to keep america's children safe by banning the handmaid's tale in 1984. >> representative raskin to take us off the air tonight with some rousing and important rhetoric. and on that note, i wish you a good night. i'm in for stephanie ruhle, maybe her son, thank you for staying up late. see you at the end of tomorrow. thank you for joining us, we have a lot to get to this evening. in manhattan the grand jury hearing the hush money probe, that grand jury didn't meet on that matter today. the new york times reports that prosecutors leading that clay's or seen entering the building where the grand jury meets, suggesting that some activity may have taken place, there's no indication that an indictment has been handed up today. we're expecting the grand jury to pick up the hearing again next week.

and while all eyes have been on manhattan district attorney, alvin bragg, as the nation's been watching literally his every move. special counsel, jack smith, appears to have reached a turning point. when it comes to his, investigation surrounding the former president. there are signs of the special counsel now four months into the job may get the testimony of two of the closest people to the former president. at the two people who knew presumably everything when it comes to trump. his attorney, evan corcoran, and his former number two in the white house. mike pence. today, recorder spotted attorneys for trump heading into the d. c. federal courthouse, where the grand jury investigating the mar-a-lago documents case and the january six riots, where they were meeting behind closed doors, one of the special counsel prosecutors investigating january six of the efforts to overturn the

2020 election was also spotted entering the building. you know who else was there? an attorney named emmett flood, who represented former vice president mike pets, he was spotted entering the building. we now know that attorneys for trump, pans, and the doj prosecutors met behind closed doors, in a field hearing before the d. c. chief judge of the special counsel ongoing battle to compel pence's testimony before the grand jury. if you are wondering, why trump's attorney were in the mix there it's because they've claim that executive privilege should prevent the former vice president from testifying. and they're making that case to the judge. as a reminder, jack smith subpoenaed pants for his testimony back in february, and abc news now report -- to pence's verbal testimony, to subpoena documents and communication for efforts for the 2020 election. the larry at the laps, and efforts to overturn lackey jeffrey clark, you as acting

attorney general all in trump's quest to support the election. they called the subpoena unconstitutional and unprecedented and it has invoked the constitution speech and debate clause. as a way to fight it, they're looking at little own -- prevent having to telegram jury what happened. and, yet pence had no problem telling abc news this, when it came to jamming book sales on mediatorial last year. >> i picked up the phone, and asked me where i was, on the electoral count that would take place that day, i told him despite what you issued last night from your campaign, mr., president i've been clear, i don't have the authority to reject votes, during the electoral count, or return those votes to the state. it went downhill from there.

he became very irate on the phone. he said if that was true, he made a mistake five years ago. >> pence probably remembers that he said all that to news cameras, and the american public which may explain why the washington post is now reporting that eight -- accepted the fact that the former vice president may have to testify against the man that he served in office. donald trump. as part of the special counsel 's investigation. it also sheds light as to why special counsel smith wants to hear from pence. justice department prosecutors -- if he ever acknowledge losing the election, and what specific efforts he took to block the certification of the election. prosecutors believe that the private conversations with trump could shed light on either or both. and that's all essential

information as far as this entire investigation goes. jack smith wins this fight and gets mike pence to sit before the grand jury and answer questions, it'll be a big development in the january six investigation. meanwhile, mr. smith is one step closer from hearing -- investigation, the attorney caught in the middle of that probe, at a devin corcoran was ordered to testify as early as tomorrow, in response to a doj subpoena this past, may mr. corcoran drafted the infamous june statement, saying that trump attorney i conducted a search of mar-a-lago. and there was no more classified documents that they found. this document, has often been called a statement, but it is more than, that it's an initial certification, the certification was provided to the justice department in lieu of official testimony, by trump's attorney. it includes curious sounding language like, this of authorized to certify on behalf of the office of donald day

trump, a diligent search was conducted and removed from the white house of florida i swear, or affirm that the above statements are true and correct to the best of my knowledge. well, we now know that that wasn't the case, at all and prosecutors want to know why. the fbi found more than 100 classified documents when they searched the premises two months later. prosecutors later asserted to finding the documents that called into serious question the representative made in the june 3rd certification. and cast doubt on the extent of cooperation in this matter. in other words, perhaps obstruction of justice. an appeals court ruled this week that evan corcoran must provide -- as well as documents and reporting mr. corcoran's expected to appear before the grand jury as early as tomorrow. so jack smith with a one-two punch today. well everyone's buzzing about

alvin bragg, the stormy daniels 's hush money, probe donald trump's legal headaches when it comes to the special counsel, they appear to be multiplying. joining me now are laura jarrett, nbc legal correspondent, and michael moore, former u.s. attorney for the middle district of georgia. thank you both for joining me. laura, we couldn't stop talking to you last time we needed more today. i want to hear your assessment of how involving mike pence will be to testify here. it sounds like he's privately or's attorneys are making paste of the concept, you know it's likely we'll get pulled into? this >> the hardest thing about this, this is he's gone public with a number of different interactions, and reflections that he's had. about really material events that happened both before and after the election. and yet the argument that his lawyers want to be making

he should be amortized at least as to his role as private incident of the senate, and the ministerial asset of kept -- counting the votes. but now that he has had a wall street journal article, and a book tour about, this it's gonna be hard to see where is he's gonna draw the line, and i think that's gonna be the hard argument that i imagine that that front and center of judge roseburg, and the d. c. federal court today. >> michael, i would assume that if you're a former vice president of the united states you have handlers. you have lawyers. and one would imagine that when you embarked on this book tour, there is gonna be something legal considerations about what he was talked about publicly on nbc, news on the page of the wall street journal, and what position it put him in, in terms of further investigations. do you think that wasn't a consideration that was made? >> well, i'm glad to be with you both. i really think that he believed at the time that he was selling this book that he was just on a media blitz. and he was planning to run for president. i give no credence to his argument at all. i'll just tell you, there's a

lot of cow pastures down here. full of the same types of arguments. and that's where it belongs. it's not gonna go anywhere for him in this case. he did talk about it publicly. he's repeatedly talked about it. publicly when he's trying to sell a book -- unprecedented and unconstitutional. he's refusing to honor. and it's unpatriotic. there is no viable claim at this point to somehow hide behind these constitutional arguments that he's making. it's just not gonna go anywhere, and you certainly they're not gonna get anywhere with the judge. but let's remember what the privileges about it's about a deliberate process, it's about the ability to talk through a problem without worrying about testifying about the inner markings of the problem or reaching a solution to some

kind of national issue. it's not here -- to overthrow the election to try to shield the discussions from disclosures. and the constitution that he's making about the, versus the legislator and congressi.at noty the dame for it either. >> michael, is there a world in which a narrowly subscribe set of conversations that pans has in the context of him being a president of the senate. that are off limits. everything else, including conversations that happened in the oval office there's nothing to do with his ministirial role, those aren't off limits, in other words there's some version of this resolution where he gets to hat the speaking of a boston era set of conversations but the important conference the most relevant conversation is very much on the table as far as conversations from the ground jury.

>> there might be a way to split the maybe in the circumstance there might be some conversations that are protected and off limits a mckenna say they're necessarily follow under the constitutional. but the judge may say, look, i'm not gonna make you go into. this mister prosecutor but i'm not gonna let you talk about that. but tell me about what happened, tell me about what you saw, tell me about what you observed. tell me about what was said to. you tell me about those types of things. and at the time that are more i guess contemporary is type of observation, as opposed to something that he talked about with a colleague that's in the senate at the time that he may have been standing in the chamber. something there may be a way to do that, and i could see how that could happen,, but again the special counsel's looking for this information about what does trump know. what were you told to do, what did you see at the time. did you get a no, did somebody

send you. something this will really get at the heart of what's going on and at the other end of washington away from the capital. >> i can't get past the fact that we're now talking about the two key witnesses in these two. events trump on january six, seven corcoran, the guy involved in the mar-a-lago documents retention case. to me, those are the kind of witnesses that you'd and an investigation. and you were a creature of the doj, which is a compliment. you understand perhaps how these things work in a way that a lot of other people don't. do, should we infer anything from the fact that these very high wattage, important key figures are potentially testifying in the coming days in jack smith's dueling special counsel probes? >> it's the beginning of the investigation, you wouldn't try to serve a subpoena the former vice president of the united states, an opening -- that wouldn't be an opening. move i think it's fair to say,

this is the type of thing that you feel jack smith feels as though he's amassed enough evidence. and gotten to the endgame. where he really now need something to close. it and wrap up whatever is. left i hope it's. mentioned that the courts gonna be far more sympathetic to a jack smith, than perhaps to the january six committee. in typical cases, i think michael agree with me on, this courts are way more likely to allow someone to testify in front of a grand jury. in a criminal case than they are in terms of legislative open hearing and that type of thing. when congressmen are trying to get different trump executives, executive branch people to testify in the open hearing, it's very different than going behind closed doors in front of a grand jury, and of course -- we'll see what he does. but i think maybe for more sympathetic to jack smith, the intrigue here that he perhaps would've been for congress. >> let me ask you another timeline question, because you

seem to agree that mike pence wouldn't be that starting guy -- do you think these investigations, jack smith's probe into january six of mar-a-lago are happening in parallel tracks, because i've always thought about the mar-a-lago thing must be further along than the january 6th case. which seems massive, and unwieldy, a it'll take forever, how do you see that moving down the track. >> the facts of the mar-a-lago documents probe are easier, certainly. it's except for the fact that some of the material witnesses have been caught up in all of this litigation, like evan corcoran. but we've talked about this on, i wondered about this if you see how -- and that's the different thing with the special counsel, but on that when they really were to the tune of two separate lines they, different volumes, if you remember and so they released them at the same time. it may be in this case that he does one versus the other we just don't know but i can see a scenario where he does everything all at once instead of staggering them.

>> he would've assigned them at the same. times maybe end them at the same. time michael, rightly refers to the tangle of the thicket of lawyers who are invol these things. i've been asking our wonderful very patient producer, to make a graphic for me, there we have a, let's pull it up. these are the lawyers we need to color code. i don't know if you could see this michael because it seems like -- the homeland, there are so many lawyers who are involved in different cases, as either counsel or witnesses. christina bobb is involved in the jan sixth staff but she's also a potential witness, and classified documents, evan corchoran's eyewitness in the classified documents, case but his counsel to trump, and the january sixth case. i mean it is, seems to be, not a lawyer. it seems like a nightmarish arrangement when you talk about counsel and multiple probes who were cross pollinating things as council or witnesses. >> yeah, the only thing

surprising to me that i could see the diagram is of their five -- get involved in these. cases with the former president. i think trump has done the masterfully at times. he has a way of putting a buffer between him in the law when he oftentimes has lawyers you can see that with michael cohen sort of how we handled him and what went on when he asked him to do. and we now have a story wound up there. and even hearing mr. corchoran, he is writing a letter as opposed to trump giving the letter, trump side of the certification. cars that is fact his property, his residency, but the lawyer did. it he bills them these degrees of separation. and when you try to delay things, -- and inquiries and everything else. he just makes the not of it. bigger and it took more strands and that and somebody needs to unravel and you do see that and the duran helps with that.

i don't think at the end of the day that it shields him. or that it shields mr. corcoran from the inquiry that he's now obviously enough to give information. it's not meant because you have lawyers that are involved in different cases. that doesn't prevent them from talking about things that would typically be covered in the attorney-client matters. if in fact the court finds it might fall under something like crime fraud exception or something else. and all that testimony to come in. it's not that it can't be a knot that can't be untangled, but it's something that's caused, it will cause its fair share of delay but i think you see the prosecutor move i don't think will be any impediment at all for jack smith. i'm happy to see him come in, and put the pedal down and get things moving along. this is something, an investigation that is taken far too long, it's good to see them move. we talk about these cases that somehow are trying to send a rocket into the moon.

these are just criminal cases, criminal investigation, that somebody have documents that were not allowed to have. it's a pretty civil inquiry, -- but the facts, the underlying allegation is fairly -- did somebody paid a payment that was illegal in new york, it's pretty simple. it was a call made to the secretary of state in georgia, in an effort to pressure someone to change an election count, it's a pretty simple thing. it's good to see things moving forward and i think at least in my opinion, overdue. >> michael moore should be heading up the special counsel, when he makes it sound so simple. michael more, thank you both for your time, and i sincerely appreciate it. we have so much to get to tonight including the logical outcome of ron desantis's backward looking educational policy, it appears to protect protecting children from classical art. plus house republicans aren't just calling -- they appear to be weaponizing

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>> as we await the likely first time indictment of a former u.s. president, the first indictment in american history, we're already seeing another. first republicans in congress led by house judiciary chairman, jim jordan, he's using his power as congress people to act as quasi-defense attorney for a former president in a potential

criminal case. and not just in the court of public opinion, which needless to say, is also happening. in addition to the normal fox news head, on monday, congressman jordan took it upon himself, and reportedly at the request of one of president trump's lawyers, to send this letter demanding that the testimony of manhattan district attorney, alvin bragg, the prosecutor of course investigating trump's alleged hush money payment, and one congressman jordan was asking for here, for a state prosecutor to testify before congress, to lay out all of his evidence and internal communications about an ongoing criminal investigation, in front of a bunch of allies of the very person that investigators might be trying to prosecute. wow that's a five-alarm fire in terms of the separation of power. it's what congressman jordan himself might call the weaponization of the federal government. now mr. bragg politely declined chairman jordan's request this morning, saying in a letter

that bragg's office will, quote, always treat -- due respect. and requesting a meet and confirmed understand whether the committee has any legislative purpose. it sort of seems clear what the committee's purpose is. now unfortunately, jim jordan isn't just some random letter writer, he's a congressman in the chair of the house judiciary committee he has subpoena power, and he's likely to at least try and use that. exactly how the district attorney bragg responds to the house republicans and how democrats respond, all of that really matters because this is likely just the first indictment against president trump. the odds are pretty good that the leading republican for -- 2020, for that he'll be actively fighting multiple criminal indictments wall on the campaign trail, and that candidate seems to think so. to trump called for all of the prosecutors, and all of the investigations into him, he called for them to be removed from office. and alvin bragg specifically trump -- as a source backed animal. and referred to his office as the

gestapo. and trump used that charge language while criticizing calls for his followers to respond peacefully to this indictment. trump's trying to reframe the narrative, from being an investigation from his alleged crimes and he's trying to make an investigation into the investigator. and republicans in congress are using the power of the federal government to help. joining us now is democratic congressman jamie raskin, ranking member of the house oversight committee. congressman raskin, thank you so much for being here, you are a scholar of the law, we've heard the phrase, investigate the investigators many times in the trump era, this feels different, is this even legal for jim jordan to ask alvin bragg to come before congress in the middle of an open investigation. >> let's start with us, we actually have jurisdictional authority over the department

of justice, of and house judiciary committee but it's very well-established that even there are with the doj, where there is real jurisdictional oversight responsibility that we cannot intervene in an ongoing case. then you take it from the federal level to the state and local level, or we have no jurisdictional power over the investigator of impacciatore's and this is unheard of an outrageous it's clearly an attempt to elevate donald trump completely above the law, completely above the constitution and that's what's so scary about, this the gop is turned into a missy anette cult of personality. around one. guy who's proven himself to be a one-man crime way, and they've wrapped themselves in their careers, their destinies around donald trump, it is staggering to me that trump lawyer joe

tacopina, suggested that the house judiciary committee do this -- and they've turned follow suit into -- i think you rightfully suggest could be unconstitutional, and then there's the reality of if they actually did this, you told the washington post and again that it could completely backfire even if they managed to get alvin bragg up to the hell can you talk about the ways in which democrats use a potential danger zone for republicans if they do in fact go through with all this? >> well, alex, the emperor has no clothes at any level, during the impeachment trial the radical all the republicans was if there is a real problem you don't need to impeach and convict them just prosecute it when he leaves office. that's fine. now all the prosecutors are saying that there's these criminal -- how dare you

prosecute a former president, someone that's put himself forward to run for president again. they will devise any argument to try to guarantee the total immunity and impunity of one donald trump., they're taking us into unknown territory in society today. >> i do wonder, when you talk about incognito in new territory it's not just what trump is asking congress to do in this judicial kind of fashion. it's also the threat to he's at at prosecutors and in particular the manhattan district attorney calling him a thorough back to animal. and then today the former president shared a post on troop social there's a link to an, article that shows a picture of trump holding a bat next to alvin bragg's face. i mean does that rise to the level of the threat of violence against a prosecutor? >> well, some of the people who are in the d.c. jail right now. is january six convicts. aura

suspects are people who wielded baseball bats and batons and flagpoles. and metal poles. another weapons like that. donald trump is obviously. ■ signal to his most avid followers out there. i trust that the good district attorney has -- it's a very dangerous moment when you have people at his level giving license to violence, and violent attacks. including on law enforcement. this is something we'll be dealing with tomorrow. when marjorie taylor grain is gonna be reading a delegation from the house oversight committee. to go to the d.c. jail to visit the january six defendants. who she described as political

prisoners. like alexander showed -- nelson mandela in south africa. or navalny today these are not political prisoners, there are 20 of the mayor, 17 of them have been charged with assaulting federal officers including with baseball talents, baton, confederate polls and spraying them with knox's -- chemicals in. those are the people they're gonna visit. and by the way, they're being treated just fine in d.c., jail there to facilities there, the central detention facility and the central treatment facility. they're in by far the better facility, with open area that they're guaranteed for five hours a day outside of their self. they need to go outside weather permitting -- active to recreation. and they have computer tablets available to them for more than 12 hours a day. and an institution that's been fully accredited by american correctional association. they've got it

pretty good. as prisoners and detainees and suspects go. some of them have still not pled guilty at. or have been considered anything. they're entitled to the presumption of innocence. but a lot of people that they're visiting tomorrow i think eight or nine of them have already pled guilty. to serious charges. like assaulting federal officers. and all of them are being charged with very serious offenses. like seditious conspiracy, conspiracy to assault federal officers, staying in excluded facilities with a dangerous weapon. disobeying the officers, wielding weapons against officers, and so. on my

republican colleagues don't talk about any single, case they won't name any of these people, because they don't want the media looking into what they actually did. but i highly recommend to you -- recommend you are a part that was done by justice security which goes through the cases of the people who are actually there. and the media should keep it in. mind when they're touring the facility of the so-called political prisoners. by the way, while they're calling for the release of political prisoners. i love it of marjorie taylor greene, chairman omar, and laura boebert would call for the release of electing alexei navalny, a real political pressure. held by a war criminal, vladimir putin and russia right now. for his stand against the corruption of the russian government, will they call for the release of a real political pressure, i challenge them to do that while they're calling for the release of many of these people who have been convicted of violently assaulting our officers.

>> i think we know whether they're going to defy putin and call for navalny's release. but i sincerely appreciate, a the indication of alexei navalny's name, and the work he's done trying to bring justice and transparency to russia. and, also the invitation to do the right thing democratic congressman, jamie raskin, always great to see. you thank you so much for your time today. >> thank you. >> when we come, back explosive new reporting about how senator, kristen sinema really actually feels about the democratic party she left behind. and what democrats are prepared to do about her. >> plus how did masterpieces of renaissance art lead to the firing of a school principal? the answer is, isn't it always, florida. we'll explain, coming up next. trelegy for copd. ♪birds flyin' high, you know how i feel.♪ ♪breeze driftin' on by...♪ ♪...you know how i feel.♪ you don't have to take... [coughing] ...copd sitting down. ♪it's a new dawn,...♪ ♪...it's a new day,♪ it's time to make a stand. ♪and i'm feelin' good.♪ start a new day with trelegy. no once-daily copd... ...medicine has the power to treat copd... ...in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one inhaler,... ...trelegy makes breathing easier for a full 24 hours,

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>> and the name of parental rights, parents send your kids out of the room, or avert their eyes. we're about to show you something that all up -- right in your. family i'll give you a moment. okay, are you ready? this is the 17 foot tall statue of david. made by one of the greatest artist of the renaissance. michelangelo. in the early 15 hundreds. arguably, one of the most famous sculptures in the world, and, yes for the record dave it is totally nude. more than 1 million people joined the statue of david every, year it's an iconic piece and one of those visited museums and florence, and it away. and gave its nudity, comes with

a bit of history, soon after michelangelo completed that masterpiece, he also made -- christ the redeemer statue literally, the creation of adams fresh go, for the sistine chapel. well those works of art are also featuring nude objects. when the catholic church caught wind of the nudity, they banned it, watching the fig leaf campaign of art censorship. some members of the vatican called for the figure of adam, -- sistine chapel, they called for it to be censored. nude figures, michelangelo's other fresco, they're the last judgment. those emer statue got a permanent bronze -- and renowned statue of david got a physically. that was the 16th century. sometime around the 20th century, david specifically if was finally removed. according to some historians it happened in 1912. now, today in the 21st century a school board in florida, appears to be channeling that 16th century big leaf campaign.

a charter school in the state capital, called tallahassee classroom, a school began teaching michelangelo's masterpieces to its sixth graders. meaning, a school mandate to teach kids in that great about the renaissance. but one parent complained about the lesson, which included michelangelo's david. and the creation of adam. along with not a chiles versus bertha venus, that parent complain that the lesson was pornographic. two other parents complain that they weren't notified in advance of the lesson included new today. that might upset the orchids. seemingly inspired by governor ron desantis parental rights, slash don't say gay legislation, that tallahassee door-to-door passed a rule last month requiring two weeks advance notice for parents of any curriculum that is potentially -- the chairman of the school's board now wants tallahassee -- cutting edge of desantis's

education agenda. he said that parental rights are supreme. and that means protecting the interest of all parents, whether it's one, ten, 20, or 50. and this case, the interest for the parents who spoke up accounts michelangelo scandalous masterpieces. and that is enough to force the schools principles out of her job. last week, the school's board voted that the principle would be filed -- didn't resign over this history lesson. in a statement released this afternoon and -- the principal said the chairman of the school's board was more concerned about litigation and appeasing a small minority of parents rather than trusting my expertise as an educator for more than 25 years. the thing is tallahassee classical might already be on the cutting edge of governor desantis's education policy, because just a couple of weeks ago the florida legislator introduced a series of education bells to expand the state parental rights, don't say gay law, which bans instruction in public schools, on sexual orientation, gender identity, and age-inappropriate content like immunity.

those regulations that are currently in effect through third grade and they're now seeking to expand those regulations for older students as well. the governor's board of education is now considering its own expansion of the law through 12th grade. -- his role could be suspended. or have their teacher licenses revoked. the state board of education alive out on the proposal next month. so get your field believes ready. we have four more ahead. tonight one of the colleagues called the biggest egomaniac in the senate. house democratic party handle the problem of kristen sinema. that's next. hey, heading on a family trip? nah, sorry son prices are crazy, we're gonna have to skip it this year. (son deflating fully to the ground.) awh, well use priceline they have package deals no one else has. five pools?

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your monthly support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution. we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled. we are here for everyone. it is more important than ever to take a stand. so please join us today.

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been saying behind closed doors about those democratic lunches, according to a new report from politico. quote, those lunches were ridiculous, sinema told a small group of republican lobbyists interception this year, explaining why she stopped attending her caucus's weekly luncheons. she boasted she had better uses of her time than those, quote, dumb lunches. better uses overtime like, i don't, know selling used designer's shoes to strangers? and according to politico, it was more than long lunches that senator sinema complained about to the lobbyists. during private meetings reportedly boasted she had helped block tax increases for the wealthy, derided chuck schumer, and raise the middle finger when talking about white house chief of staff ron klain. it is that type of bold self satisfaction that little moderate democrat to tell politico, she is the biggest eagle maniac in the senate. all of this is part of what has become kyrsten sinema's new brand, the progressive turned moderate turned independent

senator has taken on a new role as defender of america's wealthy financial elite, what you might call the private equity class. as politico notes, it's hard to overstate sinema's closeness with private equity in particular. she spent part of her 2020 summary says interning at a sonoma winery owned by a executive in the industry. one senior official said they continue the way to win on a crucial nominee to have private equity executive weigh in with her. that's her taste of a high, she has become of an episcopal priest who surrounded by money and wants. account joining asked is co host of the podcast unclear and present danger. jamele, i know that you read this whole story, much like i did, and my eyes i had put them back in my head a couple of times. one of the things i found most disturbing and perhaps with george santos in my rearview

mirror mirror is the way it seems increasingly like higher office is being seen by certain people as a springboard to personal wealth. like a kind of legal grift they can pull to rake in cash at some point. i mean, do you see that happening, or is this more kyrsten sinema's particular strange psychology around money? >> i think that it's always been the case that have seen public office generally as a path to self enrichment but it's gonna sound a little crazy, but in the past, those people were often a little less obvious about it, and still maybe had some interest in something they wanted to pursue whether it was personal political power or simply winning for their party whether it was accomplishing some sort of project. these things were in dialogue with the desire for self enrichment, and what is so

striking about senator sinema is the in the the utter absence of shame about her desire to ingratiate herself with private equity executives at the heights of the american financial system and her apparent this interest in actually doing anything beyond insisting that class of americans that she is more than willing to obstruct large parts of the democrat party agenda, the agenda she ran in 2018, the opener to accomplish vehicles for -- assorted affluent influence. -- evidence of independents and very. >> now jamelle, the sense in

which she thinks other people should be like her. in the story she says she's kind of amazed that other senators haven't taken the narrow narrow majority that the democrats hold in the senate to offer themselves up is the most important votes in the senate and who similarly basically hold hostage the party for demands that her untethered to any particular policy agenda but are completely self serving. do you think there is a risk that people look at sinemas example of impunity and selfishness and say i want to be like that too, i like the power that comes along with being the irascible swing vote, if that's what you want to call her. >> you know, i don't think so. southern democratic congress she calls an egomaniac. >> in that role, and also understand that they are part

of a collective effort and so if they want to further collective effort barring some extraordinary desire that they have, they might suppress some of the things they want to do we. this is what you're supposed to learn when your eight, ten, 14 years old, playing soccer or football or whatever. and the senator from arizona doesn't seem to have picked up the lesson. >> i just wonder what democrats, what you think the democratic play should be. in some ways, not in some ways, they need her vote, right, to pass anything. and yet she is out there stomping grapes with private equity investigators and only listening to them when cases need to be made about must pass legislation. so what do democrats do in the meantime? >> i think it's clear that the

strategy so far, just stay on her good side, humor her, that sort of thing. but you'll notice that she's up for reelection next year. there's no real indication, at this point, that anyone in the senate democratic leadership intends to campaign for her independent bid. she is clearly hoping that the democratic party pulls off in, for fear of splitting, possibly electing kari lake, for example. but right now in three-way polling, involving hypothetical democratic candidate, hypothetical republican candidate in cinema, not only is she at the bottom, but the democratic candidate is at the top. and so whatever her strategy or hope seems to be for negotiating the politics of this, may not be panning out the way she hopes. now it's possible that it will next year, a long time before

the vote is held on november, 20 24th. but i think she's playing very risky game, politically, electorally, and it's not one that i necessarily can play out in her favor. >> curious political steady, strategy being the candidate of the private equity class. jamelle bouie, my friend. thanks for being here. >> the least popular people in the country. >> exactly. thank, you my friend. we'll be right back. >> tech: when you have auto glass damage, trust safelite. my customer really relies on his car's advanced safety system. [alarm]

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