right now on "andrea mitchell reports," history in the making donald trump now the first former u.s. president to be indicted after a manhattan grand jury voted in connection with the hush money payments to stormy daniels this hour, what we know about the sealed indictment, the

former president's reaction and what it means for his campaign ♪ good day i'm andrea mitchell in washington with what we are learning about the historic indictment of a former president and frontrunner for the 2024 presidential nomination. the indictment is currently under seal a source with direct knowledge of the court proceedings says prosecutors are not expected to ask a judge to unseal it today two sources familiar with the matter say the indictment has approximately 30 counts of charges related to document fraud. one of trump's lawyers told savannah guthrie that the former president is expecting to travel to new york tuesday to surrender to authorities and be arraigned. >> do you expect the president to voluntarily surrender will he come for his arraignment?

>> we are working out those logistics right now. absolutely he is not going to stay in mar-a-lago we will face it. we will be successful, i'm sure. >> he is currently expected to appear before a judge sometime tuesday afternoon, according to a tentative plan, sometime after 2:15 trump reportedly surprised by the timing of the indictment, quickly regrouped and went on an offensive, hosting a running diatribe against alvin bragg and the democratic party the white house is avoiding any comment. [ inaudible >> i have no comment >> i'm not going to comment on an ongoing criminal case as it relates to the former president. >> top republicans across the country are coming to mr. trump's defense with house speaker kevin mccarthy releasing a statement saying that d.a. bragg will be held to account for a, quote, unprecedented

abuse of power florida governor ron desantis, who spent the week as trump's political punching bag, slamming bragg and posting that his state would not assist in extradition. although, that's something that trump has told mepeople he woul not do the nypd is bracing for all scenarios. officers have been ordered to report for in-uniform duty starting today joi garrett, give us the latest from new york city, including new details about when prosecutors wanted trump to surrender and reaction from the former president online >> reporter: andrea, obviously, this broke yesterday afternoon it broke in large part because the prosecutors had to contact mr. trump and his attorneys to arrange for the surrender.

it was then that there was back and forth about how quickly mr. trump could get to new york city the trump attorneys indicated that the secret service was telling them they might need more time to arrange for such a travel -- such a complex travel arrangement, getting to the courthouse here in lower manhattan. the secret service pushed back where we have landed now is an expected arraignment tuesday mr. trump is pulling from his familiar political playbook here as he runs a two-pronged defense strategy his lawyers going on television and behind the arguing h made a fully legal nuisance payment here to make a non-political problem go away and that should not be a crime then there's what mr. trump has been saying on his social pea ya channels, blast iing away at ali bragg for running what he called a political persecution and now at the judge who would hear the case those of us who covered mr.

trump when he was president or candidate trump, heard him talk about judges that were overseeing matters where he was a litigant it's no surprise to see him return to that tactic here, suggesting the judge sayis a political opponent of his. we expect to see mr. trump surrendering in new york what happens between now and then is an open question he has nothing on his calendar this weekend or monday how he might choose to make the most of this political moment i think is a valuable unanswered question that i and a lot of my colleagues are pursuing. >> andrew, give us your analysis of the steps that alvin bragg has taken to this point. what could be inside this 30-count indictment now that we have the approximate number? do you think the judge could issue a gag order or some sort

of order about social media, threats and angry statements that have been coming the last 18 hours now >> let me take that last point first. i think it's so important -- i keep on thinking about the roger stone case which was brought by special counsel mueller where roger stone hosted a photo of the district judge with crosshairs in the photo. she did a number of things in response held a hearing found him not to be credible restricted what he could say donald trump, i think, has walked back or tried to walk back some of what he has been doing. he is not going to enjoy the same first amendment rights of speaking out if he ends up saying things that are inciting violence the judge can severely restrict what he is saying as a defendant out on bail, because that judge

now has authority over him that's going to obviously annoy donald trump to no end he is not used to somebody telling him what to do where the penalty for that could be additional charges or going to jail the judge will have that ability once donald trump is arraigned i'm not that concerned about him showing up if for some reason he insists on being extradited, he is facing a rape charge in a civil suit at the end of april in new york he really needs to show up for that or else he will default on that case. there's a backstop on when he does need to be in new york to face these charges that could be in the back of his mind about why it is their reason to be extradited. i think what's going on with alvin bragg right now is really keeping his head down, getting to the arraignment, figuring out what his position is going to be on bail and the appropriate

restrictions to make sure that there's no violence. i'm confident the nypd, secret service, fbi are focused on security and making sure that people on the grand jury, court officers, prosecutors are completely safe as well as all of downtown manhattan. this is an area where there's -- there's a ton of law enforcement here with a lot of experience to make sure that nothing can happen >> one of the questions -- did we learn anything about the number of charges? does that tell you anything about what kind of case this might be >> it doesn't because i know a lot of people thought that there's been reports of maybe 30 or so charges and that maybe this could be beyond the so-called hush money payments. it is possible for these payments to be charged a-- you

could have hush money payments and false filings in multiple locations. each of those could be a felony and be charged as a misdemeanor. there could be a conspiracy count going back to the events with karen mcdougal. i think the number doesn't really change the severity or the lack of severity of the charges. it's just a question of whether the core of the offense is something that has tripwires that resulted in numerous laws being violated i still think we should expect sort of the hush money payments being the core of this indictment >> danny, i want to play the initial defense we heard from one of the attorneys for donald trump this morning in his discussion on "today" with savannah >> we do know it centers around

illegal confidentiality agreement signed years ago with stormy daniels and between her attorneys and michael cohen. the only other one is the john edwards case, it was prosecuted because there was a donor involved as opposed to personal funds. a state prosecutor is prosecuting this case. this was a personal resolution for a personal matter that would have been made irrespective of the campaign >> what do you think of that defense? >> he has some points. there's enough for the indictment to get to probable cause. this is a defensible case. people need to be prepared for that he has been on the air making his points a lot of them that he got from mark pomerantz's book. this is a defensible case because there may be an issue as to whether or not new york can use a federal election law

violation as a predicate they won't be prosecuting it so much they kind of will. because they're going to be using it to bump up what would ordinarily be a misdemeanor to a felony falsification of records is a default misdemeanor. it's document heavy. we have seen the checks, the agreements between david dennison and patty peterson or whatever the phony names were. that's probably easier to make the misdemeanor. to bump it up to a felony, they need it to be in furtherance or conceal some additional crime. if it's a federal election law violation, then it's going to be an interesting legal issue whether or not new york can even use that, whether or not they have to prove it or whether or not they can prove it because it is federal law expect the defense to move to even throw that out. if they do, if all those felony

counts get thrown out and it's reduced to a misdemeanor, that becomes a political win for the ex-president now he is defending a misdemeanor case you better believe he will plant a flag and say, this is a political prosecution because these are small misdemeanors, if that happens not necessarily going to happen. but that and some other points make this a defensible case. one other thing, the extradition. arguably, the most controversial thing in the last 24 hours out of a presidential candidate or a hopeful isn't trump. it's ron desantis saying he would not cooperate -- florida would not cooperate with extradition. he has to know, this is not an option under the constitution when it comes to interstate extradition. it must happen it's in the constitution he is not china. it's not canada. it's not another country florida must extradite to new york it's probably a moot issue, because trump is going to show up no matter what. >> moot in the first place

desantis trying to say something that was being supportive of the popular frontrunner, donald trump. michael, i want to read from your recent story about how trump has been railing against the system in recent days. you write, his accusations widely repeated by other republicans reflect his own pattern of conduct his history of threatening or seeking to employ the expansive powers of the presidency to go after his enemies, real and perceived. he is accusing bragg of, which is not the case with bragg, but expand on that >> we thought it was quite rich that in the lead-up to the indictment that trump was going on and on about how he had been such a target of criminal law enforcement and that they were going after him for political purposes and to basically -- to try to knock off a rieval in the

political sphere it was part of a longstanding effort by law enforcement to go after him. he accused of bidens of being behind it and democrats and such the thing that we found remarkable about that was that trump more so than any other president that we could find, certainly dating back to nixon and probably including nixon, tried to weaponize the powers of the federal government against his enemies. tried to do this in a range of ways some of them were trying to order or tell or pressure the justice department to go after his rivals some of them were discussions about trying to use the irs to go after folks like jim comey and andy mccabe. others were trying to take the security clearances away from senior intelligence officials. trying to use the federal government's arm of his own operation.

>> one quick question to andrew. a potential gag order, does donald trump as a declared candidate have any special powers, legal authority, constitutional authority because the first amendment protects political candidates, as we have seen in the campaign advertisements >> the answer is, legally, no. there are no special rights. but this will be a first so the judge who gets assigned will have a lot of discretion. assuming that donald trump is not using his bully pulpit to incite violence and is keeping it to political discussions, obviously, a lot of us could say that's a huge if, that he will be free to participate in the political process. if he doesn't, then he can be

subject to various sanctions and restrictions >> thanks so much. you can hear more from andrew as he teams up with former prosecutor mary mccord on the newest podcast series, prosecuting donald trump scan the qr code on your screen to listen and follow former president trump has been rallying the troops throughout the day, researching out to republican allies on capitol hill to consult about the next steps in his public defense. joining me now, colorado congressman adam schiff, former house intelligence committee chairman and former manager of the first donald trump impeachment proceedings and a member of the january 6 investigating committee. what is your reaction to speaker mccarthy's rhetoric saying the house majority will hold district attorney bragg to account, claiming there was an abuse of power by the d.a. >> it's like we saw during the ukraine investigation in which

mccarthy, jim jordan and other republicans saw their role as acting as a kind of quasi-eququ quasi-criminal defense counsel for donald trump it's different now because he is the speaker of the house jim jordan has the subpoena power. they will try to use it try to interfere with justice in manhattan. they will be unsuccessful. they don't have any jurisdiction to try to compel information from the manhattan d.a nonetheless, they will use it to try to play into donald trump's narrative of aggrievement. sadly, this is what they do. they view their role not as defending our institutions, not call on the president to refrain from incendiary rhetoric which could cause harm to grand jurors or the manhattan d.a., they are not doing those things that would normally be a responsible thing for a governing party. instead, they are continuing to

throw their lot in with his. >> as a member of the january 6 committee, are you, as some of donald trump's critics are, are you disappointed the first indictment is not january 6 or mar-a-lago documents but something that happened initially at least not the payments but initially before he was president involving an alleged affair, which some people have -- which the voters wrote off before he was elected? >> i have been very critical, as you know, was justice department and the pace of their investigation of the whole multiple lines of effort donald trump to overturn the election, culminating in the violence of january 6. had they, i think, pr ursued th with more urgency, they would have gone first. presuming that they find

sufficient evidence to charge the president, those would have been the most serious charges. those should, in a logical scheme of things, be the first you bring. here we have multiple jurisdictions in manhattan, in georgia, with the justice department, they are not coordinated in the sense of who goes first so we have this case in manhattan beginning the process. in an ideal world, you have the most serious case first with the strongest evidence i fully believe that the manhattan d.a. needs to operate on the timetable of, when do you have the evidence? is the evidence sufficient to indict if it is, you move forward that determines the timing that appears to be what's taking place here >> has this criminal allegation, this indictment become too political? donald trump is raising a

million dollars or more just on the threat of the indictment a large number of politicians are doing that you are a fund-raising on it >> look, i think that is going to be certainly a political issue in terms of defending the rule of law on the one side and in terms of, i think, subverting rule of law on the other the most important point for me is that this is an affirmation of the fact that no one should be above the law, that we all are held to account. this is someone who escaped accountability for years and years. i'm going to speak out on it other people are going to speak out on it. i'm going to push back against what kevin mccarthy and jim jordan are trying to do by running interference and trying to stop or impede or discuss k - or discredit this investigation.

>> congressman adam schiff, thank you very much. >> thank you more of our breaking news coverage coming up, including how the trump legal team was caught off guard by yesterday's indictment the latest from mar-a-lago next on this special edition. you are watching "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc u just your heroes. the subway series. the greatest menu of all time. you're doing business in an app driven, multi-cloud world. that's why you choose vmware. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you keep your cloud options open. and this is ready to go online! any questions? and yeah, i got one:ol, how about the best network imaginable? let's invent that! that's what we do here. quick survey. who wants their internet

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former president trump was reportedly caught off guard when the indictment was handed up next t"the washington post" reportin it was weeks away. trump's attorney was asked about trump's reaction on "today" by savannah >> he initially was shocked. after he got over that, he put a

notch on his belt and he decided, we have to fight now. he got into a typical donald trump posture where he is ready to be combative on something that he believes is an injustice. his knees don't buckle i think he is in the posture that he is ready to fight this >> joining me now are dasha burns, ashley parker and jonathan lemire. ashley, you report that team trump was caught off guard there had been reports that the grand jury was going off for a month. tell us more >> that's right. it was a remarkable turnabout from just about two saturdays ago when trump tweeted he was going to be arrested on tuesday. it turned out, he had no real evidence or reason to believe that that was incorrect

in that time, he had grown optimistic and was in good spirits. his team told him that any indictment that was coming was a ways off some people were telling him it might not happen at all. members of his legal team sort of were so confident that something was not coming in the immediate future that they were preparing to take time off trump, as we reported, was kind of joking about golden handcuffs. this was not something they were expecting to happen. when it did on thursday, they were initially shocked that was absolutely their first reaction trump, for his good mood in the recent week, we talked to a top advisor who said he was angry and irritated and deflated, which is what you might expect if you are the first former president to be indicted >> dasha, how is the former

president reacting today to this indictment now that it's a reality? >> i think i counted 18 posts that were clips from fox news, from news max, of allies and various hosts defending the former president just recently, he also went after the judge -- the new york judge that's expected to preside over his arraignment saying that, quote, the judge assigned to my witch hunt case, a case never charged before, hates me that is a posture that has been expected to come from the former president. this is the kind of line of attack he has been taking, going after the d.a., now going after the judge here andrea, we can't forget, because mr. trump has not forgotten, that while this is significant because it's the first time a

former president has been indicted, it is also the first time that a current candidate has been indicted. that 2024 presidential election backdrop cannot be ignored this is very much now part of the strategy his legal team and his staff, his campaign team have a strategy for this indictment, they say they also have a strategy for how to use this for his campaign for the primary as well as for the general election you can already see him rallying the troops around him, both in terms of his allies -- you have seen folks in congress reacting to this, various operatives. also voters and his grass-roots folks across the country we have seen several fund-raising emails coming out using this as a moment to raise money, to get support, to engage people right now we were just over at mar-a-lago, there are protesters there overnight, they are there again this morning they are saying that we wanted

to come here folks decided to take time out of their day to defend the man that they say is being unfairly persecuted this is going to take the oxygen out of any campaign season if there were going to be one over the next several months. >> it certainly makes it difficult to contemplate a normal campaign at this point. jonathan, you write the same forces that made trump, just got him indicted the charges that have yet to be unsealed are out of the pages of new york tabloids in the 1980s talk to us about that. >> sure. donald trump is very much a creature of new york city and its tabloids someone who decided that fame would be his best currency as he started in real estate trying to become a developer and a celebrity one at that. he would act as his own spokesman. he would adopt a fake name and call in and plant gossip items,

whether about who he is daying or some deal he was brokering, thinking that if he portrayed his own life to be as glamorous as possible, others would want to emulate it and buy his property so they could live like trump. using michael cohen and others to use money to make the bad stories go away. that's what happened here. his need for celebrity, his need for attention is what tripped him up in this particular indictment it's fitting as someone who now is a florida resident and lived four years in washington, d.c. and wants to go back there, he is still very much a new yorker. this is not as serious as others that may come down the road, whether it's from george george from georgia or others this will always be first and historic

>> the irony is it's the celebrity and other people wanting to be like him and to aspire to his wealth that helped him get elected in 2016. he stood out from the other candidates he was a showman and a tabloid expert from new york as you point out, it's now bringing him down. thanks to all of you straight ahead, the court date how the secret service, nypd and others are preparing for something our country has never seen before. the booking process for a former president. you are watching "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc

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power e*trade's easy-to-use tools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans help you find new trading opportunities. while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. congresswoman marjorie taylor greene is trying to rally supporters to travel to new york next week and join her in protesting donald trump's indictment when he surrenders. law enforcement officials are more than ready. all new york police officers are fully uniformed starting today after 9/11, the city created the largest intelligence unit along with backup from the fbi and secret service all hands on deck. joining us now, frank figliuzzi,

and former nypd commissioner bill bratton he is the author of "the profession, a memoir of policing in america." frank, we now have at least one congressional ally calling for protests what concerns do you have for tuesday? >> well, the good news is that i can't think of a more prepared city from a law enforcement perspective to deal with this from intelligence collection to very specific site security. everybody is on the same team and the same sheet of music. but we are monitoring -- everyone is monitor, particularly fdibi affi and dhs. this indictment is all part of the plan the great awakening is about to happen stay tuned all of this is going to play out, et cetera

we will see the possibility of trump showing up as his lawyer claims on tuesday and trying to incite either partially or through his cohorts some kind of protest that is legal but could turn violent i'm told by law enforcement sources that all contingencies are being planned for, even those remote the possibility the judge could order trump to stay in new york and not leave out of fear that ron desantis, has said, he won't support an extradition if that happens, the concern is that trump tower could become the focus of protests. another possibility is that at some time later trump refuses to leave florida or next week refuses to leave and some kind of fugitive warrant has to be issued very unlikely. the possibility is being considered even by secret service that u.s. marshalls could have to act on a warrant out of new york city

intelligence, physical security, best city in america to deal with it. >> commissioner, if you were the commissioner what would your team be doing today? >> what's been described you are not going to see what's happening. most of what's happening is happening behind the scenes. the secret service, nypd, port officials and members of the d.a.'s office are doing simulations of what will happen with mr. trump that's happening the nypd similarly, its huge cohort of intelligence officials working with the 50 some odd centers around the country, working with the 75 major city chief intelligence officers around the country will be scanning social media, activity that might be related to this event. what they are concerned with is not so much what they know but what they don't know, what they might be missing

there's going to be a full-court effort, a collaborative effort they will be prepared for this there's no better city for this event to happen than new york city they have more officers on duty than most police departments have in their whole police force. new york will be able to handle this potential lone wolf, the unknown, that person not on chatter, that's not saying what they're going to do. the dark web activity. >> frank, it occurred to me if he decided to not come back to new york or do this or whatever, the secret service are there to protect him. what is their primary duty what if he were to come in conflict with a court order, for

instance >> my sources tell me they will, of course, facilitate compliance with legal process they are not going to get in the way of that. absolutely, their primary duty is the physical security of the former president they have a robust intelligence gathering apparatus around trying to figure out what the threat is. they will protect him. they will not protect him against or defend him against lawful, legal process. they will comply with it >> frank, bill, thanks to both of you the 2024 republican candidates declare and likely are rushing to donald trump's defense, all of them so far. nikki haley saying the indictment is about revenge, not justice. governor desantis says it's unamerican and that as we pointed out florida will not assist with an extradition if for some reason trump doesn't want to go voluntarily that's not the case as far as we are told by his lawyers.

former vice president mike pence calling it political prosecution. >> let me just say, i think the unprecedented indictment of a former president of the united states for campaign finance issues is an outrage joining me now is yamiche alcindor, former democratic congresswoman donna edwards and charlie sykes. charlie, your reaction to desantis and now mike pence, the way he is calling it an outrage. >> it's interesting that ron desantis managed to make himself look weak, hypocritical and legally clueless all at the same time by suggesting he would not cooperate with the extradition under the constitution he has no ability to do that it was a signal that he is willing to do or say anything to pander to the trumpian base. that's not the way any of the candidates are going to displace donald trump

it's fascinating, as you listen to all of them on earth 2.0, the rational, sane alternative universe, this is an opportunity for republicans to distance themselves from the disgraced twice impeached now indicted ex-president. instead, they are hugging him as closely as possible, which is why in the short term this is going to benefit donald trump in the republican primary long term, i think it's disastrous for the republican party. they will have to do this with this indictment. they will have to do the same thing if indict mments come dow in georgia or if the department of justice indicts him >> donald trump is reaching out to his allies on capitol hill. one of them, senator lindsey graham, suggesting donald trump smash windows, rob shops and punch cops on his way to the d.a.'s office on tuesday i think that senator graham is joking

raising money for trump last night on fox news. >> this case will fall like a cheap suit under legal skcrutin. vote donaldjtrump.com. give him money so he can fight >> donna, he is a lawyer, a former jag officer >> yeah. it's hard to know how to respond to lindsey graham. frankly, republicans have had so many opportunities to walk away from donald trump, and they have chosen instead now to rally behind him again it elevates him with the base. it solidifies the base it doesn't distinguish any of those candidates or any of the elected officials from donald trump. i think trump has gotten just what he wanted and needed, which

is to solidify the republican base behind him. unfortunately, the legal process is going to take over, and it's not subject to the lindsey grahams or public statements of donald trump or any of his allies it will proceed. we look historically at this moment, for me, it's like looking back at my childhood with a watergate moment with -- >> yamiche, you are on the national mall in washington. it's cherry blossom time a great time to be out on the mall and getting reaction from visitors and voters. who are people saying? >> that's right. it's beautiful out here. we have been talking to folks about what is this polarizing issue of whether or not americans agree with the indictment it comes down to the way people see their political affiliation is the way they see that this prosecution will go.

we have been talking to people in d.c we have been talking to people in new york and california listen to what we are hearing. how do you think this compares to what the other possible legal problems that he has >> this is nothing everything else, inciting a riot, i mean, that would take the cake this is nothing i think compared to all that. >> i'm very upset with bragg he needs to resign >> it's stupid it's going to not get anywhere it will come back to be bad on the democrats. >> i should tell you, if you are a democrat, who i have been talking to, you are -- one man told me ecstatic but also in some ways i have been hearing people worried about whether this was the case to move forward and whether it might muddy the waters for the other legal problems donald trump has. if you are a republican, you are sticking by president trump. you were talking about vice president mike pence, but there

are a lot of republican voters saying it's a political prosecution. one thing to note here, 62 % of americans say they think this is motivated by politics. that's 62% overall 93% of republicans think that. they think it's motivated by politics something like 66% of democrats say this is motivated by law it tells you the political breakdown when you look at the numbers and talk to people which is key here because former president trump is not only indicted but also running for re-election. >> yamiche, donna and charlie, thanks to all. up next, testing the american legal system. the trump indictments reinforcing the bedrock our judicial system that no one is above the law. you are watching a special edition of "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc. and enterprise control, vmware helps you innovate and grow.

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barbara mcquad and michael beschloss. this indictment indicates no one is above the law it could take a long time to play out right? >> i think both of those things are true some of the things we are hearing from trump supporters is this is unamerican, it's outrageous you haven't seen the charges yet. what they are saying is that a president is above the law and it's outrageous to charge him with anything you can imagine. i think they need to withhold their judgement. as to your question about it's likely to take a long time to play out, i think it's yes as we have seen, the best defense is a good offense. a go offense. i'm sure he will file every motion you have ever heard of and some we haven't to try to knock this case out legally. he will delay and drag it out, but eventually i think we'll see

this case come to trial and he is headed to the presumption of innocence and due process and the jury will have to decide if the case can be proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. >> michael, it's far too soon, of course with just how history is going to view this moment has it already changed our tendency to put presidents and former presidents on a pedestal? >> i sure hope so. i just think that president s have been in this exalted state that the founders never imagined you know, the founders were pretty tough people who had a pretty grim view of human nature, and they always assumed that someone could be elected to the presidency or another office who would not be someone of good character. they did the best they could to provide constraints. they hoped that every president would be of some of the character qualities of george washington, but they knew that that was not going to last forever, and the biggest case of

this was richard nixon in 1974 once he was out of office, the special prosecutor, leon jaworski was very intent on indicting him for some of the same things that sent people like haldeman and erlichman to prison and gerald ford said the united states could not tolerate the idea of a president going to trial. that should have never happened. it encourages lawlessness in presidents so now the problem is now that to my mind that needless restriction against indicting former presidents is gone, you've got trump supporters saying, you know, let's go out in the street. some of them are threatening violence some are threatening intimidation of the judge or jurors or other people in the legal process. that, you know, desantis used the word un-american yesterday that would be the most un-american thing of all.

>> there have been complaints that the prosecutor, that any prosecutor would charge a president, a former president as being political, as being a bully. you know, how do you get around that kind of political smear, you know, against an elected d.a. who says he's following the law and the facts? >> ultimately the real test is not in the court of public opinion, not in the media. it is in a court of law where a jury will go through a very rigorous process and make a decision whether this case can be proved. you know, in law school, we like to take hypotheticals to try to demonstrate the fallacy of logic. if they say it is outrageous or un-american to charge a president, it must be politically biased if there is a charge against a president, then does that mean he can commit any crime with impunity? can he literally shoot someone on 5th avenue without facing

criminal charges and the answer to that is of course no. we need to see this case for what it is it is the jury who will make that decision. >> michael, going back to the nixon pardon, we both talked to gerald ford about this you did a formal interview with him, you know, for historical perspective. talk to us about why he believed at the end of his life that he did the right thing? >> well, he felt and, as you know, you heard him on this subject as well, you know, he'd carry in his wallet the card which referred to the case of the united states versus burdict 1915 saying when you accept a pardon, you accept guilt if he felt that that essentially was enough to show people nixon had done the wrong thing and i was slightly rude with him, although i admire him very much this was in his house in colorado in beaver creek, and i said, well, what about those who would say why didn't you at

least let the process go ahead so that there could be a mug shot and nixon could be fingerprinted, and he would have a harder time in the future arguing, as nixon did for the next 20 years, i didn't do much that other presidents have not done i was railroaded i was treated unfairly, and ford -- and i respect his point of view -- felt that the american people just would not tolerate the idea of a pre president, i think given what we've seen with donald trump, that has to bow to constraints against a lawless president. we now are confronted with a president, donald trump, who seems to have done possibly lawless things before he became president, which is what we're talking about now, while he was president instituted, encouraged an insurrection that almost took down our democracy after he was president in terms of what he did with classified documents and other things as well the only way that you can stop

people from doing such things is for there to be a penalty, and if there's no penalty, this is going to happen again and our democracy might be taken down by some future president. >> this is going to become, to both of you, this is going to become such a part of history forever more, our legal history as well as what we all study in school >> absolutely. this will be a case we read about in the history books let's remember, we're watching it unfold, and there's a lot left before the story is finished we are going to learn about what happened in georgia with the fani willis investigation. we may get charges federally fo the january 6th involvement and for the documents. and so before this chapter of history is written, i think t there's a lot more to come >> thanks both of you for your perspective today. it's so important, and that does it for this edition on an

historic day, "andrea mitchell reports" on the indictment of donald trump remember follow the show online, on facebook, and twi twitter @mitchell reports. "chris jansing reports" starts "chris jansing reports" starts right after first, there's an idea and you do something about it for the first time with godaddy. then before you know it, (it is a life changer...) you make your first sale. small business first. never stopped coming. (we did it!) and you have a partner that always puts you first way. (no way!) start today at godaddy.com. i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. (no way!) ♪ things are looking up ♪ ♪ i've got symptom relief ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪

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good day, i'm chris jansing live at msnbc headquarters in new york city. today american democracy is in completely new territory, and the american legal system is