talk about this, do they care about it? there is a larger ukrainian population relative to some other states in michigan, but she said people are flying flags, they know what our values are. they care about what the united states is doing because it's something bigger than a conflict that's happening far away in the world. it feels like something bigger to people including in michigan which i thought was pretty interesting and contrast a little bit with what sometimes we think about how this resonates with the public. >> vaughn, i want to -- i'm struck by your reporting, and i just want to show our viewers the evolution of traction to putin because it started at a pretty high pitch for donald trump. but it's only -- it's become almost sink nicety let me play this >> putin hates us, he hates obama. doesn't hate us. i think he'd like me i'd get along great with him, i think, want to know the truth.

i remember putin, he's a strong leader, i can tell you that. unlike what we have. we have a pathetic leader. if he says great things about me, i'm going to see great things about him i have great confidence in my intelligence people, but i will tell you that president putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today i went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and i said, this is genius putin declares a big portion of the ukraine -- of ukraine -- putin declares it as independent, oh, that's wonderful. >> i mean, there are hunting dogs more immune to flattery than donald trump has been over the years. i mean, the attraction has always been there, but the parroting of putin's kremlin positions is really the finer point i wanted to drive home and what putin sought to do through sort of dark ops and troll farms, he has trump and,

frankly, tucker carlson doing for him in front of massive audiences. >> reporter: right and i think actually if i may, it was cpac two weekends ago where i think it's a perfect demonstration of how this is playing out among the base of the grassroots republican party today, if you may. and instead of a focus there on defending ukraine, supporting the democratic alliance, you know, this is a republican party that was welcoming bolsonaro to cpac two weeks ago victor orban was there last year i got to catch up with jair bolsonaro, and he had the second loudest applause of anybody, second to donald trump even trump when he took the stage noted that he got a bigger applause than any american did here bolsonaro, of course, is the former brazilian president who fled here to florida and really we saw the echoes, we saw a capitol siege in brazil, we saw

an individual who when i was trying to interview him would only grin when i asked if he would concede his presidential election, and to this conservative grassroots base of supporters that view donald trump as their man for 2024, they feel bolsonaro as equally a defender of his own country and his own election there so when you're talking about the democratic institutions and last december when macron questioned the reliability of the united states because of the trump administration is a sharp contrast to who today's republican party is standing with when you compare it to which national leaders they take the stage with >> it's so amazing that it's all out in the open now. vaughn, thank you for being on this beat and for being with us and for all your great reporting. jen and charlie, stick around. when we come back, more from our friend jen psaki's interview with gretchen whitmer. hear what she has to say about being at the center of plots and as we await a ruling on

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♪ ♪ get directv with a two year price guarantee. my mental health was much better, but i struggled with uncontrollable movements called td, tardive dyskinesia. td can be caused by some mental health meds. and it's unlikely to improve without treatment. i felt like my movements were in the spotlight. ingrezza is a prescription medicine to treat adults with td movements. ingrezza is different. it's the simple, once-daily treatment proven to reduce td that's #1 prescribed. people taking ingrezza can stay on their current dose of most mental health meds. ingrezza 80 mg is proven to reduce td movements in 7 out of 10 people. don't take ingrezza if you're allergic to any of its ingredients. ingrezza may cause serious side effects, including sleepiness. don't drive, operate heavy machinery, or do other dangerous activities until you know how ingrezza affects you. other serious side effects include potential heart rhythm problems and abnormal movements.

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woo! i want to hear you say it out loud. well, i could switch us to xfinity. those smiles. that's why i do what i do. that and the paycheck. so beyond the political threats, you have also been targeted by militia groups, you've talked about this a fair amount there was the plot to kidnap you back in 2020, that was thankfully, of course, stopped by the fbi does there creep into your head? militia groups are groups that would not be proponents of gun legislation. does it creep into your head as you're thinking about pushing this forward and getting this

passed and what the opponents of it may think or do >> yeah. i mean, i'd be lying if i said i don't think about all the threats that i have received or that my family has received or that other public officials have received it is so scary and so common in this country right now for people to just threaten someone with whom they disagree. that's not what this democracy's all about. it needs to be called out. we need -- we must take action where we can to mitigate the likelihood of these events >> that was a little more from jen's interview with michigan governor whitmer who unfortunately is no stranger to threats of violence. as you heard there the governor is bracing for what could be a new wave of threats against her as she prepares to push through sweeping gun reform in her state just yesterday the michigan state senate approved bills that would expand background check requirements for firearm purchase and also enact a red flag law which would allow guns to be taken from people who are deemed a risk to themselves or

others we're back with jen and charlie. jen, tell us more about what she had to say and why you picked her for your first interview on your first show. >> well, i just think she's such an interesting and fascinating and fearless, frankly, nicole, person in democratic politics today. she's young. you heard her just say there, you know, she's had these threats which you have covered extensively against not just her but against a number of other prominent officials in michigan, jewish state legislators in michigan, and they're not just hiding in the corner, right, or hiding in the basement they won back the legislature, first time in 40 years she's got the governor's mansion. and they are plowing through with legislation they've done a tax cut, they've done worker protections, she signed into law yesterday an lgbtq-plus law, they're getting this gun legislation done. and i loved how she was honest that she -- of course it's on her mind, but you have to plow forward and be fearless which i thought is a very powerful message to so many people out there who are afraid, who are

afraid of the threats against them, who are just trying to do their jobs but also facing these threats day to day finally, i think, nicole, she's such an interesting contrast with someone like governor desantis, i asked her about governor desantis, too, of course, we just talked about in the same period of time where he is putting in place restrictions, discriminatory language on lgbtq-plus couples and families, she is signing a law proudly in public. there is interesting contrasts between governors and i'm looking forward to seeing what she does in the future >> charlie, i was listening to that answer and thinking of kevin mccarthy and lindsey graham and rob portman and richard burr and all the profiles in cowardice. she's out there doing the right thing because she knows that if you bend or change or balk that they've won. you look at like an entire political party on the other side, predominantly male, made the opposite calculation >> no, it is interesting with all this talk about who the

bravest guys are, that liz cheney and gretchen whitmer pose quite a contrast i'm glad that jen asked her about these threats because this is another one of those reality checks that the threat of violence is not theoretical. we don't need to sit around and have a seminar thinking how dangerous can these militias be, might this morph into something really deadly. it did it almost became deadly in michigan we know this happened. you would hope that something like this would have been a sobering moment, that people would realize, my goodness, we are talking about plots to kidnap and assassinate a governor of one of the major states in this country, maybe we ought to back off from the rhetoric, maybe we ought to dial it down, maybe we should stop trying to foment televhis in our country. and the other thing worth remembering and this is pint worth making is that people like

gretchen whitmer are courageous, but they're also real people i think we forget that people in politics are real people, they have families and lives. they wake up thinking what is going to happen to me, am i putting myself at risk, might be i killed, might i be wounded or injured? this is a reality in our lives right now. and so this -- the tendency that we have is to think of them as entities or institutions this is a very, very personal thing. and i think it's important to keep remembering as we have this discussion about, you know, is -- is political violence a danger into this country, we only need to point at what's already happened on january 6th and what almost happened to gretchen whitmer >> i love charlie's point, jen, about humans and humanizing and the other side of it is that the study of extremism is to -- it starts with dehumanization it is the sort of gateway to encouraging people and creating

a structured act on extremism, the next level is violent extremism. i wonder what your thoughts were of governor gretchen whitmer as a human. >> you know, i loved that point, too, charlie and i found her -- she was talking about her daughter coming to join her in between the interview, coming to join her at this signing of this lgbtq-plus bill. she is somebody, she's a mom, she talked a lot about how the gun legislation she's pushing forward, she thinks of her daughters who are students at the university of michigan you know, those are things we all relate to. nicole, you're a mom, i'm a mom. whenever these shootings happen, that's the first thing i think of that is how she is impacted, too. it was extremely relatable, and i also think -- i loved her honesty about all of that had because ultimately these elected officials are people they have families it is scary. it is scary when there are

threats against you. she has a security detail with her, of course they have to navigate and plan for these threats. she still wants to get stuff done, and that's where you see kind of that fearless courage in these moments. it's -- you know, that piece was very inspiring >> jen and charlie, thank you very much for this conversation. here's the most important thing we're going to say over the next -- the course of the two hours -- you, if you're watching, can catch jen's new show "inside with jen psaki" every sunday, but it starts this sunday at noon it's right here on msnbc it's streaming on peacock. jen, we're so happy this has finally got takeoff. congratulations, and good luck we'll be watching. >> thank you, nicole >> listen to this lineup for the first show joined by democratic leader hakeem jeffries, michigan governor whitmer, we showed you some of that, and new york city mayor eric adams wow. up next for us, the vice president speaks out on the potential consequences of a ruling on abortion medication

warning that republicans won't stop at a national ban on abortion they want to take over the public health system itself. we'll show you her comments after a quick break. eed is 101 s old this year and counting. i'm bill lockwood, current caretaker and owner. when covid hit, we had some challenges like a lot of businesses did. i heard about the payroll tax refund, it allowed us to keep the amount of people that we needed and the people that have been here taking care of us. see if your business may qualify. go to getrefunds.com. ♪♪ entresto is the #1 heart failure brand prescribed by cardiologists. it was proven superior at helping people stay alive and out of the hospital. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems,

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after my car accident, ♪ call owondnder whahatmy c cas. eight million ♪ so i called the barnes firm. i'm rich barnes. youour cidedentase e woh than insurance offered? call the barnes firm now to find out. yoyou ght t beurprpris let's just first recognize where we are which is again that a group of elected politicians are attempting to use the court of law to implement a political

agenda wa understand what this means there is so much about this issue that really does attack very fundamental issues and principles if politicians could start using the court to undo doctors' decisions, imagine where that could lead >> vice president kamala harris in iowa yesterday addressing a lawsuit that seeks to stop the use of abortion pills. it was heard earlier in the week in amarillo. harris there highlighting how conservatives emboldened by the supreme court's overturning of roe versus wade have only become more and more extreme in their pursuit of an anti-choice legislative agenda, one they've been pushing in some instances advocating for putting women to death for having an abortion bills have been introduced in states such as texas, kentucky, south carolina, oklahoma, and arkansas to charge women with

homicide if they terp night a pregnancy which -- terminate pregnancy which is punishable by the death penalty in all of those states joining us, npr correspondent sarah mckaman, the president and ceo of the national women's law center, and our friend minnie tamaroju is back with us, as well we have tried to keep all of these pieces in focus this week, and minnie, you've helped us do that all week long if you take the vice president's comment and you pull back, what's really clear is that a full frontal assault on criminalizing women for having the wombs, for having the equipment to reproduce in the first place. and i wonder if you, i'll start with you, minnie, if you feel like the side of freedom and the side advocating for women's autonomy and for doctors' authority is prepared for just how extreme and how brutal the republican assault is turning out to be. >> i think -- thanks for having me i think our side has been

prepared, i hate to say it, for decades. this was the end game, the opponents for reproductive freedom have been barreling toward this for a very long time we've been saying it, shouting it they also meant to overturn roe. we knew they were coming after birth control, ivf, women's liberties and freedoms all along. however, we faced a really significant believability gap in this fight now post dobs more americans are with us and aware of this than ever and it's shocking to see how aggressive republican extremists are being in these states. but it's not shocking when you look at the road that led us to this moment. and that's targeted restrictions against abortion providers, violence and harassment of abortion providers, and really nefarious attacks on our democracy that led to this point. >> fatima, you know, not so long ago was politically lethal to oppose exceptions in the case of

life of the mother, exceptions in the case of rape and incest let me read a little bit from the planned parenthood amicus brief before the supreme court in the sba case. a 13-year-old patient had to get a judicial bypass before scheduling an abortion which delayed her. and then embryonic cardiac activity was detected at six weeks and three days she cannot leave texas without her parents knowing because she cannot drive in houston, a 12-year-old patient who came in with hear mother, a sing working mother with other children, the mother said they could not travel out of state they had barely made it to the texas health center. the 12-year-old said, mom, it was an accident, why are they making me keep it? the victims of the extreme policies and politics are real, and a lot of instances they're children themselves. >> you know, these stories are sobering and important one of the things that the vp has been doing i think is helping people broadly

understand the consequences in real time. but their end game has always been the same, they just haven't talked about it in the same way. the game had always been to end abortion access in this country for everyone and across this country. and one of the things that i think is so important is that people are now understanding that it is not just texas or not just oklahoma or tennessee, it is everywhere. they are seeking for this reality to be in every part of the country no matter the consequences and even the states that are debating exceptions, what's really clear is that they have no intention of ensuring that people can be well, that their lives will be protected. they're not on our side. >> sarah, you are covering and were in theroom i believe during this hearing for the texas abortion pill case which, again, to fatima's point is not just about texas, it's about

whether a long-ago-approved drug will remain available for women for medical abortions which are the primary way that most women have abortions in our country. take us inside what that hearing was like and where you think this is heading. >> well, first of all, it was a very small courtroom there were room for only a few dozen members of the public and the press to be there, and the courtroom did notal -- the judge did not allow recording or cameras or a public live stream. until just really a few minutes ago when we at npr published the transcript, it was the only way for the public to know what happened is for the handful of reporters including myself who were able to get in the room and, you know, take the handwritten notes old school but what happened was there was a lot of focus on of course the claims of this lawsuit which was brought by a group of anti-abortion doctors and medical groups who oppose abortion rights. their argument is that the fda

improperly approved mifepristone, the abortion pill, more than 20 years ago they're asking the judge to overturn the approval and essentially take away access to the drug of course, the fda's lawyers represented by the department of justice were there in the room pointing out that the drug has been on the market for more than 20 years, it's been used by millions of women, and according to groups like the american medical association, has a very strong safety record of course like any drug, there are side effects, and the plaintiffs are focusing on that quite a bit. but again, the overwhelming consensus of the medical community after more than 20 years is that this is a safe drug for most people, if used correctly. >> mini, we talked about this earlier in the week. the drug has a better safety record than tylenol and viagra even the arguments being made by the plaintiffs don't seem to be ones being made in good faith. what are you watching for in this case? >> you know, we're watching to see how broad the judge goes you know, we're talking a lot

about mifeprmifepristone, but is important to understand that, you know, the other drug has been mentioned and they've asked for the judge to weigh in. it's also -- there's also other legal ramifications beyond fda authorization. we're watching to see if they're going to invoke the comstock act and if they're going to place -- the judge is going to place restrictions on access for medication abortion by mail. you know, we just don't know how extreme and how far he will go so i think understanding the scope of what he's going to cover is going to be key, and the devil will be in the details. we expect 100% for him to rule in a way that is going to be disastrous, but make no mistake, it could be much more disastrous depending on how broad he goes >> unbelievable, unbelievable escalation on the part of the extremists sarah, fatima, mini, stick around much more onhe t week that was and what's ahead don't go anywhere.

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false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ (group) i did it my way! ♪ pain was keeping me from being fully present with my family. but now i can be myself again... with my favorite people in my favorite places. blue-emu is the powerful relief i need. blue-emu, it works fast and you won't stink. sarah, fatima, and mini are all back sarah, some of your great reporting and other reporting about how this lawsuit came to be heard in amarillo is deeply suspect that the anti-choice doctors and the other plaintiffs opened a facility in amarillo to get before this judge. any acknowledgment of the form shopping and manipulation of the legal process by them? >> so the group is called alliance for hippocratic

medicine, and it's a coalition of existing groups and individuals. and they did open up shop in amarillo, texas, and filed a lawsuit there. legal observers i have talked to say it looks like a clear case of judge shopping. judge kacmaryk has a long conservative track record as a donald trump appointee and was to rule favorably to this group. i've talked to abortion rights proponents and one in texas said everyone sort of uses the legal system that way, and is mindful of the judges they use certainly kacmaryk has a very long conservative track record you know, that wasn't really the focus of the hearing, but it's something that's very much on people's minds as they look at this case. >> yeah. and i guess, fatima, if you step back and look at the national coordinated -- too's a conspiracy, right, to go further than the dobbs decision went and it is amazing, it is -- it was a long-held goal on the right to overturn roe, but what's behind it is so much less

popular, so much more extreme politically. things that prominent republican politicians wouldn't have touched, bans that eliminate the exceptions we talked about and what it's ushered in is an entirely new landscape and it seems like it is a feature, not a bug, to do this legal form shopping. i want to read something that was in "the new york times" this week from a doctor in tennessee. it says this, quote, other health care professionals in tennessee and i are trying to reform one of the most restrictive bans in the country. the human life protection act, removing a six-week ectopic pregnancy in the fallopian tube or treating inevitable miscarriage in tennessee is by definition a criminal offense. i believe the state's law was intended to be ambiguous and confusing to make physicians scared to provide abortion incentivized to wait i believe pregnant women will die if this hasn't occurred already as a direct result of

the current law. we are gambling with her life. the plaintiffs in the texas lawsuit have dealt with this we had an opportunity to int interview one who was septic before she received the health care she needed. >> unfortunately, the story in "the new york times" is a story that we have been hearing about frequently what we are hearing is providers saying that they are nervous or worried about performing care that they need to provide, care that is life saving, care they know they should provide having to check with lawyers with as much as 100-year criminal penalties on the table if they get it wrong the people who are bearing the brunt of that are the patients people who need care we knew that dobbs was

desta destabilizing. they railroaded into that instability, trying to use the court and law as cover there will be consequences, health and life consequences as a result >> mini, we will give you the last word. >> i can't agree more with fatima thank you, sara, for being in the courtroom. it's nerve-racking for the entire community to not have information. to be on pins and needles about the most popular form of medication abortion in this country. we are, as the vice president said, in terrifying times. we know that the courts are being manipulated for political gain frankly, we think this is a moment for us to examine court reform, democracy as a whole and for our movements to be really, really thoughtful about what we

need do to strengthen our democracy, our courts, our ethics and make sure our voices are heard, not waiting until next year. we have big fights ahead this year, too. voters can make their voices heard. >> we will stay on it. sara, thank you for your reporting and talking to us about it fatima, thank you for being here mini, thank you for joining these conversations. a quick break for us we will be right back. the better. that's why america's beverage companies are working together to deliver more great tasting options with less sugar or no sugar at all. in fact, today, nearly 60% of beverages sold contain zero sugar. different sizes? check. clear calorie labels? just check. with so many options, it's easier than ever to find the balance that's right for you. more choices. less sugar. balanceus.org when you have chronic kidney disease. there are places you'd like to be.

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a bit of new news on a story we have been discussing today, one that has law enforcement on edge with preparations underway by the nypd and fbi, according to reporting from nbc news we are talking about the potential, possible indictment of donald j. trump the attorney for donald trump telling nbc news that trump will follow normal procedures if he is indicted and has to surrender to authorities concerned had been mounting he would refuse to turn himself in, setting up a situation in which he would have to be extradited from florida he will be normal if indicted. that's news. quick break for us we will be right back. so, long live family time. long live dreams. and long live you. kisqali is a pill proven to help women live longer when taken with an aromatase inhibitor. and kisqali helps preserve quality of life.

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