never seen on tv before, and w have a lot of ideas abou criminals. most of them are very grim tragic ideas, but there's a lo of humor and my family my dad and i have a very a lightness to us. you know, so i think it's, wha i'm hoping is is that we can teach everybody in america a little more about relationship and how do we open our heart and how do we love better, that's really what it's about. well, that does it for morning joe weekend. we really appreciate you spending your saturday with us >> yeah. get me another cup of coffee make sure it's hot, extra hot, extra foam >> very good >> a vanity. >> we'll be back monday. >> i need that now have a great weekend, and we'l see you monday morning >> get on with it. so >> that this is the katie

phang show, live from miami, florida. we've got lots of news to cove and lots of questions to answer, so, let's get started. indictment watch with th latest news that the new yor district attorney's office may indict former president donald trump as early as next wee i'll talk to glenn kershne about the indictment might loo like a what we can expect next in the process and breaking overnight, wyomin becomes the first state to outlaw abortion pills. i want to know, could this jus be the beginning as we await a texas ruling that could have national implications? and an arrest warrant for th president of russia. vladimir putin the international criminal court accusing the russian leader of war crimes i ukraine. have the white house i responding ♪ ♪ ♪ >> the chilly morning you, i'm katie phang we begin today wit the strongest signs yet but new york red jury may have already returned an indictment

for former president donal trump. we can see his arraignment a soon as next week. nbc news has learned that local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies are als preparing for the possibilit of an indictment according t five senior officials thos preparations include discussin potential security plans aroun the manhattan criminal courthouse yesterday, we also learned fro trump's personal attorney at the former president wil surrender to a - if he is indicted. all this stemming from a alleged hush putting payment made to adult film star, storm daniels, in advance of the presidential election. he designs any affair and says he did nothing wrong joining me now, glenn kershner former federal prosecutor, msnbc legal analyst and th host of the justice matter podcast. glenn, my friend, had to hav you on the day look, it was always just a matter of time before justic would come for donald trump. with regard to this particular indictment, what charges could

we expect to see >> yeah, good morning, katie it's nice to see some movement on the justice front it is a bit of a fools erran to predict with the grand jury might have decided to indict donald trump for, but let it b a little foolish of learning and take a crack at it we have heard a lot about th charge of falsifying busines records now, that is a misdemeanor crime in new york. unless you are falsifying thos business records in further -- furtherance of other crimes, t facilitate them, or to cover o other crimes i would be really surprised if what we see next week, assumin he is indicted and the indictment is unsealed, i woul be really surprised if all w saw was a misdemeano falsifying business record charge i suspect we are going to se probably three, four, five perhaps more charges that coul look like campaign finance violations, violations of ne york state law they could look like tax crime

because reportedly, donald trump went on to take the hush money reimbursement payments a business expenses, which, of course, is tax fraud i think we are in a guessing game posture right now, but suspect we will see a handfu of charges next week >> so glenn, let's continue on that path of some optimism i trump is indicted, what will happen at that arraignment what happens next in the criminal justice process >> so, an arraignment is just fancy term for your first cour appearance after you have been indicted, and the judge or the clerk of the court will read the indictment to the defendant, unless he chooses to waive reading of the indictment. it is simply to put a defendan on notice of what he has spent the night at four, and wha charges he will have to defend against at trial the big ticket question is what does the judge do pending that next court hearing? the judge will have to make decision he or she could just release him on his persona

recognizance, or the judge could impose some conditions o release, perhaps trave restrictions, perhap surrendering a passport, prohibiting the defendant, donald trump, who travelin overseas i don't suspect w will see much more onerous restrictions set than perhap some travel restrictions, bu that is the issue the judg will have to take up, and then there will be what we call a interest status hearing th next court hearing at whic they will begin to sort ou things like a schedule for motions to be filed, and perhaps even setting a trial date >> glenn, very quickly, in related news, a federal judg who ruled yesterday th prosecutors overseeing the investigation into trump's handling of classified materials at mar-a-lago ca compel one of his lawyers, ethan corcoran, to answe questions before a grand jury. that's according to the ne york times, citing two peopl familiar with the matter now, the daily beast i reporting that judge howel turned over to special counsel jack smith some of corcoran' written documents regardin donald trump this is the second federal

judge to now find that crime fraud exception applies to any attorney-client privileg between trump and hi attorneys. what does that ruling from yesterday signify to you i terms of where smith's investigation is now in term of the timing of it, concernin the mar-a-lago case? >> it is moving forward, not only quickly, but in a reall dramatic weighs. rarely do prosecutors try to subpoena the attorney that represents the target of the grand jury investigation not only did jack smit subpoenas ethan corcoran, bu he has now succeeded i piercing the attorney-client privilege. judge pebble ruled it doesn' apply, because there was som crime, some fraud going on between donald trump and stephen corcoran we don't know with eva corcoran was acting knowingl in concert with trump, suc that he is complicit in th crime, or if trump was using unknowingly, unwittingly, to further his donald trump's crimes those distinctions have a bi consequence to evan corcoran

because now, people walking to the grand jury, and if he wa complicit and donald trump's crimes, i would fully expect him to plead the fifth and focus his fifth amendment righ against self incrimination then, jack smith's team will have to decide whether to gran immunity and extract the information from him compel him to testify an potentially incriminate hi client, donald trump >> when, there's a lot o questions that are swirlin after some of trump's counsel, including joe tacopina, oh wen to the media rounds during the weekdays of donald trump's defense in this case concernin the stormy daniels hush mone payments is anything that is being said by trump's lawyer is going t be imputed to donald trump and the gray could it be used against him i a court of law >> now you know, lessons of the lawyers are not the sins of th clients. when it comes to admissibl evidence, so, isa becky will hear lots of facts and eve some alternative facts as thes defense attorneys wage what is

largely a pr campaign. right? this is not a legal battle o we hear his attorneys go on tv and talk about the defense tha donald trump might have or might present. but i suspect they are going t ratchet up, because it looks like donald trump has a losing case in court, so he will figh this battle in the court o public opinion >> and glenn, what does it tell you, reading tea leaves a little bit, because you and i are former prosecutors we always watch to see who's on the other side of the aisle from us what does it tell you about the fact that donald trump did change up his defense team is that some type of insight baseball that they knew on the trump side that perhaps, a indictment was imminent from a least alvin bragg's office you and i are waiting for fulton county da, fani willis, to make her move as well >> donald trump has run throug a lot of lawyers so many o them have found themselves i hot water, being sanctioned, some of them are sort of on th verge, excuse me, f bein

permanently disbarred. and i don't want to be unkin to these defense attorneys, bu donald trump does seem to have a real hard time following finding quality, experienced counsel. i don't want to say he scrapin the bottom of the barrel, but have a feeling the prosecutors are looking across the courtroom, figurativel speaking, and they are probabl feeling like, you know what? i like our odds of a conviction not just because of th evidence we have amassed o donald trump's crimes, but i a feeling pretty good about ou opponents, because they don' seem to be the sort of top tie [interpreter defense attorneys you woul think a former president would hire >> glenn, another quic question for you we know that the grand jury, that special grand jury, som of them spoke after that fulto county georgia investigation being led by da fani willis. a lot of them reinforcing what the foreperson said, which is, the indictment should be

imminent we have recommendations fo incitement recommendations for charges. do you think that, perhaps, if an indictment comes from brags office next week, that i exactly that first domino that needs to fall to be able t hasten other indictments and charges brought from offices like fani willis and maybe eve special counsel jack smith sometime soon, concernin mar-a-lago at the least? >> absolutely, katie i have long maintained that no prosecutor it's enthusiastic about being the first one to criminally indict a former president of the united states it will bring the white ho glare of the world's attention on that prosecutor, that prosecutors, team th investigators working that case, but once that legal maiden voyage has been taken, onc that barrier has been broken, think every other prosecutor will say to him or herself, yo know what? donald trump committed crime in my jurisdictional backyard, so to speak. i now need to step up and brin charges as well.

there is strength in numbers not that that impacts ou prosecutor tarrio decisions, other prosecutors and othe jurisdictions are doing, but i do think there is a search comfort level, when multiple jurisdictions bring well founded cases against the same defendant, and when i saw thos jurors interviewed by th atlanta journal-constitution i that deep dive interview, th article ended with one of th jurors talking about what is about to come. that juror said, it's going to be massive it's going to be massive, th juror said it twice i'm goin to go out on a limb and sa what's coming in fulton county georgia, is going to be massiv >> glenn kirschner, lucky. when i take no joy or glee i the idea of a former president of the united states being indicted but you and i have als maintained that justice matters, and i think we are about to se justice happen i appreciate you joining m this morning, glenn and th photo having you back soon >> thank you, katie. >> and coming up, sell or be

banned we will dive into the bide administration's crackdown - sorry, i have some breakin news we have breaking news. former president donald trum posting on truth social that h will be arrested tuesday he called the manhatta district attorney's office highly political, and called for protests to quote, take ou nation back. now, note, we have not heard from the manhattan distric attorney's office on this post this posts that was just don by donald trump this morning and coming up later in the sho -- we will be right back. hey're going. and at chevron, we're working to help reduce the carbon intensity of the fuels that keep things moving. today, we're producing renewable diesel that can be used in existing diesel tanks. and we're committed to increasing our renewable fuels production. because as we work toward a lower carbon future, it's only human to keep moving forward.

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recapping our breaking news. former president donald trum has now posted on truth social this morning that he will be arrested tuesday of next week. he called the manhatta

district attorney's office highly political and called fo protests to quote, take ou nation back. i want to know we have not heard for the manhatta district attorney's office t get on this. again, this truth social posed by donald trump was just o this morning we are actually working on getting that post up for you right now. i would emphasize that what th president, or the former president trump has said, is that according to the manhatta district attorney's office with leaks from the office, he is now claiming that the forme president of the united states of america, oddly again, referring to himself in th third person, will be arrested on tuesday of next week. now, here is what is disturbin about his post as well he says quote, protests, com up, take our nation back considering what happened on january six at the unite states capitol, obviously, tha gives some price for concern but donald trump now, in his own words, posting on trut social that he expects to be arrested on tuesday of nex

week, which is just in a few days, again, this is breakin news that has just occurred. donald trump indicating they will be arrested on tuesday by the manhattan district attorney's office. in his post, he is blaming a whole bunch of records o violent crime and making whole bunch of allegations about who has been funding things, but a the end of the day, he i indicating he expects to b arrested on tuesday of nex week he indicates to his followers, quote, protests take our nation back that type of language is incendiary and obviously suggests some type of inciting of violence by the forme president, in this case, notably, the president, th former president donald trump, has been making numerous posts he's been using his defens council to be able to do wage, a public relations war in th court of public opinion, to be able to talk about what he thinks is reportedly unfai treatment by multipl prosecutors and multiple district attorney an

prosecutors offices. but this is actually donal trump's own words. this is not his lawyer, not hi lawyers, who are making th rounds, making claims, and offering up defenses about wha he's potentially facing, charges he could be facing what we have now is the former president of the united states indicating that heat will be arrested on tuesday of nex week this comes on the tail of hi defense attorney, one of his defense journeys joey tacopina period on my colleague our emails show the beat wherein joe tacopina in a case that there was a confidentia set up between donald trump an stormy daniels and that that is the reason wh donald trump lied or didn' indicate that he was aware o the 130,000 dollar payment tha was made by his former fixer and personal counsel, michae cohen that was according to jo tacopina, his defense attorney indicating that that money was

and condition of a confidentia sentiment and that is th reason why donald trump, whe asked impressed by the press o air force one indicated that h had no idea what anybody was talking about concerning the 130,000 dollar payment but we now know that donal trump is taking the position that because of a confidential settlement, that he could no actually acknowledge that that payment was made so, again, if you are just joining us now there i breaking news. donald trump has indicated o truth social that he will be arrested on tuesday of nex week by the manhattan district attorney's office. he is indicating that this information is coming from quote unquote, leaks from th manhattan district attorney' office but he is again asking his followers and the people who are following him on truth social, and if you are looking at the screen that we actually have that post it is in all caps, lengthy with questionable punctuation. but it does indicate that he will be arrested on tuesday of next week.

those are his exact words. and then immediately following those words, quote, protests take our nation back indicating to his follower that they have to quote, tak our nation back. which is obviously concerning, and it makes you wonder whethe or not he knows that he is actually maybe walking himself into more allegations that h is inciting violence, whic also would be relevant to th fact that we have learned from federal state and local la enforcement agencies, that there is a security plan tha is being implemented for the manhattan criminal courthous for next week in the event h is indicted. so i am going to bring back in right now, glenn kirschner nbc legal analyst, forme federal prosecutor, friend o the show, and someone who definitely know could be abl to help us out and, glenn, we will stick with this because it is obviously really important at the end of the last block i asked you about statements tha were made by trump's defense attorneys and whether that could be imputed to him. this is donald trump posting o trump truth social, and thes

statements are being made. could these things be used against donald trump these posts untrue social? >> katie, under the rules of evidence, this is what we call the statement a party opponent i would've slap a government exhibits sticker on this pos and i wanted to sit out hi criminal trial and this is a dark moment in our nation's history i'm glad you got to break th news, katie. because what we have just seen is basically, come to d.c. o january 6th. we will be wild. two point oh and i am sorry to say that for months i have been saying on air and online, that the momen donald trump knows he's been indicted, his first post wil be coming to manhattan or come to georgia for my agreement. we'll be wild. he knows precisely what he i doing. he used similar language t incite, to entice hi supporters to come to d.c. o january 6th. and then he proceeded to incit

imminent, lawless action and he has done it all ove again. but, everything donald trump does is a miscalculation katie. and here is why. he has now just given the judg that will preside over his arraignment hearing, food fo thought about what kind of conditions should be set for the release of this dangerou man pending trial. because this is a dog whistl just as sure as him telling th proud boys, stand back and stand by he just directed his supporters some of whom we know are violent, to come to manhatta for his arraignment. protests, take our country back we've heard it all before, katie. and here he is being reckles and arguably inciting imminent lawless conduct all over again >> glenn, we know in this post his indicating, keeping former

president trump, is indicating that these are leaks from th da's office that is suggesting that he is going to be arreste on tuesday let's be honest, you and i bot know we have practice law in th criminal arena we know that there is conversation that has been going on in some way about having him turn himself in one question that's been posed to me repeatedly during this past week is this idea, he's i florida at mar-a-lago. does he have to actually bring himself to new york in order t be fingerprinted is he going to be in handcuffs people are wondering is there going to be a per walk is there any way, glenn, tha you could foresee that donal trump could stay in florida no actually have to appear in person for his arraignment >> you know, i hope not. because he should not be handled differently then you or i, or any other person wh is accused or who is indicte for a crime. we would be either arrested an taken to the appropriate polic facility to be booked, booking includes filling up police paperwork, fingerprinting th

defendant, taking arrest photo or what are often referred t as mugshots. all of that will be done usually you cannot present somebody in court to b arraigned on an indictment virtually. there have been some modifications as we had to mov through the era of covid but i suspect donald trump wil be personally brought to manhattan. he will be booked. i think it unlikely we will se a perp walk, which is why hi attorney tried to get in front of this and st., donald trum will appear wherever you want, whenever you want for purposes of being booked and arraigned. and i think that was the defense attorney's determination to avoid the public spectacle of seeing a former president of the united states in handcuffs bein walked into a police station but let me add this, katie he did this back on januar six. the people that he called to the capital, and then told, go to the capitol and fight lik

hell are you won't have country anymore. now stop the steal those people are being imprisoned by the hundreds we just heard that the department of justice is expecting another 700 to 100 arrests for insurrectionists who attacked the capitol tha day. and donald trump pardoned none of them, notwithstanding his big talk about pardoning people i hope people don't fall int the same trap of coming to manhattan and protesting pursuant to donald trump's cal today, to do so. because they will end up, if they engage in violence, the same place where they are thei friends event of the which is at the d.c. jai serving time for listening t donald trump's orders. >> if you are just joining u now, glenn kirschner, msnb legal analyst and i are talkin with youth social posts that donald trump is just on this morning indicating that he wil be arrested by the manhattan da's office next week. glenn, before you joined us

didn't have the luxury o having you here. i did want to re-up somethin to you there were some statements mad on my colleague, already melbourne's show this week b his defense attorney his attorney indicating that trump denied the payment t stormy daniels because there was a quote unquot confidential settlemen agreement. glenn, i am going to assum that you agree with me that an type of payment that was made, even if it was pursuant to a settlement agreement, does not preclude the government from being able to go after donal trump for violating either state or federal laws, correct >> yeah, you know, nondisclosure agreements don't work as defenses to criminal conduct. those are contractual, civil contractual matters. so i do think all of this is barreling down on donald trump michael cohen, is virtua coconspirator in the hush mone payment crimes has been in the grand jury twice

testified extensively about th crimes he committed with and for the benefit of, and at the direction of, donald trump and, you know, no nda or any other civil agreement or contract will have any impac on any of that >> glenn, based on the fac that it appears the former president donald trump i inciting violence by asking hi followers to quote, protest, and take your country back could we reasonably anticipate some type of secret location maybe a moving of the surrende of donald trump, should he b indicted by the manhattan da's office, so that perhaps ther isn't some type of violenc that occurs at the courthous next week should be indicted >> that is a great question, katie. because, in law enforcement it is always safety first regardless of what we ar contemplating doing. if it is returning indictments if it is doing an orchestrated or coordinated takedown of

multiple members of a criminal organization, if it is a court hearing, it is always safety first. the problem with that is, by this post that donald trum just put on his third rate social media platform, the damage has been done he has said, stand back stan by, come to manhattan for my arraignment. take back your country words to that effect the damage has been done regardless of where donald trump is now presented to be booked they could certainly take hi to a different police facility than the one where h ordinarily would have gone i don't suspect they are going to change the location of th arraignment. the court in which donald trum will be presented, the damag has been done. but i think your question is a great one. how can law enforcemen authorities now minimize the damage that donald trump has just used this same play fro the same playbook to orchestrate the possibility of

imminent lawless conduct >> glenn, also there's a littl bit of glenn, give me a second. i am going to have joining m now this conversation, civil rights attorney and former prosecutor charles coleman charles, if you are with us, h good morning i know we are bringing you an. we have some breaking news i know you are familiar with the post that was just done by former president donald trum on truth social. asking, indicating asking his followers to appear to protest, to protest and t take our nation back but most importantly, charles, former president donald trum indicating that he will be arrested on tuesday of nex week now, given according to this post he is blaming it on leaks that came from the manhattan da's office. but, charles, i will pick up the question is about oppose to glenn we know that the forme president of the united states donald trump has united states secret service protection. that was already creating little bit of an unusual security situation, as you and

i both know. criminal defendant comes in, either in handcuffs or not fingerprints, it has to go through the booking process. it was always gonna be ahead scratcher how that works wit having to say the former president of the united states how is this going to look? if you actually have the threa and the risk of violence because of what he has done, b posting on truth social this morning? >> well, katie, there has been a myriad number of different logistical complications tha this presents. and what you have just talke about is only one of them. i think that i have been talking about the notion of th secret service, and thei involvement in to what exten the president's creates anothe issue for new york city la enforcement during thi process. with what you are talking about, there is also that additiona concern around safety an security of everyone who i responsible for affecting th eventual arrest, and the ultimately the people who ar responsible for the prosecutio of the president even just handling the indictment with the anticipate number of people who can potentially shop in manhatta in response to this.

all of this is a logistica nightmare. i also think that quite frankly, given what we have seen with january six, if anything doe unfortunately go left when i comes to monday, we are lookin at additional potential charge with donald trump with respect to inciting violence and, again, i don't want to ge ahead of ourselves about and with the carpet for the hors but that's a distinc possibility. especially given what we hav already seen so message like this could onl further and broil donald trump into deeper legal entanglement in a way that i don't thin that he is considering the ramifications. >> yeah, caroline, appreciat the point there is n indictment even the down trump has posted he believes he is going to b arrested on tuesday of nex week, until analysts tha happens, this really could all be an exercise in th conversation we galaxies but - i want to follow up on those o the wrinkle that's bee happening in donald trump' potential criminal defense w know joe tacopina apparently was approached by and had

conversation with stormy daniels about possibly representing her we also haven't heard that stormy daniels has waived an potential conflict in terms of attorney client relationship do you think that there is enough there, charles, tha perhaps joe tacopina, who is brought to the trump legal tea at the last minute, perhaps to prepare for a trial, could b kicked off the team because he is basically conflicted out if he had an attorney clien relationship with stormy daniels? >> you know, katie, this has been a wild situation from the very beginning if you recall, stormy daniel original attorney michae avenatti, is currently i prison for another extortion issue that he is dealing, with so nothing about this woul surprise me. if trump sees that window, and if there's other members of hi legal team who do see that as possibility, they will absolutely throw tacopina unde the bus, and he will becom another one of donald trump' legal casualties when it comes to attorneys he has ru through. i don't necessarily know tha that is hard cast in stone i

terms of this being a hard rul that everything we talked abou with respect to stormy daniels previous consultations with him, to whatever extent they exist, would ultimately disqualif him. however, like i, said i do think that if the trum organization believes that thi is a possibility, that the will use it, even if to just get a delay tactic and hav things go on for longer than i is that they anticipated a this, point so, something that is a distinct possibility but don't necessarily see bein something that holds up alvi bragg on his, and whatever h needs to do. >> now, i would ask to, charles, based on what has been poste on truth social, and again, th caveat being we don't have a indictment yet, he hasn't been arrested based upon what we've seen, msnbc legal analyst glen kirschner, you know him, he is a friend of yours as well. plunder said a few minutes ago that he thinks bond conditions could potentially be changed that standard bond condition may be a released on your ow recognizance, because he is th former president of the united states, flanked by unite

states secret service, could b enough, based upon what he's done this morning, do you thin it's possible that we could se donald trump, perhaps, hav walked himself into a gag order? not normal in a lot of cases as you and i both know, however, we have seen it happen in othe high profile cases roger stone had one in his trial a few years ago. we do think maybe a gag orde could be in place to prevent donald trump from being able t send out messages like he just did. >> okay, ultimately, that is going to be up to th discretion of the judge. it's important that yo misunderstand that we di enough cash bail, particularly when it comes to nonviolen felonies of the sorts. the idea of him being all right, or as he, said released as ora recognizance, it's relativel high in terms of a gag order, i d think it is likely that we could see some specialized individualized or customized instructions given by whoeve the iranian judges in this matter, because i do think tha the implications of what could go wrong with someone who is a former president using his own social media platforms tweet

publicly those implications ar obvious it would not surpris me to see some version of a ga order come from the judge' case, or at least, a stron recommends or review in such a way that this sort of behavior is discouraged now, again, to buy extent we will see the judge limit tha fully? we have yet to find out. but it is possible that this will come with some level of instruction about what can and cannot be said by donald trump or his legal team, on social media. >> charles, i'm just going t say, to our viewers, if you ar just tuning in now, there ha been some breaking news. former president donald trum has posted on truth social his post, if we could bring it u police, on the screen, was don earlier this morning he is indicating that he wil be arrested on tuesday of next week the truth social post by forme president donald trump is on your screen now. trump has indicated that according to leaks from th manhattan district attorney' office, that he will b

arrested on tuesday of nex week the following sentences protest, take our nation back, as h speaks to his followers. there's also some fog, suggestions that the violent crime that he is suggesting is occurring is courtesy an funded by george soros, et cetera there's a lot of stuff in this post the crux of what we're looking at is him as in donald trump putting forth some defenses on how it's an old and full debunked fairytale, quot unquote, in terms of the payments made to former, excuse, me the former payment made t adult film star, stormy daniels, and that he now claims he is the far and away leading republican candidate and tha is the reason why he is goin to be arrested but our breaking news this morning is that donald trump has indicated he will be arrested on tuesday of nex week, and he is asking for his followers to protest and t take our nation back i think we have the opportunit now to bring in texa congresswoman, jasmine crockett she is from the state of texas

maybe we aren't, oh, we are, great. congresswoman jasmine crockett jasmine, it's always so good t have you here. obviously, i want to ask you what your initial thoughts are on that truth social posts tha donald trump just did this morning >> so, it's so ironi that it is truth social, and i does anything but tell the truth, right especially if it means tha donald trump is behind the message, and so, unfortunately i am just a freshman in th house but when i talk to m colleagues and they talk about january six, and they tell m about the fear they had or whe i listened to leader jeffrie talk about methodically, how you know, capitol police wer coming in and grabbing the number one, the number two, th number three he was wondering when they wer coming to get him. when i hear about what he did, when i talked to capitol polic that were working that day, can only think, can this

actually get worse honestly, i don't know that it can't get worse. that is the problem. donald trump only cares abou donald trump that is why your previous gues had to talk about the fact tha all of his lawyers have al gone down. they've lost their law licenses they've been indicted. some of them have been incarcerated he is nothing but toxic an even those that follow him, if they haven't learned by now we are done playing this donald trump came, and that we will g after you and when i say we, i mean those that were in power, just as this district attorney to go after those that break the law, he has foreve operated with this idea that h is above the law, and so i applaud the man, the manhattan da, if he actually is bringing these charges. because we know, number one, the courage it takes to go after this particular characte and number two, we also know there will be a heightened level of scrutiny on this kind of case. so, we know that if you decide

to actually indict a forme president, you probably ar coming with a pretty stron case >> congresswoman jasmine crockett, i want to thank yo for your time. i actually want to bring i right now, msnbc legal analyst danny cevallos danny, so good to have you thank you so much for joinin us for this breaking news. for those of you that are just tuning in now with the breakin news, former president donal trump has posted on trut social he expects to b arrested on tuesday of nex week by the manhattan district attorney's office. he then calls for protests his followers, he asked hi proud followers to protest t take your nation back danny, let's stay in the legal lane right now. obviously, that's a really important stuff. the biggest caveat is we haven't seen an indictment we haven't seen in the rest. but all signs indicate tha there has been an indictment that has been returned, but le me push back on that sign. we also know stormy daniels, but 134,000 dollar hush payment,

-- has been in contact with the manhattan da's office, but b all indications, she was i front of the grand jury last week like michael cohen did. , socially humping are break there any? should we be saying maybe we'r jumping the gun here, no matte what donald trump says about being arrested next week, if stormy daniels doesn't speak t the grand jury, we don't hav an indictment yet? >> there is the possibilit trump's announcement is a kind of political gambit. why else announced it if there is no indictment but assuming for the momen that trump has - information and he will be indicted, then, look this is something we knew migh be coming from the new yor county da's office i don't agree is the strongest case against trump frankly, i think this is a bit of a stumble the new york county da indicting trump there are othe investigations that pose a greater threat to trump, mos importantly, the federal one and possibly, the georgia one. but this is not the stronges

case against trump he migh actually welcome it, welcome i as a campaign plan >> so joining me now, joining me now is representative sean casten. he's a member of the house services committee, he was o the first democrats too, sorry this is what is happening in live news. we're going to go back to dann cevallos, msnbc legal analyst. danny? >> i'm still here >> thanks fo being with us, danny it's kind of crazy thi morning. >> it's breaking news. >> i appreciate it i know, right? welcome to live tv danny, i do want to ask you, you are indicating that th strength of this case from the manhattan da's office mayb questionable listen, i think most of us, if we are being honest, we ar waiting for a fulton county, fani willis, to bring he indictment first especiall because we saw the special grand jury, and we heard fro the special grand jurors i terms of the indictments, th targets, basically, the crimes

that had been committed down there by donald trump. any chance, if we do see a indictment from alvin bragg' office next week, that we coul see anything that is not specifically only dealing with the hush money, could we see something dealing with the ove inflation of his assets? i mean, brags office has bee running a parallel investigation with letitia james and new york a.g.' office for a while now based upon insurance fraud, ta fraud, and the over inflatio and maybe the de-inflation o deflation of asset values >> i could absolutely be. that by the way, there is possibility that that may be what is being indicted we really don't know for sure. and bragg, after probabl rethink news stories in th last few weeks about folks believing the strength of th stormy daniels case is not a strong, he may go with that. that may be the stronger case. the argument that trump ma have inflated his assets and i deeply - with the tax man cometh, is

pretty standard rookie crime as opposed to this whole, also buying business records, a misdemeanor. it's only bumped up to a felon if used to violate some othe crime the theory there would b the election law violation pumps it up to the felony. that is untested theory. it could get thrown out. here is a worst-case scenari for the da if they indict unde that if the novel legal theory bump it up to a felony gets tossed, then your left charging th former president with misdemeanor in new york county that is just not a good look maybe bragg is leaning towards repump of the value of the loans, deflate the value for taxes, like i said, it is pretty standard scam but one you can go through paper and figure out relativel quickly. so, you have a better chance o satisfying your burden o proof. >> and danny, we do know tha alvin bragg sat down with my colleague, the reverend al sharpton last weekend. they didn't talk about rea

specifics, but he did indicate the trial team responsible for the successful guilty verdic for the trump organization trial, that also involved alle vital berg that is the trial team that is leading thi investigation and any of the cases that are involving donal trump at the new york da's office again, will there be a requirement there was separate grand jury that actually had to sit to entertain those particular charges? those being the overinflatio of assets, the insurance fraud et cetera? or could this particular grand jury that's been hearing all this testimony concernin stormy daniels, quebec ran jur returned recommendations for crimes that were perhaps anticipated that don't hav anything to do with stormy daniels? >> in theory, that's possibl though, it would be strange to present two separate grand juries so, that is a possibility, but in all likelihood, let's tal just for a minute about th other prosecution yo mentioned. allen weisselberg. in respect, i'm not sure that' a victory. that was basically a crimina case against a corporation

i think the inference to b drawn there is that ther simply wasn't enough evidenc to charge trump, because the would have so, now you are going forwar with a case that was against allen weisselberg, or the ne york, for the new york state attorney general recovered wit 1 million dollars in bonds and convicted accompany, that isn' really, in my mind, a majo victory after the level of investigation. look, i think critical from th beginning of the new york a.g. and the manhattan county district attorney' investigation, because when yo take a step back, if the indict on the stormy daniels payoff, that was seven years ago? maybe eight years ago, when th conduct occurred i'm estimating here. there's going to be difficulty proving your case with facts, even if you have the paperwork. we all saw the paperwork that was way back when thi happened i'm not entirely sure there is a case there people talk a lot about michae cohen testifying for three hours, and two that i ask, i there anything about michael cohen's testimony that w wouldn't know at this point? he testified before congress he's got a podcast he has been

on this network several time telling the story. he is telling the story to everyone that would listen, so i think we probably know wha those three hours consisted of michael cohen, and i mean no disrespect, has the same problem as every cooperating witness defense attorney i going to get up there, point t him and say, this is someone who is a convicted liar. by the way, he talks about accountability, and, again i'm doing what a defense attorne would say, and i say, ladies and gentlemen, the jury as yourself, would michael cohe have been so concerned about trump's accountability if he himself had never been indicted? would he have had this moral compulsion to out trump and hi alleged crimes the answer to that, obviously, is no. michael cohen never gets indicted he is still trump's best pal so, i think michael cohen does have problems as a cooperating witness, problems he, i'm sure is aware of himself. so, the fact that michael cohe is testifying, has testified shouldn't be too much of a shocker. we already know everything h

knows, and that hasn't led t an indictment yet. so really interesting to see what is coming out here. >> dan, before i have to switc over to the next guest, i will say, though, you and i hav tried cases involving flips as a prosecutor i had flipped codefendants, an i will say to your crimina defense attorney perspective who better to know who was involved in the crime that tha flip codefendant who actuall participated michael cohen said he acted at the behest of and direction of former president donald trum when he made that payment. then evolves, my friend, thank you for joining us for thi breaking news. and finally joining me now, i' pleased to have representative sean casten, member of the house financial services committee. he was also one of the first democrats to call for former president trump's impeachment, representative, kind of a wild morning. i know it wasn't exactly wha you and i were planning on talking about this morning, bu i appreciate you being here. i did want to get your thought straight out of the gates as t this post on truth social by former president donald trump, indicating he's going to b

arrested next week, tuesday, b the manhattan da's office. >> look, i think the first thing about that post is i wis it was possible for th president to post that without throwing in antisemiti references to george soros, bu he's going to be who he is the hard thing for all of this that all of this needs to be sovereign about this is no happy day when the forme president of the united states is potentially going to be arrested, if this is true. we all want to live in the country and believe we live in a country where no one is abov the law. but the truth of the matter is we have never prosecuted a former president for crimes, even jefferson davis, right? protecting the united states because we have always ultimately concluded that th peaceful transfer of power i something that needs to be preserved. that is obviously not a view shared by the donald trump, or indeed, the majority of th republican caucus. i think we need to, there is n question that he has committed criminal activities. remember in the mueller report there was that area footnote

where the cry for help, an impeachment cannot substitut for criminal liability when i broke up this morning i southern, news 4's question wa is this new york for georgia? or the federal case? there's a lot that's out there i think the question in th immediate term will be, is the republican party capable o treating this as a rule of law issue that needs to be dealt with, purely on the facts, o is it going to be politicize in ways that may potentially destabilize our republic >> well, representative, i'm sorry to have to answer that question immediately or, at a minimum marjorie taylor greene has tweeted that this morning in response to that truth socia posts by donald trump, tha republicans that stand by an cheer for his persecution, and this is her language, do nothing to stop it will be exposed to the people and will be remembered, scorned, an punished by the base she the says we must bring in the bide doj officials who have bee courting with the manhattan da

to testify, subpoena all of it and here is the iron representative quote, we mus and that weaponization o government power for politics. i don't have to tell you representative casten, that wa a donald trump specialty whe he was in office, to weaponize the bill barr doj for hi purposes so, again, not good news t answer your question but wha is your reaction to that someone who is right next to kevin mccarthy, house gop, majority speaker, tweeting exactly what the republican or at least, her position shoul be that republicans should b taking, concerning a possibl arrest of former president donald trump >> i would ask us all to judge marjorie taylor greene by th content of her character i will take that from there. it's a valid points, and i proves my point. the united states is only been attack from within in ou history. the most recent time was january 6th the time befor that was the first shots of th civil war. and at the end of the civil war,

remember in lincoln's beautifu speech, he said it may see strange -- judge a guy from earning his bread from left in the sweat of another face, but let's not we judge for what we judge ourselves. for lincoln, for all his greatness, did not know how to say there was a morally righ and wrong side in the republic what marjorie taylor greene is doing with the acquiescence of kevin mccarthy and the republican leadership is tryin to threaten the republic wil fall apart if we simpl acknowledge the truth, and tha is a hard point. i think all of us in publi office, regardless of th letter after our name, to call that out but also, to model th behavior our country has alway had at its best. >> to your point representative, the fact there has only been two prior -- occasions where a country ha been attacked within what are the thoughts about th fact that former president

donald trump in this truth social post is telling his followers to, quote, protest take our nation back do you have a legitimate fea that former president of the united states could be incitin violence by asking his followers to quote, take our nation back? it's very similar language disturbingly so, to what he di prior to the january six insurrection >> no question that it is. i think his power is somewha diminished from somewhere he could call that out. it certainly hasn't been the problem with capital polic forces until agree that he did on january six it is a concern. inciting violence her, cryin fire in a crowded theater ca hurt people. so, yes, we have to be vigilant again, my concern, donald trum is ultimately a small, flawe human being. he is empowered not by virtu of his talents he is empowered by virtue of the acquiescence of th republican party

if any significant member of the republican party can cal out donald trump when he first bragged of rape and assault or making fun of the disabled o all the things we know he di on the campaign, we would no be here. if any of the members of the republican party had called hi out, at any point in his campaign, or he did this, what he did on january six wa inappropriate, if instead of voting overwhelmingly within the republican caucus to overturn the election result just hours after we were cleaning the broken glass of the capitol, we wouldn't b here this morning. he continues to be in powe because of whether it is acquiescence, agreement, o cowardice, the outcome is th same the republicans who have stood up against trump, from ada kings exert to liz cheney, hav been kicked out of the party the ones that were left either agree with him, which make them a part of the problem, or are afraid to stand up to him,

which, if nothing else, is the are unfit positions of leadership that is the scary moment that is what we have to fix. >> representative, i have less than a minute left with you. i did want to ask you, to your point let's just say that an indictment himself in the da's office manhattan da's office next week it is domino that begins t make all the other dominoe fall you said when you woke up this morning, you heard, it i wonde if it fulton county? is it letitia james? is it, you know, alvin bragg is it special counsel jack smith? do you think these indictments should they come, should they, come would that be enough to actually embolden some republicans who have kowtowe to him and have been cowerin in fear? do you think that would be enough to say, now he is indicted, i am ready to take a stand and say enough is enough with donald trump? >> i don't know. i hope so, but we'll see i think at the point where the think they can win without him they will dump him like a ho potato i don't know yet they thin they can win without him

>> well, representative cast o the, again, not the reason why i wanted to have you on th show this morning. i'm so grateful you are here again, and i take you the time for joining us for thi breaking news. thank you so much. >> thank you, katie. >> and more on our coverage of former president donald trump' post on truth social stating that he is going to be arreste on tuesday of next week that will be coming up, right after a quick break. pp. use it to set and track your goals, big and small... and see how changes you make today... could help put them within reach. from your first big move to retiring poolside and the other goals along the way wealth plan can help get you there. j.p. morgan wealth management.

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i'm jonathan kagan this is the saturday show. we are continuing our coverage of the breaking news former president donald trum posted on truth social that he will be arrested tuesday o next week and calling th manhattan district attorney' office quote, highly political he also called for people to protest to quote, take our nation back the manhattan da's office hasn't commented on a trump' post but nbc news was the firs to report that local state and federal law enforcement ar preparing for a possible indictment as early as nex week if there is an indictment, donald trump would be the firs former president in u.s. history to face criminal charges. and according to his attorney, trump intends to surrender t